carlosp said:didnt Kutaragi say ps3 is a super computer? :lol
MikeB said:In this thread I talked a little about the XBox 360's desgin being built around EDRAM utilization, this imposing bottlenecks for dealing with high resolutions.
I also talked about how on the PS3 it's possible for the GPU to use XDR memory to increase texture memory as well as texture bandwidth if needed and earlier I talked about how texture streaming can improve things as well, relevant to this here's an older Insonmiac quote with regard to texture streaming regarding to Ratchet & Clank: Tools of Destruction:
"Ratchet & Clank on the PS3 uses texture streaming which allows us to get about 150 MB of extra VRAM in each level. This allows for much higher resolution textures than we used in Resistance, as well as more texture variety."
http://www.videogamer.com/ps3/ratchet_clank_future_tools_of_destruction/news-6901.html
Obviously Blu-Ray disc provides benefits with regard to heavily streaming games engines (mainly 7.1 audio and high resolution textures), there's far more storage space available on mutli-layer / single-layer Blu-Ray discs (the amount of data that can be streamed). The constant read speed of Blu-Ray disc is an advantage, a great benefit in this regard and makes this far more predictable for games developers, this constant reading speed is also faster than the average reading speed available to dual-layer 360 DVDs (to simplify development, devs may even use worst case scenarios for determining how much data will be streamed at any time). On the PS3 with regard to reading speed critical data, devs can even assume the availability of a harddrive for any PS3 configuration.
IMO it's really sad the inclusion of a Blu-Ray drive received so much criticism, sure it contributed to added cost (which Sony seems to pay itself, considering all the parts in the PS3 are really of excellent quality), but the long term advantages are enormous as well as early advantages like having no disc scratching whatsoever to worry about and the PS3 producting far less noise than 360s. Blu-Ray movie playback out of the box should IMO be looked at as a nice added bonus for those interested, but with regard to gaming it's also an important aspect to how the PS3 distinguishes itself with regard to long term potential compared to the 360.
Word _leech__leech_ said:Wow, of all the threads to troll.
Keep the good info coming, MikeB.
MikeB said:Hopefully more many more developers will lead on the PS3, which could indirectly improve the quality of XBox 360 games as well, a multiplatform games developer posting at Beyond3D (admitted their initial games were just "quick & dirty ports from 360):
"We all agree given the time we'd like to architect for the SPU's first then work back... giving us cache-friendly algorithms by design "
So, the mindset amongst developing companies already seems to be changing. Apparently they still are leading a game on the XBox 360, but that should eventually change for the better for both platforms in course of time.
MikeB said:I added the following comments with regard to Metal Gear Solid 4:
"I would also like to challenge the PS3's CPU power for not only what you can see, but also psychological effects, or psychological battles, where it can affect your gameplay."
Source: Eurogamer
TTP said:It's the Emotion Engine again!
MikeB said:Their comments and hints are teasing, just like stating a robot in the trailer is Cell powered. Also considering Kojami's statements that they need a dual layer Blu-Ray disc IMO 360 fans can only dream to get this game for their platform.
Insane Metal said:Is that anyway correct?
Insane Metal said:This thread is great, very useful and interesting!
But, can I ask something here? Not actually SPE´s related but... I need to ask this somewhere.
There´s another board that I attend and a poster in there claims that, if the PS3 shows better graphics than the 360 at some time, it will probably be due to better optimization and developer´s effort than due to a better system hardware. He says that even though people use to say that the PS3 has more horse power, this is wrong and actually the 360 is the most powerful platform.
In another words he states that in a comparison, the PS3 could even do more "things" at the same time than the 360, but in the PS3 they would be jaggier...
Is that anyway correct? Thanks in advance.
Short answer: NoInsane Metal said:Is that anyway correct? Thanks in advance.
From what you've said neither of you really have a grasp on what processing power actually means and what relative amounts of effort can produce. Just enjoy the games and ignore those threads/posts. Read this thread thoroughly if you'd like to learn a bit more!Insane Metal said:This thread is great, very useful and interesting!
But, can I ask something here? Not actually SPE´s related but... I need to ask this somewhere.
There´s another board that I attend and a poster in there claims that, if the PS3 shows better graphics than the 360 at some time, it will probably be due to better optimization and developer´s effort than due to a better system hardware. He says that even though people use to say that the PS3 has more horse power, this is wrong and actually the 360 is the most powerful platform.
In another words he states that in a comparison, the PS3 could even do more "things" at the same time than the 360, but in the PS3 they would be jaggier...
Is that anyway correct? Thanks in advance.
MikeB said:"Well, that all depends on your definition. Writing code optimized for the PS3 and using threading policies that are suited the SPUs is a given, because not doing so would not be acceptable at all. All our multithreading is done on PS3 first without exception, and other platforms emulate SPURS."
"Secondly, the matters of multithreading policies, the whole job queue architecture, encapsulation of jobs and their corresponding data packets, etc. that work on the PS3 are indeed more than applicable of the 360/PC. And as I've mentioned before, they work better than anything and everything that Microsoft recommends (so far without exception for us). The problems lie in the fact that that work is an absolute necessity on the PS3, whereas they're not entirely necessary on any other platform."
MikeB said:Some manufacturer specs of a 12x DVD drive (all 12x Max DVD drives slow to x8 Max for DL), relevant to the part underlined above.
3.3x to 8x (4.125 to 10.8 MB/s) Dual Layer
(Single layer DVD storage is small enough to completely install on any PS3's default harddrive, but almost all current disc distributed 360 games are as good as filling up complete dual layer discs and storage demands by devs like always rises in course of time).
Much confusion in many blogger 360 fan articles relates to taking the max reading speed of a single layer XBox 360 DVD [12 speed max, only achieved on the outer edges of single layer discs) and compare this to sustained PS3 Blu-Ray read speeds of 9 MB/s.
Xenos has a framebuffer bandwidth and fillrate advantage with MSAA even at high resolutions. More eDRAM would be nice to forgo tiling completely, but 10MB is enough. There are already a lot of 720p games with HDR and MSAA on XB360, and even a few 1080p games with 4xMSAA (lots of tiles).MikeB said:PS3 development requires more attention and to utilize all its distinguishing features requires overall more effort, but the rewards are much greater as well. I think if you read this whole thread and links you will get the full picture.
The jaggier comment isn't really correct neither, although the 360 has some nice filtering abilities and the Xenos (daughter chip) could be used for adding "cheap" (performance wise) AA. However the Cell is very well suited for this (and other things) as well and with fewer negative side-effects, as the EDRAM's small size is a limitating factor for doing stuff like this in high resolutions.
lol.So please take many articles with a grain of salt
danwarb said:Xenos has a framebuffer bandwidth and fillrate advantage with MSAA even at high resolutions. More eDRAM would be nice to forgo tiling completely, but 10MB is enough. There are already a lot of 720p games with HDR and MSAA on XB360, and even a few 1080p games with 4xMSAA (lots of tiles).
Im won't dispute that PS3 has more overall than your Xbox360, but I think your technical posts can be very one-sided and misleading. It's not PS3>>>Xbox360.
lol.
deepbrown said:Name these please.
Fifa Street and NBA Homecourt - only native 1080p titles at 4xAA...quite an accomplishment - NOTE: both these titles have 0xAA on the PS3TTP said:Yeah. Really curious about this as well.
Bets it will turn out to be just upscaled games
deepbrown said:Fifa Street and NBA Homecourt - only native 1080p titles at 4xAA...quite an accomplishment - NOTE: both these titles have 0xAA on the PS3
danwarb said:Xenos has a framebuffer bandwidth and fillrate advantage with MSAA even at high resolutions.
More eDRAM would be nice to forgo tiling completely, but 10MB is enough..
Worm_Buffet said:BS. With real time rendered cut-scenes? Only if you have to fit the voice acting from all regions on there. For FFXIII I could imagine this to be true.
kitch9 said:A close friend of mine works in a dev studio and she laughs when he reads posts like this. Games fit a DVD because currently they have to. Not enough HD players in PCs and the 360 has no option. Devs are reluctant to use multiple DVD's on the PC simply due to the added costs.
Anybody who thinks storage size is not a limitation that is considered a lot when designing games is a little silly.
Worm_Buffet said:The Kojima claim I responded to was "that they need a dual layer Blu-Ray disc" for MGS4. I didn't say there wouldn't be issues fitting it on a DVD, but that it requires a dual-layer BD I find hard to believe. I know MGS4 is an ambitious project and all, but more than 25 GB of textures, 3d models, voice acting etc?
Panajev2001a said:... (also thanks to the release of EDGE and one nice gem inside it called GCMReplay) ...
GCMReplay can simulate object Z culling on the SPU ... so we can test what it would mean for us to go through the whole implementation process to support culling of objects.
If that's the reason why he claims to *need* dual side BD, with all due respect it would be one of the most ignorant claims I've ever heard, flying in the face of the huge jumps ahead that psychoacoustics compression techniques have done in the past ten years or so.TheBlackLodge said:Isn't he suppsoed to be using uncompressed 7.1 sound as well ?
cedric69 said:If that's the reason why he claims to *need* dual side BD, with all due respect it would be one of the most ignorant claims I've ever heard, flying in the face of the huge jumps ahead that psychoacoustics compression techniques have done in the past ten years or so.
I really hope the space will be devoted to something else.
kitch9 said:How many games have you made Cedric? I hope its enough for you to justify calling one of the greatest game creators on the planet ignorant.
Worm_Buffet said:The Kojima claim I responded to was "that they need a dual layer Blu-Ray disc" for MGS4. I didn't say there wouldn't be issues fitting it on a DVD, but that it requires a dual-layer BD I find hard to believe. I know MGS4 is an ambitious project and all, but more than 25 GB of textures, 3d models, voice acting etc?
cedric69 said:If that's the reason why he claims to *need* dual side BD, with all due respect it would be one of the most ignorant claims I've ever heard, flying in the face of the huge jumps ahead that psychoacoustics compression techniques have done in the past ten years or so.
I really hope the space will be devoted to something else.
MikeB said:Not really. AFAIK fillrate isn't a problem on neither platform. On the PS3 you would potentially use other methods to add AA and HDR effects to games. Sadly many games were developed with the 360/DirectX in mind.
For example even a PS3 exclusive like Heavenly Sword was only a 1st generation PS3 title, still with a lot of legacy bagage. However the game is said to perform (NAO32) HDR, 8xAF and 4x MSAA.
Some Ninja Theory dev comments:
"Not at all; in fact for many framebuffer effects I believe RSX will have an edge over Xenos."
"most developers are barely using Cell's power"
Why GPUs are not (so) good at post processing images
Current PS3 game engines will advance a lot in comparison to what has been acomplished with current games so far (for exclusive games at least, technically the 360 and PS3 are far more different than many people believe).
IMO not really enough, at least not for the more advanced future games.
J-Rzez said:Oh, and loli at people calling "BS" on Kojima for claims he made himself. Call BS on posters, but to call it on Kojima himself? :lol
FirewalkR said:Do tell! Expand on this subject as much as you can, please.
arg2bad said:1080p cinematics which i believe will be included will take it over the 25gb
Mononofu said:In lest something has changed, all the cut scenes are realtime.
With hardware as powerful as PS3's? Pretty much negligible to be honest.Leidenfrost said:Do you know the kind of processing overhead lossless/transparent compression models would bring to the table in game development? Honest question.
It's irrelevant how many games I have made (0 by the way), modern psychoacoustics results are scientifically demonstrated. For average people with good equipment, stereo music becomes transparent with 160kbps or less (even 112 or 96 in some cases).kitch9 said:How many games have you made Cedric? I hope its enough for you to justify calling one of the greatest game creators on the planet ignorant.
cedric69 said:psychoacoustics results are scientifically demonstrated. For average people with good equipment, stereo music becomes transparent with 160kbps or less (even 112 or 96 in some cases).
I think you can't equate these two issues. The difference is that even self-proclaimed audiophiles will fail to distinguish say a 256 kbit audio file compressed with a modern codec from the uncompressed source in a double blind test. Self-proclaimed grphics whores (like me) on the other hand will always easily distinguish HD and SD in such a setup. (Well, if you don't show a single-color plane )Leidenfrost said:You'd be surprised how many of those same average people 'can't see a difference' between an upscaled DVD and Blu-Ray.
cedric69 said:For average people with good equipment, stereo music becomes transparent with 160kbps or less (even 112 or 96 in some cases).
But to say that a game *needs* 50 GB and then fill... let's say 35, with uncompressed 7.1 PCM...
cedric69 said:modern psychoacoustics results are scientifically demonstrated. For average people with good equipment, stereo music becomes transparent with 160kbps or less (even 112 or 96 in some cases).
Uncharted's cutscenes are not really realtime rendered, Ratchet & Clanck's neither. Well... Sort of. Cutscenes for both games were rendered in real-time once and recorded. The PS3 only plays a movie from the bluray, it's not rendering the cutscene on it's own, it is too busy to load and to uncompress data for the next level. Many 1st party games from Sony use the same technique and it works fine, it's really efficient regarding the game's pace.MikeB said:Makes sense considering the PS3's processing power, regarding Uncharted:
"Oh yeah exactly, zero load times throughout the entire game. It's a full length streaming experience. Our cinematics are all rendered via the in-game engine so the transition between the game itself and our movies is very smooth. So what you're getting is a consistent visual; what players see during the cutscenes is what they see when they're playing the game." Source: Joystick
Ratchet & Clank: Tools of Destruction uses a similar approach, actually I was quite surprised when I dropped a nano-swarm just before entering a cutscene and see it within the cutscene.
Still impressive real-time rendered cutscenes take up a lot of data, high quality textures, geometry and audio. Uncharted already uses up ~91% of the Blu-Ray disc's 25 GB capacity, IMO it's not hard to imagine Uncharted 2 demanding a dual layer Blu-Ray disc (they could enhance prior game assets from Uncharted 1, add new variety and make the game bigger than before).
BrainZEROX said:Uncharted's cutscenes are not really realtime rendered, Ratchet & Clanck's neither. Well... Sort of. Cutscenes for both games were rendered in real-time once and recorded. The PS3 only plays a movie from the bluray, it's not rendering the cutscene on it's own, it is too busy to load and to uncompress data for the next level.
BrainZEROX said:Uncharted's cutscenes are not really realtime rendered, Ratchet & Clanck's neither. Well... Sort of. Cutscenes for both games were rendered in real-time once and recorded. The PS3 only plays a movie from the bluray, it's not rendering the cutscene on it's own, it is too busy to load and to uncompress data for the next level. Many 1st party games from Sony use the same technique and it works fine, it's really efficient regarding the game's pace.