Kadayi
Banned
I recently stumbled across this little gem from one of the image threads: -
It something that as seasoned gamers we can all laugh about in a knowing manner, but at the same time it does seem to be the case that it is a commonality of a lot of RPGs that, that special item you fought hard to acquire becomes redundant in no time and is fit only to either hand off to a companion (if you're playing a party) or sell off to a merchant to free up your inventory.
Ironically in fantasy literature you rarely have your heroes engaging in a treadmill of perpetual equipment upgrading, because in large part that's not their focus versus righting a wrong, overcoming a tyranny or fulfilling their destiny, etc. Sure some weapon or item might play a key role, but I'm hard-pressed to think of a time reading about some moody half-elf hero weighing up which magical bastard sword to keep: -
'This one kills giant spiders and makes me irresistible to the opposite sex, but this one here (hefts blade) gives my enemies chronic speech impediments and crippling syphilis....which one to choose...friend Necromancer what are your thoughts? '
'S-ire I d-efinitely f-eel t-t-the f-ormer w-ill b-e m-ore u-se t-o y-ou i-n t-t-the d-i-i-ff-i-i-cult d-ays a-head'
Of course, the reason we've ended down this rabbit hole of item churn is largely due to most cRPGs taking their lead in terms of design from level focussed P&P RPGs, with the most notable being the granddaddy of them all Dungeons & Dragons.
With any new medium it's natural for it to take one's pointers from what's come before because with any new venture there are no maps for these territories, so it makes sense to utilise old models as an initial framework to build off of because it takes time for those early media pioneers to collectively develop and evolve their own distinct language. The TV of today with cable and digital and the ability to binge is far removed from its early days of radio plays with headshots in between adverts for dish soap.
What I think it noteworthy though, is that the levels/loot model drawn from D&D was only really one (albeit insanely popular) model of what an RPG could be. Games such as Traveller (a moderately successful P&P RPG) for instance was more focused on developing a background to your character beforehand and in doing so determining their proficiencies which you'd leverage to your best advantage through role-play, with much less emphasis on gains and a complete absence of levels (a bullet to the brainpan kills everyone, whether they're a fresh-faced rube or a 20 year war veteran ). The focus would be more on rescuing the Prince from the evil Psionic Cultists using your wiles and returning him to his grateful people and much less on whether they drop '+3 laser katanas'
Now I don't hold that Traveller > D&D, just simply pointing out it was a different model of RPG. Certainly, from a design perspective, it's entirely understandable that the system focussed more on levels and loot is a much easier thing to realise in terms of cRPG design especially in the early days of the medium when there were significant tradeoffs to be made with regard to hardware limitations both in terms of distribution, storage and processing power. However, the statistical aspect of P&P RPGs was always there as a means to provide a framework for resolution for what was ostensively a game constructed out of narration and interaction by the players, with the metal figures and maps on the dining table being a collective stand in approximation of the events taking place in the player's imaginations rather than the totality of the experience itself.
So how does any of this tie into cRPGs exactly? Well, firstly I think the case is that cRPGs are still, for the most part, caught in this idea of the game space (much like the metal figures on the dining table) being a model of the experience, rather than the actual experience itself fuelled by direct game-play, immersion and interactivity (which are to my mind the real strengths of games as a medium). Although I think it's probably impossible at this juncture to remove interface entirely when it comes to RPGs (less so actioners such as Doom or survival horror), I think the more developers are able to bake into the game world elements that are commonly handled as statistical interface abstracts the better, and to be fair a few games (though not RPGs) have tried this to a greater or lesser degree. Farcry 2 notably with weapon quality being tied to its appearance for instance, and Dead space with the UI itself being embedded in the game itself.
The second issue is I feel there is an opportunity space to break away from levels and loot as a given and carve a new path. The acquisition model with its emphasis on churn seems to me to always be at the cost of immersion both from a gameplay and narrative perspective (as eluded to in the cartoon). It generates endless dissonance because with every level gain the optics on your opponents has to change to accommodate the upgrade to the extent that before long every other asshole you encounter on your quest to save Princess Beatrix is apparently wielding Valerian steel + 3 swords of ankle-biting. Levels render what was once magical, mundane through repetition and endless redundancy. This is also a huge problem where you've narrative carry through between titles because of the necessity to often reset and fine 'reasons' to explain it away this sudden loss of powers. There's only so much character amnesia one can take before ennui sets in.
Don't get me wrong. I don't dislike traditional cRPGs, in fact right now I'm playing Baldurs Gate again (Enhanced edition this time) and have a long list of isometrics titles I plan to play through this year (most of which I backed on Kickstarter). I've more an eye on where I feel cRPGs could go by placing less emphasis on the familiar tropes of the old P&P model (and loot & levels in particular) versus instead leveraging the inherent strengths of video games as a medium when it comes to world-building, immersion and interactivity by developing their own unique language as a means to generate richer and more engaging narrative experiences going forward.
Anyway interested to hear peoples thoughts on the matter. I don't claim to be the worlds leading authority on cRPGs (far from it) I'm more an aficionado of games as an evolving medium so it's probably the case that you've played games I might not even have heard of, so take more the spirit of what I'm saying as a direction rather than focussing on the exact details per se. This post is TL: DR enough already so I've generalized as a point of brevity where applicable, versus getting into the weeds and turning this from a forum post into a treatise.
It something that as seasoned gamers we can all laugh about in a knowing manner, but at the same time it does seem to be the case that it is a commonality of a lot of RPGs that, that special item you fought hard to acquire becomes redundant in no time and is fit only to either hand off to a companion (if you're playing a party) or sell off to a merchant to free up your inventory.
Ironically in fantasy literature you rarely have your heroes engaging in a treadmill of perpetual equipment upgrading, because in large part that's not their focus versus righting a wrong, overcoming a tyranny or fulfilling their destiny, etc. Sure some weapon or item might play a key role, but I'm hard-pressed to think of a time reading about some moody half-elf hero weighing up which magical bastard sword to keep: -
'This one kills giant spiders and makes me irresistible to the opposite sex, but this one here (hefts blade) gives my enemies chronic speech impediments and crippling syphilis....which one to choose...friend Necromancer what are your thoughts? '
'S-ire I d-efinitely f-eel t-t-the f-ormer w-ill b-e m-ore u-se t-o y-ou i-n t-t-the d-i-i-ff-i-i-cult d-ays a-head'
Of course, the reason we've ended down this rabbit hole of item churn is largely due to most cRPGs taking their lead in terms of design from level focussed P&P RPGs, with the most notable being the granddaddy of them all Dungeons & Dragons.
With any new medium it's natural for it to take one's pointers from what's come before because with any new venture there are no maps for these territories, so it makes sense to utilise old models as an initial framework to build off of because it takes time for those early media pioneers to collectively develop and evolve their own distinct language. The TV of today with cable and digital and the ability to binge is far removed from its early days of radio plays with headshots in between adverts for dish soap.
What I think it noteworthy though, is that the levels/loot model drawn from D&D was only really one (albeit insanely popular) model of what an RPG could be. Games such as Traveller (a moderately successful P&P RPG) for instance was more focused on developing a background to your character beforehand and in doing so determining their proficiencies which you'd leverage to your best advantage through role-play, with much less emphasis on gains and a complete absence of levels (a bullet to the brainpan kills everyone, whether they're a fresh-faced rube or a 20 year war veteran ). The focus would be more on rescuing the Prince from the evil Psionic Cultists using your wiles and returning him to his grateful people and much less on whether they drop '+3 laser katanas'
Now I don't hold that Traveller > D&D, just simply pointing out it was a different model of RPG. Certainly, from a design perspective, it's entirely understandable that the system focussed more on levels and loot is a much easier thing to realise in terms of cRPG design especially in the early days of the medium when there were significant tradeoffs to be made with regard to hardware limitations both in terms of distribution, storage and processing power. However, the statistical aspect of P&P RPGs was always there as a means to provide a framework for resolution for what was ostensively a game constructed out of narration and interaction by the players, with the metal figures and maps on the dining table being a collective stand in approximation of the events taking place in the player's imaginations rather than the totality of the experience itself.
So how does any of this tie into cRPGs exactly? Well, firstly I think the case is that cRPGs are still, for the most part, caught in this idea of the game space (much like the metal figures on the dining table) being a model of the experience, rather than the actual experience itself fuelled by direct game-play, immersion and interactivity (which are to my mind the real strengths of games as a medium). Although I think it's probably impossible at this juncture to remove interface entirely when it comes to RPGs (less so actioners such as Doom or survival horror), I think the more developers are able to bake into the game world elements that are commonly handled as statistical interface abstracts the better, and to be fair a few games (though not RPGs) have tried this to a greater or lesser degree. Farcry 2 notably with weapon quality being tied to its appearance for instance, and Dead space with the UI itself being embedded in the game itself.
The second issue is I feel there is an opportunity space to break away from levels and loot as a given and carve a new path. The acquisition model with its emphasis on churn seems to me to always be at the cost of immersion both from a gameplay and narrative perspective (as eluded to in the cartoon). It generates endless dissonance because with every level gain the optics on your opponents has to change to accommodate the upgrade to the extent that before long every other asshole you encounter on your quest to save Princess Beatrix is apparently wielding Valerian steel + 3 swords of ankle-biting. Levels render what was once magical, mundane through repetition and endless redundancy. This is also a huge problem where you've narrative carry through between titles because of the necessity to often reset and fine 'reasons' to explain it away this sudden loss of powers. There's only so much character amnesia one can take before ennui sets in.
Don't get me wrong. I don't dislike traditional cRPGs, in fact right now I'm playing Baldurs Gate again (Enhanced edition this time) and have a long list of isometrics titles I plan to play through this year (most of which I backed on Kickstarter). I've more an eye on where I feel cRPGs could go by placing less emphasis on the familiar tropes of the old P&P model (and loot & levels in particular) versus instead leveraging the inherent strengths of video games as a medium when it comes to world-building, immersion and interactivity by developing their own unique language as a means to generate richer and more engaging narrative experiences going forward.
Anyway interested to hear peoples thoughts on the matter. I don't claim to be the worlds leading authority on cRPGs (far from it) I'm more an aficionado of games as an evolving medium so it's probably the case that you've played games I might not even have heard of, so take more the spirit of what I'm saying as a direction rather than focussing on the exact details per se. This post is TL: DR enough already so I've generalized as a point of brevity where applicable, versus getting into the weeds and turning this from a forum post into a treatise.