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Programming |OT| C is better than C++! No, C++ is better than C
- Thread starter Kikarian
- Start date
Some other advice:
- Unless you're using IE at this point I'd get into the practice of using "let" and "const" instead of "var". "Var" behaves in weird ways (look up "variable hoisting" for more), "let" works like you probably expect, "const" of course can't be changed once set.
- Your loop is from 0 to 5 but what you really want is from 0 to bTypes.length.
- Even better, you can do bTypes.forEach(function(bType){ ... }).
You can technically have multiple text nodes on an element (some artifact of the way the DOM was designed). textContent will get you the content of all of them combined or if set will wipe all of them and set just one: https://jsfiddle.net/v0vxgd39/
CornBurrito
Member
Ah thanks.
I'll ask my professor about using let/const instead of var. Dunno if they use some auto grading thing or what.
Also is there any real problem with looping to 5 if I know I'll be looping that many times? Or is it just bad to get into those sorts of habits?
https://twitter.com/tom7/status/752249842374733825
How does this happen?
Code:
#javascript truly is the world's most beautiful language
null >= 0
→ true
null > 0
→ false
null == 0
→ falseHow does this happen?
Habitual. If you change the array (add a new button) then you have to make sure you change the number otherwise you'll get a bug. Here you'd likely notice immediately, in other situation maybe not.
https://tc39.github.io/ecma262/#sec-abstract-relational-comparison. For relational operators the operands are converted to primitives which has the effect of treating null (and most other things) like 0 (I guess the idea was so you have something that can compare but nobody really thought about the cases outside number and string), for equality this doesn't happen because you really don't want null to equal 0.
I'm currently looking for a job again, and now I have to make a hard decision.
Yesterday, I had an interview at company A. It went well, and shortly after I received their decision: They would like to hire me.
It's a small consulting firm specialized in developing software for insurance companies. The atmosphere is very, very personal and friendly. Employees enjoy a lot of flexibility regarding work time or vacation. They're also paying well. There's also a few perks, but just a few. Nothing amazing. It sounded like a nice place to work at.
However, on the downside: Most of the time they're working on their core product, which is some kind of enterprise web application for insurances. It sounded so unbelievably boring. I had to suppress countless yawns while they explained the functionality, and I can barely remember anything. I really couldn't care less about this sort of thing.
In terms of technologies, they're only using a standard Java Enterprise stack. I'm fine with that, but I would have appreciated the possibility of expanding my knowledge to other technologies, which I won't be able to do there.
In short: The pay's fine, the people are nice, their work time policies are perfect for me as I'm still studying, but the job is going to be incredibly boring, maybe even mind-numbing. Hardly any career or advanced training options.
Last week, I applied at company B. And B is simply amazing.
In terms of employee count, it's way bigger than A, but they nonetheless have some kind of startup vibe. Young, dynamic/agile, enthusiastic, skilled people full of bright ideas. Again, a very personal culture. Truckloads of perks. Many, many learning opportunities. Flexible work times. Many team events (barbecues, cinema, sports, ...).
In fact, in the last three years, they won a prestigious "Most Popular Employer [of the country]" award.
In terms of technology, they too are focused on Java, but they also use a lot of other extremely interesting stuff. I'd love to learn so much of it. Their set of preferred tools and technologies is seriously attractive. And their project portfolio is very diverse, too.
I want that job so badly. However, as you might expect, they're looking for seriously talented people. And I don't think I qualify. The company is also known for holding popular programming contests, and finishing one of their tests is part of the application process. They have a bunch of example tests of varying lengths and difficulties on their site. I tried some of them. They're really tricky.
---------------
So, here's my dilemma. The recruiter of company B is on holiday right now, and she's gonna return next Monday. Then, I will have to pass a programming test, and afterwards there's of course the actual interview. So I assume it's gonna take about two weeks from today until I receive their decision, whether positive or not. Though I kind of expect to be rejected. I'm no amateur, but I don't think I meet their expectations. And I'm bad at presenting myself in interviews.
As I mentioned above, company A is willing to hire me. They're just waiting for my answer. But obviously, I'm not the only applicant. So it's quite possible the job might be gone in two weeks.
Do I pick the dull, uninteresting job at the cool company A right now? Or do I risk that job for a presumably low chance of an amazing job at the incredible company B?
The wise decision is obviously company A, but, Jesus... B sounds so unbelievably great. Damn.
Yesterday, I had an interview at company A. It went well, and shortly after I received their decision: They would like to hire me.
It's a small consulting firm specialized in developing software for insurance companies. The atmosphere is very, very personal and friendly. Employees enjoy a lot of flexibility regarding work time or vacation. They're also paying well. There's also a few perks, but just a few. Nothing amazing. It sounded like a nice place to work at.
However, on the downside: Most of the time they're working on their core product, which is some kind of enterprise web application for insurances. It sounded so unbelievably boring. I had to suppress countless yawns while they explained the functionality, and I can barely remember anything. I really couldn't care less about this sort of thing.
In terms of technologies, they're only using a standard Java Enterprise stack. I'm fine with that, but I would have appreciated the possibility of expanding my knowledge to other technologies, which I won't be able to do there.
In short: The pay's fine, the people are nice, their work time policies are perfect for me as I'm still studying, but the job is going to be incredibly boring, maybe even mind-numbing. Hardly any career or advanced training options.
Last week, I applied at company B. And B is simply amazing.
In terms of employee count, it's way bigger than A, but they nonetheless have some kind of startup vibe. Young, dynamic/agile, enthusiastic, skilled people full of bright ideas. Again, a very personal culture. Truckloads of perks. Many, many learning opportunities. Flexible work times. Many team events (barbecues, cinema, sports, ...).
In fact, in the last three years, they won a prestigious "Most Popular Employer [of the country]" award.
In terms of technology, they too are focused on Java, but they also use a lot of other extremely interesting stuff. I'd love to learn so much of it. Their set of preferred tools and technologies is seriously attractive. And their project portfolio is very diverse, too.
I want that job so badly. However, as you might expect, they're looking for seriously talented people. And I don't think I qualify. The company is also known for holding popular programming contests, and finishing one of their tests is part of the application process. They have a bunch of example tests of varying lengths and difficulties on their site. I tried some of them. They're really tricky.
---------------
So, here's my dilemma. The recruiter of company B is on holiday right now, and she's gonna return next Monday. Then, I will have to pass a programming test, and afterwards there's of course the actual interview. So I assume it's gonna take about two weeks from today until I receive their decision, whether positive or not. Though I kind of expect to be rejected. I'm no amateur, but I don't think I meet their expectations. And I'm bad at presenting myself in interviews.
As I mentioned above, company A is willing to hire me. They're just waiting for my answer. But obviously, I'm not the only applicant. So it's quite possible the job might be gone in two weeks.
Do I pick the dull, uninteresting job at the cool company A right now? Or do I risk that job for a presumably low chance of an amazing job at the incredible company B?
The wise decision is obviously company A, but, Jesus... B sounds so unbelievably great. Damn.
PetriP-TNT
Member
All depends on how far you are willing to risk it.
You could just take the A job and jump to B when you land it. Might or might not be possible depending on your contract. Might look bad for future employers though, but most likely not.
You could accept the A job and try to push back the date as far as you can and then calling it quits ASAP you land the job B. A might not be willing to push back and you might lose the job anyway. Or you could call them and ask if you could think about this for two weeks. A might see you hesitating and might want to push up your benefits. Or they might just drop you.
You could take the A job and try to make best of the situation. Maybe they are incredibly bored of their product too.
Or you could just not take the A job and hope for the best a B. You really don't want to do that, trust me. Unless you have savings in line, in which case just go for it.
B just sounds incredibly risky, but then again there's nothing better than working at the place of your dreams, which I always think is worth going for. There's always another crappier job available for you if you don't manage to land that one yet.
Edit : damn, can't read this morning, I missed Somnid answer. Well...
When you use x <= y and other comparison, JS perform a type coertition (first ToPrimitive() with hint Number, then possibly ToNumber). When doing type coertion, Null is converted to +0
http://interglacial.com/javascript_spec/a-11.html#a-11.8.5
You also have null <= 0 which is True, btw.
But when you're doing x == 0, no type coertion is done, and all the tests fail:
http://interglacial.com/javascript_spec/a-11.html#a-11.9.3
If it's how like "why they designed it that way", I have no clue.
There's reasons I ran away from JS long ago...
How, like "for what reason"?
When you use x <= y and other comparison, JS perform a type coertition (first ToPrimitive() with hint Number, then possibly ToNumber). When doing type coertion, Null is converted to +0
http://interglacial.com/javascript_spec/a-11.html#a-11.8.5
You also have null <= 0 which is True, btw.
But when you're doing x == 0, no type coertion is done, and all the tests fail:
http://interglacial.com/javascript_spec/a-11.html#a-11.9.3
If it's how like "why they designed it that way", I have no clue.
There's reasons I ran away from JS long ago...
Wasn't aware of this subreddit. Thanks, I'm gonna post it there.
Are you in a similar situation?
If B would hire me, I would very likely learn of their decision this month. So in that case, I would have to work at A in August and switch to B in September. That's an option, but I'd feel like a jerk, to be honest. Still, it's worth considering.
The date of signing the contract, you mean? I'm not sure how far I could push it back. Of course, they'd rather have it signed sooner than later.
I can't recall the exact phrasing, but they said something like "It's fine if you want to think about it for a week or so". Two weeks would be perfect, I think, but it might be pushing it. Damn.
However, I was planning to spend a few days on the countryside next week. So even if I accepted the job next week, I would only be able to sign the contract the week after. Hm. This could work, I think.
I doubt it. That's all they ever did since they were founded over then years ago, and the guy I talked with - one of the founders and executives - sounded really enthusiastic about it.
Ah yes, savings. That's another factor I should have mentioned. My savings are indeed shrinking. I don't have to starve yet, but I already have to think twice before buying a new game.
A is the safest choice indeed. B is a gamble I should not take, but the potential winnings are huge.
I'm not, but I will be starting my fifth and last year in school this fall and questions like these are interesting to me.
CornBurrito
Member
See this is the subreddit that I hate.
Every fucking thread: "Oh you want an internship as a student? I hope you have a very impressive resume with a bunch of impressive personal projects"
Interns see themselves are worthless programmers but companies actually see interns as incredibly cheap labor. If you show them you can write a program they will hire you.
CornBurrito
Member
Right, but the loudest group of people in that subreddit make it sound like to even have a company look at you you need to be some coding guru who has been coding for fun ever since you were seven years old.
Okay, here's the plan.
As mentioned above, they said it was fine if I wanted to think about it "for a week or so". I'm going to make use of this offer, and I'm going to tell them about it. Tomorrow. That way, I'm confident that they will consider me to be first in line until next Thursday. I mean, it was them that offered me to take some time to think about it.
By Thursday, I will already be in touch with company B again. (Remember: Their recruiter returns from holiday on Monday). While doubtful, it's theoretically possible that I may already have had my interview with them by then.
I might be in the countryside on Thursday. So, in the case I don't know the decision from B yet, I'll accept A's offer and tell them that I will sign the contract when I'm back the week after. This gives me a few more days to wait for B's answer.
Oh, I see. I'm gonna keep you updated.
As mentioned above, they said it was fine if I wanted to think about it "for a week or so". I'm going to make use of this offer, and I'm going to tell them about it. Tomorrow. That way, I'm confident that they will consider me to be first in line until next Thursday. I mean, it was them that offered me to take some time to think about it.
By Thursday, I will already be in touch with company B again. (Remember: Their recruiter returns from holiday on Monday). While doubtful, it's theoretically possible that I may already have had my interview with them by then.
I might be in the countryside on Thursday. So, in the case I don't know the decision from B yet, I'll accept A's offer and tell them that I will sign the contract when I'm back the week after. This gives me a few more days to wait for B's answer.
Oh, I see. I'm gonna keep you updated.
Well, there's people that started later than that? ^_^
More seriously, I'd be curious to know whether more or less people start coding at 6-8 y.o. now than 30 years ago. When you had a computer in the 80s, programming was quite natural (plently of games were "distributed" on paper through books and magazines, and programming was directly available, since computers were little more than code editors, without GUI... in fact, 80% of the manual of my first computer was a Basic 1.0 reference manual. Also, there wasn't many interesting things to do with a computer).
Also, coding books for young children were common. After 1990, I've barely seen any coding book for ~7 y.o.
They're again more common now (mainly Python, and curiously I'd say, Javascript). Also, things like Arduino, Mindstorms and co help code entering schools... and governments are interested in coding now.
So, out of curiosity, how old were you when you started? Basic and Logo at 7 for me, ASM at 9, Pascal at 12 IIRC.
(I don't think that matter, although I think it's easier when you're young, like foreign languages. I'm just curious, barely any of my students have started young, when almost all of my friends interested in computers started before 10, and I've been wondering whether it's a )
It depends. If you want to work at a Microsoft, Amazon or Google you better be one of the better programmers they are going to see for that position. Luckily for those of us who don't aspire quite so high there are tens of thousands of other companies that need good programmers.
edit: and you never answered my other post. What type of SQL did you need help with?
My linear algebra teacher is teaching us stuff that he says has applications in things like signal processing, signal noise compression, quantum mechanics, etc. Frankly, a lot of this stuff is really confusing to me. I can post my test review material in a bit to show you what I mean. To what extent should I be familiar with linear algebra as a programmer it isn't working in a relatively math-heavy programming job?
CornBurrito
Member
Ah sorry, I never saw it.
I ended up figuring out the SQL thing on my own a bit later. Thanks though.
I started teaching myself Python via learnpythonthehardway about... 3ish years ago? Just for something to do during my senior year of college when I wasn't too busy.
cpp_is_king
Member
Personally my first introduction to programming was in 8th grade learning BASIC, so I guess about 13 years old. But I didn't really take an interest in it until about 11th grade, so maybe 16 years old.
I'd say it depends entirely on what you want to do. There are fields where advanced math is necessary (most research oriented fields, machine learning, computer vision, graphics programming, AI ...) and there are fields where you won't really be using it at all (webdev, enterprise programming ...). Basic vector and matrix operations pop up a lot though, but they are pretty easy to learn. There are definitely a lot of jobs out there where advanced math shouldn't be necessary.
Dunno about conventional programming but my old elementary school started introducing Code Monkey-like programming stuff into computers class as sort of intro to programming, I was really surprised with what the little kids were tackling, it's part of their homework and everything. It's been a couple of years now since they started doing it
Here's what we're practicing on our midterm test to give you an idea. Does this seem more advanced than a typical first Linear Algebra course?
Spoiled Milk
Banned
Yes, that seems like a typical first Linear Algebra course to me, although the test is written quite obtusely.
It's been a while since my Linear Algebra class, and I'm hardly an expert on how colleges from other countries teach things, but most of it seems pretty standard in theory. Maps, determining a vector space basis, vector subspaces, all the eigenvalue (and related) questions, GramSchmidt and kernels are all pretty basic LA concepts. The only thing I don't remember doing is CBS, although it's been a while so maybe I'm just forgetting.
The test does seem quite tricky though (as Kristoffer says, it's pretty obtuse). Out of curiosity, how much time do they give you for such a test?
We're given an hour and a half. I'm not complaining too much since his test is basically identical to the practice test, but with different values. So we get to essentially master the test before it.
The funny thing is that Math is really just ultra unintuitive programming. It's extremely abstract, terse and esoteric. Even if you don't feel super confident I'd be willing to bet if presented with similar problems in a programming context you'd be much more likely to understand what is going on and where you don't you could probably fill in the gaps by walking through it. At the very least programming has the nice effect of being able to seal away weird things into a black box, and you just need to consume it. You can always peek into the box to satisfy your curiosity but you don't need to become an expert unless you want to.
I'm suddenly really grateful my math courses had way more lenient time constraints (i think it was an hour for 5 questions, which was plenty of time).
I can definitely see why things would be confusing for you though. In my course most of the questions were relatively straightforward practical problems (like questions 6, 9 or 13 on your example) which could be solved with well defined procedures that were thought at the course. The more theoretical questions on your exam seem way more confusing then that, and the time limit isn't all that lenient either. It also covers a lot of concepts for a midterm imo.
Don't let it discourage you though. If you haven't done a lot of math before the college level stuff can be really hard to get at first. And I have to say that even in math heavy programming courses I took, a lot of this stuff never popped up. I certainly can't remember ever using vector space theory on anything.
Oh, I should have clarified. His real test isn't going to be 14 questions. These are simply a set of examples of questions that could be on the test. My university's math lab has been pretty essential for this course for me. I feel like I don't get a word that the professor says and the mentors in the Math Lab are able to break things down in a way that I understand much better. To be honest, I'm not sure how much of it I truly get because I feel like the professor keeps putting the theoretical cart in front of the horse. He really emphasizes teaching the theory behind this stuff, but we're all struggling just to get how this stuff works from a surface level.
JeTmAn81
Member
I feel like mathematics pedagogy and perhaps science in general could do itself a favor by dropping as much of the obscure terminology as possible. I fail to see how the use of Greek letters makes anything clearer for any student than just using plain descriptive English words. Weights instead of theta, change instead of delta, etc.
End-user language independence.
For sure. I think the main problems are just due to things that happen all the time in culture. People who do things repeatedly tend to use shortcuts or condense complex but still common ideas into something smaller, it's even worse when you need to write all that on a chalk board which I'd bet is half the reason it still happens. There's also that prestige factor, the sort of natural "I know something you don't" barrier that people put up to keep their clubs special.
cpp_is_king
Member
You've gotta have a common terminology, both spoken and written, so that people who don't speak the same language can understand the same papers and concepts. That's why math is sometimes called the "universal language", and that's exactly how it should be. Imagine if instead of writing "Let ε > 0" you had this instead
Teacher: ok everyone think of a number, but it has to be a really really small number, just a liiiiiiiiitle bit bigger than 0.
Student: What do you mean small? How small?
Teacher: FUCKING small.
I think the former is much more descriptive and easy to understand, especially considering you might see the same phrase many times in the same proof.
JeTmAn81
Member
Standard terminology is fine. Greek letters are a relic of the past. We shouldn't stick to the same traditions forever, should we? Imagine if we somehow still used the convention of adopting the shortest variable names possible.
Spoiled Milk
Banned
We use Greek letters instead of entire words because multiple letters in a row look like multiplication. Having concision in formula writing is very, very useful.
cpp_is_king
Member
Why not? It sounds like the argument to change pi into tau. Who cares? It's an abstract symbol that's been given a well defined meaning. What symbol it is doesn't matter, what matters is that you adopt a convention and stick to it. Changing centuries, hell even millenia of precedent just to be more futuristic like sounds a little extreme, don't you think? They're not that hard to learn. epsilon looks like a little e, delta looks like a curvy little d, lambda is an upside down y. Upper-case sigma is a big spikey E. I'm not sure what problem we're trying to solve.
This is circular. If you have a different system it's not necessarily bound by the limitations of the old system. Certain oddities of expression in one programming language don't necessarily appear in others for example. Math does have explicit operators so it's not a fundamental change anyway.
The problem is novice hostility and cognitive load (which can very easily turn into a means of oppression, especially passively). We can most definitely swap "Δ" with "change" and it doesn't make a difference to what you are doing but one is much more immediately understandable to someone who hasn't taken an upper-level math class. Even if you wanted to get into arguments of brevity 変 is more immediately understood by far more people than a Greek letter (western academic bias) but perhaps for inclusion you'd choose an emoji since they are the most universal language. But overall tradition has little basis without something more rigorous behind it, unless you can actually prove that one methodology is better than the other, that methodology should be challenged. It's natural to excuse away the faults of large systems with high investment, pretend they don't exists or claim "well not enough people have complained publicly" but this is not a great argument against alternatives.
Spoiled Milk
Banned
Show me the differential form of Maxwell's Equations using a different system that is nearly as concise and readable.
Or not, because this is way, way OT
How many greek letters are there that have a real definition and aren't consistently defined before usage? I don't think that is why people say math is confusing
One thing I don't get though is why high schools are teaching stuff like derivatives and integrals without ever touching the basics like very simple logic/discrete math. It's the foundation of everything and for me it made math click (it's also more universally useful than dang gosh integrals, where most of the difficulty is just familiarizing with spoon-fed formulas)
One thing I don't get though is why high schools are teaching stuff like derivatives and integrals without ever touching the basics like very simple logic/discrete math. It's the foundation of everything and for me it made math click (it's also more universally useful than dang gosh integrals, where most of the difficulty is just familiarizing with spoon-fed formulas)
cpp_is_king
Member
The argument against alternatives is that the benefits are immeasurably small and the cost is immeasurably high
Conciseness and learned readability aren't what we're getting at, it's instead optimizing for native understandability. I'd imagine most actual implementations are numerical estimations done using a programming language. How was it represented then and did you hate working with it? In the programming context we'd look at this and improve the language with feedback, why is math any different?
Seems more like an unsubstantiated assumption. The objective thing to do would be to test it which is what I'm suggesting we do but what we pretty much don't do despite people being science-minded. You need that human effort component because most people will fall into a sort of equilibrium.
JeTmAn81
Member
Pretty sure you just wrote the next XKCD comic right there.
cpp_is_king
Member
But why even bother testing it when anyone with the means to do so on a large enough scale would be better served solving important problems in their field of study? We can test what would happen if we started using the lunar calendar instead of the gregorian calendar too, but what exactly are we hoping to gain, aside from centuries of confusion going forward when trying to read any historical document ever.
What exactly is so broken about using Greek letters that it warrants invalidating thousands of years of mathematical literature? Because some undergraduates are confused? Come on.
wow I'm in the exact same situation heh
I've been in both environments already and I feel they both have their ups and downs, so its really a case by case thing, ideal jobs can be turned into boredom and the opposite can also happen. I guess at this point I've just become cynical of the whole thing, unless you are running it. This is like a call to just do it and do your startup but I don't feel my savings are enough to make such a risky move just yet.
I'm afraid I'm going to end up with the safe but unexciting option to be honest, I'm getting old
