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[oSoLucky]

I think you are confusing average game enthusiast or forum member to average gamer.

Lol...no average gamer is going to DF to find out TLOU runs 10 fps lower in one of the Pro modes etc...

Likely, a very basic, "Pro is a more powerful PS4 and goes along with a 4K TV" is about as deep as the 'average gamer' logic will go. All those bullet points is way more digging/reading than a large portion of the gaming audience will ever follow through on. It's not that average gamers are dumb, but choose to be uninformed because things like frame rate or native versus non native is not important to them.

And all that's assuming someone is informed enough to check all those bullet points and still not realize that the Xbox One S is a decent bit weaker than the PS4.

The bullet list seems to go more on the lines of:

-Most of the people that I know have one
-There's a game(s) that everyone is playing together on that system

At least in my opinion. I(and by extension my group of friends) have sold literally 20 PS4s purely for people to play Destiny, The Division and ESO with us even though a few of us own both. I can't get anyone to buy an Xbox because the majority are on PS4. Most circles of friends tend to have a bunch of people playing the same system from what I've seen.

There are always those who have other reasons besides playing with friends and in a certain ecosystem, but anyone who has ever read an IGN article or talked to a GameStop employee probably knows there's a power difference(and got opinions with a healthy dose of bias).

 

[WeAreStarStuff]

Why? why not wish for a $50 standalone player? why is it important that it work through the PS4 Pro?

Poor wording on my part. I assume Sony would make it so it only works in conjunction with a PS4.

 

[JP]

At least out the gate, Sony has already lost the narrative on this one. The comparison is now Xbox One S vs PS4 Pro instead of the Slim, in which the cheaper console has actual and perceived advantages over the more expensive one.

For the average consumer that only somewhat follows gaming news, they see:

Xbox One S
$300
More powerful than Xbox One, faster load times, higher framerate
Upscales all games to 4K
Plays 4K bluray

PS4 Pro
$400
More powerful than PS4, games need to be patched
Some patched games play worse
Not quite native 4K games
No 4K bluray

I'm happy with my Pro, but they fumbled this one and are being carried forward by the momentum of the PS4 brand.

And yet, you are still happy with your PS4 Pro as are the two people I know who own one. The same goes for what is, seemingly, the vast majority of people online who have mentioned owning the console.

There is no "average consumer" but whatever that estimation of an average consumer is, they appear to be buying more PlayStation 4 consoles than Xbox One consoles, which I would imagine fits in perfectly with Sony's ongoing narrative of their consoles.

 

[TrojanBlade]

Does PS4 Pro upscales the 1080 BRs to 4K? If so how does it compare to 1080 vs upscaled? Is it a good improvement from 1080?

 

[The Artisan]

Does PS4 Pro upscales the 1080 BRs to 4K? If so how does it compare to 1080 vs upscaled? Is it a good improvement from 1080?

i think someone said in this thread that yes the pro will upscale regular blu rays as long as you have the 2.0 HDMI plugged in. but...i would also like to know how big the difference is

 

[Nostremitus]

Does PS4 Pro upscales the 1080 BRs to 4K? If so how does it compare to 1080 vs upscaled? Is it a good improvement from 1080?

I think people are confused here... Upscaling is the same thing your TV already does when it stretches anything sub-4K to fit the screen. That's all the PS4 Pro does for regular Bluray.

It doesn't make them 4K it anything... It just upscales...

Who said anything about a £99 streamer? You can get a £99 UHD blu-ray player right now a smart one at that so that it can also stream if you like. No, UHD streaming isn't worse than 1080p Blu-ray but I guess that depends on the stream in question.

Can you give me a link to a £99 UHD Bluray player? One that plays UHD Bluray... Not a standard Bluray player with an upscaler.

And yes 4K streaming has a lower bitrate than a 1080p Bluray. It looks worse on screen than a standard Bluray because of it.

 

[Metfanant]

At least out the gate, Sony has already lost the narrative on this one. The comparison is now Xbox One S vs PS4 Pro instead of the Slim, in which the cheaper console has actual and perceived advantages over the more expensive one.

For the average consumer that only somewhat follows gaming news, they see:

Xbox One S
$300
More powerful than Xbox One, faster load times, higher framerate
Upscales all games to 4K
Plays 4K bluray

PS4 Pro
$400
More powerful than PS4, games need to be patched
Some patched games play worse
Not quite native 4K games
No 4K bluray

I'm happy with my Pro, but they fumbled this one and are being carried forward by the momentum of the PS4 brand.

The pro also upscales everything to 4k...And has quite a few very native 4k games...Not just the "not quite" kind...

 

[Aceofspades]

At least out the gate, Sony has already lost the narrative on this one. The comparison is now Xbox One S vs PS4 Pro instead of the Slim, in which the cheaper console has actual and perceived advantages over the more expensive one.

For the average consumer that only somewhat follows gaming news, they see:

Xbox One S
$300
More powerful than Xbox One, faster load times, higher framerate
Upscales all games to 4K
Plays 4K bluray

PS4 Pro
$400
More powerful than PS4, games need to be patched
Some patched games play worse
Not quite native 4K games
No 4K bluray

I'm happy with my Pro, but they fumbled this one and are being carried forward by the momentum of the PS4 brand.

What a horseshit comparison full of misinformation, I won't even bother to correct you here

 

[Nostremitus]

What a horseshit comparison full of misinformation, I won't even bother to correct you here

The poster didn't say that's the reality, it's the perception based on marketing to the average consumer.

 

[III-V]

The poster didn't say that's the reality, it's the perception based on marketing to the average consumer.

I think the poster should have said something like, these are the common misconceptions.

EDIT: and another common misconception is that the X1S is a 4K gaming box.

 

[The Artisan]

I think people are confused here... Upscaling is the same thing your TV already does when it stretches anything sub-4K to fit the screen. That's all the PS4 Pro does for regular Bluray.

It doesn't make them 4K it anything... It just upscales...

Well yeah you're just breaking down what upscaling is the point would be that watching blu Ray on a 4ktv running on a pro would be nicer than watching it on a regular Ps4

 

[Metfanant]

I think people are confused here... Upscaling is the same thing your TV already does when it stretches anything sub-4K to fit the screen. That's all the PS4 Pro does for regular Bluray.

It doesn't make them 4K it anything... It just upscales...

Not all upscaling is created equal...There are definitely ways to do it better than others...And it shouldn't be too hard to imagine the PS4 Pro does a better job than most TVs...

 

[MazeHaze]

Well yeah you're just breaking down what upscaling is the point would be that watching blu Ray on a 4ktv running on a pro would be nicer than watching it on a regular Ps4

That isn't really true, especially if you have a sony or samsung tv. The tv already has a processor built in that upscales the image. There's a chance that if you have a shitty 4k tv, the upscaler in the pro is probably better. If you have a decent tv though, you aren't gonna see a difference between pro and og when it comes to blu ray, as the tvs upscaler will do the job just fine.

 

[Izuna]

What a horseshit comparison full of misinformation, I won't even bother to correct you here

He's talking about the narrative. I know a few people who see it this way.

 

[Aske]

Is there actually data, that supports the idea of substantial amount of potential Pro buyers deciding to buy S instead due to the UHD player?

This is silly because for most of the people who are buying a Xbox One S over the PS4 Pro 4K games isn't important so Xbox One S would still be the 1st choice for them because it would still be the cheaper UHD Blu-ray player.

Not at all my point. I'm saying many 4K TV owners will buy Xbones they otherwise would not have, despite many of them also owning Pros, for the UHD BD player. In those latter houses the PS4 is now competing for attention with 'Bones under the same TV.


Edit: "I have a brand new 4K TV. I want to look at all the 4K content I can. Guess I'm buying (or perhaps already own) a PS4 Pro, or using a PC for the prettiest games. But fuck, looks like I need another box to play UHD Blu-rays, which are at this moment by far the best looking 4K things to feed my TV, and a significant third source of 4K content after streaming and games. Guess I could get a standalone player...but fuck it, I'll buy an Xbone."

That was me, and plenty of other people too. PS3 may have been a Trojan horse for Blu-ray, but the Xbone S is now a Trojan horse for the Xbox ecosystem - including Scorpio going forward. That's why Sony should have slapped a UHD BD player in the Pro: not merely because people might choose to buy an Xbone S instead, but because any 4K TV owner who wants to watch the best-looking 4K movies now has a great reason to pick one up, even as a second console. Even with no real prior interest in the Xbox this gen, these people will probably check out the exclusive games their new UHD Blu-ray player can run. I sure did.

With a decent trade-in program, I'll almost certainly upgrade to a Scorpio now too, and if that system's far more powerful than my Pro, that's where I'm going to play my third party games. I'd be paying much less attention to the Scorpio if the lack of 4K BD playback hadn't converted me to platform agnosticism; not to mention buying the S already paid for a chunk of the the Scorpio since I can trade up.

I'm not saying this will be common. I'm saying the Xbox brand gained a shitload of mindshare just because the Pro is missing what is clearly a significant and expected feature for anyone with any interest in watching UHD discs.

 

[CrispyBoar]

It's a shame. And all just to save some money.

If Microsoft can do it with the Xbox One S, then Sony surely could.

 

[Kayant]

It's a shame. And all just to save some money.

If Microsoft can do it with the Xbox One S, then Sony surely could.

When you have different goals/budgets, etc that's not necessarily the case.

 

[CrispyBoar]

When you have different goals/budgets, etc that's not necessarily the case.

I know, but it's still disappointing to me as well as with a lot of people in this thread.

The only reason I'm even buying the PS4 Pro in the first place, is because that I have yet to own a PS4. If I had a PS4 earlier, I wouldn't even bother upgrading.

 

[jryi]

There's a weirdly inconsistent narrative going on here. On one hand we have this:

The way I look at it is I own a PS4 and have two choices:

1) Buy a Pro to replace my PS4 and play the same games with moderate improvements

Or

2) Buy an Xbox One S to live side by side and increase the available games that you can play and gain 4K UHD Blu ray movies

So 4K is important enough to buy a separate console that plays 4K movies but not 4K games, but...

Maybe because some people don't appreciate to have dozens of devices under their TV...

4K isn't important enough to buy a separate, cheaper player that plays 4K movies.

I'm still not convinced that Sony has lost nearly a signigicant number of sales by not including UHD BD player in Pro.

 

[Aske]

Clearly there are different kinds of consumers with different priorities. But everyone likes having more features, and it doesn't look good for the Pro to position itself as a 4K console with an optical drive that won't play 4K movies. Compound that with the features offered by the Xbone S, and the fact that historically Sony systems have always had optical drives which facilitated media playback as well as games. Sony dropped the ball.

 

[jryi]

Clearly there are different kinds of consumers with different priorities. But everyone likes having more features, and it doesn't look good for the Pro to position itself as a 4K console with an optical drive that won't play 4K movies. Compound that with the features offered by the Xbone S, and the fact that historically Sony systems have always had optical drives which facilitated media playback as well as games. Sony dropped the ball.

That is a largely false assumption that leads to featuritis. Focusing on honing the core functionalities has been proven to be far more effective marketing tactic than spreading your resources in order to offer a wide range of mediocre features.

Sure, if the question is posed as "would you rather have X or not X", most consumers tend to say that they'd rather have the feature. But how much are they willing to pay for said feature, and would they in the end use it at all are completely different questions.

 

[The Beard]

What a horseshit comparison full of misinformation, I won't even bother to correct you here

Some of the bullet points are ridiculous for "uninformed consumers". I do think there is a pretty big segment of people who think that the S and the Pro are direct competitors though, and all they know is that the S is $100-$150 cheaper, and it has a significant feature that the Pro doesn't.

Also, I've seen a ton of Xbone S commercials on TV. "The only console with a UHD BluRay player. 4K this, and 4K that."

I don't even think I've seen a PS4 Pro commercial TV.

 

[The Artisan]

That isn't really true, especially if you have a sony or samsung tv. The tv already has a processor built in that upscales the image. There's a chance that if you have a shitty 4k tv, the upscaler in the pro is probably better. If you have a decent tv though, you aren't gonna see a difference between pro and og when it comes to blu ray, as the tvs upscaler will do the job just fine.

so if i have a dope 4KTV then having a Ps4 pro is pointless (for movies).

 

[Big Blue]

Clearly there are different kinds of consumers with different priorities. But everyone likes having more features, and it doesn't look good for the Pro to position itself as a 4K console with an optical drive that won't play 4K movies. Compound that with the features offered by the Xbone S, and the fact that historically Sony systems have always had optical drives which facilitated media playback as well as games. Sony dropped the ball.

The point is that Sony dropped the ball for niche market. The sales numbers prove that.

 

[Nostremitus]

so if i have a dope 4KTV then having a Ps4 pro is pointless (for movies).

yes

 

[Kayant]

I know, but it's still disappointing to me as well as with a lot of people in this thread.

The only reason I'm even buying the PS4 Pro in the first place, is because that I have yet to own a PS4. If I had a PS4 earlier, I wouldn't even bother upgrading.

Yh I feel you. Personally am the opposite 😜 still haven't gotten a PS4 also but I don't watch physical media or movies in general so this wouldn't have impacted my decision.

 

[FyreWulff]

Does PS4 Pro upscales the 1080 BRs to 4K? If so how does it compare to 1080 vs upscaled? Is it a good improvement from 1080?

it should look exactly the same since 4k is exactly 4 1080p screens. just an even x2 pixel increase on each axis

 

[Ludono]

I think you are confusing average game enthusiast or forum member to average gamer.

Lol...no average gamer is going to DF to find out TLOU runs 10 fps lower in one of the Pro modes etc...

Likely, a very basic, "Pro is a more powerful PS4 and goes along with a 4K TV" is about as deep as the 'average gamer' logic will go. All those bullet points is way more digging/reading than a large portion of the gaming audience will ever follow through on. It's not that average gamers are dumb, but choose to be uninformed because things like frame rate or native versus non native is not important to them.

Yeah, my dorm mate has a PS4 and plays on it nearly every day (Fifa, Battlefield and COD haha). He asked me about the Pro since it apparently "makes you run Fifa better" hahahhahahahaa

 

[The Artisan]

yes

well, fuck.

 

[BradleyLove]

so if i have a dope 4KTV then having a Ps4 pro is pointless (for movies).

Maybe? Depends on what has the better scalar. There's no hard rule around this really. Try both and see what you prefer.

 

[The Artisan]

Maybe? Depends on what has the better scalar. There's no hard rule around this really. Try both and see what you prefer.

I already got a Ps4 pro. Just waiting on a dope deal for a dope 4KTV. I know which one I want.

Can the two upscaling mechanism combine for a better effect?

 

[Dr.Acula]

Sony really pushed adoption of DVD and BluRay with the PS3 and PS4. 4k is not popular because of a lack of support. If you build it they will come. I just wonder if Sony doesn't want 4k discs to become popular. Also nobody look into a mirror and whisper jeff_rigby three times.

 

[BradleyLove]

I already got a Ps4 pro. Just waiting on a dope deal for a dope 4KTV. I know which one I want.

Can the two upscaling mechanism combine for a better effect?

No. If Pro upscale then the TV will be receiving a "native" 4K signal. Unless you want to keep switching your Pro from 4K output to 1080p whenever you view a bluray, you're probably better off sticking with Pro performing the upscale.

I mean, unless you're a mega cinephile, I doubt you'd be able to notice any difference at normal viewing distance.

 

[Dr.Acula]

it should look exactly the same since 4k is exactly 4 1080p screens. just an even x2 pixel increase on each axis

Actually no, because there are other algorithms for upscaling and image than just doubling the pixels.

Here's an example of a technique employed by Valve.

Here's an article talking about how upscaling is approached in games and video.

https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/235274-how-sonys-playstation-4-pro-does-4k-without-delivering-4k

 

[StudioTan]

4K isn't important enough to buy a separate, cheaper player that plays 4K movies.

I'm still not convinced that Sony has lost nearly a signigicant number of sales by not including UHD BD player in Pro.

I think people forget that many (most?) 4K TVs only have a single input available for 4k/HDR signals. So if you want to have multiple devices that need HDCP 2.2 then you'd need some sort of switcher, either a recent amplifier or a dedicated switch which adds to the cost significantly. That's why people want devices that can do more than one thing.

 

[EmiPrime]

I think people forget that many (most?) 4K TVs only have a single input available for 4k/HDR signals. So if you want to have multiple devices that need HDCP 2.2 then you'd need some sort of switcher, either a recent amplifier or a dedicated switch which adds to the cost significantly. That's why people want devices that can do more than one thing.

But why would you not have a 4K receiver if UHD Blurays are so important? The HDMI inputs argument isn't valid.

 

[Adam Tyner]

But why would you not have a 4K receiver if UHD Blurays are so important?

Eh, I'd bet that the overwhelming majority of people who buy regular ol' high definition Blu-ray discs don't have HD receivers. Wouldn't surprise me at all if it's the same for UHD BD and UHD-friendly receivers.

 

[EmiPrime]

Eh, I'd bet that the overwhelming majority of people who buy regular ol' high definition Blu-ray discs don't have HD receivers. Wouldn't surprise me at all if it's the same for UHD BD and UHD-friendly receivers.

I'm sure that's the case too but that sort of person probably isn't going to be up in arms about PS4 Pro not being the all in one box with UHD Bluray. They probably don't even know how to and will never enable HDR on their HDMI inputs either so that HDMI input anxiety isn't there.

 

[StudioTan]

But why would you not have a 4K receiver if UHD Blurays are so important? The HDMI inputs argument isn't valid.

LOTS of people don't have receivers as most people value good picture over good audio. Soundbars are very popular. Also, even if you have a receiver and want to use it as a switcher you'd need a new one as HDCP 2.2 is recent.

I had to upgrade mine because I have to output to both my 4K TV and 4K projector but if I didn't have the projector I would plug the XB1S directly into the HDCP 2.2 input on my TV and either use ARC or optical out.

I'm sure that's the case too but that sort of person probably isn't going to be up in arms about PS4 Pro not being the all in one box with UHD Bluray. They probably don't even know how to and will never enable HDR on their HDMI inputs either so that HDMI input anxiety isn't there.

People still like less clutter under their TVs or in their AV racks. Having to add a second device when one should do is never ideal.

 

[EmiPrime]

LOTS of people don't have receivers as most people value good picture over good audio. Soundbars are very popular. Also, even if you have a receiver and want to use it as a switcher you'd need a new one as HDCP 2.2 is recent.

I had to upgrade mine because I have to output to both my 4K TV and 4K projector but if I didn't have the projector I would plug the XB1S directly into the HDCP 2.2 input on my TV and either use ARC or optical out.



People still like less clutter under their TVs or in their AV racks. Having to add a second device when one should do is never ideal.

I see what you mean and I know it's not ideal, I just don't think it's that big a deal.

My current situation is almost a worst case scenario (waiting for a deal on a certain Denon 4K receiver) but I have the PS4 Pro and Xbox One S plugged into my 2 HDR compatible HDMI inputs and my old 1080p receiver plugged into one of the standard HDMI inputs leaving me with still 1 free HDMI input on the TV.

 

[Big Blue]

But why would you not have a 4K receiver if UHD Blurays are so important? The HDMI inputs argument isn't valid.

Beat me to it.

 

[Aske]

But why would you not have a 4K receiver if UHD Blurays are so important? The HDMI inputs argument isn't valid.

Because not everyone uses a receiver, yet still wants to play UHD discs. Actually very few people I know IRL have receivers, yet every person who owns an HDTV has a Blu-ray player. I don't have a receiver, just a 5.1 setup connected via optical (which sounds great, and which I have no desire to replace).


We're going in circles. Some people think Sony were smart to cut out whatever costs they would have incurred from including 4K Blu-ray playback in the Pro. Others don't. And no one is suggesting Pro hardware sales are anything other than superb. But I don't believe Sony are happy about the massive boost in mindshare the Xbone S has received as a result of its included 4K Blu-ray drive.

As I've said, it's not about harm to Sony's product. It's about longer term harm to the PlayStation brand, because the UHD disc playback in the Xbone S has suddenly given MS's platform a major boost in NA and Europe. Sony should have owned the high end console market until the Scorpio released, and kept their customers content with PS products so they remained disinterested in the Xbox platform. Instead, the competition is seen as offering a major feature which they don't.

 

[BradleyLove]

Because not everyone uses a receiver, yet still wants to play UHD discs. Actually very few people I know IRL have receivers, yet every person who owns an HDTV has a Blu-ray player. I don't have a receiver, just a 5.1 setup connected via optical (which sounds great, and which I have no desire to replace).


We're going in circles. Some people think Sony were smart to cut out whatever costs they would have incurred from including 4K Blu-ray playback in the Pro. Others don't. And no one is suggesting Pro hardware sales are anything other than superb. But I don't believe Sony are happy about the massive boost in mindshare the Xbone S has received as a result of its included 4K Blu-ray drive.

As I've said, it's not about harm to Sony's product. It's about longer term harm to the PlayStation brand, because the UHD disc playback in the Xbone S has suddenly given MS's platform a major boost in NA and Europe. Sony should have owned the high end console market until the Scorpio released, and kept their customers content with PS products so they remained disinterested in the Xbox platform. Instead, the competition is seen as offering a major feature which they don't.

"Mindshare"? "Major boost"? How can you type this with a straight face?

PlayStation is coming off its best ever Black Friday, won November NPD, nullified any minuscule gains MS made since the S released and recently announced 50m sold through.

Some of the stuff being posted in this thread is amazing.

 

[Metfanant]

Yeah, my dorm mate has a PS4 and plays on it nearly every day (Fifa, Battlefield and COD haha). He asked me about the Pro since it apparently "makes you run Fifa better" hahahhahahahaa

What's so funny? The Pro runs all 3 of his favorite games better than the OG PS4...

 

[KodiakGT]

"Mindshare"? "Major boost"? How can you type this with a straight face?

PlayStation is coming off its best ever Black Friday, won November NPD, nullified any minuscule gains MS made since the S released and recently announced 50m sold through.

Some of the stuff being posted in this thread is amazing.

Actually, PS is still running around a 125k deficit in NA since the release of the S, even with the best ever black friday. But don't let the facts stop your narrative.

That being said it will be interesting to see what the new trend is post holidays, to see if his point about the UHD drive holds any water. I would guess PS4/Pro will win most months like this year and who knows once Scorpio arrives.

 

[onQ123]

Actually, PS is still running around a 125k deficit in NA since the release of the S, even with the best ever black friday. But don't let the facts stop your narrative.

That being said it will be interesting to see what the new trend is post holidays, to see if his point about the UHD drive holds any water. I would guess PS4/Pro will win most months like this year and who knows once Scorpio arrives.

You know the world is bigger than North America right?

 

[MazeHaze]

I already got a Ps4 pro. Just waiting on a dope deal for a dope 4KTV. I know which one I want.

Can the two upscaling mechanism combine for a better effect?

Which TV are you getting? I can tell you right now that if it's a samsung, sony, lg, or vizio, and you paid more than 500 dollars for it, it's upscaler will be on par with the pro.

 

[StudioTan]

You know the world is bigger than North America right?

He specifically mentioned NPD which tracks NA sales.

 

[Pathfinder]

You know the world is bigger than North America right?

Why do some people ask this question when NPD and North America is specifically what is being referenced?

 

[The Artisan]

Which TV are you getting? I can tell you right now that if it's a samsung, sony, lg, or vizio, and you paid more than 500 dollars for it, it's upscaler will be on par with the pro.

i want the 49 inch version of the sony xbr 800d series.