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Protesters Disrupt Speech by Bell Curve Author at Vermont College
- Thread starter ponpo
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I highly doubt that it's only relevant for the far end of the distribution.
I'm aware of studies saying that disadvantageous environments can have a notable negative effect on IQ over time, but is there anything investigating the "ceiling" of this effect? Like, what's the highest that IQ can rise or fall depending on circumstances (during adolescence)? I guess that's difficult to study because isolating the environment from the genetics would require some pretty bizarre experiment setups or a fuckload of twins.
JordanN
Banned
I'd like to think, if you could inherit intelligence, shouldn't these people be at the top? Shouldn't they have all the influence?
And yet, just look at the 2016 election and it was a dumbass who took office. From my point of view, to be born with intelligence is to be born with a complete understanding of this world and how humans behave. And that's impossible because life is random and unpredictable.
The idea that you can create a singular test to measure human potential is a silly idea. IQ is used as a method of social control, not as a measure of intelligence. Many tests in the modern day exist for this purpose solely. They don't exist to help people, but to separate and isolate them.
As for Murray, it's unfortunate that he was physically hurt, but he should have never been allowed to speak in the first place. Supporting ideas like IQ hurt the potential of all people regardless. For those already afflicted by racism and misogyny, it also affects them, negatively and disproportionately.
Am I underestimating the importance/prevalence of intelligence testing in the USA because I'm from Europe? It's more of a curiosity thing where I live.
No, it's mainly people who score high on IQ tests who care about the legitimacy of IQ. I think the latest anyone takes one in school is around age 12.
Edit: And white supremacists, I guess.
There's nothing wrong with that if its backed up. The problem is that its not backed up.
JordanN
Banned
So poverty can only be caused by intelligence, and not the fact income inequality and exploitation exists?
Yes, that's why we got passed those things. Not to say we don't have a long road left but the better way did prevail in the end. Change is not an immediate thing and it's not easy but we have changed.
I think Murray's other book Coming Apart actually does argue this, that the upper middle class is high intellect people marrying each other and passing on their wealth / intellect to their kids.
I can't really say because I don't have enough knowledge about Europe to make such a statement. I could guess as to why people give it so much credence in America, but it would be just that, a guess. Still, it is very clearly used here, in my experience as a teacher and a student, to separate and classify (hearing other teachers say a student doing a stupid thing is ok because they're, "one of those" - the polite way of calling a student stupid, or justifying some other form of ableism. Which as a phrase has replaced the "slow learner" phrase, probably as a way of avoiding the idea that the person can learn, to avoid responsibility). It's particularly egregious in Southern schools but seems to be infecting the ideology of students and teachers alike. It started to become a more major issue in the 90s and sadly hasn't really left academia.
Not sure where you got that...
StrikeNinja24
Banned
So now even peaceful protests are no good?
Protests are only good when you do it with something another agrees with. Which flies in the face of what protests are all about in the first place.
At least it's not reddit.
StrikeNinja24
Banned
You don't "win a debate" with these people. They will frantically jump from point to point until they find something they can stick with. One of their favorite things to do is to ask questions that have no facts to back them up, and demand you show proof of the opposite. When you cant answer a question that makes no sense, they will try and swing it against you.
Hypemaster
Member
Airola
Member
If genetics can make people's eyes or hair or anything else be of certain type on average, it could be that genetics can make differences in brains too, which could affect to IQ on average.
If it is so, then it is so.
Problems arise when:
1) People think they or someone else immediately are above or below the average because of their heritage.
-If genetics would say the people of person X's heritage have lower IQ in average, it doesn't mean person X has low IQ. If genetics would say the people of person Y's heritage have higher IQ in average, it doesn't mean person Y has high IQ.
It's possible that a person from the "below average" group could be someone with the highest IQ of all. It can be more unlikely but it's not impossible.
2) People think IQ shows who is inferior compared to others.
-If some person is better in athletics than other, it doesn't mean others are inferior to him. Others, on average, just run slower than the athlete. There's no basis for judging a person's character from that.
3) People think we should control how much lower and higher IQ people should be in the world.
-That leads to nothing good.
I think intelligence is overrated anyway. It says nothing about who can be a nice person. There are countless of dangerous assholes with high IQ in the world.
Also, we are talking about intelligence as an IQ number here. That number only tells what type of logical thinking a person is good at. While I think how brains are formed in each person can affect to how well certain type of logical problem solving works with each individual, I don't think we can measure overall intelligence yet.
I think a person with a "good heart" with low IQ can sometimes be seen as more intelligent than a person with "bad heart" with high IQ. Maybe that's what is called wisdom.
If it is so, then it is so.
Problems arise when:
1) People think they or someone else immediately are above or below the average because of their heritage.
-If genetics would say the people of person X's heritage have lower IQ in average, it doesn't mean person X has low IQ. If genetics would say the people of person Y's heritage have higher IQ in average, it doesn't mean person Y has high IQ.
It's possible that a person from the "below average" group could be someone with the highest IQ of all. It can be more unlikely but it's not impossible.
2) People think IQ shows who is inferior compared to others.
-If some person is better in athletics than other, it doesn't mean others are inferior to him. Others, on average, just run slower than the athlete. There's no basis for judging a person's character from that.
3) People think we should control how much lower and higher IQ people should be in the world.
-That leads to nothing good.
I think intelligence is overrated anyway. It says nothing about who can be a nice person. There are countless of dangerous assholes with high IQ in the world.
Also, we are talking about intelligence as an IQ number here. That number only tells what type of logical thinking a person is good at. While I think how brains are formed in each person can affect to how well certain type of logical problem solving works with each individual, I don't think we can measure overall intelligence yet.
I think a person with a "good heart" with low IQ can sometimes be seen as more intelligent than a person with "bad heart" with high IQ. Maybe that's what is called wisdom.
Silver Arrows
Banned
What do you expect? With how America frames free speech, where even hardcore racism dressed up in a nice coat is essentially shrugged off by liberals as amendment rights, then it makes trying to deal with this stuff a pain.
There have been many people here who have explained perfectly why giving racist ideas like this a stage and a mic is pointless. The far right DOES NOT GIVE A SHIT ABOUT OPEN, RESPECTFUL DIALOGUE. Yeah sure, you might be able to convert one poor sod once every blue moon, but for the most part, you should be stomping the fuck out of this regressive, hateful speech.
So punch 'em?
BrutishMrFish
Member
What's really bizarre is how you seem to be under the impression that propaganda doesn't work. It does, and it's generally not countered by giving the propagandist a chance to respond or weasel their way out of the truth.
Alternatively, maybe they recognize that there's no point in entertaining people who base the majority of their arguments on pure dishonesty. Nobody is afraid that GamerGaters or Sandy Hook truthers are right; they know that those people are full of shit and undeserving of the legitimacy that a debate would give. The same applies to Murray.
theignoramus
Member
Only because the FBI and the federal government put an end the Klan & racial segregation. Debate accomplished little to nothing against hardened White supremacists. In fact, the man who openly embraced dialogue and debate, MLK, was fucking shot by a White supremacist. And many other civil rights activists were murdered.
I dont believe in dialogue with Nazis and Nazi sympathers, there are only two language these people speak, the languages of blood and money.
Being a good person is not emotional intelligence.
Silver Arrows
Banned
No, it's not justified to prevent Nazis from speaking with violence.
The original poster mentioned wisdom. Being wise is also not being a good person.
Although it's easier to be a good person while also not being a recluse if you have EI.
Seems really strange to me that we the left like to think of ourselves as the evolved and thoughtful intellectuals until the first time shit doesn't go our way, then we go back to Hulk-smashing.
Messofanego
Banned
Silver Arrows
Banned
Awesome .gif.
I'm just looking for someone to to flatly say that we can solve arguments by kicking people's asses again so I can start solving more problems.
Good post.
Noted?
Again, so they're simple minded assholes who are saying stupid things. So let's prove them wrong by dominating them physically?
Agreed, there are lots of shades of gray. I'm just trying to figure out exactly what shade of gray allows me to start cleaning house.
Proving their hateful rhetoric wrong is the hill you want to due on, not me.
I just personally am not willing to give their rhetoric any podium or shelter.
If you feel like your idea of "proving them wrong" includes giving concessions to those who want to broadcast their hate, have at it.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Murray's a weird situation. What's scary about him is his popularity with conservative political nerds in academia, journalism, and government, not his popularity with every day people.
I guess getting him off college campuses would be one way to respond to that.
I guess getting him off college campuses would be one way to respond to that.
Silver Arrows
Banned
they're the ones screaming about Auntie Ruth possibly dying when BLM blocks a bridge, right?
So you don't want a play based on The Turner Dairies to be performed during Black History Month?
Silver Arrows
Banned
I don't know, but lets ask Auntie Ruth....
Auntie Ruth could have lived another fifty years if obama hadn't closed that bridge
Kotetsu534
Member
Seriously, when you are attacking and injuring (female) professors, you are not the good guys. The other guys might be bad too, of course, but once you stoop to mob violence, at a university, of all places, the moral highground has long since disappeared over the horizon.
Silver Arrows
Banned
I don't think that these theories are saying anything about the smartest individuals, but about the average/median ones.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
To be fair, he probably wasn't going to be promoting racism if he was going to talk about ”Coming Apart" and the white working class.
He basically does the same thing to the white working class that he does to black people, trying to intellectualize their struggles as largely being their own fault, and that the only cure is bootstraps.
He basically does the same thing to the white working class that he does to black people, trying to intellectualize their struggles as largely being their own fault, and that the only cure is bootstraps.
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