Recruit killed himself amid culture of abuse, Marine Corps says

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Well this kid was never a Marine in the first place but besides that...you attributed a lot of emotions to a post that consisted of a meme and a question. No pride in the fact that this kid offed himself. More sad that he was allowed to attend training in the first place. The military is extremely reactionary in nature and the fallout from this will be huge.

Killing yourself is an emotional devastating thing no matter who you are or what you did or didn't do. As a service member the fact you make light of it for anyone is disgusting. Its not something you should just brush off because he didn't cross the finish line and its a disgusting attitude. As I said you would never say this kind of crass shit about a service member doing this and the fact that someone who isn't yet is fair game is a sad state of affairs.
 
Guess I forgot my audience, sorry brad.

What? There's a time and a place for GAF memes and it's not in a thread beginning with "Recruit killed himself", especially when said recruit could have very likely been the recipient of harmless "memes."
 
This is fucking terrible, but at least the Marines are acknowledging the problem and trying punish the people perpetuating this type of culture.
 
Well this kid was never a Marine in the first place but besides that...you attributed a lot of emotions to a post that consisted of a meme and a question. No pride in the fact that this kid offed himself. More sad that he was allowed to attend training in the first place. The military is extremely reactionary in nature and the fallout from this will be huge.

You're just a piece of meat in the grinder until the end when you're a burger right? Love this army REAL MEN shit...

He tried to be a REAL MAN, a MARINE now he's DEAD cause he couldn't take it ROFL
 
What? There's a time and a place for GAF memes and it's not in a thread beginning with "Recruit killed himself", especially when said recruit could have very likely been the recipient of harmless "memes."

I mean, it's not a Gaf meme. It's an old expression and it highlights a very cold and cynical view of the world and sadly an accurate one.

Now whether it was in poor taste to post it in this thread, which is your main contention is something I agree with you on.
 
Glad I joined the Air Force. I doubt I spoke more then 2 sentences in a row to anyone in my flight during BMT. Never seen any bad hazing, only punching people in the arms when they put on rank or throwing old ass milk on people before they leave.
 
Whenever I think of the marines, see their logo etc, I ALWAYS think about that 20/20 or nightly news segment on the hazing, particularly the part where they painted the recruits' genitals with nail polish

ALL THE TIME. No "guy must be a badass". Just "I wonder how he got the nail polish off".

Sorry, bro.
 
I mean, it's not a Gaf meme. It's an old expression and it highlights a very cold and cynical view of the world and sadly an accurate one.

Now whether it was in poor taste to post it in this thread, which is your main contention is something I agree with you on.

"Guess I forgot my audience" implies that he thinks it's perfectly fine to say it because he's on GAF, or something, it was a really vague statement.

Though I don't know about you but is the n-word part of the saying? I've always heard it as "people die all the time", which whilst still just as insensitive isn't as bad as saying it in reference to the Recruit in question.
 
In my basic we had someone cook a grenade and kill 2 others in my training at ft benning. My god that was awful as hell.

I do feel sad for the recruit as he probably didnt get the correct type of help and support.
 
This thread has shown me that I'm clearly not the type of person who would make it in the military.

This is fucking terrible, but at least the Marines are acknowledging the problem and trying punish the people perpetuating this type of culture.

It's like a constant thing though. When will the Marines get to the bottom of it? Do they care to try that much?
 
This thread has shown me that I'm clearly not the type of person who would make it in the military.



It's like a constant thing though. When will the Marines get to the bottom of it? Do they care to try that much?

People die every day apparently or something.
 
"Guess I forgot my audience" implies that he thinks it's perfectly fine to say it because he's on GAF, or something, it was a really vague statement.

Though I don't know about you but is the n-word part of the saying? I've always heard it as "people die all the time", which whilst still just as insensitive isn't as bad as saying it in reference to the Recruit in question.

LOL No, the n word isn't part of the older expression, just updated for newer audiences.
 
LOL No, the n word isn't part of the older expression, just updated for newer audiences.

Yeah I thought so. But, as I said, "newer audiences" or not it's still a racial slur. This isn't a Black Twitter thread, there's no reason to use it here other than to show off your insensitivity in front of everyone.
 
Yeah I thought so. But, as I said, "newer audiences" or not it's still a racial slur. This isn't a Black Twitter thread, there's no reason to use it here other than to show off your insensitivity in front of everyone.

I mean, I've heard it phrased the exact way he said it, it usually highlights making a big deal out of one man's death when Blacks are dying in their communities, by police officers, and in jail cells on a daily basis.
 
It's like a constant thing though. When will the Marines get to the bottom of it? Do they care to try that much?
I don't follow this kind of news very often, how common is it? I mean, you're thinking of an institution that has been around for over 2 centuries, it has to be pretty hard to overcome an entrenched abusive culture, especially since there are probably obstructionist leaders within the Marine Corps from the "Full Metal Jacket" days that still believe that hazing is an effective training tool for toughening troops.

It's definitely not going to get fixed in a day.
 
I don't follow this kind of news very often, how common is it? I mean, you're thinking of an institution that has been around for over 2 centuries, it has to be pretty hard to overcome an entrenched abusive culture, especially since there are probably obstructionist leaders within the Marine Corps from the "Full Metal Jacket" days that still believe that hazing is an effective training tool for toughening troops.

It's definitely not going to get fixed in a day.

Bingo.
 
I don't follow this kind of news very often, how common is it? I mean, you're thinking of an institution that has been around for over 2 centuries, it has to be pretty hard to overcome an entrenched abusive culture, especially since there are probably obstructionist leaders within the Marine Corps from the "Full Metal Jacket" days that still believe that hazing is an effective training tool for toughening troops.

It's definitely not going to get fixed in a day.

Yeah but we only hear about the worst and / or most newsworthy cases. How often does this happen on a daily basis and people don't speak out about it?

How long has it been happening? Saying it won't get fixed in a day when it's still happening with what seems to be the same frequency as 10, 20, 30 years ago is absurd.

Someone hit me with the stats so that last statement is overturned, please. I'd like to be educated on that at least so I can have some comfort that it just doesn't come up for PR reasons and then keeps on happening all the same behind the scenes.

The fact that every Military person in this thread has had a story of some sort, even of differing levels, is what really gets me.

Like why do people just accept it?
 
Yeah but we only hear about the worst and / or most newsworthy cases. How often does this happen on a daily basis and people don't speak out about it?

How long has it been happening? Saying it won't get fixed in a day when it's still happening with what seems to be the same frequency as 10, 20, 30 years ago is absurd.

Someone hit me with the stats so that last statement is overturned, please. I'd like to be educated on that at least so I can have some comfort that it just doesn't come up for PR reasons and then keeps on happening all the same behind the scenes.

The fact that every Military person in this thread has had a story of some sort, even of differing levels, is what really gets me.

Like why do people just accept it?

Because it's all about boys being boys and sure its a tragedy but it was unavoidable and they really weren't cut out to be marines anyway. /s
 
Yeah but we only hear about the worst and / or most newsworthy cases. How often does this happen on a daily basis and people don't speak out about it?

How long has it been happening? Saying it won't get fixed in a day when it's still happening with what seems to be the same frequency as 10, 20, 30 years ago is absurd.

Someone hit me with the stats so that last statement is overturned, please. I'd like to be educated on that at least so I can have some comfort that it just doesn't come up for PR reasons and then keeps on happening all the same behind the scenes.

The fact that every Military person in this thread has had a story of some sort, even of differing levels, is what really gets me.

Like why do people just accept it?

To some degree, you have to trust other soldiers with your life. If Johnny Headcase doesn't have the mental fortitude to get through a stressful situation like basic, how well can I really trust him in a combat situation? It's the same reason we have physical fitness requirements. Can it be done better? Probably.

You don't really train for the 99% of your career miltiary that will be extremely boring and ordinary. That shit's a cakewalk. You're training for that 1% when everything has gone wrong.
 
To some degree, you have to trust other soldiers with your life. If Johnny Headcase doesn't have the mental fortitude to get through a stressful situation like basic, how well can I really trust him in a combat situation? It's the same reason we have physical fitness requirements. Can it be done better? Probably.

You don't really train for the 99% of your career miltiary that will be extremely boring and ordinary. That shit's a cakewalk. You're training for that 1% when everything has gone wrong.

Why the fuck does that make widespread hazing, among other issues like rape and abuse, okay?

Are people trying to equate the hazings and abuse administered by peers and the encouragement of said abuse by people in administrative and managerial positions as some sort of mental fitness test?

I would expect to be tortured as a POW, not as someone doing their job.
 
Like why do people just accept it?

The military trains people to follow orders and be cogs in a machine. Insubordinate behavior is seen as a risk even if it does not actually break the written rules. Anything that goes against the currently established structure needs to be snuffed out. Your question does not even make sense from a military perspective.

Obviously there is a difference in how this is handled in different countries, branches and social cliques etc but that's the reality behind all the pretense and bullshit.
 
It's why I didn't join the Military, despite my family's long history in the military on my father's side. Plus Lawrence Fishburne telling me that a "Black man ain't got no place in the Army" in Boyz N the Hood probably played a part in it too. LOL

It's also why I didn't join a Black fraternity at my college, because the hazing was brutal, and I have too much self respect to subject myself to an organization that I thought was about something more. I don't know how White fraternities are.

I'm glad not everyone followed that advice. My Drill Sergeant in ITB (Infantry Training Brigade) was a hulking, beast of a man. I respected and looked up to him and without his relentless pursuit of excellence of all of us I probably would not have the mindset I do today nor would I be where I am at in life. Thank you, Drill Sergeant Mills, you terrifying bastard.
 
I can understand the situation about "breaking them down and building them back up", or I would if it were carefully observed by a psychiatrist of some sort. Are Psyche exams common in these procedures? I would hope so.

I think the best teachers are those that are completely willing to let the student fail but unwilling to let them feel like a failure. Many cause the opposite which causes the psychological issues.
 
I'm glad not everyone followed that advice. My Drill Sergeant in ITB (Infantry Training Brigade) was a hulking, beast of a man. I respected and looked up to him and without his relentless pursuit of excellence of all of us I probably would not have the mindset I do today nor would I be where I am at in life. Thank you, Drill Sergeant Mills, you terrifying bastard.

My father was my Drill Sergeant (Master Sergeant to be exact) hulking, beast of a man, which is why I have respect for the people in our military and the type of discipline and career path they can offer people.
 
I can understand the situation about "breaking them down and building them back up", or I would if it were carefully observed by a psychiatrist of some sort. Are Psyche exams common in these procedures? I would hope so.

I think the best teachers are those that are completely willing to let the student fail but unwilling to let them feel like a failure. Many cause the opposite which causes the psychological issues.

The problem is that he snapped while being subjected to things well beyond the training regimen. So any evaluation wouldn't have shown issues in most cases. If DIs that follow the rules thought he was close to breaking under normal training they would've backed off. These guys didn't and now a life is gone.

The problem with letting failure occur in the Marines is that if you fuck up, you can wipe out a whole platoon.
 
Between this and the rape stuff I kept far away from the military no matter how bad life got. I'd rather starve to death in the street than unconditionally submit myself to mindless macho bullshit with zero character or integrity that goes unpunished and uncorrected the vast majority of the time. The military really needs to get over itself, cut the bullshit, and kick out anyone involved with any of this kind of shit. Soldiers fulfill a very heavy and solemn duty so they should have the highest moral integrity.
 
"Guy killed himself, weak! Fuck him can't make an omelette without cracking a few eggs! "

The fuck man? Empathy ffs.
 
I remember reading this guy's story earlier this year, and he was in 3rd Battalion (there are 3 male training battalions at PI). I also graduated from 3rd Battalion back in the 90's. I remember when we first got to PI we was asked by a civilian in charged of handing out uniforms what training battalion we was in. After we told her that we was with 3rd she started to laugh. She told us that they call 3rd Battalion the 'Beat Battalion', and that we was screwed. The reason for this was location. 3rd was located away from the brass and most of the civilian activity on the base. Of course I took it as she was messing with us, but about a week later after seeing the first recruit hit I knew she wasn't.

I still have scar on my wrist from being clotheslined by a DI. I had a DI put a sword to my throat, a wall locker put on top of me with a DI on top of that while I tried to do push-ups, and I was punched (mainly in chest) several times. Realize during our 13 weeks at PI we were asked several times by our company and battalion officers if any recruit wanted to report any violence. But for several reasons (some are hard to explain and others are common sense of why we didn't) we never reported it.

To be honest if I had to do it over again I would rather do it that way again. There are several advantages to it. We was set to the 'sand pit' less than any other platoon which I found a 100 times worse than taking a punch. I just think they should just be upfront about it. Hey you are going to be hit, but deal with it if you want to be a Marine. If not that is cool.

Also a guy died when I was boot camp by heart attack during swim qualification. Several of the instructors that worked at the pool ended up being kicked out. The Marine Corps has a big knee jerk reaction to these events (see the 20 people being fired for this).

I didn't want to be the first to post this. I agree with this post. I am a veteran and war is hell. Not everyone is cut out to be military and unfortunately some people can't hack it. I believe that the military should just be up front and take every precaution to protect and weed out those who don't have the physical and mental stamina for punishment. It may sound harsh but I don't want to be in a fox hole behind enemy lines with someone who prone to bug out because they are 'upset'.

This is a sad tragedy though. Proper monitoring of this recruit should have had him washing out long before it got to this point.
 
Why the fuck does that make widespread hazing, among other issues like rape and abuse, okay?

Are people trying to equate the hazings and abuse administered by peers and the encouragement of said abuse by people in administrative and managerial positions as some sort of mental fitness test?

I would expect to be tortured as a POW, not as someone doing their job.

Whether or not this specific case, or BMT in general, constitute an unreasonable amount of hazing or abuse is arguable. Rape is obviously a major problem, but that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I wouldn't want to deploy with people who had never had there mental wherewithal tested, and I think the experience that I had(or witnessed) in BMT was 100% acceptable.

Edit: As Cimarron kind of mentions, I think the failure here is that nobody realized he was at the breaking point, and was in a position to hurt himself.
 
Vulnerable people shouldn't become victims in these scenarios. Enough systems should already be in place to prevent this. It's shameful.
 
Is there maybe a way to have people leave the military who are unsuited to it without pressuring them to the point that they kill themselves?

This thread is doing a lot more to make me doubtful of the Marine Corps than the story itself did.

He could have asked to see the chaplain and quit. I know at least a couple guys in my company did that when I was in boot camp.
 
That's awful. I hear nothing but bad things about marine bmt. One of the reasons why I went with the air force. Luckily my time through bmt was pretty tame. Just the normal yelling.
 
He could have asked to see the chaplain and quit. I know at least a couple guys in my company did that when I was in boot camp.

He could also just not have jumped off a stairwell, but the point is that people who commit suicide have mental health issues and need help. Saying they should have made better decisions is kind of missing the point. Probably the Marines should be filtering out people with mental health issues in a way that doesn't involve pressuring them to destruction.
 
I once visited a military base, and they had this promotional poster covering a wall right next to the entrance. It said things like "help us make the military great" and stuff. But with big red letters, someone had written "THIS IS HELL" on it. The poignancy of it left a big mark on me. Haven't had a positive opinion on the military ever since.
 
He could also just not have jumped off a stairwell, but the point is that people who commit suicide have mental health issues and need help. Saying they should have made better decisions is kind of missing the point. Probably the Marines should be filtering out people with mental health issues in a way that doesn't involve pressuring them to destruction.
The regular army never mind royal marine psych exams everyone here and looks at all your medical history. It is one of the only employers exempt from the disability discrimination act.

Surely the US most do this?
 
The regular army never mind royal marine psych exams everyone here and looks at all your medical history. It is one of the only employers exempt from the disability discrimination act.

Surely the US most do this?

I asked about this earlier in the thread.

Its very rudimentary. Have no history of extended psychological treatment? Good to go. The problem comes with the recruiters having to meet quotas and the very subjective nature in which they are medically accepted for training. Sometimes it literally hinges around whether the doctor was having a good day or not at the processing center.

This is clearly bad. I'm guessing part of the problem is that military enlistment rates keep dropping, so hitting the targets gets harder and harder.
 
I asked about this earlier in the thread.



This is clearly bad. I'm guessing part of the problem is that military enlistment rates keep dropping, so hitting the targets gets harder and harder.
Ah thank you.

That is really troubling I expected the US to have more stringent checks than we do after those base shootings a few years back.
 
The regular army never mind royal marine psych exams everyone here and looks at all your medical history. It is one of the only employers exempt from the disability discrimination act.

Surely the US most do this?

For Intel and some Spec Ops positions they are pretty heavy on the checks because of the nature of those positions, but so far in my experience the actual recruiters themselves aren't very privy to digging deeper than they need to unless you make something of that nature known.

I've been trying to get into the Navy for nearly a year now, but because I had one scuffle with a (soon to be former) brother in law when he broke into our house and tried to forcefully extract his kids in a fit of rage after yelling at my sister, the mother, nevermind his rather healthy list of criminal misconduct vs my spotless record at the time (even going as far as almost attacking one of my parents at the time, he got to the phone first and made the call), I've been treated like a psychopath and have had to jump through so many hoops that I'm about ready to simply either try my luck with another branch or just quit altogether.

I wouldn't mind if this was for an Intel position that I was hoping to land, but I haven't even literally been to MEPS yet.
 
I once visited a military base, and they had this promotional poster covering a wall right next to the entrance. It said things like "help us make the military great" and stuff. But with big red letters, someone had written "THIS IS HELL" on it. The poignancy of it left a big mark on me. Haven't had a positive opinion on the military ever since.

We used to get a big kick out of the "MARINES DON'T STEAL" poster.

The military, in general, can be a positive force in one's life, just have to choose the right path.
 
I served in the Army from the late 80s to early 90s. My job was data gathering meteorological information for artillery and my school at Ft. Sill Oklahoma had Marine instructors and students, and other students from allies. Those Marine instructors would hit Marine students with an open hand. They were rough guys. Marines have a tough job, but there's no excuse for treating a person this way.
 
It's why I didn't join the Military, despite my family's long history in the military on my father's side. Plus Lawrence Fishburne telling me that a "Black man ain't got no place in the Army" in Boyz N the Hood probably played a part in it too. LOL

It's also why I didn't join a Black fraternity at my college, because the hazing was brutal, and I have too much self respect to subject myself to an organization that I thought was about something more. I don't know how White fraternities are.

It depends on which branch and how you join. I personally never witnessed hazing (but hey Navy is different from the Marines).

I very much like you never joined a fraternity as well due to hazing. I'm not one for that.


I
 
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