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[Lunatic_Gamer]

From HDTVTest:

The "Auto HDR Tone Mapping" feature on the PS5 - first described in Sony's "Perfect for Playstation 5" campaign - is now operational, following a firmware update on compatible Sony TVs, namely those with the BRAVIA XR processor (Sony X90J, X95J, A80J, A90J & Z9J on firmware v6.4284), as well as last year's Sony X900H or XH90 (firmware version v6.1534).

Timestamps: ===========
0:00 Earlier than expected!
0:35 TV firmware update
0:57 Reverse engineering
1:57 Why it's not ideal
2:50 Manual adjustments
3:45 Black Ops Cold War comparison
4:35 Effect on non-HGiG games
5:21 VRR
6:32 My recommended settings

Since we filmed this video, the PS5 is now defaulting to 15 clicks on the 2nd [Adjust HDR] screen on the X900H, which in theory should denote a MaxTML of nearly 1000 nits. However, in reality the MaxTML was still 2000 nits at the backend, which can be verified by entering an HGiG game and exiting, then checking the [Adjust HDR] settings again... it still took 20 clicks to reach the bottom on the 2nd screen.

With the PS5's automatic HGiG adjustments on the Sony X900H or XH90, all our findings of clipped highlights, washed-out picture and elevated blacks are still valid, which is why we still advise manual adjustments.

 

[kyliethicc]

Summary - he and Sony disagree a bit on the exact ideal 3 settings (min, max, ffmax) for calibrating HDR on the Sony X90H.

 

[dotnotbot]

Summary - he and Sony disagree a bit on the exact ideal 3 settings (min, max, ffmax) for calibrating HDR on the Sony X90H.

It's not just a bit. Those 5 clicks make a difference of 1000 nits off the target.
Sony's settings are objectively way off (easy to prove as they noticeably clip highlights, whole point of this adjustment is to avoid clipping highlights).

 

[NotCentered]

Summary - he and Sony disagree a bit on the exact ideal 3 settings (min, max, ffmax) for calibrating HDR on the Sony X90H.

not exactly :
Vincent thinks black should be black and that you shouldn't use 2000nits on a tv able to do 1000nits
Sony thinks black is some kind of dark grey and that a TV is made to burn the picture with crazy nits out of it's range

Only one of them is right

 

[b0uncyfr0]

Sony is making a mess of this.

 

[DeepEnigma]

not exactly :
Vincent thinks black should be black and that you shouldn't use 2000nits on a tv able to do 1000nits
Sony thinks black is some kind of dark grey and that a TV is made to burn the picture with crazy nits out of it's range

Only one of them is right

Um, that would be a disagreement then, innit

 

[xion4360]

Um, that would be a disagreement then, innit

There is such a thing as correct and incorrect when it comes to this you know. Its not a matter of opinion.

 

[DeepEnigma]

There is such a thing as correct and incorrect when it comes to this you know. Its not a matter of opinion.

But again, they don't agree, innit

Why is it so hard for people to just read and comprehend language?

That is all kyliethicc said, was that they disagree.

 

[xion4360]

But again, they don't agree, innit

Why is it so hard for people to just read and comprehend language?

That is all kyliethicc said, was that they disagree.

So its ok sony did it wrong because its just a disagreement? Thats not how being wrong works. Your comprehension comment is laughable.

 

[FrankWza]

This is all a lie!!!!!!

 

[kyliethicc]

not exactly :
Vincent thinks black should be black and that you shouldn't use 2000nits on a tv able to do 1000nits
Sony thinks black is some kind of dark grey and that a TV is made to burn the picture with crazy nits out of it's range

Only one of them is right

Vinny - "Use 0.000 nits on an LCD that can't display true 0.000 nit blacks due to its backlight."
Sony - "Use 0.008 nits on an LCD that can't display true 0.000 nit blacks due to its backlight."

They disagree by less than 0.1%. Aka, their preferred minTML values are 99.2% the exact same.


Or as you said, "black" and "some kind of dark gray" lol.

 

[OmegaSupreme]

Always trust Vincent. Display tech is science. He's correct.

 

[xion4360]

Vinny - "Use 0.000 nits on an LCD that can't display true 0.000 nit blacks due to its backlight."
Sony - "Use 0.008 nits on an LCD that can't display true 0.000 nit blacks due to its backlight."

They disagree by less than 0.1%. Aka, their preferred minTML values are 99.2% the exact same.


Or as you said, "black" and "some kind of dark gray" lol.

Thats clearly not the big issue... besides that small difference in min does make a difference as demonstrated

 

[kyliethicc]

Thats clearly not the big issue... besides that small difference in min does make a difference as demonstrated

A difference he needs to manipulate his camera for to be able to demonstrate.

Most people would say it looks the exact same to their eyes.

And the 1000 vs 2000 nits thing for maxTML seemed to be an error. As he writes, Sony has since changed it to 1000 nits.

 

[jaysius]

Always trust Vincent. Display tech is science. He's correct.

He's even quick to do a "mybad" when he's proven wrong.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

 

[xion4360]

A difference he needs to manipulate his camera for to be able to demonstrate.

Most people would say it looks the exact same to their eyes.

And the 1000 vs 2000 nits thing for maxTML seemed to be an error. As he writes, Sony has since changed it to 1000 nits.

Ahh so they fixed it...because they were wrong

 

[FrankWza]

Vinnys about to go out like Willy lump lump

 

[kyliethicc]

Ahh so they fixed it...because they were wrong

Eh, you realize its all subjective right?

The entire reason they allow user to change the 3 values is because each person has their own experience and opinion on what looks best. Different eyes, different lighting conditions in each room, etc. If their was some perfect objective value to use for everyone, they wouldn't even allow for any user adjustment.

 

[xion4360]

Eh, you realize its all subjective right?

The entire reason they allow user to change the 3 values is because each person has their own experience and opinion on what looks best. Different eyes, different lighting conditions in each room, etc. If their was some perfect objective value to use for everyone, they wouldn't even allow for any user adjustment.

Its not subjective at all to blow out your picture, its just incorrect. the value adjustment is there because theres many tv models and brands with different performance levels, and they need to be adjusted.

You can be wrong and like it but thats different from something being a matter of taste like what foods you like.

 

[ManaByte]

According to the update notes, X90J doesn’t get VRR. MOTHERFUCKERS.

 

[Xaero Gravity]

Vincent thinks black should be black

Pretty racist there tbhimo

 

[AGRacing]

I'm glad the rest of us have to wait for Sony to figure out their own TV's so we can finally get VRR on our LG OLEDs where it belongs.

 

[ManaByte]

Yup. Updated my X90J and no VRR. Fuck them.

 

[thebigmanjosh]

A difference he needs to manipulate his camera for to be able to demonstrate.

Most people would say it looks the exact same to their eyes.

And the 1000 vs 2000 nits thing for maxTML seemed to be an error. As he writes, Sony has since changed it to 1000 nits.

I don't know if they fixed it because it set my a90J to 20 clicks (2000 nits) for the first two steps, and 1 click (124 nits) for minimum, which makes no sense for an OLED.

 

[DeepEnigma]

So its ok sony did it wrong because its just a disagreement? Thats not how being wrong works. Your comprehension comment is laughable.

But kyliethicc didn't say that tho, all he said was that they disagree, and people pile on as if he is saying one is more gospel than the other.

Projection 101.

 

[dano1]

Yup. Updated my X90J and no VRR. Fuck them.

My X900H just got the VRR update last night Try and check for an update again.
Of course the PS5 needs it now.

 

[ManaByte]

My X900H just got the VRR update last night Try and check for an update again.
Of course the PS5 needs it now.

Nope this was the new update. It specifically says the X91J gets VRR but not the X90J. Read the update notes.

 

[Insane Metal]

Pretty racist there tbhimo

I SAY BAN HIM!!!!!

Oops wrong forum

 

[Gameplaylover]

I'm really glad that i replaced my Sony FALD with a Samsung Q90.

 

[martino]

it's bad but the good news is that it's must not be hard to fix with an update

 

[dano1]

Nope this was the new update. It specifically says the X91J gets VRR but not the X90J. Read the update notes.

Well hopefully they do the right thing soon. I looked through other forums and did see anything about that model Not getting it. But different roll out dates.

 

[Kilau]

Why would they skip X90J? Sony is so infuriating.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Why would they skip X90J? Sony is so infuriating.

I'm going with different rollout dates.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Does this shit only work on Sony TVs?

Does Sony even have plans to support the standard?

 

[Kilau]

I'm going with different rollout dates.

Just seems odd to skip a specific feature for one model.

 

[Pagusas]

Vinny - "Use 0.000 nits on an LCD that can't display true 0.000 nit blacks due to its backlight."
Sony - "Use 0.008 nits on an LCD that can't display true 0.000 nit blacks due to its backlight."

They disagree by less than 0.1%. Aka, their preferred minTML values are 99.2% the exact same.


Or as you said, "black" and "some kind of dark gray" lol.

A 0.1% difference in display tech when many of us are running high end screens is indeed a big deal. Additionally many lcd fald screens need a true 0 nit brightness input to completely turn off the back lighting and get the max quality from them.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Just seems odd to skip a specific feature for one model.

Pretty sure they have it in the Asian regions right now, just not US yet.

 

[ManaByte]

Pretty sure they have it in the Asian regions right now, just not US yet.

Why include the PS5 update in this but not VRR for one model?

 

[DeepEnigma]

Why include the PS5 update in this but not VRR for one model?

Maybe they found a bug last minute on that specific model, or someone messed up with adding it to the driver chain. The chipset is the same as those other TVs mentioned.

 

[Kuranghi]

He says in the video but FALD LCDs usually need 0-nit pixels to be able to turn off their zones if they are following the proper curves, so even a tiny amount about 0 will mean they won't turn off and will be at their minimum the TV allows. Which in this case could be a lot higher than 0.008 nits, ~3x higher than what the TV can do ideally so it would probably be noticeable in a dark room. My TV can do 0.29 nits minimum which isn't as good as a X900H and the black floor is noticeable in HDR films in dark, challenging scenes even with tons of dimming zones.

Having said that, now the 2000 vs 1000 nits thing is already fixed it can be seen as a personal preference. I think most games wouldn't be that affected by it but some might be noticeably imo less good with raised black level if they are trying to show something coming out of pure blackness as its going to defeat one of the main reasons you bought an OLED or FALD LCD. It will cause different problems on OLED as the black level won't jump up to the minimum like the LCD but it will lead to more near black flashing/corruption.

This would be terrible in Hellblade for example, which relies on having a perfect black floor to avoid grey swirling artifacts in the darkness. I think having it on 0 is best personally because whenever I've found (super rare) black crush in HGIG PS5 games like Miles Morales if I went to the HDR calibration screen and set the black floor up 2 clicks (which is when I can see it in a pitch black room, straight on to the TV, if I wait for like 1 minute in the dark (lol) I can see it at 1 click but I figured thats not reasonable use so I'd probably crush shadows for my non adjusted eyes) those moments are not fixed in any way and must just be artistic oversight.

I'm seeing this in Marvel's Guardians of the Galaxy as well sometimes, but its like 3-4 moments so far so not a big deal either. Just when you enter an interior a few times it had slightly crushed shadows, this is usually during in-game cutscenes with the fixed cameras rather than the ones it cuts to so its probably also artistic oversight where they don't spend weeks perfecting the light source angles and shadows, etc.

 

[PaintTinJr]

Vinny - "Use 0.000 nits on an LCD that can't display true 0.000 nit blacks due to its backlight."
Sony - "Use 0.008 nits on an LCD that can't display true 0.000 nit blacks due to its backlight."

They disagree by less than 0.1%. Aka, their preferred minTML values are 99.2% the exact same.


Or as you said, "black" and "some kind of dark gray" lol.

Although that will completely change the total measurable error of the theoretical true signal - where nothing is clipped - to the dynamic range reproduction that is compromised differently on OLED and FALD - and probably by a larger percentage difference than 0.1%.

Sony's solution will most likely start from the settings that will produce the least measurable error scientifically speaking, whereas Vincent's is likely based on intuition of what he believes looks the best overall for the film content he's most familiar.

As you say, it is a disagreement and the settings are changeable because all default settings would be a trade-off and be less than optimal for the eyes of any given viewer.

 

[Jack Uzi]

Always trust Vincent. Display tech is science. He's correct.

Didn’t someone working on the Mandalorian call him out for being wrong?

 

[RoboFu]

All auto hdr has been bad in my experience.

 

[Kuranghi]

All auto hdr has been bad in my experience.

Yeah agreed, but this isn't that, its sort of an automatic HDR calibration between recent Sony TV sets and the PS5 so you don't need to set full frame, max and min luminance manually on the calibration screen. It (theoretically) will just tell the PS5 the right values so you don't have to guess.

So when all games are using HGIG (Thats the only games that take advantage of the PS5 system calibration values, otherwise its calibrated in-game or just fixed) then you wouldn't need to worry about calibrating HDR for each game anymore. Right now its mostly first party games that use the PS5 system calibration, like Miles Morales and I think R&C:Rift Apart.

So its a good step in the right direction.

 

[DeepSpace5D]

I used Vincent’s original video on how he recommends the HDR tone mapping to be for PS5, and my games look phenomenal.

Basically on the first adjustment, go up until the sun becomes completely invisible, and go one down from that. The second adjustment should be pretty much right where you want it based on the first one. And then turn the third adjustment all the way down as far as it goes.

 

[Kilau]

Well pointless update was a mistake, TV is noticeably sluggish on menus and apps now.

Thanks Sony.

 

[Putonahappyface]