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[Zaptruder]

Ignoring the lack of explanation for the creation of the universe, how do Christians, Jews and Muslims go from the idea of a universe needing a creator to the idea of Jehova, the God of abraham?

It would be good to define what God that is first... is he all powerful, knowing and good?

But make sure you don't become so arbitary in your fancyings, that you start making up a key to fit a hole... I know I did, and suddenly found myself questioning the things I believed in for a long time, very hard.

 

[Instigator]

They can't if you take away creation as the 'proof'. All they have left is faith.

 

[ToxicAdam]

As you grow older, you begin to see the symmetry and design of the world and the universe around you. It is overwhelming how something so chaotic can have so much order.

It is probably natural to doubt the existence of God as man-made religions have made him to be ... but to deny that "something" hasn't had a hand in creating this all, seems a little naive.

I have always subscribed to the Enlightenment idea of Deism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism). Read up on it.

 

[Papi]

Faith.

 

[Dujour]

Yeah, faith. Faith is not needing or having desire for proof.

 

[Triumph]

I for one view boobs as a sign that God exists, and that yes He is male.

 

[Instigator]

I have always subscribed to the Enlightenment idea of Deism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism). Read up on it.

Wikipedia does not yet have an article with this exact name.

You can't define nothingness, I guess.

 

[ToxicAdam]

You can't define nothingness, I guess.

lol. Whoops .. fixed!

 

[Zaptruder]

Be careful about faith; it is the ultimate in self-reinforcing logic; as in anything spurious can be believed with 'faith'...

or is anyone willing to tell me better, how it works?

 

[Musashi Wins!]

As you grow older, you begin to see the symmetry and design of the world and the universe around you. It is overwhelming how something so chaotic can have so much order.

I don't want to get deeply involved in an argument over religion, but characterizing the lack of this viewpoint as naive is somewhat disingenious as it's generally ignorance or lack of education that keeps one from even questioning the rather natural assumption that nature is created like our car or bible.

 

[Dujour]

Be careful about faith; it is the ultimate in self-reinforcing logic; as in anything spurious can be believed with 'faith'...

or is anyone willing to tell me better, how it works?

Don't ask too many questions about how things work. Know your role.[/obiwan]

 

[bob_arctor]

Though this can be also seen as a sign of the oncoming Apocalypse everywhere outside of the New England area.

 

[xsarien]

Seeing as how the movie comes out in a couple of weeks, this seems appropriate.

 

[ypo]

Pigs fly. Why don't you see them flying?

Don't question it. Have faith.

 

[Zaptruder]

As you grow older, you begin to see the symmetry and design of the world and the universe around you. It is overwhelming how something so chaotic can have so much order.

It is probably natural to doubt the existence of God as man-made religions have made him to be ... but to deny that "something" hasn't had a hand in creating this all, seems a little naive.

I have always subscribed to the Enlightenment idea of Deism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism). Read up on it.

Actually, as I grow older, I begin to more fully realise the dis-symmetry and the pot-luck and the gravitic, knock on, positive shift effect, that got us here to where we are today.

 

[ToxicAdam]

I don't want to get deeply involved in an argument over religion, but characterizing the lack of this viewpoint as naive is somewhat disingenious as it's generally ignorance or lack of education that keeps one from even questioning the rather natural assumption that nature is created like our car or bible.

I can accept this.

 

[Drozmight]

I was having this argument with a friend of mine. He was doing the chances of life coming to existence on its own is very small argument, and universe being finely tuned argument. I argued that arguments involving probability are flawed due to the fact that no matter how low the probability of something occuring, given enough time it'll occur. Also that if the universe were tuned differently, the universe would be different and thus some different form of life might exist in our place.

Just when the debate was starting to get fun and interesting he said "eh"... and stopped talking.

 

[Gek54]

I had an arguement similar to that and my boss was trying to argue something about if the atomic weight of an electron was .000001% different then all we would have in the universe is Hydrogen. He couldnt get past the idea if there is a probability no matter how small then there is a possibility that you cant deny.

 

[mrroboto]

blessed are those who have not seen, yet believed.

 

[Hollywood]

+1 mrroboto

You want proof? Go look at EVP, white noise, near death experiences, angelic experiences, etc ... I mean its pretty obvious theres an afterlife thats been shown by science, even if you don't want to believe it or not.

 

[xsarien]

+1 mrroboto

You want proof? Go look at EVP, white noise, near death experiences, angelic experiences, etc ...

Easily hoaxed and anecdotal events are proof? A lot of people claimed to have been abducted by aliens, I certainly don't accept that as proof that UFOs are making routine, planned visits to our planet.

(This doesn't negate my feelings that there is life on other planets in all forms.)

 

[Matlock]

 

[Instigator]

How are hallucinations proof?

 

[Doth Togo]

Pigs fly.

Yes, Al Sharpton does fly.

 

[bob_arctor]

+1 mrroboto

You want proof? Go look at EVP, white noise, near death experiences, angelic experiences, etc ... I mean its pretty obvious theres an afterlife thats been shown by science, even if you don't want to believe it or not.

Oh come on.

 

[Manics]

blessed are those who have not seen, yet believed.

Amen to that.

 

[Hitokage]

As you grow older, you begin to see the symmetry and design of the world and the universe around you. It is overwhelming how something so chaotic can have so much order.

Gravity is cool like that.

 

[Hollywood]

Easily hoaxed and anecdotal events are proof? A lot of people claimed to have been abducted by aliens, I certainly don't accept that as proof that UFOs are making routine, planned visits to our planet.

(This doesn't negate my feelings that there is life on other planets in all forms.)

Fine. Go with an EVP guy while he's recording at a supposedly haunted area. Then go back and listen to the voices on it. So every ghost sighting also and things moving out of nowhere is nothing? What about events such as at an Air Force base where two guys were in their truck, saw a UFO, then woke up in their truck with their clothes on backwards?

I like how atheists claim people who believe in religion are ignorant to fact, when they themselves are more ignorant than anyone involved with religion.

 

[bob_arctor]

Fine. Go with an EVP guy while he's recording at a supposedly haunted area. Then go back and listen to the voices on it. So every ghost sighting also and things moving out of nowhere is nothing? What about events such as at an Air Force base where two guys were in their truck, saw a UFO, then woke up in their truck with their clothes on backwards?

None of those examples either prove or disprove the existence of God. Just saying.

 

[xsarien]

Fine. Go with an EVP guy while he's recording at a supposedly haunted area.

And while I'm doing that, go ask anyone who took psychology as a minor in college how powerful simple suggestion can be.

Then go back and listen to the voices on it. So every ghost sighting also and things moving out of nowhere is nothing? What about events such as at an Air Force base where two guys were in their truck, saw a UFO, then woke up in their truck with their clothes on backwards?

And for the record, I have gone with psychics on their little hunts. Mostly as a lark, they let me go along as long as they got some press in the campus paper about it. You know what? Nothing in the pictures; nothing on tape; absolutely, positively nothing. Sure, they felt "presences," because if they said they didn't they wouldn't have gotten their speaking fee. But most haunted houses are publicity stunts, "mass" hysteria, or explained away by normal environmental factors.

I like how atheists claim people who believe in religion are ignorant to fact, when they themselves are more ignorant than anyone involved with religion.

I like how you're doing two things:

1) Assuming I'm an athiest.
2) Using purely anecdotal and speciously proven events as evidence that there is, without a doubt, a God.

 

[Dice]

Anyone can only truly give "Reasons to believe in..." because if anyone could prove what they believed then everyone would believe it--these are issues of faith. As for me, I simply believed, there was no logical deduction, I just believed. If you ask me why I do, I can only say it was because of Him, I heard His voice and followed. Does this perfectly work out in reason? Does Christ make total sense? No, but then that's what the scriptures say as well.

1 Peter 1:20-21 "He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God."

1 Corinthians 1:18-25 "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength."

So there you go, everyone is at some point part of "those who are perishing" but then God calls, and you can receive Him by faith. For more on that process, see Mark 4:1-29. The fact is that if faith had proof it wouldn't be faith--how could Noah have believed if there had never been rain before that point? The answer is faith, it talks about his faith and that of others throughout scripture in Hebrews 11, where it begins saying:

Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Some other translations say "assurance" and "conviction", because the greek words used there actually have a double-meaning and when translating to english you have to pick which one you'll bring focus to. I like this one (NKJV) because it points out our faith as being the very evidence that points to what is not seen, just as Noah's faith was the evidence of the flood to come. I know if you don't believe in Noah you can't use that as a specific reason or anything, but he works as a good example of the principle going on here. It says soon after...

Hebrews 11:3 "By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible."

There are many examples in the New Testament. Making it very clear that the message of the gospel is rejected as foolishness by everyone until God's Spirit convicts them, and if you do not harden your heart to it but believe then there you go. It also says in 1 Corinthians 2 (among othe places) that those who do this are given His Spirit, and you start to see the world in a new way, you start to see the truth in the teachings and evaluate the world in a new way.

Go ahead and say it's stupid if you want, in a way I can see how one would think it is, but then I can't deny what I know is true. It's no longer a concept apart from me that I try and work out logically and decide on, it's something inside me, smething real and of substance. Slightly paradoxal, yes, but so are many things even without believing in God. Nevertheless it is the reason given:

1 John 4:13 "We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit."

So how do I believe in one thing by faith but differentiate that between the many number of things I could believe by faith? Scripture keeps one on track, and then there's discernment by God's Spirit, that's about as much as I can figure of it. And yeah you can even get off track on that too, but I suppose you can't honestly follow anything without humility. So you need to be willing to rightly look at how you are living compared to Christ, and change what needs to be changed--As Christ commanded:

Matthew 3:8 "Produce fruit in keeping with repentance."

That fruit is of obedience to His commandments and a well balanced life, and it comes out in your character like this.

Galatians 5:22-26 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and selfcontrol. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other."

I hope this helps you understand people of faith a bit better.

 

[Drozmight]

Also... sometimes you only hear the voices after someone points them out. I remember going to a presentation where someone played a song backwards and we all heard nothing... then he played it backwards again with captions stating what was being said and it was there. Was it really there, or were we only hearing because we were looking for it?

 

[Hitokage]

Fine. Go with an EVP guy while he's recording at a supposedly haunted area. Then go back and listen to the voices on it. So every ghost sighting also and things moving out of nowhere is nothing? What about events such as at an Air Force base where two guys were in their truck, saw a UFO, then woke up in their truck with their clothes on backwards?

I like how atheists claim people who believe in religion are ignorant to fact, when they themselves are more ignorant than anyone involved with religion.

Ok, your argument there is not athiesm/religion, so don't make it that way. Skeptics, on the other hand, understand that our perceptive abilities are deeply flawed and are given to seeing patterns in things that simply aren't there. Anecdotal evidence is not true evidence. It's totally subjective, given to distortion, and nonrepeatable.

 

[xsarien]

Also... sometimes you only hear the voices after someone points them out. I remember going to a presentation where someone played a song backwards and we all heard nothing... then he played it backwards again with captions stating what was being said and it was there. Was it really there, or were we only hearing because we were looking for it?

On that note, I miss my OldGAF tag.

 

[Boomer]

I'm pretty positive that if God doesn't want us to have proof of his existence or an afterlife, then he wouldn't have created things that could prove it (the machines you're all blabbering about). So there will never be "proof". Just like there will never be proof that he doesn't exist. This argument is stupid.

 

[Manics]

You'll all find out for sure when you're dead. Then we'll see who's laughing.

 

[Drozmight]

On that note, I miss my OldGAF tag.

what was your tag?

 

[DarthWoo]

You'll all find out for sure when you're dead. Then we'll see who's laughing.

It'll probably be the magical pink turtle that everyone forgot about, so he sent everyone to an eternity of musical torture.

 

[Spectral Glider]

And sometimes, late at night, that stack of clothes in the corner looks like a demon from the nethers region.....my mind was almost certain of it (even though I have never been to or seen an actual demon from the nether region before.) Never underestimate the crazy, but useless, shit the human brain can manufacture.

 

[WordofGod]

Paul talks about this in the book of Romans:

Romans 1:19, 20
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

Creation all around testifies of God’s reality. The grandeur of heaven alone has spoken to every tongue, every culture, and every society throughout history (Psalm 19:1–3). Concerning the acceptance of the “Big Bang Theory” by the scientific community, Robert Jastrow, an astrophysicist and director of NASA’s Goodard Institute for Space Studies, wrote:

Now we see how the astronomical evidence supports the biblical view of the origin of the world. The essential elements in the astronomical and biblical accounts of Genesis are now the same. Consider the enormity of the problem. Science has proved that the universe exploded into being at a certain given moment. It asks what cause produced this effect. Who or what put the matter and energy into the universe? And science cannot answer this question. For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of his own reason, the story ends now like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance. He is about to conquer the highest peak. He pulls himself over the final rock, and he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been there for centuries.

Walking with a group of admirals one evening who were discussing whether or not God existed, Napoleon is said to have pointed to the heavens and said, “Sirs, if you’re going to get rid of God, you must get rid of those.” Napoleon was right. The heavens declare the glory, the reality, the substance, the weight of God.

Romans 1:21 (a)
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God…

Every man knows there’s a God, but men choose to suppress the truth and deny God exists because they don’t want to give glory to Him as God. You see, if there is a God, then I am required to submit to Him. But my flesh doesn’t want to do that, so I’ll suppress the truth I see all around me. I’ll say God doesn’t exist—even though the heavens and stars scream at me, “Yes He does!”

 

[Dilbert]

As you grow older, you begin to see the symmetry and design of the world and the universe around you. It is overwhelming how something so chaotic can have so much order.

It is probably natural to doubt the existence of God as man-made religions have made him to be ... but to deny that "something" hasn't had a hand in creating this all, seems a little naive.

Argument from design? Check.

You'll all find out for sure when you're dead. Then we'll see who's laughing.

Pascal's Wager? Check.

blessed are those who have not seen, yet believed.

Obligatory Bible references? Check.

All we need now is Anselm's Ontological Argument to appear, and I will have completed my faith bingo card!

 

[milanbaros]

I have respect for people that have true faith but I see many people that believe simply out of fear of what will come after death. To me religion is just the easy way out in explaining the unknown and most of all what happens to you post death.

We still know so little and where there are gaps there will be religion. Not everything will be completely explained so as far as I can see there will always be religion and at the head of this religion will be a figurehead/God.

Its human nature to try and explain what we don't know and what we fear. A God can take care of all unknowns, simple as. however, as more is revealed such as Darwin's theory, religion adapts and is less important in people's lives. Also as liberty becomes more widespread the significance of God in most people's lives diminishes.

If we all lived forever would there be any need for a God? People see the beatuy in the world and how it all links and this perfection spreads thoughout the universe but the simple fact is that if it wasn't like this it wouldn't work and thus wouldn't exist or would take another form, equally as astounding.

There is also a God to explain such instances in life where the chances of this occuring are too small to contemplate, such as the craetion of life through carbon atom arrangements, but as someone has said, as far as I know time is infinate so in the end anything thats possible will happen.

I respect faith but not in the form of organised religion. The history of the Christian faith is just too iffy for me to take it seriously, not in the one time existence of Jesus etc but in its Churches and documents.

To put it simply, God exists in the human conscious to explain unknowns and counter fears. Beyond the human consious? I'm unsure, but does it really matter?

 

[Jim Bowie]

Argument from design? Check.
Pascal's Wager? Check.
Obligatory Bible references? Check.

All we need now is Anselm's Ontological Argument to appear, and I will have completed my faith bingo card!

Post that reflects current state of intellectually cynical antitheism? Check.

Come on, they answered the question, stating there is no proof, only faith. Christians (and any member of a religious sect) get enough bashing from the real world, let alone a videogame forum on the internet. They answered to what they believe is correct, and attacking their faith isn't going to do anything but strengthen their faith and make you look like an intolerant jerk.

 

[Drozmight]

Or Thomas Aquinas

 

[AntoneM]

my stance on God is the same stance I have towards ghosts, I don't believe they exist but I'm scared of them.

 

[brooklyngooner]

Post that reflects current state of intellectually cynical antitheism? Check.

Come on, they answered the question, stating there is no proof, only faith. Christians (and any member of a religious sect) get enough bashing from the real world, let alone a videogame forum on the internet. They answered to what they believe is correct, and attacking their faith isn't going to do anything but strengthen their faith and make you look like an intolerant jerk.

I don't think he's being an intolerant jerk and he's isn't attacking faith itself but rather the reasons given for it.

Christians and other religious sects bash back just fine, by the way. They hardly need the hand-holding.

 

[ToxicAdam]

Does anyone else's eyes immediately glaze over once they start seeing Bible verses? They could be quoting Anne Rice .. and I wouldn't know the difference.


I find it amusing how hostile people who don't believe get. Like somehow, thier witty and sarcastic remarks are going to shine the light of truth on you. "Oh yea, your sarcasm has answered all my questions. Now it see it so clearly." Like a child that discovers there is no Santa Claus, and has to run to tell all the other children. "I figured it out! Look at me!"

 

[Jim Bowie]

I don't think he's being an intolerant jerk and he's isn't attacking faith itself but rather the reasons given for it.

Christians and other religious sects bash back just fine, by the way. They hardly need the hand-holding.

I didn't say he was a jerk, just making such a blithely callous remark makes him come off like one. In my opinion.

And I understand that a large majority of religious sects make scalding comments themselves... but to attack someone who had answered a given question to the best of their ability seems unfair and wrong.

By gooner, do you mean SA? Out of curiousity.

 

[MIMIC]

What is this? An atheist recruitment thread?

 

[brooklyngooner]

I find it amusing how hostile people who don't believe get. Like somehow, thier witty and sarcastic remarks are going to shine the light of truth on you. "Oh yea, your sarcasm has answered all my questions. Now it see it so clearly." Like a child that discovers there is no Santa Claus, and has to run to tell all the other children. "I figured it out! Look at me!"

Except that in this very thread I read your suggestion about the complexity of nature and the inherent naivete of the belief it isn't orchestrated, Hollywood's anecdotal and spurious assertion that science has proven an afterlife that atheists have shut their eyes to, and WordofGod's quasi-argument (Bible quoting isn't an argument) that everyone believes, but some choose to deny. The arrogance works both ways.