http://games.slashdot.org/games/04/06/30/1558238.shtml?tid=127&tid=186&tid=98&tid=99
Expect the deadlines for games to go up from here on out.
Expect the deadlines for games to go up from here on out.
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Programmer sues Vivendi Universal for slave labor.
- Thread starter Matlock
- Start date
adrockthekid
Member
Funny, I've heard nothing but love for VU from their developers...
lochnesssnowman
Member
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lochnesssnowman said:
I'm sorry but I don't see why I should GIVE my time, If I have a job that says 40 hours a week, then everything made ABOVE that SHOULD be paid. I'm no Mother Theresa, I don't see why I should let them get away with it.
In my profession (I am an Oracle IT) compagnies used to never pay overtime, they learned since then that by paying them, projects advance a lot faster, people are more motivated because they know they'Re not working for nothing
lochnesssnowman said:
If what the guy says is true then he has EVERY right to sue. I think we all get tired of the frivelous lawsuits, but if you actually read that article and feel this guy is just being a whiner.
His claims, if founded would be BLATANT acts of breaking the law. Not paying for Overtime? Forcing workers to change their time cards, so they show only 8 hours worked? If you are looking for this kind of work out of your employee's they should be put on a salaried job. Then the employee signs a document agreeing to working terms + Salary rendered.
As far as I know the only thing you can sue for under a signed salaried agreement is if they have you work so many hours in a week that your overall pay/hr goes below minimum wage.
D
Deleted member 284
Unconfirmed Member
lochnesssnowman said:
Do you even have a salaried job?
lochnesssnowman
Member
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TheUnknownForce
Member
Geez. I never knew that most companies push people to finish a game like that. Part of me wants to give Rare more respect as they probably don't push programmers and such as much as VU and such, but then aagin, they might do the exact same thing. Look at the linked article in the article. In a poll, 51% developers don't plan to be in the industry in 10 years. That's sad. Could a downfall of the industry be coming?
Chopin Trusty Balls
First casualty in the war on idioticy.
I ve heard stories of people basicly living in the office for weeks before game is going gold,not VU just general.
lochnesssnowman
Member
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adrockthekid
Member
Well said. I agree.Slo said:
Also, AFAIK every single dev studio works crazy hours to meet milestones, smash bugs, and hit release dates. Every single one. Shit, I'm in the media and we work our asses off to make deadlines. But then, for instance, everybody gets two weeks off at christmas to make up for the stupid hours we put in over the holidays. And we all love the job, so it works out.
Now, if this guy is working in an undermanned studio and getting assfucked for not making milestones that were unrealistic in the first place, that's something else. Although I don't know that he's really got any legal recourse. If he's got talent, he shouldn't have any problems leaving VU and finding work elsewhere...I'm sure Reflections could use some people who know what the fuck they're doing
lochnesssnowman
Member
adrockthekid said:Well said. I agree.
Also, AFAIK every single dev studio works crazy hours to meet milestones, smash bugs, and hit release dates. Every single one. Shit, I'm in the media and we work our asses off to make deadlines. But then, for instance, everybody gets two weeks off at christmas to make up for the stupid hours we put in over the holidays. And we all love the job, so it works out.
Now, if this guy is working in an undermanned studio and getting assfucked for not making milestones that were unrealistic in the first place, that's something else. Although I don't know that he's really got any legal recourse. If he's got talent, he shouldn't have any problems leaving VU and finding work elsewhere...I'm sure Reflections could use some people who know what the fuck they're doing
This guy says what I wanted to say much better than I did
I think most people will work some overpaid overtime in a job. The question is how much is too much? I think most people won't mind working overtime from time to time and if it's infrequent enough, the company probably won't mind paying for it. However, if working overtime is the norm, something is going wrong. Probably management, and it's not the employee's fault. They have every right to kick up a fuss about it.
Developer's aren't there just to make games for you - they have their own lives as well, friends and families to attend to. People get taken advantage of in this industry. I think most people are when they start work but you get to a point when you realise you're not doing that for the rest of your life. I don't know how possible it is to work mostly regular hours in the games industry. From the people that I know who do work in it, it doesn't sound too likely, I know people consistently working 6 day weeks and long long days. The industry needs more realistic deadlines.
Developer's aren't there just to make games for you - they have their own lives as well, friends and families to attend to. People get taken advantage of in this industry. I think most people are when they start work but you get to a point when you realise you're not doing that for the rest of your life. I don't know how possible it is to work mostly regular hours in the games industry. From the people that I know who do work in it, it doesn't sound too likely, I know people consistently working 6 day weeks and long long days. The industry needs more realistic deadlines.
While that's all well and good, I'm sure most game devs could get a hefty raise and a more friendly work schedule if they'd just take a job at a database company instead. The gaming industry is unique because so many people want those jobs, the power definetly is in the hands of the employer.
Tortfeasor
Member
Having worked in the game industry, I can tell you this type of employee abuse is everywhere. Many companies try to get around it by offering flex time, but in the end you still pressure your staff to stay all hours. There were times on projects that the staff literally stayed overnight just breaking to slee a few hours on the floor of the confrence room. People get promised royalty payments as compensation, but NOBODY every really gets a royalty payment unless you happen to have GTA on your hands. And even then you are more then likely to be canned after the project ends and never see a dime anyway.
It is a sweatshop, and it is illegal. Not every company works that way, but many still do.
It is a sweatshop, and it is illegal. Not every company works that way, but many still do.
TheGreenGiant
Banned
FUCKING KUDOS TO THE PROGRAMMER. ABOUT FUCKING TIME SOMEONE STOOD UP TO THIS INDUSTRY THAT EXPECTS SLAVE LABORING AND NO PAY! FUCK THE NAYSAYERS.. YOU OBVIOUSLY DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT TIME = MONEY and not getting paid IS slave laboring.
+10000000 programmer
+10000000 programmer
Tortfeasor
Member
B E N K E said:
Since this industry is so small, getting fired in general (as opposed to being laid off) is a sure way to make sure you never have a job in the industry again. He might as well sue and go after his $$. If he wins he will be famous and will be able to get a job at a progressive dev house.
The Promised One
Banned
Honestly, I believe this guy. I've known several programmers, and all of them have complained of crap like this. Frankly, I hope a slew of companies get it in the ass for this, even if it affects game releases.
MrPing1000
Member
This can only be a good thing, maybe game quality will go up *crosses fingers*
Necroscope
Member
lochnesssnowman said:
I think you haven't work on a game development team before.
Tortfeasor
Member
lochnesssnowman said:
By the way... The funny thing about this story is that working in the game industry as a producer has inspired me to become a lawyer. I am currently in my 2nd year of law school after 10 years in the industry!
Disclaimer: I program, but not in the games industry.
I'm salaried, but I'm pseudo-hourly. That is, I get paid for the number of hours that I work, but I don't get time and a half, or double time or whatever for OT, because I can choose to do overtime. When it's busy, I do it. When it's slow, I don't. Some of my colleagues work 60 hrs a week, but I work closer to 40. It isn't because I'm slack - it's that if you're actually programming for 60 hours a week for more than a few weeks in a row, your brain is probably mush, and you'd likely get more done if you only worked 40. Hell, you'd probably be better just taking a month off, since in my experience, the 10% of the code written during crunch time produces 90% of the bugs.
I'm salaried, but I'm pseudo-hourly. That is, I get paid for the number of hours that I work, but I don't get time and a half, or double time or whatever for OT, because I can choose to do overtime. When it's busy, I do it. When it's slow, I don't. Some of my colleagues work 60 hrs a week, but I work closer to 40. It isn't because I'm slack - it's that if you're actually programming for 60 hours a week for more than a few weeks in a row, your brain is probably mush, and you'd likely get more done if you only worked 40. Hell, you'd probably be better just taking a month off, since in my experience, the 10% of the code written during crunch time produces 90% of the bugs.
Justin Bailey
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Interesting replies on the "Quality of Life" topic that was posted in that little blurb
http://games.slashdot.org/games/04/05/04/2355241.shtml?tid=127
http://games.slashdot.org/games/04/05/04/2355241.shtml?tid=127
Scalemail Ted
Member
I should sue VU for selling me the equivalent of crack cocaine which is Diablo 2.
And once I kicked the habit *BAM* expansion pack.
And once I kicked the habit *BAM* expansion pack.
Duckhuntdog
Member
fart said:
You want to see the industry crash? Wait till they start unions.
Ferrarisimo
Member
Duckhuntdog said:
Wise words. Yes, companies should be responsible with assigning crunch hours (and they are becoming moreso), but organized labor and unions only reward the mediocre, stifle creativity and ambition, and would bring this industry to its knees.