Progressive Actually Worse?

P

Poody

What program do you use to photoshop a picture?
I just bought this tv
EC.SAM.TXP2675WHD.CN.JPG

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Sams.../sem/rpsm/oid/91175/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do

I noticed games like MGS3 using the component cables (Y Pb Pr LR) and turning on progressive scan with 19:6 ratio, the graphics actually look worse? I see more jaggies then ever and it looks worse then then regular AV cables. Can someone englighten me and tell me whats going on?
 
on a related note, what should people expect running 480i games on an HDTV?

How does an HDTV normally handle a 480i source, and what would be the difference on screen between say a 480i game that has been upconverted by the TV to 480p or 1080i and a game that natively supports 480p (and/or 1080i)?


I've always been confused by that.
 
on a related note, what should people expect running 480i games on an HDTV?
Click to expand...

A Fairly Blurry picture. most HDTV sets will upconvert 480i sources, essentially doubling each scan line and displaying it as a non interlaced image. It's similar to what a 'smoothed' game looks like when you emulate SNES on a pc.

A real true 480p image displays a full image 60 times a second. a 480i Image displays 60 half images a second (image one is odd numbered scanlines, image 2 is even numbered scanlines) and it flicks back and forth between the two 'half' images and makes it look like a full image.

480p just shows you the full image. Of course you have to render twice the data, which is why a lot of games and systems don't support it. All xbox games run in 480p but thats because the xbox does the line doubling on the graphics chip if the game doesn't really support it.
 
Poody said:
I noticed games like MGS3 using the component cables (Y Pb Pr LR) and turning on progressive scan with 19:6 ratio, the graphics actually look worse? I see more jaggies then ever and it looks worse then then regular AV cables. Can someone englighten me and tell me whats going on?
Click to expand...
Component cables are going to give you a more accurate representation of the video feed than s-video or composite cables. So, if the jaggies are in the frame, you're more likely to see them.

However, I believe many TVs are shipped from the factory with the "sharpness" set relatively high. The sharp setting on most TVs is actually an edge enhancer which artificially presents the appearance of a crisper image and in fact exaggerates the appearance of jaggies in the process. Turning sharpness to a very low setting will perhaps make the image seem softer than you're used to at first, but it actually allows a more accurate representation of the video signal.

It may not be called sharpness on your TV. Dunno much about Samsung TVs, but see what settings you have to play with. If one is indicated to provide a crisper image, try decreasing it.
 
Oh and yea, you'll see more 'jaggies' with a 480p image. It's because you're seeing exactly what the system is rendering. When you use shitty video connections there's a fair amount of information that gets thrown away resulting in an image that is 'fuzzier' and hides jagged lines better. a Progressive image will give you a crisp clean untouched image exactly the way its rendered.
 
kaching said:
Component cables are going to give you a more accurate representation of the video feed than s-video or composite cables. So, if the jaggies are in the frame, you're more likely to see them.

However, I believe many TVs are shipped from the factory with the "sharpness" set relatively high. The sharp setting on most TVs is actually an edge enhancer which artificially presents the appearance of a crisper image and in fact exaggerates the appearance of jaggies in the process. Turning sharpness to a very low setting will perhaps make the image seem softer than you're used to at first, but it actually allows a more accurate representation of the video signal.

It may not be called sharpness on your TV. Dunno much about Samsung TVs, but see what settings you have to play with. If one is indicated to provide a crisper image, try decreasing it.
Click to expand...

Good info... Gona mess around with the "sharpness"
 
Poody said:
I just bought this tv
EC.SAM.TXP2675WHD.CN.JPG

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Sams.../sem/rpsm/oid/91175/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do

I noticed games like MGS3 using the component cables (Y Pb Pr LR) and turning on progressive scan with 19:6 ratio, the graphics actually look worse? I see more jaggies then ever and it looks worse then then regular AV cables. Can someone englighten me and tell me whats going on?
Click to expand...
My wife got me the 30" version of this TV for my Birthday. F Zero on progressive scan with 16:9 mode = Hot Neon Sex

Shame that MGS3 doesn't support either mode, but its not a huge loss considering the gameplay.
 
Poody:

> I noticed games like MGS3 using the component cables (Y Pb Pr LR) and turning on
> progressive scan with 19:6 ratio, the graphics actually look worse? I see more jaggies
> then ever and it looks worse then then regular AV cables. Can someone englighten me
> and tell me whats going on?

First of all, forget what the Xbox evanglists wrote. I reckon it has to do with your tv stretching the picture to fill the screen. Make sure that the picture is displayed in its proper 4:3 format (with black bars on either side). That should help.

Also, you should try adjusting more than just sharpness if that didn't solve the issue. Modern tvs ship with all sorts of fancy digital functions that do more to ruin the picture than make it better.
 
evangalist who?

Shit goes in, shit comes out. Thats how TV's work. You can tweak the sharpness enough to help an image, but if its meant for a 480i display then it will look best on a 480i display. The only xbox games that look good on a progressive display are the ones that are designed for it, everything else is going to look slightly blurry. Same for the cube, same for the PS2. The difference is that the Cube and the Xbox have more games that natively support the resolution.
 
"on a related note, what should people expect running 480i games on an HDTV?"

Well yesterday I tried GT3 on a 46 inch sony HDTV with their DRC thingy and well, it's just ugly compared to what it looks like on my plain old tv... VERY grainy and noisy.
 
Vark:

> Shit goes in, shit comes out. Thats how TV's work. You can tweak the sharpness enough
> to help an image, but if its meant for a 480i display then it will look best on a 480i
> display.

A deinterlaced picture looks the same as an interlaced one only with no visible scanlines.
He may prefer the interlaced picture but I doubt that's the issue in this case.

> The only xbox games that look good on a progressive display are the ones that are
> designed for it, everything else is going to look slightly blurry.

Due to the flicker filter (which is pretty bad in Xbox). I don't know if MGS3 uses a flicker filter but that doesn't seem to be the issue either. The poster complains about jaggies and a flicker filter helps reduce aliasing.

> Same for the cube, same for the PS2. The difference is that the Cube and the Xbox
> have more games that natively support the resolution.

You mean output.
 
"A deinterlaced picture looks the same as an interlaced one only with no visible scanlines.
Click to expand...

No they don't. Instead of a 'true' progressive image that might have information stacked like this:

RRRRGGGGBBBB (Line1)
GGBBGGBBGGBB (Line2)

It'll look like this

Frame 1

RRRRGGGGBBBB (Line 1)
RRRRGGGGBBBB (Copy of Line one)

Frame 2

GGBBGGBBGGBB
GGBBGGBBGGBB

You're throwing out half of your useable pixels and just using them for redundant information. Visually that will make a difference and keep them from looking 'excatly the same' as an interlaced only image.

"The poster complains about jaggies and a flicker filter helps reduce aliasing."
Click to expand...

Flicker filtering reduces the effects of an switching between video fields. so the transition from line 1 to line 2, back to line 1 looks more constant. If the 'jaggy' is a result of the hardware output and is larger than a pixel (which most of them are). Then flicker filtering is just going to give you a blurry jagged line.

Try playing Jak and Daxter on an HD set and get back to me. That games looks *hideous*.

"You mean output."
Click to expand...

No I mean support. The xbox is always 'outputting' a 480p resolution. But if the game doesn't support it then it still looks like ass because the Xbox is upconverting.
 
I own the 30" version of this TV, too. Great TV, I might add.

It upconverts, too, which is nice for watching SD TV stations.
 
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