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[VGEsoterica]

I know a decent amount of people on Gaf own MiSTer FPGA setups, but word hasn't really gotten out yet about the newest PS1 based core from FPGAZumSpass. It's def an awesome development and one that really does some games extra justice on PS1.

Basically it's a 2X clock speed core on the CPU side, taking the native 33.33Mhz clocks from a stock PS1 and running them up to 66.66Mhz. Conveniently vs trying to overclock actual hardware there aren't any true hardware limitations in FPGA logic that would cause the hardware to die...because you aren't dealing with heat dissipation or other electrical issues like you would be on real hardware. FPGA for the win.

But the games on PS1 that have unlocked framerates and ran sluggish? Hugely improved on the new 2X core. 10+ more frames in Quake II, 15+ more frames in the Need for Speed Games...and like 30+ FPS in Re-Volt (a game that ran like a slideshow on real hardware...pretty game though!)

Some games will break at these speeds most likely due to their code breaking with the higher clocks and some games tie their in game speed to the clock speed itself...but Strider 2 at 120% speed feels like an entirely new experience and one you might want to check out

Just one last bit of fun from MiSTer in 2022.

Curious though GAF...what game do you wish ran better on PS1? Because some games just felt hampered by that low 20's/high teens framerate

 

[mansoor1980]

very impressive , although quake 2 does not show the difference that much .
can i do the same with any PS emulator on PC , like double the frame rate and visual upgrades ?

 

[Fafalada]

very impressive , although quake 2 does not show the difference that much .
can i do the same with any PS emulator on PC , like double the frame rate and visual upgrades ?

Depends on the emulators a bit - IIRC not all of them expose overclocking the chipset. But PS1 emulation on PSP/Vita did this(well - it did more than 2x) out of the box - I actually thought Q2 was a full 60fps title on PS1 because I played it first on a PSP.

Visual upgrades with top-of the line PC emus are far more extensive though (subpixel rasterization / perspective correction / texture filtering are all available and pretty much transform the look of some games).

 

[VGEsoterica]

very impressive , although quake 2 does not show the difference that much .
can i do the same with any PS emulator on PC , like double the frame rate and visual upgrades ?

Quake II is really pushing at the upper limits of what the PS1 was capable of in the first place so even 10 extra frames, or a 33% increase, is legit

 

[mansoor1980]

Quake II is really pushing at the upper limits of what the PS1 was capable of in the first place so even 10 extra frames, or a 33% increase, is legit

it is basically a locked 30 vs unstable 30 as per the video for quake 2
it was a great port by a talented team

 

[EverydayBeast]

Ps1’s entire library is strong thanks to Sony’s strong leadership.

 

[yurinka]

can i do the same with any PS emulator on PC , like double the frame rate and visual upgrades ?

Maybe not in all PSX emulators, but it's quite common to see overclocking in many emulators of different systems.

 

[mansoor1980]

Depends on the emulators a bit - IIRC not all of them expose overclocking the chipset. But PS1 emulation on PSP/Vita did this(well - it did more than 2x) out of the box - I actually thought Q2 was a full 60fps title on PS1 because I played it first on a PSP.

Visual upgrades with top-of the line PC emus are far more extensive though (subpixel rasterization / perspective correction / texture filtering are all available and pretty much transform the look of some games).

have you seen PSYdoom for PC , it is a vulkan based emulator launcher specifically for the psx ports of doom , i basically want that type of emulator for all PSXgames on pc

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

So basically like Bleem! ? That's cool I guess, being able to do that with a MiSTER FPGA core in a hardware-based emulation format though, rather than just software. Results should be more accurate.

If a real PS1 Pro ever existed I wonder if they would have addressed fixing the texture distortion issue by giving it a floating point math unit instead of the fixed math unit. Costs would be less of a concern.

 

[nkarafo]

FPGA for the win.

It's a nice bonus and all.... But it's nothing new or only available on FPGA. And why only 2x? Why not options for 4x, or 8x? Isn't there enough extra performance to squeeze out of the FPGA chip?

This function is very easy and common on software emulation. You can go as high as your hardware allows in both Beetle/Mednafen PSX and Duckstation. And some games need a lot more than 2x overclocking to reach something like 60fps with no slowdowns (Jumping Flash is the latest one i personally tested that plays great at stable 60fps).

Great news if you only use FPGAs and don't have a mid-range PC to emulate i guess.

 

[a multicultural team of v]

This function is very easy and common on software emulation.

This isn't software emulation - that is the entire point of FPGA.

 

[bentanchorbolt]

This makes me with Bleemcast was given more funding. The idea of playing PSX games on the DC with cleaner visuals was appealing as fuck to me back in the day.

 

[nkarafo]

This isn't software emulation - that is the entire point of FPGA.

It's more power efficient and without an OS getting in the way, but it's still emulation.

can i do the same with any PS emulator on PC , like double the frame rate and visual upgrades ?

Yes. At least on the emulators that matter (Beetle/Mednafen PSX and Duckstation) you can overclock as high as the host hardware allows.

have you seen PSYdoom for PC , it is a vulkan based emulator launcher specifically for the psx ports of doom , i basically want that type of emulator for all PSXgames on pc

That's not really an emulator though. It's a PC native engine that uses the PSX assets from the CD. Similar to how DOOM EX would allow you to run DOOM 64 on PC, natively, using a DOOM 64 rom.

 

[a multicultural team of v]

It's more power efficient and without an OS getting in the way, but it's still emulation.

I mean, technically it's true that it's still emulation in a way, but it would be better to compare it to cycle accurate emulators. And those are a completely different beast that have very different system requirements than normal emulators - I don't think any of those psx cores that you listed are cycle accurate. Combine the fact this is essentially hardware based cycle accurate emulation and that is reason why "only" 2x is a nice achievement.

 

[marquimvfs]

It's more power efficient and without an OS getting in the way, but it's still emulation

I get you point of view, but it's not comparable to software emulation. It's a kind of Hardware simulation.

 

[nkarafo]

I mean, technically it's true that it's still emulation in a way, but it would be better to compare it to cycle accurate emulators. And those are a completely different beast that have very different system requirements than normal emulators - I don't think any of those psx cores that you listed are cycle accurate. Combine the fact this is essentially hardware based cycle accurate emulation and that is reason why "only" 2x is a nice achievement.

Cycle accuracy is a bit overrated IMO. An emulator can have perfect compatibility, 1:1 behavior with the original hardware and zero bugs without being cycle accurate. Something like LLE is more than enough.

Evidently, i don't think there's a single FPGA atm that's better (compatibility/accuracy wise) than the best available software emulator. I could be wrong, there might be a game that's perfect on a FPGA but has bugs on the best software emulator but the opposite can also be true. AFAIK, even FPGA cores have a compatibility list and get updates to fix bugs, just like software emulators do.

But fair enough, i wasn't expecting the FPGA chip to have enough performance juice left even for that 2x improvement.

 

[Holammer]

I tried overclocking some games with Beetle PSX. Exhumed/Powerslave played like a dream at locked 60fps, but there are native PC & console versions now with support for modern inputs. Road Rash is another amazing example where the overclock works.

 

[fart town usa]

As usual, great video, great post, etc. Huge asset to the community for obscure gaming things.

I need to do my research on MISTer type things because I'd love to have one but not quite sure where to start or where to order one.

 

[Ev1L AuRoN]

I thought the whole point to use an FPGA machine is for accuracy? Not hating on it but if I want to play PSX with improved graphics emulators can achieve this on a budget.

 

[a multicultural team of v]

Cycle accuracy is a bit overrated IMO. An emulator can have perfect compatibility, 1:1 behavior with the original hardware and zero bugs without being cycle accurate. Something like LLE is more than enough.

Evidently, i don't think there's a single FPGA atm that's better (compatibility/accuracy wise) than the best available software emulator. I could be wrong, there might be a game that's perfect on a FPGA but has bugs on the best software emulator but the opposite can also be true. AFAIK, even FPGA cores have a compatibility list and get updates to fix bugs, just like software emulators do.

But fair enough, i wasn't expecting the FPGA chip to have enough performance juice left even for that 2x improvement.

I agree with all of that - frankly it is all about user perceptibility, and do they the person think it is good enough. That is different for everyone - personally I don't need it to be perfect to a frame, but I would always rather play with original graphics etc on a CRT than with enhancements with an emulator, but that is just me. That said I think there are some good comparisons out there about the PSX FPGA accuracy though:




I am also super surprised that the FPGA had enough performance left, that was my biggest takeaway of this.

 

[nkarafo]

I agree with all of that - frankly it is all about user perceptibility, and do they the person think it is good enough. That is different for everyone - personally I don't need it to be perfect to a frame, but I would always rather play with original graphics etc on a CRT than with enhancements with an emulator, but that is just me. That said I think there are some good comparisons out there about the PSX FPGA accuracy though:




I am also super surprised that the FPGA had enough performance left, that was my biggest takeaway of this.

I also usually prefer native resolutions and CRT filters. And i agree, a real CRT will always be the best, though you don't necessarily need a FPGA for that.

As for the accuracy test, i have no doubts the PSX FPGA is accurate. Accuracy and maturity (compatibility) are different things anyway. I wonder how well something like Mednafen PSX, or Duckstation, or Xebra (the three most accurate PSX emulators atm) would do in this test.

 

[VGEsoterica]

It's a nice bonus and all.... But it's nothing new or only available on FPGA. And why only 2x? Why not options for 4x, or 8x? Isn't there enough extra performance to squeeze out of the FPGA chip?

This function is very easy and common on software emulation. You can go as high as your hardware allows in both Beetle/Mednafen PSX and Duckstation. And some games need a lot more than 2x overclocking to reach something like 60fps with no slowdowns (Jumping Flash is the latest one i personally tested that plays great at stable 60fps).

Great news if you only use FPGAs and don't have a mid-range PC to emulate i guess.

At 4/8X you’d probably break everything. There’s only so much you can do before nothing functions software wise

 

[Prekk]

Some ps1 games really benefit from extra fps.
I usually keep ps1 emulation as close to original as possible with the exception of PGXP. I think it's transformative. It actually makes ps1 games look good.

I wonder if something like PGXP would be possible to implement with an FPGA.

 

[VGEsoterica]

As usual, great video, great post, etc. Huge asset to the community for obscure gaming things.

I need to do my research on MISTer type things because I'd love to have one but not quite sure where to start or where to order one.

Makes me thing I should do a “how to get started with MiSTer” vid. I did one two years ago. Could probably be revisited

 

[Redneckerz]

Impressive stuff VGEsoterica but 66 Mhz PSX? I am sure you are aware of Namco's arcade PSX-based hardware that ran at 50 Mhz, and Sony ZN-2 supposely ran the CPU at 100(!) Mhz?

 

[VGEsoterica]

Impressive stuff VGEsoterica but 66 Mhz PSX? I am sure you are aware of Namco's arcade PSX-based hardware that ran at 50 Mhz, and Sony ZN-2 supposely ran the CPU at 100(!) Mhz?

I am. I have them in the closet next to me as I type this video on them soon. It’s not just a clock adjustment. Lots of silicon differences to get it to run stable at those speeds

 

[Fafalada]

I wonder if something like PGXP would be possible to implement with an FPGA.

I mean - not seeing what would stop it (board capabilities aside).
It's more iffy on the 'why' - it'd essentially be throwing out big parts of the existing PS1 core since you'd need to implement a different GPU alltogether, and compatibility/accuracy becomes a very different question.

 

[nkarafo]

At 4/8X you’d probably break everything. There’s only so much you can do before nothing functions software wise

Depends on the game. Jumping Flash doesn't break and runs at 60fps if you overcklock it high enough.

 

[squeakywheel]

I want one but the MisTER is exorbitant nowadays. My Analogue Pocket will have to do for now and I'll just sw emulate PS1/Saturn. I hope there's an even better FPGA coming that can emulate N64/Dreamcast. I might just wait for that.

 

[cartman414]

I thought the whole point to use an FPGA machine is for accuracy? Not hating on it but if I want to play PSX with improved graphics emulators can achieve this on a budget.

Accurate to the original. Theoretically an FPGA with enough power left could go above and beyond.

Besides, the PSX itself sacrificed accuracy in its polygonally related functions/hw for decent speed at a mass market price. No fpu, no z-buffer. Now I don't know how adding a z-buffer to emulation would work (would surely require a lot of programming), but I've seen PS1 emulation with floating point math added, fixing the warping issues common to many games. I wouldn't mind seeing that functionality added as an option to the PSX MiSTer core.

 

[VGEsoterica]

Accurate to the original. Theoretically an FPGA with enough power left could go above and beyond.

Besides, the PSX itself sacrificed accuracy in its polygonally related functions/hw for decent speed at a mass market price. No fpu, no z-buffer. Now I don't know how adding a z-buffer to emulation would work (would surely require a lot of programming), but I've seen PS1 emulation with floating point math added, fixing the warping issues common to many games. I wouldn't mind seeing that functionality added as an option to the PSX MiSTer core.

Yes the PSX was basically designed as “keep it affordable, make it look as good as possible” so it lacked some features it could have used

 

[Redneckerz]

I am. I have them in the closet next to me as I type this video on them soon. It’s not just a clock adjustment. Lots of silicon differences to get it to run stable at those speeds

Now that i love to see. I know thru Mame that the ZN-2 had several revisions and did a lot to get to 100 mh. Love to see your vid soon!

 

[VGEsoterica]

Now that i love to see. I know thru Mame that the ZN-2 had several revisions and did a lot to get to 100 mh. Love to see your vid soon!

I think I have the PSX arcade board showcase scheduled for March. Bunch of diff boards

 

[Griffon]

As pointed out by others, normal emulators can do that and much more. Widescreen modes, polygon stabilization, smoothed out textures, higher FPS, HD resolution, you can make your games look generations better. No need for expensive FPGA emulation.

 

[VGEsoterica]

As pointed out by others, normal emulators can do that and much more. Widescreen modes, polygon stabilization, smoothed out textures, higher FPS, HD resolution, you can make your games look generations better. No need for expensive FPGA emulation.

Sure but aren’t more options a good thing?

 

[cartman414]

As pointed out by others, normal emulators can do that and much more. Widescreen modes, polygon stabilization, smoothed out textures, higher FPS, HD resolution, you can make your games look generations better. No need for expensive FPGA emulation.

Without latency?

 

[Drew1440]

Impressive stuff VGEsoterica but 66 Mhz PSX? I am sure you are aware of Namco's arcade PSX-based hardware that ran at 50 Mhz, and Sony ZN-2 supposely ran the CPU at 100(!) Mhz?

I believe the enhanced boards (System 12/ZN2) run at a 50% higher clock speed compared to the stock PSX, 48mhz, and have 2MB of VRAM compared to 1MB. MAME reports them at 100mhz because the PSX CPU runs at half the bus speed, the System 11/ZN1 boards run at the same spped as a normal PSX but show up as 66.67mhz because of this.

As pointed out by others, normal emulators can do that and much more. Widescreen modes, polygon stabilization, smoothed out textures, higher FPS, HD resolution, you can make your games look generations better. No need for expensive FPGA emulation.

People prefer the accuracy that FPGA can bring, but that goes out of the window once you start messing with clock speeds, since there are a few games that tie the clock speed with the games timing. Wipeout and that Rugrats game are games that start to run too fast once you overclock.

 

[stranno]

There were actually not only one, but several Playstation Pros, called Capcom's ZN2 and Namco's System 10, 11 and 12. That ran games like Tekken Tag Tournament or Soul Calibur with higher clocks, more RAM, better I/O, etc.

 

[VGEsoterica]

There were actually not only one, but several Playstation Pros, called Capcom's ZN2 and Namco's System 10, 11 and 12. That ran games like Tekken Tag Tournament or Soul Calibur with higher clocks, more RAM, better I/O, etc.

Don't forget G-Net and Konami GQ / 573

 

[Clear]

If they got that sort of boost out of Quake2 PSX, they should get more out of Blade from the following year.

Same engine, but repurposed for third-person, and significantly slowed down by utilizing real-time poly sorting for entities as opposed to the pre-calculated list system used throughout Q2. Project was a shit-show thanks to Activision and released basically unfinished, but it should show substantial gains at 2x clocks.

 

[winjer]

very impressive , although quake 2 does not show the difference that much .
can i do the same with any PS emulator on PC , like double the frame rate and visual upgrades ?

From what I can tell, this only overclocks the CPU. But the PS1 has several chips, for graphics and for memory.
So it's bound to hit some bottleneck with some games somewhere else.

On an emulator, there are very few limits. So you can run at much higher resolutions, frame rate, and increase image quality.

 

[SF Kosmo]

I feel like we've come full circle from FPGA being about accuracy to treating it like emulation where we can do all these hacks and enhancements. Overclocking virtual hardware is hardly anything new in emulation.

 

[VGEsoterica]

I feel like we've come full circle from FPGA being about accuracy to treating it like emulation where we can do all these hacks and enhancements. Overclocking virtual hardware is hardly anything new in emulation.

It’s just fun to play around with “more” once the 1:1 replication is done. It’s like a bonus

 

[SF Kosmo]

It’s just fun to play around with “more” once the 1:1 replication is done. It’s like a bonus

But again, it's a bonus we've had already for a long time.

 

[VGEsoterica]

But again, it's a bonus we've had already for a long time.

The more options the better imo

 

[cartman414]

But again, it's a bonus we've had already for a long time.

Again, can emulation do it with lag free response controls? (Rhetorical question btw.)

 

[Trilobit]

I love that we're still talking about the first 3D generation. I still remember playing Spyro some years ago and being surprised by how fluid and great the gameplay was. The graphics were still serviceable and pleasant also.

 

[SF Kosmo]

Again, can emulation do it with lag free response controls? (Rhetorical question btw.)

With run ahead, essentially yeah. I mean look FPGA has definite advantages especially when paired with a CRT, but some of that cases is diminished when we start doing hacky stuff that breaks compatibility.