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Question to religious conservatives...

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That would be directed at those in the good old US of A, assuming there are any posting on this board.

I can see the debate coming with the nominations at the Supreme Court, especially the one concerning separation of church and state. That some of you are not too hot with the strict application of this principle is perhaps not surprising, but how can anyone aspiring to be a public servant (Congress, Supreme Court) be against it and still be taken seriously? If such a person views the Bible as the supreme authority over a constitution he has vowed to defend as part of his job and is willing to undermine one fundamental principle established by the founding fathers, doesn't that make him a bad choice for the job?

It seems to me some of those religious conservatives are unable to live in a country that has to accomodate its own diversity and maybe they should set up some kind of religious enclave where they can have their own theocracy.

Just trying to start a dialogue. :D
 
Instigator said:
It seems to me some of those religious conservatives are unable to live in a country that has to accomodate its own diversity and maybe they should set up some kind of religious enclave where they can have their own theocracy.

1104_usofcanada_320x277.jpg
 
Why would religious conservatives (assuming you mean people who strictly interpret the laws/texts of their religions) require their own theocracies?

Take christianity for instance.. or more specifically, evangelical non-denominational christians. There is absolutely no call or interest in merging government with a religious state. The individual churches are all so different, even amongst the most conservative. There isn't enough common ground to support the establishment of rule of law based completely on religious tenets.

I would consider myself a conservative within my own faith (anti-alcohol, swearing, pornography, sex before marriage, etc.) and I'm okay with dancing, medicine, etc. Or does that not make me fit into your definition of a religious conservative?

As for the first point, how does holding the Bible over the Constitution go against the so called "separation of church and state?" You have to have some basis for interpreting the Constitution. The Bill of Rights is by definition "above" the Constitution. And wasn't it Jefferson that said that he hoped there would be a revolution every 20 years to create a new Constitution -- essentially to fit every new generation? And one who interprets based on the Bible.. wouldn't that make them akin to loose constructionists (i.e. liberal judges)? Should that also be a problem?
 
Instigator said:
It seems to me some of those religious conservatives are unable to live in a country that has to accomodate its own diversity and maybe they should set up some kind of religious enclave where they can have their own theocracy.

The sad part is that, at one time, this was exactly what was going on in England. All the religious crazies left that country and came somewhere else ....


The irony is of course that they all went to Massachusettes and, more or less, founded Boston, now the gay-loving anti-Christian capital of the USA :lol
 
Iceman said:
Take christianity for instance.. or more specifically, evangelical non-denominational christians. There is absolutely no call or interest in merging government with a religious state. The individual churches are all so different, even amongst the most conservative. There isn't enough common ground to support the establishment of rule of law based completely on religious tenets.

I would consider myself a conservative within my own faith (anti-alcohol, swearing, pornography, sex before marriage, etc.) and I'm okay with dancing, medicine, etc. Or does that not make me fit into your definition of a religious conservative?

Oh but they have common grounds. Sectarian bickering merely exagerates what they disagree on.

Don't you want abortion outlawed?

Birth control severely limited?

Glorification of Christian beliefs in public places?

Only allow wholesome programming?

State support for churches and their initiatives?

Pre-marital sex discouraged at the very least?

Bible as fundation for code of law?

Strict control over mind-altering substances?

Politicians chosen for their character?
 
Out of curiosity, Iceman, why are you opposed to swearing? It's not like Jesus spoke English. Why would he have any bias towards the word "fuck" or "cunt" or whatever?
 
Iceman said:
As for the first point, how does holding the Bible over the Constitution go against the so called "separation of church and state?" You have to have some basis for interpreting the Constitution. The Bill of Rights is by definition "above" the Constitution.
The Bill of Rights is not "above" the Constitution. The Bill of Rights is PART OF the Constitution.

And let's get something else straight. There is not "a" Bible. There are many different bibles all belonging to different faiths and religions. But someone who holds "the Bible" above the Constitution isn't also going to take into account the Talmud or the Shari'a or the works of Confucius. And it's one thing to consider the moral implications of a decision and look to a faith as guidance of how to approach something. But for someone to take one religious text and hold it up above the Constitution and somehow be expected to make OBJECTIVE and ALL-ENCOMPASSING opinions? I don't think so.

The job of a Supreme Court justice is to interpret the Constitution and what it means for the laws of man. What God thinks of it is pretty much outside the realm of their job description.
 
Being a "conservative" Christian (in terms of religious beliefs, not politics) , and valuing the rule of law and the Constitution are not inherently contradictory.
 
How can you hold the bible above the constitution when the bible is subject to interpretation itself? For instance, apparently a lot of censorship is from "christian" morals getting legislation, but I'm a christian and I don't see where in scripture a person could get such a notion.
 
Nerevar said:
The irony is of course that they all went to Massachusettes and, more or less, founded Boston, now the gay-loving anti-Christian capital of the USA :lol
Boston is conservative in its own special way; it's like the worst parts of left and right have merged in a lot of respects...
 
Boogie said:
Being a "conservative" Christian (in terms of religious beliefs, not politics) , and valuing the rule of law and the Constitution are not inherently contradictory.

"And" being the operative word. The issue is sections of U.S. society that place Biblical teachings above state and federal law, and see societal deviations from what the Bible says is "The Word of God" as offensive to their core religious belief and lash out.

The problem with such an approach is that it assumes everyone believes in the same God, teachings, myths, etc. That's not the case, and very likely will never be the case. It's intolerant people calling for people to accept intolerance based on strict, literal interpretations of the Bible. Now, does that cover every single Christian in the country? Certainly not. Does it mean that those who do call for such "acceptance" have completely missed the point of their own religion? Absolutely.
 
xsarien said:
"And" being the operative word. The issue is sections of U.S. society that place Biblical teachings above state and federal law, and see societal deviations from what the Bible says is "The Word of God" as offensive to their core religious belief and lash out.

The problem with such an approach is that it assumes everyone believes in the same God, teachings, myths, etc. That's not the case, and very likely will never be the case. It's intolerant people calling for people to accept intolerance based on strict, literal interpretations of the Bible. Now, does that cover every single Christian in the country? Certainly not. Does it mean that those who do call for such "acceptance" have completely missed the point of their own religion? Absolutely.

Not arguing with anything you say. I just get the impression that Instigator takes it for granted that being a religious conservative = wanting a theocracy.
 
Instigator said:
Neither is pre-marital sex or substance abuse. Does it matter?

The only thing that matters is how the argument is defended. "Because my religion forbids it" is a personal choice, and has no bearing on people who don't subscribe to that religion. God and the Bible coming up in a discussion of any of these issues is tantamount to asking for the discussion to end outright, because faith, spirituality, and what are obviously deeply personal convictions cannot be swayed by logic or what's accepted by society in general.
 
Boogie said:
Not arguing with anything you say. I just get the impression that Instigator takes it for granted that being a religious conservative = wanting a theocracy.

Well, they certainly don't want things to be more secular, so it's varying degrees of something that ressembles a theocracy, all depending on who you ask. Aside from a few sects that keep away from politics, religion is not something that is kept personal and private with religious conservatives, it is an agenda that is pushed on multiple fronts on the public scene and in the corridors of power whether teaching creationism as science, preaching abstinence as the only sex education in school or feircely opposing gay marriage.

These people work within the secular state to undermine it and push it closer to a theocracy. They're not pushing a few issues and then simply turn away from power.
 
ronito said:
I am glad that the title of this thread points out "religious conservative" and not just the religious.

Well, religious is too abstract. Religious conservatives apply to a certain category of people, those I specifically want to talk to. :)
 
Disclaimer: I'm not conservative, but I'm Christian.

If you're religious, the values of your religion are going to inform the decisions you make. That can't be avoided. For example, if I was in a government office, I'd apply the values of social justice found in the New Testament to my decisions. It's something I believe in deeply. I don't believe that such actions violate separation of church and state.

Sorry if I've missed the point of your post. ;)
 
impirius said:
Disclaimer: I'm not conservative, but I'm Christian.

If you're religious, the values of your religion are going to inform the decisions you make. That can't be avoided. For example, if I was in a government office, I'd apply the values of social justice found in the New Testament to my decisions. It's something I believe in deeply. I don't believe that such actions violate separation of church and state.

Sorry if I've missed the point of your post. ;)

I'll take it as the input from an outsider. The topic didn't target you anyway. :)

xsarien said:
The only thing that matters is how the argument is defended. "Because my religion forbids it" is a personal choice, and has no bearing on people who don't subscribe to that religion. God and the Bible coming up in a discussion of any of these issues is tantamount to asking for the discussion to end outright, because faith, spirituality, and what are obviously deeply personal convictions cannot be swayed by logic or what's accepted by society in general.

Thanks for the sidenote, but since the topic is about people who put the Bible above all else, you're not likely to get logical arguments.
 
Well, here are my thoughts on it all, from what you guys would call a "religious conservative."

First of all, this whole arguement seems to make an a priori assumption that the Christian faith (face it, you werent targeting this towards Muslims) is not true. Because if you grant that it is true, then obviously the Bible will be above and beyond ANY strictly human document.

But, going from there, everyone comes into something with a bias (i.e. previous experience making them the person they are today). Why are people liberal? Why are people conservative?

There is something within each and every one of us that guides every decision we make. We all have a world view, and interpret the world around us through that lense. Two worldviews are atheistic and theistic in their make-up. A theist will certainly interpret the constituition differently then an atheist will.

Of course, the atheist has only himself and people to answer to, while the theist also has God to answer to over the decisions that this person makes. This brings me back to what I said in my first paragraph. Those who fundamentally disagree with theists on the bench, interpreting the constituition based on their worldview, will not allow them to factor in the existence of God into their court decisions.

You will shout and proclaim "Theocracy!" or whatever in protest. We allow religious freedom in this country, the ability for the people of this nation to freely worship their chosen God as they see fit. Why then, do we suddenly strip that right to people within government when they render judgements according to their worldview? Why do we consider this wrong? I have yet to see an example within any of the three branches of government where someone, against their own will, was forced to accept a religion based on the decrees from a religious government official.

What I see GAF protest about so loudly is not a theocracy forcing people to accept such and such god or whatever, but of people, mainly theists, making moral decisions based upon their religious beliefs, which is protected within the Bill of Rights!

My own father is not in the least bit religious, yet he is a conservative like I am. What is the difference between secular and religious arguements against abortion? Both theism and atheism are on the same playing ground, as both ultimatly cannot be 100% proven, so therefore each rely on faith. Why then, is atheism always seen as the de facto standard to judge everything else against? Yet an atheist could view mankind as the highest being on this planet, and from that, deem all humanity as incredibly valuable, from the tiny fetus to the elderly. He appeals to humanity for it's inherent worth, and a theist appeals to God for humanity's declared worth. Would you actually support the secular argument against abortion more so then a theistic one?

Here is an interesting set of verses from the book of Romans concerning how a Christian should act towards the government:

Romans 13:1-10
Everyone must submit to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist are instituted by God. So then, the one who resists the authority is opposing God's command, and those who oppose it will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do good and you will have its approval. For government is God's servant to you for good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, because it does not carry the sword for no reason. For government is God's servant, an avenger that brings wrath on the one who does wrong. Therefore, you must submit, not only because of wrath, but also because of your conscience. And for this reason you pay taxes, since the authorities are God's public servants, continually attending to these tasks.

Pay your obligations to everyone: taxes to those you owe taxes, tolls to those you owe tolls, respect to those you owe respect, and honor to those you owe honor. Do not owe anyone anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. The commandments: You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not covet, and if there is any other commandment--all are summed up by this: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no wrong to a neighbor. Love, therefore, is the fulfillment of the law.

These are the commands that drive religious conservatives within office. The second paragraph, while from the Bible, are moral commands that are good for all of society to follow. I doubt any of you would seriously disagree with me, as it leads to a functioning, and safe society. The first paragraph though, was written specificaly towards Christians to follow (the "Everyone" refers to Christians within the context of the chapter).

Christians, or religious conservatives, try to do their best to practice both paragraphs within governement. Not only do they follow the governement instituted by God (through the Constitition) but they also add the commandments from the second paragraph when interpreting it. As they see God's law (for instance, concerning murder) as one higher then any right that can be granted to people under the Constitution (such as with the case of abortion, etc.) So by their conscience, just like everyone else, they are guided by what they believe to be true.

I think essentially, what you are against are simply people using religion as a means to promote whatever moral stance. So your beef, if you have any, is really with the moral stance to begin with, and you use religion as a scapegoat.

I am confident that you would have no problem with a self professed Christian on the bench who freely supported abortion, strict seperation of church and state, and full homosexual rights, etc, even though these are impossible to support from a Christian perspective.

I have written about two things here: Why religious conservatives decide what they decide, and why I think you oppose them (if you do, but I at least can assumme most of GAF opposes them anyways)
 
Link648099 said:
I am confident that you would have no problem with a self professed Christian on the bench who freely supported abortion, strict seperation of church and state, and full homosexual rights, etc, even though these are impossible to support from a Christian perspective.

A self-professed anything on the bench has a duty to rule by the laws of the United States, and ONLY the laws of the United States, even if they go against his/her personal convictions. If said hypothetical judge can't seperate the two - can't seperate a ruling based on religion and not the facts of the case as they relate to the Constitution - then they shouldn't be a judge at all.

And this goes for pharmacists as well, who go so far as to deny birth control medication to people not based on the customer's best interest, but based on their own personal beliefs. If they can't keep their religious convictions seperate from their duties, then they need to find a job that either won't give them that conflict, or kindly accept that not everyone believes in the same things.
 
Instigator said:
Thanks for the sidenote, but since the topic is about people who put the Bible above all else, you're not likely to get logical arguments.


Well hey now, what kind of religious circles have you been hanging around in? Whatever they are, step away from them, and pick up a few books by Norman Geisler, William Lane Craig, Mortimer J. Adler, J.P. Moreland, and if you have the guts, Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica, which was his 12th century synthesis of Greek philosophy and reason with Christian theology.

But, I always tend to get a good laugh when I hear statements like this simply because they are completly unfounded. Delve into the writings of the Christian authors who know what they are talking about, and then get back to me.
 
Link648099 said:
Well hey now, what kind of religious circles have you been hanging around in? Whatever they are, step away from them, and pick up a few books by Norman Geisler, William Lane Craig, Mortimer J. Adler, J.P. Moreland, and if you have the guts, Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica, which was his 12th century synthesis of Greek philosophy and reason with Christian theology.

But, I always tend to get a good laugh when I hear statements like this simply because they are completly unfounded. Delve into the writings of the Christian authors who know what they are talking about, and then get back to me.

This was meant for Xsarien who argued for the ultimate source of moral stances on some issues.

Those authors, regardless of affiliation, can write and argue about anything they want.
 
I think essentially, what you are against are simply people using religion as a means to promote whatever moral stance. So your beef, if you have any, is really with the moral stance to begin with, and you use religion as a scapegoat.

This is one of the most sensible things I've read on this forum.....
 
xsarien said:
A self-professed anything on the bench has a duty to rule by the laws of the United States, and ONLY the laws of the United States, even if they go against his/her personal convictions. If said hypothetical judge can't seperate the two - can't seperate a ruling based on religion and not the facts of the case as they relate to the Constitution - then they shouldn't be a judge at all.


So do you side with the originalists then?
 
Lardbutt said:
This is one of the most sensible things I've read on this forum.....

Except that his beef isn't with the moral stance, but rather the use of religion as a crutch for some of the more questionable positions taken.
 
xsarien said:
The only thing that matters is how the argument is defended. "Because my religion forbids it" is a personal choice, and has no bearing on people who don't subscribe to that religion. God and the Bible coming up in a discussion of any of these issues is tantamount to asking for the discussion to end outright, because faith, spirituality, and what are obviously deeply personal convictions cannot be swayed by logic or what's accepted by society in general.


All well said, but I also think that once again, this whole discussion approaches the issue with the a priori assumption that said religion is false. What if it is really true?

Then wouldnt that change everything then? How come within these boards I never hear about that possibility?

And why the automatic disregard for religion? Why is "society in general" always given the greater position within discussions such as this? What about the people who disagree with that? Should "society in general" be tossed out just as quickly as you would toss out "Because my religion forbids it"?

What compells you to place logic above what many believe to be divine revelation? Not that I dont think highly of logic myself, but why is it automatically regarded as "greater" then religion?

I think it goes back to what I said, an a priori assumption is being made that whatever religion in discussion is false. And if it is false, then obviously there exists something greater then it, such as logic. But if it is true, then logic is under whatever God is the author of said religion.

And thats another discussion entirely.
 
xsarien said:
Except that his beef isn't with the moral stance, but rather the use of religion as a crutch for some of the more questionable positions taken.


Which is exactly what I said.....


Link648099 said:
I think essentially, what you are against are simply people using religion as a means to promote whatever moral stance. So your beef, if you have any, is really with the moral stance to begin with, and you use religion as a scapegoat.
 
Link648099 said:
Which is exactly what I said.....

"Scapegoat" implies that his assertion is wrong, when it's demonstrated on a nearly daily basis that he's right. Day after day of talking heads attacking everything from abortion to sex to gay marriage using nothing more than religion as their reasoning.

Religion isn't a scapegoat in this thread, it's use as shaky support for moralizing is the issue here.
 
Day after day of talking heads attacking everything from abortion to sex to gay marriage using nothing more than religion as their reasoning.

Religion isn't a scapegoat in this thread, it's use as shaky support for moralizing is the issue here.

I guess my point is, why bring religion into these moral arguments at all? People could have different moral values irregardless of what religion they "believe". Not all people who believe abortion is wrong are hard core evangelical Christians.

I mean I consider myself a free thinker, and I also happen to be Christian. But I think one of the reasons I became Christian recently, is because I discovered my own moral values which was formed independently on my own, mirrored a lot of what Christianity teaches.
 
Lardbutt said:
But I think one of the reasons I became Christian recently, is because I discovered my own moral values which was formed independently on my own, mirrored a lot of what Christianity teaches.

Do not underestimate the impact of religion on society.

There's a good reason why someone living in a fundamentally Christian society all his life, will most likely find Jesus later in life rather than Vishnu or Ahura Mazda. Society and religion feed on one another.
 
Instigator said:
There's a good reason why someone living in a fundamentally Christian society all his life, will most likely find Jesus later in life rather than Vishnu or Ahura Mazda.
Yeah: there are more Churches than Mandirs or... or... whatever Zoroastrians call temples.
 
I'm wouldn't consider myself a religious conservative, but I am conservative. I am religious, but not Christian, so I don't think it counts. (I'm Buddhist.). But I personally would rather have someone that believes in something at least, not a religious zealot, god knows they're as dangerous as anyone. But for some reason, I just get an uneasy feeling from an atheist on the supreme court. No specific feelings, just do. Meh.
 
I've heard this several times: Everyone's an atheist, just certain people choose to not believe in certain gods.

Agnostic myself. Used to be a christian. If all christians weren't condemning, and actually did the new testament love and not judge and tolerate, I might still be a christian. Maybe I wouldn't literally believe all the fairy tales aspects of it, but dammit all the women in the south go to church.

I used to be a conservative in a way too. You know, small government, low taxes, fiscal responsibility. I still believe in those ideals, but more and more that's liberatarian than conservative. They changed, not me. (well I suppose Reagan started the spend spend spend).
 
Here I'll spice things up:

http://www.alternet.org/columnists/story/20792/

Look at that. You moral religious folk divorce the most. Sanctity of marriage. eh? EH?


(Disclaimer: Source taken from anandtech.com forums. The hell if I know it's legit. teh_pwn is not responsible for the madness to ensue)
 
Bush said:
Y'gotta believe in God, if you can't, you won't ... don't ... fool me no more, if ... you'll never be the President again. And that's what I told 'em.

Goes back to this imo. And I think the simple answer is just to put more Muslims, Buddhists, and Rastafarians into these offices. I'd recommend against dismissing the value of a spiritual life when it comes to difficult jobs. Bush was actually right, in principle.
 
The upside of religious conservatives is that, they're easy targets to hawk cheap religious goods on.

imgad


Seriously though... seperation of church and state is for the sake of you christians, not in spite... imagine if mormons one day take power, and demand all sorts of whacked crazy shit in a theocratic state. Or god forbid Scientology.

Moreover, to Link, that would foist their belief system upon others through applied measure of the law if they could... imagine a scientologist with those same thoughts on the judge bench.

Personally embracing values of church and state is one thing... but trying to enforce the values of the church through the state is quite another entirely.

Also, the values of atheists and theists can be developed independently... but just because there's some correlation between the two doesn't mean they need to be tied together. I mean, somethings are just common sense and will be happened across in the search for a functional society... stuff like no stealing and murdering...
 
Wasn't there a native american tribe, whose land was so fertile and whose life was so easy, that they staved off boredom by casually and cheerfully stealing from one another?

Then again, they were savages, so ...
 
Cyan said:
Impossible. Whether you're an atheist or a conservative christian, you will have personal convictions, and therefore a confirmation bias. Even if you think you're ruling exactly by the Constitution, you will be interpreting it through the lens of your past experiences and beliefs.

The personal convictions I was alluding to were religious-based, I probably didn't make that clear. But a hypothetical athiest judge would at least likely have a "bias" that considers what's society at large would deem acceptable, not just a segment.
 
But a hypothetical athiest judge would at least likely have a "bias" that considers what's society at large would deem acceptable, not just a segment.

I think this is going back to the whole "using religion as a scapegoat" thing again.

Like a previous poster said, it just seems like the thing that bothers people is the idea that whatever decisions made by "religious" judges will be influenced by a certain dogma and not free thinking....which of course no one can really prove.

And even if they are, I wonder why that is so bad. Christianity didn't become such a mainstream dominant religion because its ideals are hard to accept or repulsive. In fact most of its moral "code" are those that have already been incorporated into Western societies. A lot of people say they follow the bible, but that could be because the bible states things that they already agreed with in the first place.
 
you know, google ads never fail to creep me out

imgad
 
I just want to point out that the quotation posted from Romans is one of the scariest, most conformist pieces of propoganda I've ever read. If the Christian founders of this country followed that doctrine to the letter, they never would have left the shores of England.

Would the scripture have equally endorsed the communist USSR? After all "Everyone must submit to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist are instituted by God." Pol Pot, come on down..God chose you!! Ayatollah Kohmeni, your Christian subjects are preparing their submission as per the request of the Bible! God is good!

Its a little hard for Christians to defend against non-theist attacks of "religion is all about controlling people" and "sheep!" with quotes like this being thrown around.


Hate to join the GAF Christian bashfest but..ok who am I kidding. They love their cross so much, hang them from one!!

evil_eyes.jpg



;) j/k
 
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