Hudo
Member
The Grognards over at RPGCodex have also updated their best CRPG list recently.
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What is your favorite CRPG of all time?
- Thread starter Mozzarella
- Start date
- Opinion Community Poll
Touch fuzZy. get BizZay
Member
those who played it just how good is wrath of the righteous
I got it cheaply but when I look up vids about it everything seems really dense like constant info overload
I got it cheaply but when I look up vids about it everything seems really dense like constant info overload
Hudo
Member
It's not an easy game to get into. It is usually recommended to know either Pathfinder 1e or D&D 3.5 at least the basics, so you don't produce crap builds. Because in its essence, Wrath of the Righteous (and also Kingmaker) is a build-experimentation game, imho. And be ready for a lot of trash fights and a lot of buff management*.
On the plus side, however, you can create builds that absolutely destroy the game, which can be fun. But I never got that far since I just don't like the encounter design (lots of trash fights) coupled with excessive buff management. It also didn't help that I am usually not the biggest fan of real-time with pause combat.
But if you like CRPGs a lot (BG1 and BG2) and you like building characters within D&D3.5 or Pathfinde 1e, you will probably have fun.
Laptop1991
Member
I only played Pool of Radiance on that list back in the Amiga days, so i chose that, i enjoyed it at the time.
Touch fuzZy. get BizZay
Member
btw shout out to betrayal at krondor, zero votes in the poll but that was an awesome game in its day
Sentenza
Member
Wrath of the Righteous would be another strong contender for me. My problem with it is twofold:
- I absolutely despise the game's encounter design (enemies with overtuned stats, twenty stacks of buffs and immunities, etc, etc).
- I also fiercely dislike how overtuned in favor of almost-mandatory-prebuffing the entire ruleset is, which ties to the previous point.
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Sentenza
Member
I would somewhat accept your last point, but not in a chart where you rate "pile of trash even for its era" NWN so high.
EDIT- Nah, on second thought even with its flaws BG3 still runs circles even around Wastelands 3 and Dragon Age Origins. You are tripping.
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vaibhavpisal
Member
I wouldn’t say BG3 is garbage, but overall in same ballpark as other titles.
I do think BG2, DAO, Wasteland 3 I enjoyed a bit more.
West Texas CEO
GAF's Nicest Lunch Thief and Nosiest Dildo Archeologist
Ach, I always hear people put Xenogears and Planescape in the same vein.I gave my vote to Planescape Torment, to this day I still think it has the best story in a CRPG (gameplay kinda meh not gonna lie) and if it weren't for the existance of Xenogears and recently 13 Sentinels, it would have the best story in gaming period.
I simply must give it a go someday.
And 13 Sentinels, too!
Btw, if you're a crpg fan, I can't recommend the CRPG Book enough. Got the physical versions, and I have no regrets.
https://www.bitmapbooks.com/products/the-crpg-book-a-guide-to-computer-role-playing-games
https://www.bitmapbooks.com/products/the-crpg-book-a-guide-to-computer-role-playing-games
Mozzarella
Member
They are on the poll! No serious person leaves Fallout 1, its a GOATed CRPG
BG3 not only has better combat, but also better world design, the level design and the dungeons are on a whole new level and all that extends to the gameplay being top tier, the combat is obviously amazing but also the whole gameplay systems at work, from immersive-sim mechanics to rich interactivity and physics and dynamic systems that all come together, its a gamey ass game in the best possible way imo, few CRPGs go that route, most of them put the most investment into their writing and dialogue trees and the choice and consequences part, what made me put BG3 ahead was that its gameplay is king.
I also love Temple of Elemental Evil, great combat and the best gameplay of 3.5E DnD, i wish other parts were as good. I would included it if the poll allowed for more options but i figure 2 games from Troika was already enough and tbh its very very niche game.
If i made it 10 votes i would've put Baldur's Gate 2, its on my top 10 Crpgs list but its near the end of it, great game for sure.
RPGCodex
Yeah great story, i assume many people never heard of it, would be good if it gets a faithful remake as it has become forgotten, but sadly few devs will do it justice.
Baldur's Gate 1 is literally garbage
I was conflicted on which Pillars of Eternity game i should put, they are very similar, but i always thought PoE 2 has a slightly worse writing than 1, and i wanted to give more credit to PoE since its one of the Crpgs that revived the genre, but yeah you can vote for PoE anyway, you can assume it includes both games, i was limited with what to include.
I could've done the top 10 list with points method, but that would be a pain in the ass to do and honestly this genre is niche, not many people played more than 10 games so it doesnt matter that much, would be cool to do that in Best Action RPG thread though.
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Hudo
Member
Their list is fairly solid.RPGCodex
FluffShake
Member
BG3 for gameplay, Planescape Torment for writing, Pathfinder: WotR for the sheer breadth and customization.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
The Cockatrice
Gold Member
Tough to pick a favorite one.
Story wise mechnically, Baldurs Gate 3, no doubt, it's insane how many outcomes there are in such a high production value.
RPG-wise and core mechanics, I think Pathfinder Wrath is unmatched even by old ones. It has so much things going for it, not to mention besides the classic CRPG, it also boosts a heroes of might and magic mechanic, albeit a bit basic, but still crazy it has so much going for it. It's also the longest and biggest game out of all crpgs.
Most fun crpg is no doubt Divinity OS2. Fantastic gameplay and crazy on some of the things you can pull in combat. It pissed me off that BG3 was far worse and tamed compared to it.
As for overall story presentation, KOTOR, because, well star wars, and an amazing twist.
Story wise mechnically, Baldurs Gate 3, no doubt, it's insane how many outcomes there are in such a high production value.
RPG-wise and core mechanics, I think Pathfinder Wrath is unmatched even by old ones. It has so much things going for it, not to mention besides the classic CRPG, it also boosts a heroes of might and magic mechanic, albeit a bit basic, but still crazy it has so much going for it. It's also the longest and biggest game out of all crpgs.
Most fun crpg is no doubt Divinity OS2. Fantastic gameplay and crazy on some of the things you can pull in combat. It pissed me off that BG3 was far worse and tamed compared to it.
As for overall story presentation, KOTOR, because, well star wars, and an amazing twist.
ClanOfNone
Member
The game is magnificent, but it is the densest game on the list by far I’d say. The amount of character customization is unmatched, and they have some really interesting/unique ones.
There are multiple “mythic” paths on top of that. Become a lich and resurrect your dead companions against their will. Demons, devils, angels, gold dragons, an all consuming swarm of insects, you can actually become all that shit and more and it is awesome.
Information overload is assured, especially if you have no intrinsic knowledge of DnD, which Pathfinder is heavily based upon.
Still you can tailor the difficulty to your liking with a lot of options. Combat can be set to turn based or real time with pause, something I sorely missed in my BG3 playthrough.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
Admittedly, there's a lot of good ones that I still have yet to play, but I'd have to go with Divine Divinity. It came out back in 2002 and was basically a more RPG-heavy version of Diablo. You had the usual Diablo clone combat trappings, which felt really good, but you also had a giant world to explore that was very densely packed with cool stuff, lots of quests that were well designed, and a real feeling of adventure. An excellent middle ground between ARPGs and CRPGs. The visuals were great and had some really solid 2D artwork, and the soundtrack was fantastic. I really would love to see another action RPG that grabs me the way that game did.
archangelmorph
Member
Why is the Witcher series not listed in the poll?
vaibhavpisal
Member
Combat is far better in BG2. You need to use everything in your repertoire to succeed.
BG3 on normal is piss easy. Toughest fight in game by far, Raphael, we prepared for some 15-20 minutes to sort our spells (mainly globe of invulnerability, some summons etc), and we took exactly zero damage.
Yes, this is great in BG3, especially layering and verticality in map.
DOS2 has better Im - Sim elements. BG3 felt restricted in comparison, probably by rule set.
Last Hearth
Member
Voted for Betrayal at Krondor, KOTOR, Fallout 2, BG3, and Planescape: Torment.
I'm sad I have to leave DA:O, Pathfinder: WOTR off the list. But I can't bring myself to take any of the current 5 off the list either.
I'm sad I have to leave DA:O, Pathfinder: WOTR off the list. But I can't bring myself to take any of the current 5 off the list either.
Mozzarella
Member
Can you explain the combat part? DOS2 has one of my favorite combat systems, but it can be flawed in some areas, mainly lacking in enemy variety and lack of strategy, the tactical aspect of it is great and its so much fun, but strategy is usually one dimensional, i love some spells from that game but the fact that they require source was annoying to me, i didn't mind the armor mechanic system but as fun as it was i still prefer the Dungeons & Dragons traditional systems to it, the chance based dice rolls add more to the combat and makes replaying it more exciting as you fail on one plan you can pull out the other and execute it, whereas in Divinity you can't fail, its all calculated and the plan will play out exactly how you want it, which is good but as you tend to focus on the same goals it will gradually lose its strategical depth.
I also find that movement bar being separate is way better than action points being a movement resource, this way you get to move around and leave action for you know actual actions, i also felt too many enemies had teleport so my positiong advantage barely mattered.
Despite those minor flaws i think DOS2 deserves its credit for being the foundation of BG3 combat which i love, DOS2 is still in my top 10 turn-based combat systems of all time, i loved it too much. I was actually suspicious about BG3 living up to it, but they just outdid it, some spells in DOS2 are insanely fun though i miss them.
Only Witcher 1 can count as a CRPG and i was limited with my choices, its definitely a rough game and an acquired taste, but i believe there are better games that deserve to be there.
The Combat in BG2 was too basic for me, all i had to do was autobuff before battle (casting the same spells everytime) and watch the game play itself, i mean its alright for its time period but its not engaging at all. Difficulty doesn't mean anything when it comes to combat quality, the old BG games were also easy, if you get boots of speed you can kite enemies easily and the rest is history. A buffed Paladin can easily destroy anything in the game, all you need to do is to know what spells to use and what build to make, the actual mechanical input is pretty easy and shallow. Also you can't interact with the environment or throw stuff, the encounter design isn't as good either which is an important part of combat design. Also Breach and Dispel solve nearly every encounter.
I honestly think Pillars of Eternity had better combat system than BG1 and BG2.
Can you explain how the immersive sim elements are better in Divinity OS2? because i played both and BG3 is definitely an upgrade from that in every single way, can you pinpoint at what exactly it does better? I mean BG3 nearly allows you to finish the whole game as a Cat, like you are forced to change back only 1 single time, the rest of the game is completely playable and beatable just as a Cat which is hilarious.
Still not a single vote for Wizardry 7? Its the best Wizardry game come on do it.
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The Cockatrice
Gold Member
Explain what exactly? Why I find it fun? BG3 is your standard turn based rng combat, environments are used 20% of the time and most classes such as fighter, archer or whatever just spam their basic attacks, while the others have 10 spells and need to worry which to use before rest. It just wasnt fun at all. In DOS2, the environment is part of the combat as well as all the elements. Wanna make a fire cloud? Awesome. Wanna electrify water? Yep. Wanna bless the blood on the ground. Sure why not? It's a sandbox and you're having fun and recking everything.
Touch fuzZy. get BizZay
Member
Yeah I voted DOS2 even though there are goat games with incredible stories like planescape on the list just because DOS2 combat is a crazy fun playground of ridiculous powers and situations.
Buggy Loop
Gold Member
Also, want to add that I almost always enjoyed my time with almost any cRPG.
Torment Tides of Numenera comes to mind, a lot of peoples skipped on it because of reviews, but the lore and visuals in that game is something else. I wish more games would explore Numenera's world. Very well written.
Torment Tides of Numenera comes to mind, a lot of peoples skipped on it because of reviews, but the lore and visuals in that game is something else. I wish more games would explore Numenera's world. Very well written.
Touch fuzZy. get BizZay
Member
I actually never read a Raymond E Feist novel before I played the game, upon playing it I read his books and I liked the writing by the devs in the game better!
I also thought the puzzles on the treasure chests were amazing, you had to solve riddles to open chests and some of them were very good.
If anyone does like to play retro vga rpgs and decides to play this one, make sure you do it in a way where you have the CD music and not midi music because the music is really atmospheric and immersive:
Mozzarella
Member
This is just wrong though, how is it that Environments are used 20% in BG3 when you can do even more?
Let me start bit by bit, Fighter doesn't just do basic attacks, you can use a variety of superiority dice attacks that all have strategic effects on the battlefield and Rangers have access to skills that can do multiple damages and there is certainly more arrow types to use in the game, one example is the Arrow of Transportation which can be used to gain positioning advantage or to bypass certain areas and explore levels from a different perspective, last i checked you cannot jump on rooftops in DOS2, sure you can gain verticality in combat as you can do in BG3 but its more restrictive in that regard. Next is sneaking, the sneaking in DOS2 costs so much AP its not optimal to use unless you initiate fights with it, meanwhile in BG3 sneaking is a viable tactic to use during combat because it bonus action dependent in the rogue class and you can use the environmental lighting and objects to utilize it to its max, gaining advantage on attacks, in DOS2 i found sneaking to be useful only in two cases, one is when you want to steal (obviously) and two when you want to start combat, you can use it to gain initial advantage, thats about it, in BG3 you can play entirely around sneaking and its a viable way to play.
Lets talk a bit about Spells, DOS2 spells are great and unique but many of them overlap with each other, all fine but BG3 offers a wider range of spell variety and a lot of it can be used outside combat, you have also spells that you get from weapons, ability powers from illithids and various other special perks you gain during the game, definitely more so than Divinity, but i can't deny some Spells in DOS2 are S tier of awesomeness, like most of Polymorph skill tree and the Blood magic and Bless.
You actually bring up Bless and its an amazing spell, gives a lot of synergy options with other spells thats definitely one spell DOS2 has that is great that BG3 doesnt have.
As for the Environment being part of the combat, i dont understand your argument there, because believe it or not, you can do all that in BG3, you can create steam and electrify it, same with water, you can still cast web and jump on the web to avoid fall damage, you can cast oil and light it on fire, the only thing it doesn't have is a spell like Bless, but for example Bless + Web gives haste, in BG3 you can throw a Haste grenade or use Haste spores to gain Haste from the environment as well.
Throwing objects is using the environment, in the fight against Grym in the forge you can use the hammer to beat the boss, thats use of environment, in the Spider boss you can burn the web when she is on the web bridge and cause her to fall thats environment, in the fight against Ansur you can stand behind the crystals which completely protect you from his nuke thats use of environment, see a pit? you can shove enemies down there! In the first area you literally have a hanging rock conventionally placed there, so you can use one of those alien blubs you got from the nautiloid to gather them and drop it one them resulting in a multikill, thats use of environment. You can't just ignore half of the environment interaction in BG3.
As far as i know in DOS2 you can't stack boxes on top of each other and climb them, there is not even Jump, there is ofcourse flight but i tried it many times and you cant reach unreachable places with it, its only reserved for verticality in combat which sadly is undermined thanks to enemies all having Teleport, which brings us back to spells, a lot of classes have access to one teleport skill, Ranger has Tactical Retreat, Rogue has Cloak and Dagger, Mage has Teleport, Fighter has Phoenix Dive, they are all teleport variants, this is annoying because if you set up your mage correctly you think you just gained a positional advantage but in the end the fighter magister can just follow you with a teleport again, in BG3 for example you can use the rogue to gain that same positional advantage and because of bonus actions you dont lose 4AP just for attempting to sneak attack, you then can move around while invisible and you can reposition yourself to strike again, it can be very tactical.
Ofcourse you also have the many items you can throw from potions to weapons or grenades, the Explosive arrow is far more satisfying as well, in DOS2 you create smoke, in BG3 you create darkness.
There are many aspects on which you can play with the sandbox, like in Act 3 side quests you are required to trespass the printing press media outlet that wants to defame you, one of the many ways you can do it, is to stack a lot of boxes on top of each other and use arrow of transportation to gain access from the rooftops. Sorcs for example can twin their spells or give different effects using their class specialty, in DOS2 every mage uses the spells and thats it, there is no unique specialties to use.
Lets talk summoning, in DOS2 you gain access to few summons, but they are not that deep, in BG3 the elemental summons have far more abilities and can be used in multiple ways, you can also summon a familiar if you are a ranger or gain access to the Slayer form, or use the Druid to transform to an animal or summon a Woodland spirit and make it summon vines as well. As much as I love DOS2 there is no denying that BG3 has more depth at its disposal, from basic mechanics like throw, jump, shove and dip, to many different spells and skills to use, to a lot of different boss fights and enemies, to clever use of environment to solve puzzles or gimmick bosses, its just an upgrade all around.
Now one last thing is that DOS2 has its strengths, for example you can use a lot of cool synergies thanks to Bless, you can use many CC effects from the environmental elements but the armor mechanic takes a bit from that, you have access to some great spells like Ruptured Tendos + Haste + Polymorph to chicken, this is one great combo you can use on an enemy but the fact that you have to take their physical armor first takes away from its coolness.
Bless as you just said is an amazing spell with many uses, i wish it didn't use source though but i also would've loved if DnD had something that worked like it, I personally like the spell that swaps surfaces. I always defend DOS2 systems they are great but saying BG3 is far worse compared to it is objectively wrong, just say you prefer its design over DnD and Dice Rolls and that would be fair by me. Again if you feel there is something i missed feel free to explain and mention it, it has been a while since i last played Divinity so maybe there are far cooler stuff i missed.
Yeah same, i also prefer the writing of the video game over the novel.
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vaibhavpisal
Member
About BG2…
How will one know which builds to make? All this is privy to veterans of the game and requires multiple play through or at least an internet guide (why will you use them
). Veteran players don’t need builds anyways and can do it without them as well. As for encounter design, I think BG2 did it way better. There were regular parties of mix fighter and mages and every battle needed rethink on how to win. Spamming of buff spells is possible only if you rest every 2-3 battles, again not something I do. Am on a urgent quest and rest only when necessary
.Yeah, it doesn’t have environmental interactivity, that adds im sim elements to BG3. Thats a Larian thing and if you love that, you might miss it in BG2. Though I still felt BG2 was more tactical and I failed rolls and died in battles much more often.
As for POE, I haven’t played part 2, but didn’t like part 1 combat. Didn’t felt as satisfying as infinity engine games. Difficult to put a finger on it. It has ingredients, but I didn’t get the kick by winning battles that I did in BG2.
In DOS 2 I could make a wall out of boxes, then teleport enemies behind it and trap them there. Or teleport friendly npcs if they are part of battle to keep them safe.
Not possible in BG3.
Or in act 3, a lot of quests required entering secret areas that were heavily guarded. But I couldn’t enter there without triggering a massive fight. I had tools at my disposal in DOS 2 where I could’ve done that.
Cyberpunkd
Member
World of Warcraft, and I’m saying that having played majority of cRPG releases in the last 30 years.
No other game have me this sense of wonder and a world to explore. Early after launch going into Silithius, LFG for hours to run BRD or Scholomance (which itself took hours). Walking into Plaguelands for the first time, etc.
Close second is the Witcher series, cannot pick a specific game since they are all rather different.
No other game have me this sense of wonder and a world to explore. Early after launch going into Silithius, LFG for hours to run BRD or Scholomance (which itself took hours). Walking into Plaguelands for the first time, etc.
Close second is the Witcher series, cannot pick a specific game since they are all rather different.
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Cyberpunkd
Member
He also didn’t put any Witcher game, smth.
Bumblebeetuna
Member
I haven’t played most of those but Wasteland 3 is pretty awesome
digital_ghost
Member
The best crappy rpg:
S0ULZB0URNE
Member
Final Fantasy 3(6 Japan)
The Cockatrice
Gold Member
What you seem to not understand is that more does not equal better or fun. Regarding environments and freedom, aka the sandbox, you are wrong, and let me remind you that there is absolutely nothing in BG3 to match the insanity of the oil pits for example from DOS2. Kicking, jumping and pushing someone isnt exactly wow fun. Glad u liked BG3 more but you aint me.
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Wildebeest
Member
If character creation and builds are the worst things about RPGs for you, then the Owlcat Pathfinder games are hell, but if you like making characters they are heaven. You can play them turn based to deal with overload, but you are volunteering to turn a 100-hour game into a 200-hour game.
DelireMan7
Member
I'd like to vote but I haven't play enough CRPG.
I just played Dragon Age Origins, Baldur's Gate 1 and 3.
Its a genre that fascinate me and I always had a blast on the one I played. But the time commitment is what makes me push them away sometimes.
Kotor is on my list since a while. Also have Divinity Original Sin and Baldur's Gate 2 on my shelves.
And so many on your list I want to play... but time...time...
I just played Dragon Age Origins, Baldur's Gate 1 and 3.
Its a genre that fascinate me and I always had a blast on the one I played. But the time commitment is what makes me push them away sometimes.
Kotor is on my list since a while. Also have Divinity Original Sin and Baldur's Gate 2 on my shelves.
And so many on your list I want to play... but time...time...
vaibhavpisal
Member
You sure you are not misremembering something??
You can go invisible in DOS2 for minimal cost, and backstabs are a thing, depending on your positioning.
This is replaced by stealth attacks in BG3, but you need advantage against your enemies, need to be humanoid etc tons of requirements. Doesn’t feel as good. On top, a lot of times I didn’t get position advantage despite being on higher ground. Felt arbitrary.
Regginator
Member
From the ones I've played:
1. Disco Elysium
2. Pillars of Eternity
3. Shadowrun: Dragonfall - DC
4. Star Wars KotOR II The Sith Lords
5. Dragon Age: Origins
A lot of heavy hitters I either haven't played yet (BG3, VtM Bloodlines, Divinity: OS) or have played some of it but couldn't really vibe with it (BG1, Fallout 1, Planescape Torment).
I'm eyeing a good sale on PoE 2 and afterwards I want to try out Wasteland 2 and/or 3.
1. Disco Elysium
2. Pillars of Eternity
3. Shadowrun: Dragonfall - DC
4. Star Wars KotOR II The Sith Lords
5. Dragon Age: Origins
A lot of heavy hitters I either haven't played yet (BG3, VtM Bloodlines, Divinity: OS) or have played some of it but couldn't really vibe with it (BG1, Fallout 1, Planescape Torment).
I'm eyeing a good sale on PoE 2 and afterwards I want to try out Wasteland 2 and/or 3.
Mister Wolf
Gold Member
It's excellent. I like the combat more than BG3. It also is much deeper in regards to character building. I play it on PC with a controller just like BG3. It is dense like you say though. Was overwhelming for me too when I first started. If you have any questions feel free to ask.
This was my main resource for info.
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PectacularOz
Member
Agreed. POE2 over all of these personally.
Herbspiceguy
Member
Fallout 2 was the first CRPG I got into. It was one of the most mind-blowing gaming experiences for me and I still consider it one of the greatest games. I played the first installment, which I feel is a more cohevise and immersive experience than the sequel, many years later, as at the time I'd stick to the new Black Isle and BioWare releases,
Mozzarella
Member
By reading the spell and class description you can quickly understand that Breach and Secret Word will solve most encounters, you bring up that BG3 is easy because you played in a certain way and took no damage, new flash the same applies to BG1 and BG2 where a buffed Paladin steamrolls the entire game, or any solo Ranger with a boots of speed can kite enemies to victory with x6 bonus solo xp you literally break the game and it becomes a cakewalk. As i said i like BG2 but pretending that difficulty is a factor to combat quality is hilarious especially when BG2 can be broken and easily solved with less effort.About BG2…
How will one know which builds to make? All this is privy to veterans of the game and requires multiple play through or at least an internet guide (why will you use them
As for encounter design, I think BG2 did it way better. There were regular parties of mix fighter and mages and every battle needed rethink on how to win. Spamming of buff spells is possible only if you rest every 2-3 battles, again not something I do. Am on a urgent quest and rest only when necessary
Yeah, it doesn’t have environmental interactivity, that adds im sim elements to BG3. Thats a Larian thing and if you love that, you might miss it in BG2. Though I still felt BG2 was more tactical and I failed rolls and died in battles much more often.
As for POE, I haven’t played part 2, but didn’t like part 1 combat. Didn’t felt as satisfying as infinity engine games. Difficult to put a finger on it. It has ingredients, but I didn’t get the kick by winning battles that I did in BG2.
You are free to prefer what you want, but BG3 encounter design is clearly better, in BG1 and BG2 more than half the encounters is samey filler mobs whereas in BG3 almost every encounter has a new enemy or a unique and cool gimmick.
BG2 encounter design always resort to either prebuff then autoattack or prebuff, breach, then autoattack, i could show you a comparison between to solo character in both games against a tough boss and the depth in complexity is very apparent its hard to deny.
Can you show me that? because as far as i know if you can teleport an enemy behind those boxes then the enemy can teleport back to you as we all know almost every enemy in DOS2 has one kind of a teleport spell.
Also you can't just dismiss my entire post and come with one example to tell me gotcha, again if you can show me this tactic in a clip i would appreciate it because it sounds cool on paper until you realize enemies can easily escape it.
Do you know how many ways you can infiltrate the goblin camp? how many ways you can enter and exist from it? how many ways you can do to deal with the quests there? its insane, the core immersive-sim mechanics, in DOS2 you also have something like that but its mainly in Fort Joy later into the game it gets more restrictive, how many small holes you can fit into by using spells and then you explore whats inside the room, how you can bend physics to jump to unreachable places, the amount of ways you get during exploration, its far bigger.
In act 3 i used invisibility potions and sneaking to get to Gortash room up on the tower without triggering a fight, then i fought him there, you can also sneak in the Steel Watch Foundry, you can sneak in Goblin camp via multiple routes, lets not pretend that in DOS2 there weren't any forced ambushes that trigger a fight.
???
You literally bring up quantity though, you said you can do more with environment in DOS2 than BG3 and i showed you examples of the player interacting and using the environment in the game and in its combat, but now you tell me more doesnt equal better? then why did you bring that up to begin with?
How am i wrong? i talked about every single thing you mentioned, i also praised Bless despite and lets be honest here that Bless is trash during the actual fight, because any Voidwoken that bleeds turns it back into curse so you lose a source point for something that barely last one turn. This is why Necrofire meme was a thing.
I wasn't talking about "wow fun" though, i was talking with actual material, giving you ways that you can interact with the combat and using your surroundings in the environment to add more depth to it. Again you are free to find anything you prefer more fun, that is not my point, shoving something or using jump or dipping a surface are all ways you get to use the environment to your advantage, that was the main point we were talking about.
Yeah i was talking about sneaking not using invisible spells which you can use in BG3 anyway, sneaking costs too much and doesn't give good benefits, backstab is only viable with one single weapon type.
So in BG3 you get to sneak and/or use invisibility and you get to do that with bows as well not just daggers, sounds like an upgrade to me.
Verticality gives you advantage on your attack rolls and the one down takes disadvantage so more likely and less likely to land the hit, its a difference of systems, in DOS2 its flat out damage increase/decease
Are you saying that doing a stealth playstyle is better in DOS2?
By the way i haven't touched on items yet, itemization is huge improvement from DOS2, like for example you have a red cape you can get early in the game from a DURGE quest which can make you go invisible if you successfully kill an enemy during combat, this can be very tactical and you can use it to reposition yourself to strike from an advantage in the next turn. There is no such thing like that in DOS2, there you get Diablo loot with level lock, so if you are a level lower you can't wear it, this creates two problems one is you will need to steal blindly from everything that moves to get money to keep your party at check with the level and the loot each time since stats matter more than the actual item, and two is that it reduces item set-up and synergy to basic state check and removes any immersive-sim element from them, a difference where a low tier item can have important significance in a specific item build-up just for the synergy and benefit it can provide to the whole build instead of just tossing it away the moment you level up higher and get a new item with bigger number.
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