• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Question about PAL games resolution and 60Hz/60fps

The PAL TV standard has more lines of resolution than NTSC, I know that developers used to add borders to the top and bottom of the screen in PAL versions of their games to cover the added resolution in past console generations, but I think/hope that practice isn't common these days, am I right? If so, then PAL games run at a higher resolution than NTSC ones, correct? If not, then you can stop reading here since the rest of my questions assume that PAL games do indeed run at a higher resolution than NTSC ones, if no letter-boxing is used of course.

I know that most PAL games run at 50Hz (thus 50fps?), which is a big enough turn-off for most gamers to avoid PAL versions of certain games, even if said games run a higher resolution... So I was thinking... If I have a modded PS2 and a PAL-capable TV, isn't it better for me to get the PAL game that supports 60Hz than getting the NTSC version? Since theoretically I'd be getting a nicer looking game (resolution) without any loss of speed.

?
 

Ranger X

Member
I test the pal version of the games i work on at the job (and with a NTSC/PAL tv) and let me tell you it's a pain. The gain is resolution is barely noticeable and can't excuse, sorry, can't even get near excusing the loss of framerate.
I'm so fucking glad to live in America. PAL sucks.
 

Deg

Banned
Well its odd. I cant seem to get my head around it. Although in progressive scan a game is a little better for example Soul Calibur 2 but PAL games dont have that. I own both NTSC JP and PAL UK. I also have Metroid Prime in PAL UK and NTSC US. In Metroid Prime the PAL version does have enhancements such as the start menu being sharper and better quality which do make a difference. The game looks the same without progressive.

Wyzdom said:
I test the pal version of the games i work on at the job (and with a NTSC/PAL tv) and let me tell you it's a pain. The gain is resolution is barely noticeable and can't excuse, sorry, can't even get near excusing the loss of framerate.
I'm so fucking glad to live in America. PAL sucks.


Yeah UBI are rubbish at PAL conversions.
 

Blimblim

The Inside Track
Actually you either get 720x576 at 50hz, or 720x480 at 60hz. So PAL60 is basically the same think as NTSC, except the color coding should be a bit better (won't change anything with a RGB or YUV cable). PAL50 and PAL60 have the same bandwidth, but you either get 20% more screen, or 20% more frames.
Good PAL50 can be very nice if done well, Halo is a good example of that (except it ran badly in PAL60 of course)
 
Blimblim said:
Actually you either get 720x576 at 50hz, or 720x480 at 60hz. So PAL60 is basically the same think as NTSC, except the color coding should be a bit better (won't change anything with a RGB or YUV cable). PAL50 and PAL60 have the same bandwidth, but you either get 20% more screen, or 20% more frames.
Good PAL50 can be very nice if done well, Halo is a good example of that (except it ran badly in PAL60 of course)

Oh I get it now, thanks for clearing this up for me once and for all.
 

Ranger X

Member
So why is there game compagnies producing games in 50 hz instead of 60 hz? The resolution is not much a difference!
 

Blimblim

The Inside Track
Wyzdom said:
So why is there game compagnies producing games in 50 hz instead of 60 hz? The resolution is not much a difference!
Because PAL50 is the only "official" PAL in Europe. PAL60 is more of a consequence of having dual PAL/NTSC sets. Most TV support PAL60, but PAL50 is the only thing you'll get working 100% of the time on all european tv sets.
 

Deg

Banned
Wyzdom said:
So why is there game compagnies producing games in 50 hz instead of 60 hz? The resolution is not much a difference!

Tv standards. PAL is the standard used in the UK. You need to unless you're happy losing customers. It matters alot less now as tv's now also handle NTSC.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
20% is a lot of extra resolution.

I'd actually prefer more devs to support 50Hz properly (timings etc), and extra res. 60Hz started out as a simple way to get proper timing support, and is rapidly turning into an excuse to not bother taking advantage of PALs increased resolution.

God knows what happens next gen, when PAL territories will want progressive support. There is no PAL 60Hz progressive workaround, so they'd need to go NTSC prog scan. Hope the console manufacturers are smart enough to allow that.
 
mrklaw said:
20% is a lot of extra resolution.

I'd actually prefer more devs to support 50Hz properly (timings etc), and extra res. 60Hz started out as a simple way to get proper timing support, and is rapidly turning into an excuse to not bother taking advantage of PALs increased resolution..

Yeah, some games look much better in 50Hz mode, ICO and Metroid Prime spring to mind.
 
It's all in the implementation... the likes of Mario Sunshine, F Zero GX and Metroid Prime in 60hz RGB scart are absolutely beautiful. But I have played underwhelming 60hz modes.

I can't decide whether or not I'd prefer them to just quick-port a 60hz mode and give me the games quicker, rather than fiddling about with display too much while they've got language localisation on their hands as well. I mean basically, I'm only going and getting the games I really want quicker on import anyway, and using Freeloader... which forces me into PAL 60 anyway. I'm happy with how Four Swords Adventures and Tales of Symphonia look on that...

But as some have said - games look better chromatically speaking as well as in terms of fluidity if theyre carefully tailored to PAL.
 

Ranger X

Member
Well, i'm happy to live in a NTSC standard country because the framerate is killing a game ALOT more for the me than the resolution.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
Wyzdom said:
Well, i'm happy to live in a NTSC standard country because the framerate is killing a game ALOT more for the me than the resolution.

well, yes, but then you don't have the choice now, do you?


:p
 

Ranger X

Member
mrklaw said:
well, yes, but then you don't have the choice now, do you?


:p


I wouldn't have a choice but to follow the standard of my country but the things is; I did witness some 50 hz PAL games...
 

Shompola

Banned
a proper 50hz game looks and plays just fine. It's just that most games aren't optimized for 50hz at all and feel slower than 60hz. VF4:EVO wich is very slow in 50hz mode could be smoother if they optimized it. Instead they just dropped the framerate from 60 to 50hz without compensating the animations. But it looks so much better resolution wise. It almost looks like a progressive scan game when played in PAL50 mode.
 

Forsete

Member
I perfer the extra resolution.

At least with games that are properly coded/converted in/to PAL, Jak 2 and the GT games.
 

Elios83

Member
Don't put the blame of shitty Pal conversions on the Pal format itself.If you put a game completely timed for a 60HZ refresh directly on a 50HZ display you obviously have a sucky sloooow conversion (FFX,DMC1,Onimusha1).And that's exactly what a lot of software houses used to do because they didn't want to lose time and money on the conversion.Now there's the trend of the 50/60HZ switch.
But if a game is made using properly the Pal specifics it has nothing to envy to a NTSC game,on the contrary it benefits of a higher resolution.
In Pal games with the 50-60HZ switch when you switch between 50HZ and 60HZ you can notice immediatly the loss in the number of lines.
 

Elios83

Member
adelgary said:
If I have a modded PS2 and a PAL-capable TV, isn't it better for me to get the PAL game that supports 60Hz than getting the NTSC version? Since theoretically I'd be getting a nicer looking game (resolution) without any loss of speed.

?

When you use the 60HZ mode of a Pal game you are basically playing it in the NTSC original format and you lose the resolution gain.
Only in optimized 50HZ convertions you have the increased resolution and you can't notice the loss in speed.
But this is rare,by now all the software houses prefers to implement the 50-60HZ switch.
 
D

Deleted member 1235

Unconfirmed Member
Elios83 said:
When you use the 60HZ mode of a Pal game you are basically playing it in the NTSC original format and you lose the resolution gain.
Only in optimized 50HZ convertions you have the increased resolution and you can't notice the loss in speed.
But this is rare,by now all the software houses prefers to implement the 50-60HZ switch.

But it has better colour correct? In theory is Pal 60 not "the best one" if you ignore the ludicrous wait for a product to get here?

Halo is optimised for 50hz in PAL, and you notice some severe crapness if you play it in PAL 60, however I got my hands on the NTSC version of Halo so we could use the map mods, and it seems to play faster than PAL 50. Everybody noticed it.
 

scarybore

Member
catfish said:
But it has better colour correct? In theory is Pal 60 not "the best one" if you ignore the ludicrous wait for a product to get here?

Halo is optimised for 50hz in PAL, and you notice some severe crapness if you play it in PAL 60, however I got my hands on the NTSC version of Halo so we could use the map mods, and it seems to play faster than PAL 50. Everybody noticed it.

Halo aint a good candidate for a good PAL conversion because as you say it does run a little bit slower than the NTSC counterpart. When me and my mates first tried it out we immediately noticed how much faster the title screen was never mind the gameplay :D , its also very noticable in the cutscenes aswell. Halo is also the only title that I know of that has a fucked up PAL 60 mode which was just bizarre. It was a pretty good conversion, but not perfect.

Providing developers put effort into optimising their games they can look extremely good with only the problem of more pronounced flickering due to the lower refresh. Nowadays I just shove the 60Hz modes on by default, as I just cant be arsed fiddling about with Hz settings anymore, checking to see if it was done properly.

Im hoping the console manufacturers will make sure that 60hz options will be mandatory for next gen games, especially Sony. Most games on either Playstations are by and large terrible with only a big change in the last 2 or so years.
 
D

Deleted member 1235

Unconfirmed Member
Nintendos pretty good about it, and I like the way Microsoft has the option to set it in the dashboard, makes a good case for forcing developers to put it in. HALO is odd though, the correct way to play it is in 50hz because it was optimised for that, I don't know why they did that, because the speed difference is noticeable, which leads me to the theory that when HALO 2 drops, I may actually be weaksauce on live.

On a related note, this from the Kiwi guy that works at bungie
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We fully support PAL-50 and PAL-60 and are interoperable between them.

Cheers!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Burger from these boards emailed him about the 50hz thing regarding HALO 2, so it looks like none of that burnout 3 nonsense on live.
 

Elios83

Member
As DeathCraze said Halo has some strange problems in the 60HZ mode :D :D
In fact many people complained about it and MS suggested to play the game at 50HZ.
Anyway I would like to say that the 'Pal 60' mode featured in games is simply NTSC.
In fact most of european multi format TVs support traditional Pal50,NTSC and Secam (a french standard).
You can immedialty notice the switch in resolution when you pass from the 50HZ mode to the 60HZ mode,I play with RGB and colour is the same for me.
 

speedpop

Has problems recognising girls
Wyzdom said:
I wouldn't have a choice but to follow the standard of my country but the things is; I did witness some 50 hz PAL games...
Mate we've had to deal with it for years. It's only since last gen/this gen that most hardcore gamers stood up and just resorted to importing (although you can dispute that fact if you ever wanted to play FF6 or CT on SNES). Huge borders, slow rate, whatever the problem was we got it.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Ugh, 50 Hz is just so...terrible. I was quite shocked when I experienced some PAL games running at 50 Hz. It absolutely destroys the fluidity of motion that I love so much about 60 fps...
 

Ranger X

Member
speedpop said:
Mate we've had to deal with it for years. It's only since last gen/this gen that most hardcore gamers stood up and just resorted to importing (although you can dispute that fact if you ever wanted to play FF6 or CT on SNES). Huge borders, slow rate, whatever the problem was we got it.

Yeah i know. Poor you guys really. God bless america for it's NTSC standard.
 

JMPovoa

Member
Actually, the PAL Playstation 2 has its games run in NTSC mode when you get to choose the 60hz option in some games. That's why when you play at 60hz in the PS2 the standard cable for video displays in black and white, so you have to buy a SCART RGB cable for it to display in colours and with crystal clear image. On the Xbox, Gamecube and Dreamcast, you have PAL60 doing the 60hz image, so you can play with an RF cable for all i care and it will display in colours, unlike the PS2. I always buy the SCART RGB cable for every console regardless, so it doesn't bug me that PS2 works that way, but for all the others it has to suck.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
dark10x said:
Ugh, 50 Hz is just so...terrible. I was quite shocked when I experienced some PAL games running at 50 Hz. It absolutely destroys the fluidity of motion that I love so much about 60 fps...

Are you from outside of PALland, or just a 60Hz whore

If you are only ever used to 60Hz (eg living in the US), then 50Hz will look slow to you. Just like being in the UK, going to the US, TV looks like I've gone blind, its so lowres and everyone is orange.
 
Yeah, PAL is the superior format, too bad the game devs are still so lazy. It sould get better next console generation, though I bet Square-Enix will still fuck things up.
 
F

Folder

Unconfirmed Member
http://www.high-techproductions.com/pal,ntsc.htm

Yay! Numbers! :)

The Relative Merits of TV Systems

The differences between each of the main TV systems are not quite as clear cut as one might at first imagine. While NTSC has a reputation for poor colour accuracy, this is only really true of broadcast television and as a video format it has some distinct advantages over the other systems. All these systems are a compromise and many efforts have been made over the years to address the shortcomings in each of the systems.
In the section below, I have tried to create as objective as possible a comparison of these various pros and cons. The techniques that are used to overcome these limitations are discussed elsewhere.

NTSC/525 Advantages

Higher Frame Rate - Use of 30 frames per second (really 29.97) reduces visible flicker.
Atomic Colour Edits - With NTSC it is possible to edit at any 4 field boundary point without disturbing the colour signal.
Less inherent picture noise - Almost all pieces of video equipment achieve better signal to noise characteristics in their NTSC/525 form than in their PAL/625.

NTSC/525 Disadvantages

Lower Number of Scan Lines - Reduced clarity on large screen TVs, line structure more visible.
Smaller Luminance Signal Bandwidth - Due to the placing of the colour sub-carrier at 3.58MHz, picture defects such as moire, cross-colour, and dot interference become more pronounced. This is because of the greater likelihood of interaction with the monochrome picture signal at the lower sub-carrier frequency.
Susceptablity to Hue Fluctuation - Variations in the colour subcarrier phase cause shifts in the displayed colour, requiring that the TV receivers be equiped with a Hue adjustment to compensate.
Lower Gamma Ratio - The gamma value for NTSC/525 is set at 2.2 as opposed to the slightly higher 2.8 defined for PAL/625. This means that PAL/625 can produce pictures of greater contrast.
Undesirable Automatic Features - Many NTSC TV receivers feature an Auto-Tint circuit to make hue fluctuations less visible to uncritical viewers. This circuit changes all colours approximating to flesh tone into a "standard" fleshtone, thus hiding the effects of hue fluctuation. This does mean however that a certain range of colour shades cannot be displayed correctly by these sets. Up-market models often have this (mis)feature switchable, cheaper sets do not.

PAL/625 Advantages

Greater Number of Scan Lines - more picture detail.
Wider Luminance Signal Bandwidth - The placing of the colour Sub-Carrier at 4.43MHz allows a larger bandwidth of monochrome information to be reproduced than with NTSC/525.
Stable Hues - Due to reversal of sub-carrier phase on alternate lines, any phase error will be corrected by an equal and oposite error on the next line, correcting the original error. In early PAL implementations it was left to the low resolution of the human eye's colour abilities to provide the averaging effect; it is now done with a delay line.
Higher Gamma Ratio - The gamma value for PAL/625 is set at 2.8 as opposed to the lower 2.2 figure of NTSC/525. This permits a higher level of contrast than on NTSC/525 signals. This is particularly noticable when using multi-standard equipment as the contrast and brightness settings need to be changed to give a similar look to signals of the two formats.

PAL/625 Disadvantages

More Flicker - Due to the lower frame rate, flicker is more noticable on PAL/625 transmissions; particularly so for people used to viewing NTSC/525 signals.
Lower Signal to Noise Ratio - The higher bandwidth requirements cause PAL/625 equipment to have slightly worse signal to noise performance than it's equivalent NTSC/525 version.
Loss of Colour Editing Accuracy - Due to the alternation of the phase of the colour signal, the phase and the colour signal only reach a common point once every 8 fields/4 frames. This means that edits can only be performed to an accuracy of +/- 4 frames (8 fields).
Variable Colour Saturation - Since PAL achieves accurate colour through cancelling out phase differences between the two signals, the act of cancelling out errors can reduce the colour saturation while holding the hue stable. Fortunately, the human eye is far less sensitive to saturation variations than to hue variations, so this is very much the lesser of two evils.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
mrklaw said:
Are you from outside of PALland, or just a 60Hz whore

If you are only ever used to 60Hz (eg living in the US), then 50Hz will look slow to you. Just like being in the UK, going to the US, TV looks like I've gone blind, its so lowres and everyone is orange.

I'm not even necessarily referring to TV...

All of my gaming is done on either a PC monitor or an HDTV, so I'm used to superior image quality AND 60 fps. :p

I'm in the US, however. When I first witnessed 50 Hz PAL image, though, it was very slow feeling. I am a huge framerate whore, though, and would almost always give up better image quality for 60 fps motion. That's likely why it looked so bad to me...
 

cja

Member
adelgary said:
Anyone know if the recently released Pro Evolution Soccer 4 from Konami is optimized for 50Hz or 60Hz? It has the switch.
The PES4 PS2 beta (maybe final code) code that has been leaked is optimised/changed for 50Hz. No slowdown, small borders and the game runs quite a bit quicker than 60Hz. 60Hz has a little slowdown (nowhere near as bad as WE8 though), is full screen and runs slower, but still a tad quicker than WE8, very similar pace to WE7I. I'll set the game to NTSC-60Hz because the timing and pace of the game is likely to be how KCET intended it to be. The game isn't out yet btw, this Friday is release day.
 

Shompola

Banned
dark10x said:
I'm not even necessarily referring to TV...

All of my gaming is done on either a PC monitor or an HDTV, so I'm used to superior image quality AND 60 fps. :p

I'm in the US, however. When I first witnessed 50 Hz PAL image, though, it was very slow feeling. I am a huge framerate whore, though, and would almost always give up better image quality for 60 fps motion. That's likely why it looked so bad to me...

Just curious but can you immediately also see the difference between 50 frames and 60 frames on a monitor on pc? or say 60 and 70 and the monitor refreshes synced with the framerate.
 

Gregory

Banned
50hz PAL when done right is better than 60hz NTSC. This is only with games running at 50fps though. Rallisport Challenge for example, at 50fps moves just as smooth and fast as it does in 60fps. And the added res of PAL gives it a much better picture.

The difference in smoothness between 50fps and 60fps is hardly noticable.

With 30fps games however, it becomes 25fps in 50hz, and that makes quite a difference. Here NTSC 30fps is always preferrable, imo. 25fps is just too jerky.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Shompola said:
Just curious but can you immediately also see the difference between 50 frames and 60 frames on a monitor on pc? or say 60 and 70 and the monitor refreshes synced with the framerate.

Yes.

50 fps and 60 fps on a PC monitor is like night and day for me (with vertical sync enabled, of course). I can see the difference between 60 and 70 as well, and to me, 60 looks better as 70 seems to "over-buffer" (does that even make sense?) the screen just a tad and leaves a very slight ghosting effect that bothers me.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
I'm in the US, however. When I first witnessed 50 Hz PAL image, though, it was very slow feeling. I am a huge framerate whore, though, and would almost always give up better image quality for 60 fps motion. That's likely why it looked so bad to me...

Bad 50Hz can seem slow - if its not coded right, it can be 17% slower.

but people on TV still move the same speed...

good devs can dislocate the timing of the game from the timing of the display refresh. So the game should run at the same speed regardless of display. i.e your car would still move forward 10ft in one second on an NTSC or PAL display.

But lots of devs don't do that, as they have no time, or focus too much on the initial NTSC SKU, and then its too late to tune properly to PAL.

PAL has a slower refresh rate != PAL is slower.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
Oh, and while we are on refresh rates, for bluray/HD HVD, I want a ratified 72Hz display option, for perfect replication of 24fps movies.

(bet you hate those 24fps car chases, huh?)

:p
 

Ranger X

Member
dark10x said:
Yes.

50 fps and 60 fps on a PC monitor is like night and day for me (with vertical sync enabled, of course). I can see the difference between 60 and 70 as well, and to me, 60 looks better as 70 seems to "over-buffer" (does that even make sense?) the screen just a tad and leaves a very slight ghosting effect that bothers me.

dude, your eyes can't see faster than 60 fps lol
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
mrklaw said:
Bad 50Hz can seem slow - if its not coded right, it can be 17% slower.

but people on TV still move the same speed...

good devs can dislocate the timing of the game from the timing of the display refresh. So the game should run at the same speed regardless of display. i.e your car would still move forward 10ft in one second on an NTSC or PAL display.

But lots of devs don't do that, as they have no time, or focus too much on the initial NTSC SKU, and then its too late to tune properly to PAL.

PAL has a slower refresh rate != PAL is slower.

OK, the very little bit of PAL gaming I've seen could have been with unoptimized games. However, could GOOD timing be compared to 50 fps on a PC monitor?
 
Top Bottom