Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
Hopefully it's early in development and they can monitor the competition for the next few years.
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Riot Games (Valorant, League of Legends) believed to be working on an Extraction Shooter...
- Thread starter Men_in_Boxes
- Start date
Hopefully it's early in development and they can monitor the competition for the next few years.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
Two main pillars...
1. Long form progression (gameplay based)
2. High stakes (gear fear)
Examples: Escape from Tarkov, Hunt Showdown, ARC Raiders.
It's basically the next big thing in gaming.
Werewolf Jones
Member
Where's the League of Legends BR?
Perrott
Member
Valorant is an objectives-based hero shooter -- basically Counter Strike with characters with different abilities, aka Rainbow Six Siege.
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
Why do you think that is? Honest question.
ChorizoPicozo
Member
but what porcentage of real player are going to play this? 
near
Gold Member
A lot.but what porcentage of real player are going to play this?
ChorizoPicozo
Member
100% are real players
Avid Reading Horse
Member
More bad news for Marathon.
Felessan
Member
Riot setup accelerator for for future games like 15 years ago so they probably have concepts for many ideas
Just another adoption of old mechanics from MMO times, one that more punishing and frustrating, so is less popular than others
Wouldn't call it "big"
Just another adoption of old mechanics from MMO times, one that more punishing and frustrating, so is less popular than others
Gameplay Gods Bless
Member
I mean they try to cash in on every new trend. They missed the battle Royale trend and after that they went crazy with "a riot game for every genre". It's worked out well so far, still waiting on their MMO tho.
MiguelItUp
Member
Lol, I guess the Valorant IP really is just a, "Hey, I want a slice of that pie" IP.
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
I remember hearing this when Demons Souls came out on the PS3. "How could Sony let that one get away?"
"Well it's a niche title because it's too difficult for the masses."
Fast forward 20 years and Elden Ring sold 30 million copies.
This genre is about to grow immensely because it's two primary pillars (tension and progression) appeal to just about everyone.
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Felessan
Member
And Elden Ring is an easy mode souls on back of huge franchise.
Yep, when it'll throw full-loot PvP part out of the window.
It'll never reach heights of battlegrounds (MOBA) or field ganking (BR) as it's more sophisticated, require much more dedication and commitment and very frustrating at times. Not things most people enjoy/ready to. There are place for these games and there are players, but that niche is tiny compared to others.
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
Just as they'll dial in the difficulty from Escape from Tarkov.
Elden Ring is still one of the most difficult, modern games on the market.
Too early to know one way or the other.
But if all these genres are a stock, buy low on the Extraction genre.
Felessan
Member
Its one of the easiest action games on the market
Both BR and MOBA took off right from the start. And extraction shooters… Tarkov is 2017 game, Hunt showdown is 2018 - genre way past its infancy period. Its already almost 10 years genre "soon to be popular"
Most people just dont like this gameplay
I spent a lot of time in different types of muds/early mmo and full loot pvp, even though I played them the most, are least likable by general crowd and always had a tiny population compared to more "safe" one. Yes, there is a thrill but there is also a frustration of losing stuff and stupid regrind that put off most people. People like non-consequential pvp/pve where you can play for like 30 mins and get off.
Bumblebeetuna
Member
Same reason publishers green light anything else, want to be sitting in a chair when the music stops.
Bumblebeetuna
Member
I love Hunt Showdown but I agree. I don't think the mainstream market cares for this type of experience. Marathon is trying to dumb it way down and make it as casual as Destiny but I don't think it will work personally. It will still be too much for casual players and the simplistic approach will alienate extraction enthusiasts.
It will launch huge and have lots of gaming personalities paid to play/promote it and then it will just kind of exist, like pretty much everything else in the genre not called Tarkov.
tylrdiablos
Member
Firstly: We've got the words "rumor" and "if true". Which means speculating is a complete and utter waste of time.
Secondly: Why are extraction shooters suddenly so popular with publishers? There's no history of this genre making shed-loads of money and it's a genre that quite a few players are eager to avoid. (See MOBA's such as Lol and DOTA.)
I think Escape From Tarkov is still pretty popular but even its devs have realised it's time to jump ship and release on Steam to make some more cash. (Source 1, Source 2.)
If you're looking to get whales into your game so you can throw micro-transactions in their face every week, surely there's better genres for such tactics?
Secondly: Why are extraction shooters suddenly so popular with publishers? There's no history of this genre making shed-loads of money and it's a genre that quite a few players are eager to avoid. (See MOBA's such as Lol and DOTA.)
I think Escape From Tarkov is still pretty popular but even its devs have realised it's time to jump ship and release on Steam to make some more cash. (Source 1, Source 2.)
If you're looking to get whales into your game so you can throw micro-transactions in their face every week, surely there's better genres for such tactics?
Avid Reading Horse
Member
100% agree. After seeing how Titanfall or even Black Ops 3 went over with the COD crowd, or some of the things the Destiny community is completely unwilling to accept, there is a limit. And getting the loot only to subsequently lose the loot is beyond that limit for the average online FPS enjoyer, let alone the average Bungo enjoyer.
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one as I believe Elden Ring is generally considered a difficult game to most people.
But again, the point is the difficulty nob on these games can, and will, be tuned. Escape from Tarkov will more than likely be considered one of the most punishing Extraction games ever released five years from now.
You could be right. Me and tons of other AAA publishers think you're wrong.
A common complaint with early battle royale was a lack of action and death was too punishing.
That didn't seem to harm the BR genre.
People want consequences. Once this genre takes off, the tide will flip on old style games where people say "Those old PvP games were lame. You could play for 30 minutes and nothing happened."
Arena shooters ---> battle royale ---> Extraction.
We're moving away from repetitive, low consequence gameplay.
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
What does this even mean?
crackajack
Member
like WoW clones and GTA clones, where everyone wanted to do it too and practically all failed. lol
the "next big thing" rarely evolved after its first hits. This extraction genre seems to exist for a while now - the thing is almost as badly named as BR/last man standing, since it is basically just what L4D already was (entering/extracting at the safe zone) , just more convoluted???- and has not yet exploded, partially it feels like it never left development stages.
Sure, might be that the genre is still in its Ultima/Everquest phase and WoW is yet to come, but with so much talk about extraction shooter, over years now, it should have already taken off a bit more imho if it is really anything.
I am not much of a MP guy, but since it sounds like Roguelike it does interest me even less. So whatever either way. Good luck to all the devs that chose or are forced to chase that next big thing dream.
Holammer
Member
Some people think it's the next great thing after Battle Royale.
Surely you know someone that played Helldivers 2? It's technically one, but the purists demand PVP mechanics where losers go unrewarded.
Roman Empire
Member
Bumblebeetuna
Member
Ah yes the infallible third party video game publisher.
No one complained about deaths being too punishing to any consequential degree. That was the point of the BR game.
You can play extraction shooters for thirty minutes and nothing happens until someone shoots you in the back or you die to the timer, same as BR. That or you see no action and you extract with nothing of importance.
Also no tide is going to flip on the other shooters. There have always been sub genres for everything. You sound like some of my friends in the 90's claiming that as soon as a good Virtual Fighter hits home consoles, no one will play "casual Street Fighter" anymore. Of course they were extremely wrong, as you are.
Arena shooters like CoD and BR like Fortnite and Apex and Warzone etc are popular because you load up and hop in and play. Extraction will never reach this mark because it is not a casual experience.
Absolutely nothing shown from Marathon suggests anything more than another extraction shooter with repetitive and mostly low consequence gameplay, same as any BR.
Felessan
Member
Tons? There are 2 to 3 projects and Riot in very unconfirmed state. And Riot has internal accelerator (similar to startup accelerator) meaning that they have many teams those test a lot of ideas and given they already have MOBA and Hero shooter their choice is not that big. What will survive internal culling we don't know, BR didn't make it for example.
Unlike what some people belive publishers rarely go against juggernaut and if they do - they make sure their game is very different. You don't see many GTA clones and last BR was Naraka that is very different from Fortnite.
Publishers doesn't want to go head-to-head battle, so they seek niches that are less crowded where you might score a hit, might not on the top level, but still better than going for suicide. And extraction shooters are on the low representation side of competitive PvP subgenres (I really don't know why western devs dislike PvE live service games so much).
But it doesn't mean that even if they can adapt genre and score success it will be on the level of bigger genres.
Because complaints are one thing and reality is another. Like people compalin about live service game all the time - have no effect on a train. Same for BR - some oldschoolers complained, but genre took of in a fantastic matter and very quickly. And extraction shooters still sit in the nerdy niche and some hopes maybe blablabla "soon"
And BR match is not punishing - it's the same as CS match - you die - you wait for next round. People had zero problem with CS, one of the most played game. BR just added in-round progression and some limiting mechanics.
Once. In an year of 2659.
BR is basically evolved arena shooter with in-session progression (and people like that). Out-of-session progression is a burden, one of the reason why MMO heavily declined, loosing most of the crowd to session based gameplay (MOBA, BR etc).
Yeah... it's already 8 years and we are still "moving"
You should just face reality
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Nocty
Member
I have not actually! I have it wishlisted myself on steam but don't remember much about it, it didn't look like my cup of tea so not sure why I had it wishlisted at all.
I'm sure there are great games out there, it's just a genre much like Sports games that I don't know anyone interested in them. I know millions of people buy the basket ball / football etc games every year but yeah..
diffusionx
Gold Member
devs are desperate to find the next big thing, including Riot. They're also working on a fighting game which I am much more likely to play than this.
My opinion on this "genre" hasn't changed in recent months, I think it's a solution looking for a problem. I don't think the ceiling of extraction shooters is very high.
Generic
Member
Extraction shooters are far more hardcore. You don't lose all your loot when dying in Dark Souls.
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KaiserBecks
Member
Tarkov is a 2017 game, Hunt is a 2018 game and both have an active player base. I've played Tarkov, Gray Zone Warfare, Arena Breakout Infinite….extraction shooters are a lot of fun. After trying the last playtest, Arc Raiders has become my most anticipated game this year.
rm082e
Member
I'm not trying to answer for
Bumblebeetuna
, but this seems obvious: All major publishers are chasing after a future game that becomes as big as Fortnite, Minecraft, COD, etc. They're all publicly traded corporations, and corps are incentivized to take the biggest bets they can possibly take. CEOs of companies don't get rewarded for making small incremental upticks. They actually get punished for not delivering enough growth. At the same time, if they take big swings, they set themselves up for at least 3-5 years of salary while their vision gets a chanced to work through the pipeline. They can also get a break from the board if they take a big swing and it doesn't flop, but doesn't deliver.
It's the incentive structure. It's why all these companies are chasing after AI right now when it's losing billions of dollars per year. If they miss the boat on a huge new trend, they have egg on their face and it can be one of the factors that leads to their forced retirement.
Specific to gaming, no one is going to de-throne COD, Fortnite, Minecraft, etc. Those games have a lock on their player bases. So anyone looking to create a new game that can be as big as those has to do it in a different genre. For whatever set of reasons, the extraction shooter has become the area of focus recently. Companies will keep trying until there are enough failures that they give up and move on. Personally, I don't see any evidence that one of these is going to blow up into a multi-million player evergreen game. As others have said, the people who are into these seem like they're not the average COD/Fortnite type gamer.