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[Topher]

100%

I know many here get sick of some of my stories while Ybarra was there but yes indeed they honestly thought every single game would be better on the Seres X just due to that TF number

I also said this before it was before the launch of this gen that Ybarra brought up to us in chat that MS got wind of the PS5 Pro (without looking back at exact dates it was sometime in 2019) and Ybarra even said something along the lines it was a panic move on Sony's part to "catch" the Series X

Even the lead architect on the Series X Jason Ronald was in voice with Ybarra and a few of us watching the road to PS5 and Ronald and Ybarra both laughed at the PS5 SSD saying they blew too much R&D on that and not enough on brute power

I assume its very likely why those at Xbox did not have a pro console counter ready (even though they researched that option at one point)

It was pretty obvious in the leaked email Phil Spencer sent to Nadella after the Cerny talk. He was damn near giddy. Stark contrast from his admission of defeat last year after the Redfall debacle. I'm still hopeful for an Xbox turnaround myself. Mainly because I firmly believe that Sony needs direct competition to keep them from getting lazy and complacent.

 

[mckmas8808]

They don't have visionaries there and if someone likes to inject really new ideas they usually don't accept those people

I wonder if MS thinks those type of people could get in the way of assured profits. Like......why get in the way of guaranteed profits with new ideas that may be too risky to take.

 

[DeepEnigma]

They don't have visionaries there and if someone likes to inject really new ideas they usually don't accept those people

Like I said in the past on here, they're every bit a "club culture" that they've always been since their inception.

Which is why intern groomed to exec's (lifers) like Phil, can continue to fail upward. His magnum opus out of his own mouth, his career achievement was doing what MS Corp. has always done, buy up other's success (Acti-Blizz).

Where any other CEO or president of a gaming brand, would be that of building up the brand larger than it has ever been through mindshare and hardware/software sales, their IPs, leaping over the competition. But nope, his crown jewel was the typical MS buying out storied publishers, software, IPs, hardware, etc..

 

[mckmas8808]

It was pretty obvious in the leaked email Phil Spencer sent to Nadella after the Cerny talk. He was damn near giddy. Stark contrast from his admission of defeat last year after the Redfall debacle. I'm still hopeful for an Xbox turnaround myself. Mainly because I firmly believe that Sony needs direct competition to keep them from getting lazy and complacent.

But surely you see the writing on the wall, right? What can you honestly expect from Xbox going forward? Do you really believe this supposed half console\half Steambox will be the thing that powers them forward?

 

[Topher]

But surely you see the writing on the wall, right? What can you honestly expect from Xbox going forward? Do you really believe this supposed half console\half Steambox will be the thing that powers them forward?

Well....I did say I was "hopeful". Not claiming my hopes are realistic by any means. Obviously I have no idea what Microsoft has in store for their hardware. If they can sell a hybrid device then that makes more sense to me then continuing what they are currently doing which clearly isn't working. The biggest question in my mind is whether or not Microsoft has the talent needed on the Xbox team to create something that will appeal to PC gamers as well as being able to maintain its place in the living room at the same time. Bit of a gamble either way.

 

[Crayon]

No that's not possible because it runs in games at 120fps, meaning the frame time limit on PSSR is way below half of the 8.4ms, meaning at worst case guestimation a 60fps game is using 10% of a frame render time for PSSR on the Pro.

After the good sales of the Pro, and it being the new console kid on the block to pixel count, I suspect PSSR will get a PS5 release too, and will just need native to be in the 720p, 900p range for 4K60, because without the dual issue feature keeping PSSR to a presumed 2ms frame cost on Pro will need it to steal twice that on PS5, and so will need lower native to claw back that frame time.

Do you mean a new model? That would seem pretty far out, but it might be a way to price reduce....

 

[64bitmodels]

But nope, his crown jewel was the typical MS buying out storied publishers, software, IPs, hardware, etc..

People like him deserve a janitor position not head of Xbox studios. Guy has no ideas, no ambition. He ran Xbox into the ground and doesn't really know how to stop.

 

[Radical_3d]

Xbox one X was 6TF and over 4x times stronger than Xbox one (over 3x the PS4). It could render games in native 4k when base console was 900p.

Look where we are now, Alan Wake 2 is less than 900p on Pro. We are evolving... but backwards!

PSSR is game changer, it's the best thing about the console but it's not comparable at all to 3x or 4x more raw power - with jump like that every game would be native 4k without any need for PSSR or DLSS solutions.

Also, GG thinks that they their solution is better so they clearly don't agree with DL devs here.



Remind me what was this bet again? I genuinely don't remember hahaha. You can even find my posts when first rumors appeared, I was always saying that Pro was needed to fix games because developers are constantly fucking up things and here we are - after cross gen ended most big games look like shit on PS5 and Xbox series X.

Sony fucked my interest with ridiculous price and lack od disc drive. Somewhere down the line I will buy this console, probably when Sony drops some big (time) exclusive.

That GTA6 will run 60 fps on the Pro. You said no and I say yes.

 

[xenosys]

Nvidia pioneered AI driven upsampling, Sony and AMD are playing catchup as usual.

... and outlets are giving THEM credit for the tech, like they've just discovered fire.

I do expect the PS6 to have frame gen as part of PSSR, but by then, Nvidia will be onto something else entirely.

 

[AngelMuffin]

 

[bender]

What can you honestly expect from Xbox going forward?

 

[Bojji]

What we've been discussing? Maybe look at the title of the thread.

You're hung up on 1 game that isn't even 800p.

It's not "magic" but it does upscale from a lower than 4k res to an image quality that is comparable to 4k quality, that's a fact. you're trying to disparage it with the use of the word "magic" but you have no problem applying that word for nvidia stuff.

Dlss works down to 1080p, below that upscaling to 4k starts to look bad, they don't offer straight 8xxp to compare but 720p to 4k looks like shit.

Yes, but hasn't it been pointed out many times at this point that this was a decision made by Remedy to add more effects rather than to provide a higher rez, cleaner overall image?

Of course it's remedy, they could probably do 1080p+ with the same settings but opted to increase them. Worth it? We will see when pro launches.

We aren’t getting exponential increases in raw power anymore. Exponential increases in raw power has stagnated, even on PC. Why are we applying a different metric in a mid cycle console upgrade?

AI/ML is the future.

We still get that 50% increase every 2 years on pc. Of course moor's law is dead etc. But Nvidia still is able to brute force through it so far.

That GTA6 will run 60 fps on the Pro. You said no and I say yes.

I hope it will.

But I don't think it will, we will see.

 

[ap_puff]

They don't have visionaries there and if someone likes to inject really new ideas they usually don't accept those people

That's just sad

 

[Topher]

Of course it's remedy, they could probably do 1080p+ with the same settings but opted to increase them. Worth it? We will see when pro launches.

Ok....then we should stop throwing out 800p as if that's because of the hardware, don't you think?

 

[Bojji]

Ok....then we should stop throwing out 800p as if that's because of the hardware, don't you think?

I never said that, I said that developers are already testing limits of the technology even with first games. 1080p is the lowest for dlss for decent image quality on 4k display, below that and it looks bad...

Remedy made the decision to stress test pssr.

 

[Dorfdad]

1 week boys!

And do we know if any replacement side plates from slim work on them yet?

 

[FeralEcho]

Devs will say this as it makes their jobs easier,hence why the optimisation on PC is so abysmal ever since DLSS became popular...

Shitty game is poorly optimized??? No worries pull out artificial frames and resolution and wow,next gen experience,except it's not.

Shit like this is impressive on paper but as evidenced by the PC ports of games it only serves to encourage lazy developers.

It's why Doom Eternal works on a potato at high frames without even needing dlss or fsr while other much less impressive games need frame generation + dlss/fsr to achieve even playable fps. It's pathetic.

Nothing beats raw power and talent,which is why I hate the push for this AI garbage in gaming.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

People are hyping this pssr like it is some game changer. It isn't even as good as dlss.

It’s better in certain regards, worse in others. Its not obvious which one is better to my eye.

 

[mdkirby]

spoken like a true person who hates pc gaming but wasted 1600 dollars on a 4090 to say how much they don't like it. sure bud

Not really, I’ve not bothered for years with pc we i use mac for work, but if you have plenty of disposable income, and use a pc for work, then you would build a silly rig and could very much hate the faff it comes with. I sure did.

 

[Games of Today]

Naw I’d rather duck around with every pc setting I don’t understand and update and downgrade my drivers on a per game basis. Overclocking my cpu / memory and GPU while troubleshooting game crashes and hoping some third party person will release a stutter fix patch or workaround while logging into 15 launchers and accounts to game on…

That said I love my 4090 but pc gaming is a pain in the ass unless you play very few games!

Long live #PSMR

Yep and this is why I have a 4090 PC and a PS5. I'll have my Pro as well in a little bit.

 

[Haint]

No shit Sherlock, Pro's only a 45% raster improvement.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Devs will say this as it makes their jobs easier,hence why the optimisation on PC is so abysmal ever since DLSS became popular...

Shitty game is poorly optimized??? No worries pull out artificial frames and resolution and wow,next gen experience,except it's not.

Shit like this is impressive on paper but as evidenced by the PC ports of games it only serves to encourage lazy developers.

It's why Doom Eternal works on a potato at high frames without even needing dlss or fsr while other much less impressive games need frame generation + dlss/fsr to achieve even playable fps. It's pathetic.

Nothing beats raw power and talent,which is why I hate the push for this AI garbage in gaming.

Incompetent devs will always be incompetent

Competent devs can use AI to make things look even better

I don’t see the issue. It’s a huge improvement regardless of who is using it

 

[onQ123]

the real question is if this kind of tech will lead to poorer optimization practices down the line?

Nope because soon AI will takeover the optimization workload

 

[mayham2199]

They don't have visionaries there and if someone likes to inject really new ideas they usually don't accept those people

Well then maybe you can answer this. How the fuck did they pull off the 360? Other than towards the end of the gen, the 360 was a fantastic console with so much variety and must play games. From JRPGs, to shooters, etc. I bought a PS3 at first when I got back into console gaming and returned it like a month later cause it had no games. Got a 360 and was satisfied the whole time until maybe the last year.

 

[Three]

Dlss works down to 1080p, below that upscaling to 4k starts to look bad, they don't offer straight 8xxp to compare but 720p to 4k looks like shit.

So does PSSR, no? In fact most games are using 1080 or even 1440p upscaled to 4k. So what's the relevance of this one 864p game you're hung up on? Are you arguing it is never comparable to 4k native or are you just saying this one games res is too low? If the latter, so what?

Do you at least agree 1080p-1440p upscaled to 4k looks comparable to 4k native, yes or no?
I would say the answer is yes. You have examples of this on PS5 where games that are native 4k got PSSR updates at 60fps and look comparable or even better than 4k native modes. People can go look at those and come to their own conclusions. Why do you keep mentioning that one game though? It would be like me mentioning kingdom come: deliverance as the barometer for the 6tf xbox one x not being great because it only did 1440p, not even AI upscaled to 4k after but just 1440p.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Well then maybe you can answer this. How the fuck did they pull off the 360?

J Allard was forward thinking and the best Xbox executive. Peter Moore also contributed his industry experience from Dreamcast as an outsider and he was ambitious

 

[Dorfdad]

Yep and this is why I have a 4090 PC and a PS5. I'll have my Pro as well in a little bit.

Same boat. Both have their niche and I love both but shitting on people because they prefer different things is just stupid

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Well then maybe you can answer this. How the fuck did they pull off the 360? Other than towards the end of the gen, the 360 was a fantastic console with so much variety and must play games. From JRPGs, to shooters, etc. I bought a PS3 at first when I got back into console gaming and returned it like a month later cause it had no games. Got a 360 and was satisfied the whole time until maybe the last year.

The 360 had amazing games you could only find on the 360

Then you had the RROD which could be another chapter in a book that strong whispers knew they had issues possibly even before launch but was too deep in to change course but I think they didn't know it would be as bad as it was

 

[JimboJones]

So does PSSR, no? In fact most games are using 1080 or even 1440p upscaled to 4k. So what's the relevance of this one 864p game you're hung up on? Are you arguing it is never comparable to 4k native or are you just saying this one games res is too low? If the latter, so what?

Do you at least agree 1080p-1440p upscaled to 4k looks comparable to 4k native, yes or no?
I would say the answer is yes. You have examples of this on PS5 where games that are native 4k got PSSR updates at 60fps and look comparable or even better than 4k native modes. People can go look at those and come to their own conclusions. Why do you keep mentioning that one game though? It would be like me mentioning kingdom come: deliverance as the barometer for the 6tf xbox one x not being great because it only did 1440p, not even AI upscaled to 4k after but just 1440p.

I think all he's getting at is increases in GPU performance = still very important if you want a decent difference in a next gen or pro model box.

AI upscaling is an important part of the equation moving forward but not the only one, you can't feed these things lower and lower resolutions and expect miracles, I believe he was just using the Alan Wake 2 resolution as an example.

I think most people understand that here but there are some people getting taken for a wee magical ride on the PR hype train .

 

[hinch7]

No shit Sherlock, Pro's only a 45% raster improvement.

I'd argue the massive overhaul in architecture and the RT implementation in the PS5 Pro/RDNA 4 is a bigger game changer.

With AMD's colaboration with Sony, they're finally offering some reasonable raytracing performance. And really, it bout time. They've been years behind. Once next generation comes into swing we can get games build around RT including pathtracing in future titles. Which would give a massive boost in fidelity and a perceivable jump in visuals.

 

[Three]

I think all he's getting at is increases in GPU performance = still very important if you want a decent difference in a next gen or pro model box.

From a box that had AI upscaling to another box that has AI upscaling I agree if you want a decent difference in a next gen box. That's obvious. But he's talking about midgen consoles and the xbox one x. We've gone from a console that had no AI upscaling tech to one which does, for a midgen which offers similar boosts to resolution and image quality as a direct increase in GPU power.

The xbox one x had to do this native because AI upscaling wasn't a thing but it was chasing that same res and image quality only.

 

[Bojji]

So does PSSR, no? In fact most games are using 1080 or even 1440p upscaled to 4k. So what's the relevance of this one 864p game you're hung up on? Are you arguing it is never comparable to 4k native or are you just saying this one games res is too low? If the latter, so what?

Do you at least agree 1080p-1440p upscaled to 4k looks comparable to 4k native, yes or no?
I would say the answer is yes. You have examples of this on PS5 where games that are native 4k got PSSR updates at 60fps and look comparable or even better than 4k native modes. People can go look at those and come to their own conclusions. Why do you keep mentioning that one game though? It would be like me mentioning kingdom come: deliverance as the barometer for the 6tf xbox one x not being great because it only did 1440p, not even AI upscaled to 4k after but just 1440p.

Obviously, I use DLSS for years now and I can accept 1080->4k as decent and "enough" image quality.

Majority of games so far on Pro have that resolution in at least 1080p territory and that's great. Other than AW2 there was also (delayed few months now) AC Shadows with 800p-something resolution.

But you clearly see that developers don't give a fuck? FSR2 ultra performance mode was meant for 8k - to uspscale from 1440p, but yet those dumb fuck devs are using it to upscale to 4k from 720p... Same goes for frame generation - AMD said 60fps minimum, developers are doing it on 30fps games.

I can't even...

You see that some games are dropping to abysmal resolutions on base PS5, is Pro enough to increase base resolution to something that can be decently upscaled by PSSR? Dragon age drops to 500p in performance mode, to what res will it drop on PS5 Pro?

 

[TacoSavage]

 

[nemiroff]

 

[Knightime_X]

I mean thats how dlss works.
Please tell me Sony isn't trying to be apple by "introducing" something pc has already been doing for a while now.

 

[dano1]

Maybe im missing something, but this tech has been around for years? Good that it's coming to consoles finally.

Welcome to the party I guess?

So probably less than 5 percent of PCs have that technology…
100% of PS5 Pros will have it. Big difference!

 

[Three]

Obviously, I use DLSS for years now and I can accept 1080->4k as decent and "enough" image quality.

Majority of games so far on Pro have that resolution in at least 1080p territory and that's great. Other than AW2 there was also (delayed few months now) AC Shadows with 800p-something resolution.

But you clearly see that developers don't give a fuck? FSR2 ultra performance mode was meant for 8k - to uspscale from 1440p, but yet those dumb fuck devs are using it to upscale to 4k from 720p... Same goes for frame generation - AMD said 60fps minimum, developers are doing it on 30fps games.

I can't even...

You see that some games are dropping to abysmal resolutions on base PS5, is Pro enough to increase base resolution to something that can be decently upscaled by PSSR? Dragon age drops to 500p in performance mode, to what res will it drop on PS5 Pro?

As I've said they're more likely to give a fuck of improving image quality easily with PSSR than they are optimising framerate targets with a new GPU. It's a lot easier to add DLSS or PSSR than to scale your game again with a new native res while maintaining framerate targets. A lot of games including GTA5 didn't even get xbox one x enhancements. This is kind of what the DL dev is saying:

"It’s a great initiative as, in the future, this can allow developers to focus slightly less on performance and have bigger creative liberty. If what Sony is proposing will become a new standard, then PSSR could potentially turn out to be even more important than the direct increase in GPU power "

They can get 60fps modes with 4k quality. Dying Light 1 was again 30fps/1440p on Xbox One X, not 4k, not 60fps.

 

[clarky]

So probably less than 5 percent of PCs have that technology…
100% of PS5 Pros will have it. Big difference!

Probably less than 5% of playstation as well if you are count every single playstation in existence, so lets call it a draw.

 

[PaintTinJr]

Do you mean a new model? That would seem pretty far out, but it might be a way to price reduce....

No, just the regular OG PS5 or Slim

There's a technical paper about how the PS5 using ML inference in GoW Ragnarok to be able to convert the PS4's 2048x2048 version textures to Ps5 version 4096x4096 textures in just 8.75ms of PS5 compute, so there's nothing other than the dual issue - doubling of FP16 throughput - and 45% extra compute in the Pro for PSSR to utilize in all likelihood.

The problem would just be a matter of scaling down the workload and maybe lower input 720p inferenced to an output of 1440p that then gets FSR2 scaled up to 4K.

Just doing the numbers 1/4 of a 2K texture is 1024x1024(1M) which is very close to 1280x720(0.92M) in pixel count. and 1/4 of 4K texture output is 2048x2048 (4.2M) which is close in pixel count to 1440p(2880x1440 = 4.1M), so a 720p native to 1440p using PSSR on PS5, along with an FSR2 upscale to 4K should be possible in under 4ms-5ms. so a new PS5 wouldn't be needed unless there is something else needed for PSSR that is specific to the PS5 Pro IMO; and even then I could see a NVME M2 PSSR pass thru adapter option being possible for a PSSR capable NPU.

 

[Skifi28]

I mean thats how dlss works.
Please tell me Sony isn't trying to be apple by "introducing" something pc has already been doing for a while now.

They're introducing to the consoles something that has not existed in the console space before. I don't think they're trying to do whatever you're imagining.

 

[DeepEnigma]

They're introducing to the consoles something that has not existed in the console space before. I don't think they're trying to do whatever you're imagining.

It's not even Sony saying this either, it's a third party dev excited about what a closed box environment can do with this tech.

 

[PaintTinJr]

It's not even Sony saying this either, it's a third party dev excited about what a closed box environment can do with this tech.

And anybody familiar with fur rendering looking at real-time native or DLSS efforts will tell you that PSSR is in a completely different tier of inference rendering for that fx.

 

[Crayon]

I could see a NVME M2 PSSR pass thru adapter option being possible for a PSSR capable NPU.

A 32X !?!!?

Got to say I found your post equal parts fascinating and fantastical. Mostly over my head but very interesting nonetheless.

 

[PaintTinJr]

A 32X !?!!?

Got to say I found your post equal parts fascinating and fantastical. Mostly over my head but very interesting nonetheless.

NVME is a form of PCIe and an interface by which laptops can use external desktop GPUs in an externally powered caddy, so an NPU on an an adapter that still allows for an external M2 SSD is hardly beyond the engineering of Sony.