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Revolution dev kit information (IGN)

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gamergirly said:
Wasnt it said that Nintendo put the same amount of money into R&D with ATI as MS did with 360? You cant be logical(or intelligent) saying that it's not as powerful as PS3 but to say it's half the power of a 360 either. It's a double standard given the limited amount of information that we know.

Spending the same amount on R&D does not mean they spent it on the same thing, fyi. Nintendo had vastly different goals than Microsoft. Small, and cheap. Microsoft was going for an efficient system with tons of power from the get go. It didn't have to worry about squeezing the tech in 3DVD cases or selling the system at 249.99 or less without losing any money per unit. So naturally that doesn't mean "half the power" of 360 or "Gamecube Turbo", but just pointing out why such an argument is wrong.
 
Amir0x said:
Spending the same amount on R&D does not mean they spent it on the same thing, fyi. Nintendo had vastly different goals than Microsoft. Small, and cheap. Microsoft was going for an efficient system with tons of power from the get go. It didn't have to worry about squeezing the tech in 3DVD cases or selling the system at 249.99 or less without losing any money per unit. So naturally that doesn't mean "half the power" of 360 or "Gamecube Turbo", but just pointing out why such an argument is wrong.

My point is that we dont have much of any idea of what they spent so much money on. You can have a powerful system that's small, cheap, and profitable. After all, no matter how much MS lost and spent on Xbox, Gamecube's visuals were still comparable for most games. Innovation != weak.
 
JoshuaJSlone said:
This has been brought up before. And as people more perceptive than I was pointed out: we only saw screens and footage of DS games when it was time for the press to actually play them. Thus, any negativity about the graphics could be swayed by seeing how the system's features as a whole came together to make unique games.

What advantage would releasing some sub-X360 screens have for them now, without the context of gameplay impressions to go along with it? And since they seem not to be doing that until E3, they wait.

That still doesn't work because Nintendo DID have game demos available at TGS. They could have shown those demos off to the audience, instead of select few from the media.

Now, I know the arguement, they didn't show off the games to the public because they were basic demos with simple graphics that wouldn't impress anyone(funny that all those that who did get a chance to play the Rev at TGS were still impressed though... ).

But you have to wonder, why were the graphics so basic? Nintendo has had the hardware for a long time, and as Retro Studio showed, it's not that hard to run Gamecube games on the Revolution hardware. Nintendo could have had decent looking games running on Rev hardware and show off the game demos to all of TGS, but they didn't. Nintendo had no problem showing off the DS at E3 against the PSP because they knew their innovation would wow the audience, so why would the Revolution be any different at TGS?

Nintendo's secret lies in the graphics.
 
@littlewig
I agree, it has to do with the graphics.
Nintendo wants to change the interface (input+output). The controller is the new input, the graphics are the new output. But we still didn't see the graphics (*wow*). And then there are also several mysterious quotes, and then there's that thing on the front of the Revolution unit under the disc drive. At E3 it couldn't be opened, and it was never shown what's there.
 
How can the Rev development kits be so cheap though while still maintaining some kind of graphical edge? The thing costs less than PSP kits!

Is Nintendo eating a lot of the cost? That seems so atypical of Nintendo.
 
Y2Kevbug11 said:
How can the Rev development kits be so cheap though while still maintaining some kind of graphical edge? The thing costs less than PSP kits!

Is Nintendo eating a lot of the cost? That seems so atypical of Nintendo.

IMO it's a really smart decision (if it's true). It's better to loose some money selling dev-kits for less than have to sell the console at loss because not enough games are being made for it. Hopefully Nintendo has realised that.
 
littlewig said:
Are we to assume the final dev kit will only cost $2000, or is the $2000 just for next upgrade of the dev kit?

"Revolution SDKs sell for about $2,000"

I think that doesn't mean an upgrade.
 
Kroole said:
IMO it's a really smart decision (if it's true). It's better to loose some money selling dev-kits for less than have to sell the console at loss because not enough games are being made for it. Hopefully Nintendo has realised that.

It's interesting though because a lack of games has never hurt Nintendo's profitability in the past, lol. This could directly hurt that.
 
PhoenixDark said:
Any new details revealed in the IGN podcast? Can someone put up a summary? I can't access the podcast for some reason.
Everything they say in the two podcasts can be read on their website, so don't worry
 
littlewig said:
The last innovation is bound to be something with the graphics. Why else would they have held back screenshots for so long?

Danger of prototyping. In software and interface design circles, this term refers to the fact that demoing a prototype to the end user that is, in some way, incomplete could cause:

1. Lowered expectations. If they demoed the graphics to the public and we all saw that the graphics were exactly the same as the GC, it would be clear that the hype and expectations on the system would be extremely low. As we all know, the CPU and GPU were not in any way complete at that time so demoing the graphics to the public would have hurt the systems perception.

2. Incorrect presumptions. Showing features that are still under testing and undergoing design is detrimental as users may expect that such features will make it to the final product. One of the principles in interface design, when doing layout, is to use generic fonts, use only black and white, etc.

http://www.softwarereality.com/design/early_prototyping.jsp

I highly doubt that the final secrets have to do with 3D projection and all that jazz. Likely small touches to the controller like pressure sensitivity throughout the controller or built in mic. Simple things like that.
 
CharlieDigital said:
Danger of prototyping. In software and interface design circles, this term refers to the fact that demoing a prototype to the end user that is, in some way, incomplete could cause:

1. Lowered expectations. If they demoed the graphics to the public and we all saw that the graphics were exactly the same as the GC, it would be clear that the hype and expectations on the system would be extremely low. As we all know, the CPU and GPU were not in any way complete at that time so demoing the graphics to the public would have hurt the systems perception.

2. Incorrect presumptions. Showing features that are still under testing and undergoing design is detrimental as users may expect that such features will make it to the final product. One of the principles in interface design, when doing layout, is to use generic fonts, use only black and white, etc.

http://www.softwarereality.com/design/early_prototyping.jsp

I highly doubt that the final secrets have to do with 3D projection and all that jazz. Likely small touches to the controller like pressure sensitivity throughout the controller or built in mic. Simple things like that.

Kind of a combination of the points you listed: Nintendo doesn't want to show graphics that are inferior to the other machines unless they can demo the games with the controller to people, negating some of the graphical impact. Showing screens or a video of a swordfighting game might be cool, but if it's graphically inferior to other consoles people won't care as much. Showing someone playing the swordfighting game with the DPD would be far more impressive to pretty much everyone.
 
PhoenixDark said:
Any new details revealed in the IGN podcast? Can someone put up a summary? I can't access the podcast for some reason.

I heard 2x then spec up, devs are pulling off some nice visuals(EA, Ubisoft, Activsion, these are the commited devs). The 2x means IMO 2x the clock speed, things like pixel pipe lines, texel units, polygon performance information is probably known only to these specific developers. The commited support in Japan is alot more higher I suspect.

There's no doubt that if Mikami's team is working on a Revolution title, its going to look great.
 
I thought about an advantage of the low-price of the revolution dev kits. I really don't think it's about attracting independents devellopers. The biggest advantage IMO, is that established small team of devellopers (Treasure, Camelot, all the similars studios that get buyed by EA all the time :D that come in my mind) and big 3D studios too that habitually concentrate their efforts on one or two platforms can buy the cheap dev kits (that we have to remember, cost the price of an high-end PC, maybe less depending on the brands) and can try their ideas for the revolution platforms since the dev kits are extremly accesible moneywise. To resume, it's to attract the main studios to make games for the console, not the indies.
 
The whole 2x thing is a bit over-blown. Keep in mind that the developers that Matt got this info from were working with non-fial dev kits. What we're hearing now is that it'll still be another iteration before the devs get a kit that's 90-95% of what they should expect, performace wise, in the Rev.

Not only that, MHz means nothing. Just because the dev kits and SDK didn't change much, doesn't mean that the underlying architecture and hardware design didn't change. When I look back on the numbers that were leaking out on the Pentium M processor, it was amazing that a 1.6GHz M was beating a 2.4 PIV in certain applications due to the rearchitected design. And here, the analogy is that you can install XP and Visual Studio on a Pentium M or Pentium IV or Athlon64 and MHz is not the king in terms of deciding the real world performace winner. Just because the SDK didn't change much doesn't mean that the platform didn't cange. 2x-3x in processor speed means very little as, for all we know, architectural changes to the processor could mean significant real world performance boosts.

The thing that annoys me the most is that the total lack of any real info has led to some really bullshit assumptions on both sides of the fence regarding the Rev. I just want to see some games and (non-PR) official statements from Nintendo so we can put all of this shit to rest.
 
CharlieDigital said:
I highly doubt that the final secrets have to do with 3D projection and all that jazz. Likely small touches to the controller like pressure sensitivity throughout the controller or built in mic. Simple things like that.

1. Nintendo tries to revolutionize the videogame interface. As far as I know interface means the input (made by the user) and the output (to the user). The big parts of the input, the controller, were already shown, but the output wasn't. This is quite obvious, isn't it? It's not find out that for revolutionizing the output there has to be something innovative happening with the graphics, which won't be shown untill E3 2006.

2. Broke Burgess talked last year about a new 3D technology which will be implemented into the Nintendo Revolution.

- at a major film conference called ShoWest just last month, a panel featuring George Lucus, Robert Zemekis, James Cameron, Robert Rodriguez, and a satellite feed from Peter Jackson has studio reps, journalists, and theatre owners seriously jazzed about their plans to integrate cheap digital stereoscopic 3D (like recent IMAX features or the oldschool Captain EO experience at Epcot) into ALL major chains by 2007. Lucas even showed several minutes of the original STAR WARS with remapped visuals that popped off the screen and hovered in front of audience members. When an agent friend of mine was chatting with Rodriguez (there to pump Sin City and discuss his experiences with Spy Kids 3D), he mentioned how they were aware of a game machine beating them to the mainstream 3D market.
http://brokensaints.com/blog/?p=48

Why had Robert Rodriguez said that if it wasn't true? Why weren't the Revolution graphics shown until yet?


More interesting is this comment of Broke Burgess (which was definitely done by him):
This year? Expect something pretty damn neat?but still crazy conservative.

Will they show the hardware? Of course?and they?ll especially showcase the Rev wireless network - along with DS - all through the convention centre AND LA. 3D headgear? nope. 3D ?presentation??

Oh?and the big games they?ll push at the show - to showcase the new hardware, controller, display, and ?communication? aspects - will be Pilotwings, Smash Bros, Mario ?128?, Metroid?.oh yeah, and that whole Zelda thing.

Enjoy?

b
http://brokensaints.com/blog/?p=312


Well, and then there's this:
http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=13336739&postID=114052428003041742


E3 will tell us more ;)
 
Y2Kevbug11 said:
It's interesting though because a lack of games has never hurt Nintendo's profitability in the past, lol. This could directly hurt that.

Actually it has. Nintendo has always sold great in terms of games but with the gamecube they really had to dump the prices on hardware leaving not much room for any profitability on that side. If they can get more games, those games will sell the console without having to resort to lower the prices on the rev itself.
 
Shiggy, the reason that they didn't show the "output" was simple: there is inherent danger in showing early prototypes to end users (see my post above).

While I don't doubt that Nintendo may be experimenting with VR for the next generation or some other project in the distant future (as we know that they've met with some OEMs of such hardware), it seems highly unlikely that we'll see such hardware this generation

The reality is that:

1. Nintendo, from what I understand, has never built a machine where they've lost money on the hardware (Virtual boy exempt).

2. Nintendo is not going to price this above $249.00 USD...no way.

3. Given 2, it's quite obvious that we shouldn't expect anything earth shattering like 3D holographic projection (yeah, right, like that'll happen).

4. People don't want to wear silly ass glasses to play games. 'Nuff said.
 
Shiggy said:
1. Nintendo tries to revolutionize the videogame interface. As far as I know interface means the input (made by the user) and the output (to the user). The big parts of the input, the controller, were already shown, but the output wasn't. This is quite obvious, isn't it? It's not find out that for revolutionizing the output there has to be something innovative happening with the graphics, which won't be shown untill E3 2006.

2. Broke Burgess talked last year about a new 3D technology which will be implemented into the Nintendo Revolution.


http://brokensaints.com/blog/?p=48

Why had Robert Rodriguez said that if it wasn't true? Why weren't the Revolution graphics shown until yet?


More interesting is this comment of Broke Burgess (which was definitely done by him):

http://brokensaints.com/blog/?p=312


Well, and then there's this:
http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=13336739&postID=114052428003041742


E3 will tell us more ;)

There's this too http://www.gamespot.com/pages/forums/show_msgs.php?topic_id=24328400
sorry if it's old. Well, I guest E3 is the only awnser
 
CharlieDigital said:
Yeah, you know, I might consider it credible if the user that posted it wasn't tagged MicrosoftISdumb :lol

Obviously some silly-ass 16 y/o making stupid shit up.
1-That's why I've said that the coming E3 is the only awnser, not all those speculations
2-We never know. That post is really accurate, but a 3d projector...
 
CharlieDigital said:
The whole 2x thing is a bit over-blown. Keep in mind that the developers that Matt got this info from were working with non-fial dev kits. What we're hearing now is that it'll still be another iteration before the devs get a kit that's 90-95% of what they should expect, performace wise, in the Rev.

Not only that, MHz means nothing. Just because the dev kits and SDK didn't change much, doesn't mean that the underlying architecture and hardware design didn't change. When I look back on the numbers that were leaking out on the Pentium M processor, it was amazing that a 1.6GHz M was beating a 2.4 PIV in certain applications due to the rearchitected design. And here, the analogy is that you can install XP and Visual Studio on a Pentium M or Pentium IV or Athlon64 and MHz is not the king in terms of deciding the real world performace winner. Just because the SDK didn't change much doesn't mean that the platform didn't cange. 2x-3x in processor speed means very little as, for all we know, architectural changes to the processor could mean significant real world performance boosts.

The thing that annoys me the most is that the total lack of any real info has led to some really bullshit assumptions on both sides of the fence regarding the Rev. I just want to see some games and (non-PR) official statements from Nintendo so we can put all of this shit to rest.

while it is absolutely true that MHz / clockspeed does not tell you the real performance of anything, overall everybody has been saying 2-3x gamecube, and they didn't start out by talking clockspeed. we can guess Revolution's performance by the amount of RAM it has, which is the most important thing as far as specs. 88MB of useful RAM for processing data. that's at the highend for this past generation, but not even starting to be next-gen.

If Revolution had 256 MB RAM, which it doesn't, I would feel pretty safe to say that it had the potential to rival Xbox360/PS3 in SDTV res.

first thing I will look for is RAM amount. then the underlying configuration & architecture of Hollywood & Broadway. Mhz only at the end when the architecture is understood.

I would love nothing more than for Revolution to be 10-20x Gamecube. overall I am expecting 3-5x. I do agree that 2x seems to be bogus. that would hardly allow for a difference but 3-5x would.

on the other hand, look back to Namco's Tekken 2 to Tekken 3 arcade. the System 12 board that powered Tekken 3 was only 50% more powerful than the System 11 that powered Tekken 2. not even 2x. but Tekken 3 looked ALOT better. like 3 times better. it was mostly to do with better programming.
 
Still, you can't just compare the amount of RAM in each console.

Gamecube had less than half the RAM than Xbox, but the games on consoles rivaled each other for the best looking games this generation, all thanks to the 1T-SRAM.

My question is, why is 1T-SRAM so special, and how is it different/better than the RAM used in X360 and PS3?
 
Y2Kevbug11 said:
How can the Rev development kits be so cheap though while still maintaining some kind of graphical edge? The thing costs less than PSP kits!

Is Nintendo eating a lot of the cost? That seems so atypical of Nintendo.


IMO its the API that supports this, Nintendo didn't have to spend much on creating a API the R&D was done mostly, there probably some new features but the majority of the original API may still be intact.
 
So you're saying the software environment and API toolset is saving developers upwards of 16,000 dollars off a PS2 kit?
 
choplifter said:
while it is absolutely true that MHz / clockspeed does not tell you the real performance of anything, overall everybody has been saying 2-3x gamecube, and they didn't start out by talking clockspeed. we can guess Revolution's performance by the amount of RAM it has, which is the most important thing as far as specs. 88MB of useful RAM for processing data. that's at the highend for this past generation, but not even starting to be next-gen.

If Revolution had 256 MB RAM, which it doesn't, I would feel pretty safe to say that it had the potential to rival Xbox360/PS3 in SDTV res.

first thing I will look for is RAM amount. then the underlying configuration & architecture of Hollywood & Broadway. Mhz only at the end when the architecture is understood.

I would love nothing more than for Revolution to be 10-20x Gamecube. overall I am expecting 3-5x. I do agree that 2x seems to be bogus. that would hardly allow for a difference but 3-5x would.

on the other hand, look back to Namco's Tekken 2 to Tekken 3 arcade. the System 12 board that powered Tekken 3 was only 50% more powerful than the System 11 that powered Tekken 2. not even 2x. but Tekken 3 looked ALOT better. like 3 times better. it was mostly to do with better programming.


Thats assuming the amount of memory has not and will not increase, which it can with the release of updated dev kits.
 
Anyone have handy that chart from awhile back with the "supposed" two systems Nintendo was considering developing?

THe "higher" end system and the "lower end" system spec sheets?

False, sure, but I'm curious to see where this '88MB' stands in on that list.
... which is still just speculation, right?
 
Y2Kevbug11 said:
So you're saying the software environment and API toolset is saving developers upwards of 16,000 dollars off a PS2 kit?

Not entirely, its just a part of it. We're not talking about kits that are Macs with dual G5 processors and a ATI Radeon card. Or something as ambitous as the Cell processor.
 
Src : http://www.planetgamecube.com/editorialArt.cfm?artid=516

So, you've heard people say that GameCube's architecture is efficient, and clean, but what does this really mean? Perhaps it's time you found out.

Most people compare specs and screenshots of a system without any real idea of what is actually going on inside the box. In all the spec-mongering that goes on, one thing that is almost always overlooked is the RAM (Random Access Memory).

Why? I don't know. I imagine it's because the only thing anyone can really latch onto is the size of the RAM. And in the case of CPU cache (fancy name for a specialized bit of RAM) the fact that GameCube's processor has twice as much as the Xbox's processor doesn't seem to stick with most people. It's just a tiny processor cache after all, it can't be that important... can it?

Well, as you're about to find out, it can be that important. I'll be referencing this article a few times, and I recommend that you take a look at the whole thing if you have time.

First let's take a look at what kinds and configurations of memory GameCube has.

Caches:

On the main processor (Gekko) there is a 256k Level 2 cache, and a 64k L1 cache (the Xbox's Pentium III has 128k and 32k of cache by comparison). A CPU's cache serves as a scratch pad or nearby storage of sorts. It's a lot easier for a CPU to get things from its cache than it is to get it from main memory.

The graphics chip (Flipper) has 3 megabytes of 1T-SRAM on the chip for intensive graphics work.

Main Ram:

1T-SRAM (one transistor-static RAM): GameCube has two banks of this RAM with 12 MB in each bank for a total of 24 MB. This RAM is one of the reasons GameCube has such high performance at it's low price point of $200 dollars. In comparison, typical SRAM has "four to six" transistors making it very expensive.

DRAM (Dynamic RAM): GameCube has 16 Megs of this RAM. Compared to the 1T-SRAM, this RAM is a slow moving dinosaur, but it's not a problem because it's serving as a cache for data that doesn't need to be moved quickly (sound data for example).

Analysis:

So what does it all mean? Let's begin with a paragraph from How Stuff Works (third paragraph from the top of this page).

"Many high performance CPUs now have the level 2 cache actually built into the CPU chip itself. Therefore, the size of the level 2 cache and whether it is onboard (on the CPU) is a major determining factor in the performance of a CPU."

GameCube's cache is onboard, and it is also very large. Why is this a major factor in CPU performance? Well, the simple explanation is that a processor often has to wait and simply do nothing until it gets the information it needs. Level 2 cache is fast (Level 1 cache is faster) and normal memory is not so fast. While a processor is waiting for memory to return the information it needs, clock cycles (i.e. 482 MHz = 482,000,000 clock cycles) are generally being thrown in the garbage. Remember that GameCube's processor has twice as much Level 1 and Level 2 cache as Xbox's Pentium III processor. The difference in cache size is part of the reason that GameCube's main processor is more powerful than the Xbox's. This extra power can be used for practically anything. Nintendo even released a technical document earlier this year explaining that the processor can assist the graphics chip with custom lighting and geometry effects.

Now let's take a look at the main memory which is composed of 1T-SRAM. Let's see what How Stuff Works has to say about this kind of RAM (fourth paragraph).

"A particular type of RAM, static random access memory (SRAM), is used primarily for cache. ... [SRAM] does not have to be continually refreshed like DRAM. Each cell will maintain its data as long as it has power. Without the need for constant refreshing, SRAM can operate extremely fast."

Notice that this RAM is usually reserved for cache only. This is because it's normally prohibitively expensive. However, 1T-SRAM is inexpensive because there is only one transistor per cell as opposed to the usual 4-6. This difference adds up when you consider that a bank of memory is made of millions of cells. So, how much faster is 1T-SRAM than other types of RAM? Well that depends on what kind of RAM you're talking about. Rambus DRAM (used in the N64 and PS2) has a response time of 50-70 nanoseconds. Microsoft did a better job than Sony. Their 64 MB of DDR RAM responds in about 25-40 nanoseconds. However, GameCube's 1T-SRAM responds in 5-10 nanoseconds! Earlier I showed you that CPU caches help a CPU because it doesn't have to access the slow main memory as often, but in GameCube's case, even if the CPU does access the main memory, it's still very fast.

The true benefit of 1T-SRAM is demonstrated by the GPU (graphics processing unit), Flipper. A GPU cannot draw a texture to a scene unless it is in the texture cache. GameCube has a one megabyte texture cache. This may seem big enough, but more texture cache would be better (although it's much bigger than Xbox's texture cache which is rumored to be less thatn 256k). Fortunately, because of the 1T-SRAM's speed Flipper can begin accessing a new texture from main memory in less than 10 billionths of a second. At 162 MHz, Flipper has a clock period of about 6.2 nanoseconds, thus it wastes one or two clock cycles in this time. In comparison, the XBox's GPU runs at 250 MHz giving it a clock period of 4 nanoseconds, yet its RAM responds in 25 billionths of a second at best. Thus, Xbox will waste 5-6 clock cycles while waiting for a texture. Now, I'm not a computer engineer (yet o_O), so don't take these numbers too seriously, but it should give you some idea of the importance that RAM speed plays in a computer. In fact, the actual number of clock cycles wasted may be worse (especially for XBox).

I'll let Nintendo's Iwata-san finish up for us. In an interview conducted by ASCII's monthly computer-y magazine and translated by Video Senki he was asked:

Q: How is 1T-SRAM better suited for consoles?

Iwata: There's a major difference in random-access time between RDRAM and 1T-SRAM. RDRAM's most distinctive feature is that the first read from memory is very latent, but if you read in a lot of consecutive data at once, the latency gradually shrinks down. The problem is, games access memory very haphazardly, reading little fragments here and there again and again. The merits of RDRAM aren't geared towards this type of usage. A typical memory wait is a few dozen nanoseconds, and on a 480MHz processor or a 160MHz video chip that's a few dozen cycles wasted waiting for memory.

note: RDRAM is Rambus brand DRAM

Q: So memory latency can downgrade console performance.

Iwata: Exactly. CPU pipelines have made huge advances, and chips are clocked to run faster and faster, so now memory is the main factor which dictates how fast the entire machine runs. With 1T-SRAM, though, it uses SRAM so reading and writing data is a lot faster generally. It's about ten times faster than using DRAM, so the processor only has to wait a tenth of the time... or, really, not at all, usually. 1T-SRAM is absolutely perfect for game systems. You could almost say the Gamecube doesn't have a main memory -- it just has a giant level-3 cache.

Check out the rest of the interview for more great information. For example, Iwata explains that the graphic chip can directly access memory itself (to be fair, XBox's GPU can do this as well). In other systems, the graphics chip has to ask the main processor to dive into memory for it making the already slow response time even slower.

In closing, I hope you can see that RAM is a very important part of a console. Hardware developers often implement larger processor caches to prevent the CPU's from wasting precious power while waiting for RAM to respond. In the case of GameCube, not only has the L2 and L1 cache been increased significantly over standard sizes, the main memory that usually prompts this change is very fast as well. This is what is meant when someone says, "GameCube is an efficient console". The processors are driven to the hilt and developers can really harness the power of the system because of the lightning quick memory. Of course, it's the games that matter...

Questions? Comments? Complaints? Send your thoughts to david@PlanetGameCube.com or better yet, yak about it on the official forum thread.

David Trammell, Staff Writer
 
http://www.technicat.com/games/whirltourgc.html

Came across this link...very good read for anyone that wants insight into the dev. process with GCN. Incredibly detailed and, more importantly, I think this gives some insight into the decisions that Nintendo has made (at least those that we know about) for the Revolution's design.

* Publisher: Crave Entertainment and Vivendi Universal

* Release Date: November 2002 (US) and March 2003 (Europe)

* Number of Developers: 15

* Number of Contractors: 2

* Length of Project: 15 months (plus 4 months for European SKU)

* Development Hardware: 1.5GHz PC's with GeForce 3 video cards running Windows 2000. GameCube devkits, test consoles and disc burners.

* Development Software: Microsoft Visual C++, SN Systems ProDG, Havok, 3D Studio Max, Adobe Photoshop, Adobe Premiere, CoolEdit, cvs.

* Project Size: 360,000 lines of source code. 900MB of compiled data.
Papaya Studio's Whirl Tour was released on the Nintendo GameCube and Sony Playstation 2 platforms in November 2002 and March 2003, for North America and Europe, respectively. The game, published by Crave Entertainment and Vivendi Universal, combines a story-based adventure with Tony Hawk style extreme sports play on scooters. Although Whirl Tour is a multi-platform title and the merging of genres poses intriguing game design questions, this article focuses solely on the GameCube development.

We started work on the GameCube in July 2001, a few months after the Whirl Tour prototype was completed and running on a PC. Crave received milestone deliveries every two months - the first one involving a GameCube build took place in January 2002. We delivered a build to Nintendo of America (NOA) the following April for concept review, and Crave demoed the game at E3 in May. That summer, Crave forwarded our beta release as a presubmission build to NOA lot check, the group responsible for verifying compliance with Nintendo guidelines. The final submission was approved in September 2002 for the North American release. Over the next few months, under the aegis of Vivendi Universal, we undertook localization for the European release of Whirl Tour, which was submitted to Nintendo of Europe (NOE) and approved in January 2003.
Another reason we got the game running quickly on the GameCube is the friendliness of the architecture. The graphics hardware (Flipper) supports multiple dynamic lights, multitexturing, mipmapping, blending, and fog, so most of our basic renderer features were easy to implement (though optimization required some work - see What Went Wrong). The GameCube combines a unified memory architecture (UMA) with fast 1T-SRAM, allowing flexibility in managing textures and the video framebuffer.

The hardware features a generous 16MB of auxiliary RAM (ARAM). We used half of the ARAM for sound effects - given more time, we would have used the remaining ARAM to increase the fidelity of our sound samples. For songtracks, we used the hardware streaming direct from disc. The disc is small and fast, so we never had a problem with load times.The disc capacity is lower than a standard DVD, but at 1.5GB, it was plenty for our 900MB of data.
Flipper supports S3 texture compression, so we compressed as many textures as possible. Any such textures that didn't look good after compression were reworked. This considerably reduced memory usage (and as a side effect improved performance and load time) and didn't seem to degrade the visual quality noticeably.
Nintendo recommended but did not require support for progressive scan. We implemented it, but neither we nor our publisher's QA group had progressive scan monitors, so we relied on informal testing off-site using personal equipment. Our progressive scan support was noted by some reviewers, but there was a cost in coding, testing, and added risk to the submission, as Nintendo has guidelines on proper implementation of progressive scan.

Similarly, Nintendo recommended but did not require support for 60Hz mode in PAL releases. The number of users who can take advantage of this feature is probably higher than with progressive scan, and this feature was testable in-house and by the publisher's QA group, so it is a more justifiable feature But again, there was a development and QA cost, code complexity to handle both 50Hz and 60Hz modes, e.g. in selecting the appropriate FMV to play, and additional localization required for text displayed when switching modes.
 
BuddyC said:
Ah, Revolution speculation. It's getting to be a problem again, too many threads, too much speculation, not enough facts, and so forth. Thus, it's time for another catchall Revolution Speculation thread.

But you guys are having some, well, civil conversation here. And I don't want to discourage that at all. I'd have stuck this thread, but at 12 pages, it's plenty intimidating. However, it'd be kinda silly to have two threads devoted to Revolution speculation, so, I'm gonna have to ask a favor. I won't lock this thread now, you guys deserve at least that much, but if you guys could keep that new thread in mind ...I'd appreciate it.

For reference, here's a link to the new thread: http://www.ga-forum.com/showthread.php?t=87776
A day and a page or so later, it's obvious my plea didn't go as planned. Thus, plan B.

Revolution Speculation: http://www.ga-forum.com/showthread.php?t=87776
 
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