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[DDayton]

It depends on if you did or did not solve the puzzle without problem. I didn't have any issues - I figured it out fairly quickly. Because I was thinking outside the box, like I typically should in a Metal Gear game. An impossible solution would mean that there is no way to overcome it, no way to solve it. It is perhaps difficult, perhaps unclear to many people. But impossible it is not.

In any event, what you're complaining about is completely different from your argument about "breaking the rules of gaming." You're saying that it didn't do a good enough job of providing hints about what they meant when the time came to use the CD case. That's just an issue with game design itself, not the subject of breaking the 4th wall.

1) It's impossible in the context of the game. You need to resort to an outside source -- and not just the manual, but the CASE OF THE GAME.

2) It DOES break the rules of gaming. A good game should not present a "puzzle" with no way for the user to either solve it or to understand what sort of work they'd need to do to solve it. In a game with an inventory, telling you look on the "back of something" necessarily implies within the game context. You'd be hard pressed to explain how that could refer to something which has no existance in the world of the game.

3) It also breaks the 4th wall, but in a different way. This isn't the game going "Hey, I'm a game" -- this is the game (eventually, once you find the frequency and enter it) going "HEY THERE! I'M JUST A VIDEO GAME! I COME IN A BOX! THE BOX HAS WORDS ON IT! LOOK AT A FUTURE POINT IN THE GAME, TAKE THE DATA, AND ENTER IT." If it were a clever or funny aside, I wouldn't mind... this is merely an obnoxious, unsolvable puzzle.

Again, I think it's lousy, unfair game design. I also think it breaks the conventions of gaming, the 4th wall, and in impossible to solve within the context of the game.

Heck, I'm tempted to argue it's impossible to solve at all -- after all, you take the frequency from a SCREEN SHOT of a future point in the game... that's not really "solving a puzzle."

(I'm probably going overboard, but I really, REALLY hated this stupid concept. I loved the other "weird/4th wall" elements of the game, but I HATED this idea.)

 

[Amir0x]

1) It's impossible in the context of the game. You need to resort to an outside source -- and not just the manual, but the CASE OF THE GAME.

But the "outside source" came with the game that hopefully you purchased. That's neither outrageous nor impossible. It just requires some outside thinking, and ownership of the case.

2) It DOES break the rules of gaming. A good game should not present a "puzzle" with no way for the user to either solve it or to understand what sort of work they'd need to do to solve it. In a game with an inventory, telling you look on the "back of something" necessarily implies within the game context. You'd be hard pressed to explain how that could refer to something which has no existance in the world of the game.

Again, your complaint is with how they presented the puzzle - either from a design perspective or a difficulty perspective (i.e. not enough hints, few references). If you thought this was a problem, it could have been solved in a pretty easy way in game by simply having the game more directly point you the right way. And the "puzzle" would still be perfectly legit.

3) It also breaks the 4th wall, but in a different way. This isn't the game going "Hey, I'm a game" -- this is the game (eventually, once you find the frequency and enter it) going "HEY THERE! I'M JUST A VIDEO GAME! I COME IN A BOX! THE BOX HAS WORDS ON IT! LOOK AT A FUTURE POINT IN THE GAME, TAKE THE DATA, AND ENTER IT." If it were a clever or funny aside, I wouldn't mind... this is merely an obnoxious, unsolvable puzzle.

So, what, sub-categories of breaking the 4th wall? This is why there are no rules of gaming in the way you're talking about it. It gets to the point of convention. It was a cool little puzzle that in your view wasn't executed correctly. That's fine, I respect that. But the hyperbole is silly. I thought it was clever, I had no issues solving it, and I received no outside help. So anecdotal experiences aside, we can see that the actual issue is with design. What you described above is exactly right. That's what Metal Gear Solid DID do. It wants you to know it comes in a box, and wants you to recognize it when you're playing. It's part of the charms.

When Earthbound says to me "Hey you! Yeah, you - The one holding the controller. Yeah. I'm doing a survey, I'd like to know your full name. Yeah, your full name! Don't enter a fake one either because I'll know if you're lying." How much more brazenly can it reference the fact that it's a game that comes in a box, that you happen to be interacting with? It really can't. These things are great, man, and you should embrace them a tad bit more without worrying yourself with the nebulous concepts of "THE RULEZ OF GAMING."

 

[DDayton]

Bah. I just really, REALLY hate the MGS "LOOK ON DA BACK O DER BOX" thing.

I hate it. Hate it. Hate it.

If it had been better done in the game, it would be fine. However, it still strikes me as the one of the most obtuse and inane game design choices of all time.

(...and again, I don't mind "normal" fourth wall breaking... it's when it's down in such a passive, uncertain way.)

Okay. I hate for it dozens of reasons. I'm going to stop now, though.

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

Realism in games - what do you think?

"No sir. I don't like it."

 

[dark10x]

Bah. I just really, REALLY hate the MGS "LOOK ON DA BACK O DER BOX" thing.

I hate it. Hate it. Hate it.

If it had been better done in the game, it would be fine. However, it still strikes me as the one of the most obtuse and inane game design choices of all time.

(...and again, I don't mind "normal" fourth wall breaking... it's when it's down in such a passive, uncertain way.)

Okay. I hate for it dozens of reasons. I'm going to stop now, though.

Not that it would change anything for you, it should be noted that the GC Twin Snakes version of that puzzle was worded differently. I played the PSX verison originally, and it was very obvious to me...but the wording in Twin Snakes would have been confusing if I had not already known the solution.

Twin Snakes was like "on the back of the package" or something, which is far too generic in its reference. The "package"? That could be many things...

 

[Gantz]

One thing I want to see more in games are more interactive environments.

 

[genjiZERO]

That's where the Tenchu games come in (just played Kurenai last night btw, my first Tenchu game... it rocks!)

Tenchu is sooooooooooo sweet that I want to crap my pants. I can't believe it sometimes, but I feel it inside my heart. This game is totally awesome and that's a fact. Rikimaru and Ayame are fast, smooth, cool, strong, powerful, and sweet. I can't wait to play Tenchu to-morrow. I love Tecnhu with all of my body (including my pee pee).

Yeah I always wanted a shinobi simulator.

I'm pretty tired of realism in games though. Sometimes it's cool like MGS, but I'm tired of adding realism at the expense of fun. That's why for the most part I can't stand (most) sports games made after PS1 came out. I like scoring 300 points in a basketball game or be able to throw a Hail-Mary every play; I don't want to have to punt and add a fucking "running game". That isn't fun!

 

[Kleegamefan]

It all depends on the mood I am in..

Yeah, some times I just have the inkling to play realistic simulation games, but with a slightly arcadey twist..

For example, I don't really think Ace Combat 5 would be a better game if it looked less realistic....

I like real games from time to time and I like fantasy games from time to time...I just like good games....that is the main criteria and you can find both good and bad games that are realistic...

Yes, and I am even looking forward to more realism in these next gen consoles...

 

[Hydro_Alexis]

I play computer games to escape reality so when i play games i wanna be able to turn into a cyborg, fly and blow shit up and have a lot more energy and health than in real life.

I dont wanna play rainbow six and become the next well trained soldier, if games became too realistic you would be able to distingish the difference between actual life and the computer themed reality.

 

[blindrocket]

That's where the Tenchu games come in (just played Kurenai last night btw, my first Tenchu game... it rocks!)

I loved the first one on the PSX. I need to check out the new versions.

 

[Chrono]

Again, the puzzle in entirely "unfair" and bad game design.

The meryl codec frequency didn't really bother me, but here's what is really annoying and unfair. Pscyho Manits - you can beat him by SWITCHING THE CONTROLLER? Please.

If I didn't look up a guide I would've never known that. So far MGS is incredibly average. Camera isn't so bad until genome soldiers start shooting from outside your 10 feet range. A super soldier that can't see what's ahead (but can peek around corners by leaning on walls - I can't believe someone said a fair camera in subsistence would be cheating. :lol). The gameplay is just clunky, both shooting and hand to hand combat. Stealth is ok I guess, and it's cool sneaking on a soldier and killing him with the socom + silencer but most of the time I'm just going by the radar. And no, I don't see how the game could be better w/o the radar.

And the story is also nothing special so far

It's not too bad overall, but greatest PSX game according to IGN? This is not even a B game - an enjoyable C one so far. Good thing the game is short.


[/rant]

 

[dark10x]

The meryl codec frequency didn't really bother me, but here's what is really annoying and unfair. Pscyho Manits - you can beat him by SWITCING THE CONTROLLER? Please.

If I didn't look up a guide I would've never known that.

Man, you guys are no fun.

I totally loved all of those bizarre things. They haven't really gone that route with MGS2 and 3, though, but I loved it in the original.

Perhaps it's timing?

I first played MGS right after coming out of "PC gaming" mode (where I was becoming totally burned out). Console gaming seemed so...different (despite the rough graphics) and the Dreamcast had me excited about them again. I was very late to the MGS party as I didn't play it sometime before the DC launch. I knew virtually nothing about it, but had heard that it was good. Totally blew me away.

It felt so creative and unique in comparison to what I had been playing on the PC. MGS and Dreamcast worked together to bring me back into console gaming (after having been away since the SNES/Genesis days).

Honestly, I can't even begin to imagine how ANYONE could have any difficulty figuring out some of those puzzles. I mean, the controller port thing? They straight up TELL YOU TO DO IT in a codec scene. HOW is that unfair?! I dunno, the whole Mantis fight seemed so fresh at the time. However, I could seem someone going in with a bad attitude towards the game not enjoying those things (or if Twin Snakes was your first MGS experience, like David).

Oh, but I do agree that MGS1 was a bit clunky all around...but, hey, it was their first attempt at a new 3D Metal Gear (a series previously viewed in the overhead view only). They revamped everything for MGS2 and it worked brilliantly.

 

[SolidSnakex]

If I didn't look up a guide I would've never known that. So far MGS is incredibly average. Camera isn't so bad until genome soldiers start shooting from outside your 10 feet range. A super soldier that can't see what's ahead (but can peek around corners by leaning on walls - I can't believe someone said a fair camera in subsistence would be cheating. :lol). The gameplay is just clunky, both shooting and hand to hand combat. Stealth is ok I guess, and it's cool sneaking on a soldier and killing him with the socom + silencer but most of the time I'm just going by the radar. And no, I don't see how the game could be better w/o the radar.

 

[DDayton]

Ok... I played the original MGS for a bit (not all that much), then I later picked up MGS: Twin Snakes to play my way through it. I liked the Psycho Mantis concept (the controller thing was annoying, mind you, but a neat idea -- I have no major issues with it)... but I did find the whole "LOOK ON THE BACK OF THE PACKAGE THING" stupid. However, folks are telling me it was more clear in the PSX original.

What, exactly, did the original game say to make it clear as to what you were supposed to do? I think a lot of my generic rage centered around the fact that the game referred to "the package" -- which, in the context of the game, couldn't be fairly said to refer to anything outside of the video game itself. If the original clearly implied the game case itself... well, it's still weird, but no so unfair.

 

[dark10x]

The PSX version says, basically...

"Look at the back of the CD case!"

The word "package" was a very poor choice. Unfortunately, I don't know what they could have called it. The "DVD case"? GC doesn't use DVDs. The "GOD case"?

I first played the game without a wavebird, so I had the rumble scenes...but the GC controller doesn't rumble like a Dual Shock. When Mantis would move your controller around on the floor, it really DID move with a Dual Shock...but the effect seemed cheap on GC.

 

[Chrono]

It felt so creative and unique in comparison to what I had been playing on the PC. MGS and Dreamcast worked together to bring me back into console gaming (after having been away since the SNES/Genesis days).

You know, I think that's Meta Gear's strong point. I'm up to the Hind boss fight and I can't help but love it. The tower climb before it was a rush too. The thing is though, it was awesome and at the same time I was cursing the gameplay. I think this is why I'm so conflicted about it so far. The scenarios in the game, whether you're just sneaking up from room to room or fighting a helicopter on a roof top, are just too damn cool. The gameplay however, doesn't match.


And off-topic but I don't get it when people talk about not being able to go back to a game from a previous generation. Yeah it's a pixilated mess but it's still fun. With the exception of Battlefield 2 I'll probably only play PSX games for the rest of the year lol, it's MGS then Silent Hill then FF Anthologies/Chronicles and a whole bunch of other RPGs.