Shit like "Pure Laine" (obsession with racial purity) and the dog whistle racism embedded in the Quebec Charter of Values pisses me off.
Quebec judge refuses to hear women's case until she removed Hijab
- Thread starter Maninthemirror
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Shit like "Pure Laine" (obsession with racial purity) and the dog whistle racism embedded in the Quebec Charter of Values pisses me off.
jakonovski
Member
The courtroom of your mind is a scary, scary place.
m_shortpants
Member
I can understand a niqab or burqa not being allowed in a court, but there's nothing disrespectful or problematic with a hijab. I've worked with Muslim women who wear it and look as professional if not more than a lot of people.
Have you talked to Muslim women? Do you have any Muslim women friends? Maybe we should include them in our discussion of policies that directly affect them instead of making silly assumptions about their history and lives.
(Not to say that the type of mentioned oppression doesn't exist, just silly to talk about only in the context of religion as if secularism is the sole cause of justice)
Actually now that I think about it, I would be all for having everyone's face covered in court. It would prevent the judges from applying their prejudices to the people. If we want secularism, that's the way to go.
So is this a practice that it's happening or did this person make it up? You also didn't answered my other questions.
You cannot speak for or represent Canadian culture as one person. You certainly diverge from my Canadian culture with this opinion.
This judge is misguided at best, discriminatory and antagonistic at worst.
I've stated in a previous post that I can't speak for all women because I know some that wear their burqas completely voluntary, hence why I'm prefacing comments with "I think."
Tell you what, like others have suggested, if society is fine with female security guards identifying women under the veil while in court, that's perfectly acceptable to me.
Why? If it doesn't matter to you if you can see the plaintiffs face or not then why even have them come to court, why not just do it over a phonecall?
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
If an officer of the court charged with upholding truth can verify the information a hundred percent, then I'm thinking it's fine, versus just phone call dickery.
jakonovski
Member
Because courts are supposed to decide based on facts, not how someone looks. You're basically making the dehumanizing stare argument.
No idea. I was just responding to what they said.
Actually. the judge should only be looking at text. They should be blind to everything else and only see the evidence and testimony. Not the people.
Burqas should be allowed too when its not a disruption. Heres a british ruling on the matter.
Ok, so lets forget about 1-on-1 with a judge then, what about being questioned by a lawyer or cases with juries? Would you still be okay with someone keeping their face concealed during questioning the entire time?
Just personally, I think body language and facial expressions are pertinent information when trying to decide if someone if telling the truth or now.
Clinton514
Member
I'll keep that in mind next time I try to assess a person's intentions by the flow of their hair.
I didn't know that judges were expert body readers. Body language, voice, or appearance should play no role at all in the court room. What if someone is just nervous and the judge rules them guilty due to body language? It's too unreliable. It would also fix the judge being racist and applying their prejudices to the case.
flow of hair = not facial response. I think a hijab is fine.
Paging lawyerGAF. Are classes on body language part of the law school curriculum?
We're talking hypothetically about burqas and niqas now.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
I don't know, I believe body language is a crucial element in communication. Of course you can't throw testimony out the court just because you "feel" like it's lying, that's what the cross-examination is for. In Canada, the judge can require a person to take face covering off if they believe it necessary.
Clinton514
Member
I wonder how that ruling works in reality. A all female court?
Body language is too unreliable. What if people are just nervous?
Would you be fine with people not turning up to court at all then and just having their cases heard via telephone?
cm osi
Member
what does the quran say about islamic laws vs local laws?
i agrre with the judge, anyway, religion shouldn't get a free pass.
burqa shouldn't be allowed, like nope. wanna try to go to the bank with a motorcycle headgear on and refuse to remove it? allowing burqa means that everyone can go around with their faces masked and be totally anonymous.
Hijab are fine, but if the law ask you to remove it, you remove it.
i agrre with the judge, anyway, religion shouldn't get a free pass.
burqa shouldn't be allowed, like nope. wanna try to go to the bank with a motorcycle headgear on and refuse to remove it? allowing burqa means that everyone can go around with their faces masked and be totally anonymous.
Hijab are fine, but if the law ask you to remove it, you remove it.
People would be prejudiced if they could hear the voice of someone or know their name, it's best just do to do anonymous aim chat questioning or something. Swipe right to convict.
gutter_trash
Banned
Identity politics in Quebec have changed from language to secularism around 2007.
The media were running stories about religious accomadtions excess that forced the Libetal government to create a commission on Reasonable Accomadtions under pressure from Nationalist (ADQ) party. The witness testimonials were a circus. The chairs of the commission recommended sensible recommendations that the Liberals never acted upon.
Then following elections costed the Liberals a majority to a minority.The ADQ surpassed the PQ and became official opposition due to identity politics.
The PQ were embarrassed to have fallen to 3rd place and have taken an ubber nationalist approach like the ADQ to take back nationalist votes .
2 election cycles later the PQ won a minority government after 9 years of Liberal rule snf proposed a Charter of Values on secularism that would ban public employees from wearing religious gear. PQ then forced an election thinking that they would win a majority because of the Values Charter but got side tracked on confision on holding a 3rd Referendum on Independence which helped the Liberals regain majority.
Now with Liberals who are perceived as a do nothing party with daily news about Muslims on TV, ISIS, Charlie Hebdo has encouraged the opposition parties to make allot of noise on identity politics again, especially when one of the major newspapers is owned by PQ mna running for the PQ leadership.
Identity politics have created opportunisme on the part of the opposition parties fir capital gain, lots of media attention, confusion and blurring the lines on national security, secularism and identity.
Expect shit to get nastier when the new PQ leader and media mogul takes the job of leader of opposition
The media were running stories about religious accomadtions excess that forced the Libetal government to create a commission on Reasonable Accomadtions under pressure from Nationalist (ADQ) party. The witness testimonials were a circus. The chairs of the commission recommended sensible recommendations that the Liberals never acted upon.
Then following elections costed the Liberals a majority to a minority.The ADQ surpassed the PQ and became official opposition due to identity politics.
The PQ were embarrassed to have fallen to 3rd place and have taken an ubber nationalist approach like the ADQ to take back nationalist votes .
2 election cycles later the PQ won a minority government after 9 years of Liberal rule snf proposed a Charter of Values on secularism that would ban public employees from wearing religious gear. PQ then forced an election thinking that they would win a majority because of the Values Charter but got side tracked on confision on holding a 3rd Referendum on Independence which helped the Liberals regain majority.
Now with Liberals who are perceived as a do nothing party with daily news about Muslims on TV, ISIS, Charlie Hebdo has encouraged the opposition parties to make allot of noise on identity politics again, especially when one of the major newspapers is owned by PQ mna running for the PQ leadership.
Identity politics have created opportunisme on the part of the opposition parties fir capital gain, lots of media attention, confusion and blurring the lines on national security, secularism and identity.
Expect shit to get nastier when the new PQ leader and media mogul takes the job of leader of opposition
jakonovski
Member
You know, at this point some of you are just trying to come up with reasons to ban religious face coverings, not thinking about what's needed for a court to work.
Yep, the judge is a disgrace.
No.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
I think that started on the first page.
Name names jakonovski, no need to hide peoples identities right?
Clinton514
Member
I should have done it years ago, but I'll be making a jump over to Ontario soon enough. If Paladeau is elected, Quebec will see it's worst since the 90's.
No. I would be fine with typed letters delivered to the judge with any names replaced with something like "Witness A". The judge would then look at the evidence and testimony and make a decision. I would think that this would make people happy since everyone would get equal treatment regardless of their gender, race, religion, appearance.
jakonovski
Member
Yeah, I obviously mean you. But I think there were some others too, but can't be arsed to argue with everyone.
Think of it this way: people's ability to modify their body language and facial expressions varies greatly. Some will be able to easily manipulate others, some will not. All sorts will in the end commit crimes or be victims. As such only facts should matter. It is not a charm the judge/jury contest. Even though it often deteriorates to one, sadly.
Oh I see. Thanks for clarifying it.
The Power Of Snap
Member
Why not do it now?
Glad to know your opinions are based on a charter that was dead in the water.
You think all white people with french canadian ancestry are obsessed with racial purity? I mean, you just come off as prejudiced against Quebecois, with the broad stokes you paint us...
But it's the norm on the Internet in general. I usually avoid getting in these discussions, because it is always pointless, and people are set in their mindsets.
I live in Quebec, and I hate every second of it. If it weren't for my wife wanting to live here, I'd gladly get the heck out of this province. I'm sorry, but being part of the "minority" myself, I disagree with the people saying that this province is welcoming. It's anything but. This article is just another example of extremes in Quebec. You can't wear the hijab, but you have to swear on the bible. And isn't it weird that we never heard anything related to other religious groups feeling ostracized by being told to remove their kippa, etc. ? This one lone woman is the first one to ever speak out against something like this ? Right.
Clearly it has nothing to do with the current wave of Islamophobia being rampant in today's society.
End of rant.
Clearly it has nothing to do with the current wave of Islamophobia being rampant in today's society.
End of rant.
andthebeatgoeson
Junior Member
I personally feel I have to help them. Civil rights was a success and we must, finally, turn our attention to feminism.
Those poor girls.
gutter_trash
Banned
Peladeau's true priority is to own an NHL franchise (Nordiques). He knows and everyone knows that Quebec independence is demographicly impossible to achieve so might as well work his way to get a sports team
jakonovski
Member
I obviously disagree.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
But if you're a lawyer, would you not want to work with someone's body language if you were doing a cross-examination of their testimony?
Not all body language can be faked by the way, at least, not for a long time. Body language doesn't reveal whether a person is lying, but it -can- tell you what someone is uncomfortable talking about.
Typed letters.
And then the judge can mail the defendant his follow-up questions, and then the defendant can mail back their responses....
Go on, I'm listening.
Please show me your evidence that I'm "just trying to come up with reasons to ban religious face coverings" and not speaking specifically about court cases.
jakonovski
Member
Lawyers want many things. What's with this fascination with jedi mind tricks in the court room?
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