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[Stereogatari]

Salafi Wahhabi ideology originated from Saudi Arabia in the 18th century. The Turks ( the last legit Caliphate ) stamped this extremist stuff out and dismantled the first Saudi State, but the Saudis came back and eventually gain Independence in 20th century.

20th Century Oil Boom. The Saudis export this ideology across the World to different Muslim countries and minority Muslim communities in non-Muslim countries.

Muslims who go to these Saudi funded mosques turn out to become more extremist than their ancestors and those who go to the mosques of their ethnic group's traditional light flavour of Islam. Things like covering up female hair become more popular in a lot of Muslim majority countries and Muslim minority communities elsewhere, where it never used to be as big of a deal, even gaining foot among those who don't attend the Saudi mosques as subtle influences via the Saudi ideology take root.

Some of these Saudi mosque goers end up becoming brainwashed to such an extent that they end up in Al-Qaeda, or ISIS, and killing innocent citizens etc.

The West have been fighting a War on Islamist Terror since 2001, but are allies with Saudi Arabia throughout all of this.

So isn't any military action against ISIS or w/e a waste of time until we kill the root? Saudi Arabia and Wahabism.

All this talk about integration of Muslims in Europe is all nonsense as well. The problem isn't integration of Muslims ( who practice their ancestors' light version of Islam imbued with their ethnic group's cultural heritage ). It's Wahhabi ideology which is a born-again Islamist Fundamentalist brainwashing session, that is inherently anti-integration with and aggressive towards infidels.

So shit ain't going to change anytime soon as long as we're friends with our enemies.

 

[ElTorro]

One of the main reasons why we need to get rid of oil as an energy source. It's not just about climate change.

 

[BocoDragon]

Oil tho.

 

[SodiumBenzoate]

This book explains the recent historical context of what you are talking about. You're pretty much exactly right and it's crazy more people aren't aware of this.

 

[RumblingRosco]

One of the main reasons why we need to get rid of oil as an energy source. It's not just about climate change.

Absolutely true. We need to spend more money and train more scientists to develop alternative energy sources, not just so the US can stop relying on foreign oil, but so that countries across the globe can have access to inexpensive alternative energy as well.

 

[Real Hero]

yep, destroying ISIS would just be a pause, nothing would be stopped

 

[James Scott]

Keep your friends close and your enemies closer

Spoiler

if they have oil

One of the main reasons why we need to get rid of oil as an energy source. It's not just about climate change.

yep, surprised we don't have an alternative by now.

 

[theignoramus]

They helped turn Pakistan into the crazy state it was under Zia Al Huq and most of the Sunni terrorists groups operating around the world espouse a strand of Islamic beliefs that originated in that country.
They sent in troops to beat and torture Shia protesters in Bahrain during the Arab Spring.
Theyre probably the most harmful entity in the Muslim world since the British colonials.

 

[ElTorro]

yep, surprised we don't have an alternative by now.

The latest episode of Dan Carlin's Common Sense podcast talks about using military project paradigms such as that of the Manhattan project to boost the development time of such things as alternative energy sources. That episode is based on this Bill Gates interview where he discusses the same idea:

We Need an Energy Miracle - http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/11/we-need-an-energy-miracle/407881/

In his offices overlooking Lake Washington, just east of Seattle, Bill Gates grabbed a legal pad recently and began covering it in his left-handed scrawl. He scribbled arrows by each margin of the pad, both pointing inward. The arrow near the left margin, he said, represented how governments worldwide could stimulate ingenuity to combat climate change by dramatically increasing spending on research and development. “The push is the R&D,” he said, before indicating the arrow on the right. “The pull is the carbon tax.” Between the arrows he sketched boxes to represent areas, such as deployment of new technology, where, he argued, private investors should foot the bill. He has pledged to commit $2 billion himself.

Gates is on a solo global lobbying campaign to press his species to accomplish something on a scale it has never attempted before. He wants human beings to invent their way out of the coming collision with planetary climate change, accelerating a transition to new forms of energy that might normally take a century or more.

 

[Buba Big Guns]

Yup, until Saudi stop exporting and funding their backwards ass ideology in muslim countries and around the world, nothing will change.

 

[antonz]

It's a devil we tolerated out of blind pursuit of Oil. At this stage of the game Saudi Arabia only provides around 10% of our Oil and I am sure we could find a way to replace their supply either through increased domestic production or deals with other suppliers.

The problem now is the Saudis probably have most of Washington in their pockets. Frankly the United States needs to declare its intention of complete neutrality when it comes to the Arab States. We should have never picked a side in what is essentially opposing sides of the same religion.

 

[leatherhat]

The Saudi-American alliance must go. America needs to invest in its own domestic energy sources to get off the oil teat.

 

[ponpo]

So shit ain't going to change anytime soon as long as we're friends with our enemies.

Ideally the West should be able to pressure Saudi Arabia as an ally.

If global dependance on oil disappeared tomorrow and Saudi Arabia could be declared an enemy, then what? Nuke Mecca?

 

[ElTorro]

It's a devil we tolerated out of blind pursuit of Oil. At this stage of the game Saudi Arabia only provides around 10% of our Oil and I am sure we could find a way to replace their supply either through increased domestic production or deals with other suppliers.

The problem is that the Saudis basically control the oil price through OPEC.

 

[ZiZ]

people always claim this, but the Saudi Arabian government has been cracking down on that stuff for years, especially after 9/11.

you can't talk about jihad in mosques, any figure that shows a hint of support for ISIS or Alqaeda is tossed in jail. Not even during the height of the Iraq war, when most of the civilians were against it, no one was allowed to talk shit about america in mosques or khutbas.

Saudi Arabia isn't really the best place for one to exercise free speech.

 

[rrvv]

Keep your friends close and your enemies closer

Spoiler

if they have oil

yep, surprised we don't have an alternative by now.

Pretty hard though. Not just Saudi but majority of the world economic is still relying on oil.

Not to mention majority of oil is been used for non energy product

 

[AAK]

I agree Saudi Arabia are one part of it, but you can't ignore the West's meddling into the ME destabilizing it helping the crazies spread their influence.

Both Saudi Arabia, and the Destabilization of the ME at the hands of the west need to stop.

 

[theignoramus]

people always claim this, but the Saudi Arabian government has been cracking down on that stuff for years, especially after 9/11.

you can't talk about jihad in mosques, any figure that shows a hint of support for ISIS or Alqaeda is tossed in jail. Not even during the height of the Iraq war, when most of the civilians were against it, no one was allowed to talk shit about america in mosques or khutbas.

Saudi Arabia isn't really the best place for one to exercise free speech.

And yet the US government (Hilary Clinton when she was SecState is my most recent recollection) still complains that Saudi Arabia is a huge source of revenue for Islamic terror groups because of private donors in that country.

 

[Minus_Me]

I always thought this was a great book that more people should read.

Puts SA's actions into perspective.

 

[Condom]

people always claim this, but the Saudi Arabian government has been cracking down on that stuff for years, especially after 9/11.

you can't talk about jihad in mosques, any figure that shows a hint of support for ISIS or Alqaeda is tossed in jail. Not even during the height of the Iraq war, when most of the civilians were against it, no one was allowed to talk shit about america in mosques or khutbas.

Saudi Arabia isn't really the best place for one to exercise free speech.

Right but SA has a lot of BS going on under the radar, they keep their country as safe as possible but let their powerful citizens freely infect moderate Muslim countries with Salafists and the like

 

[Chittagong]

people always claim this, but the Saudi Arabian government has been cracking down on that stuff for years, especially after 9/11.

you can't talk about jihad in mosques, any figure that shows a hint of support for ISIS or Alqaeda is tossed in jail. Not even during the height of the Iraq war, when most of the civilians were against it, no one was allowed to talk shit about america in mosques or khutbas.

Saudi Arabia isn't really the best place for one to exercise free speech.

The problem is that Saudi Arabia is the poster boy and rich backer of wahhabism that is at root of all the intolerant islam causing havoc in the world, and polar opposite of progressive islam that has created relatively more stability and wealth in the world.

Essentially the muslim world is at civil war, where one side is the wahhabism inspired zealots, and other side the progressive muslims that try to look the other way. So it doesn't help is Saudi government is trying to root out extremists, when what should be rooted out is the entire wahhabi ideology, i.e. Saudi plan of record.

Wahhabism has been accused of being "a source of global terrorism",[27][28] inspiring the ideology of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL),[29] and for causing disunity in the Muslim community by labeling Muslims who disagreed with the Wahhabi definition of monotheism as apostates[30] (takfir), thus paving the way for their bloodshed.[31][32][33] It has also been criticized for the destruction of historic mazaars, mausoleums, and other Muslim and non-Muslim buildings and artifacts.[34][35][36] The "boundaries" of what make up Wahhabism have been called "difficult to pinpoint",[37] but in contemporary usage, the terms Wahhabi and Salafi are often used interchangeably, and considered to be movements with different roots that have merged since the 1960s.[38][39][40] But Wahhabism has also been called "a particular orientation within Salafism",[41] or an ultra-conservative, Saudi brand of Salafism.[42][43]

 

[G.ZZZ]

The reason why are simple, economic development. Without oil, the west would never have grown as much. In light of this, radicalization and the killings of thousands of people is probably worth the amount of wealth and lifes lifted from poverty in all the world, i'd argue even around teh billion (well we wouldnt' have had the climate problem as well, but it's all hypotetical of course, just trying to explain what kind of "exchange" the west did here).

And yeah, the hypocrisy when talking about terrorism is striking, but the vast majority of people are extremely, extremely stupid and uninformed. So i guess, try to inform them, and then just go on. The system is far too big to be stopped anyway right now. Change will come slowly with time, but who know how many lifes will be lost at the hand of human stupidity.

 

[theignoramus]

Right but SA has a lot of BS going on under the radar, they keep their country as safe as possible but let their powerful citizens freely infect moderate Muslim countries with Salafists and the like

Or they bomb hospitals in Yemen and invade Bahrain to stamp out civil disobedience from Shia protesters. All the self righteous, chest thumping accusation for 10 years that Iran was the number one sponsor and exporter of terror in the world and the most repressive regime in the region could have been said about Saudi Arabia and actually had the virtue of being the truth.

 

[LUFTRAUSER]

Actually, it's pretty funny: America doesn't need Middle Eastern oil anymore. Europe does. So, the United States is allies with them to maintain its NATO allies and thus its global power.

Basically America needs to be allies to stay the world superpower. So if you're European and you don't like American hegemony, lobby for the dissembly of NATO.

Spoiler

which will never happen

 

[jerry1594]

What would happen on the Shia front when Sunni terrorism is neutralized I wonder

Actually, it's pretty funny: America doesn't need Middle Eastern oil anymore. Europe does. So, the United States is allies with them to maintain its NATO allies and thus its global power.

What do you mean?

 

[Ovid]

- 20+ pages of the 9/11 Commission's report are classified.

- 15 of the 19 hijackers on 9/11 were Saudi nationals.

- The US recently complete a $1 billion arms deal with Saudi Arabia.

- Saudi Arabia is flooding the market with cheap oil; hurting Russia and Iran; helping us

We're in bed with them and they don't even like us.

 

[Jerm411]

Would really like to see those 28 redacted pages from the 9/11 Senate report that are rumored to heavily implicate SA....

 

[ElTorro]

I always thought this was a great book that more people should read.

Puts SA's actions into perspective.

Had heard about this book a few times, but had only read about that incident on Wikipedia. Just downloaded it on my Kindle.

 

[zero_suit]

I always thought this was a great book that more people should read.

Puts SA's actions into perspective.

Thanks for the recommendation.

 

[SodiumBenzoate]

This book explains the recent historical context of what you are talking about. You're pretty much exactly right and it's crazy more people aren't aware of this.

I always thought this was a great book that more people should read.

Puts SA's actions into perspective.

My thunder has been stolen
That being said I'm glad that I'm not the only one who had read / heard of this book. It's very, very much under the radar.

 

[LUFTRAUSER]

What would happen on the Shia front when Sunni terrorism is neutralized I wonder

What do you mean?

What I mean is that the United States is not allies with Saudi Arabia for America's direct benefit. America does not really need Middle Eastern oil any more because America and Canada produces so much. America's NATO allies however still require access. And NATO is one of the main ways America maintains its global power; how else would we be able to justify keeping such a huge military presence in Europe?

So we stay allies. America needs NATO and the other NATO countries need America.

 

[Ovid]

Had heard about this book a few times, but had only read about that incident on Wikipedia. Just downloaded it on my Kindle.

Why is the Kindle eBook more than the paperback?

That really annoys me.

What I mean is that the United States is not allies with Saudi Arabia for America's direct benefit.

The ideals of America don't even coincide with those of the House of Saud.

So hypocrital.

 

[Principate]

- 20+ pages of the 9/11 Commission's report are classified.

- 15 of the 19 hijackers on 9/11 were Saudi nationals.

- The US recently complete a $1 billion arms deal with Saudi Arabia.

- Saudi Arabia is flooding the market with cheap oil; hurting Russia and Iran; helping us

We're in bed with them and they don't even like us.

Nah the US is flooding the mrket with cheap oil, you can't go blameing random countries for the current sitaution, oil price has dropped, because all major players are proucing more oil than there is in demand, and the US plays a major part in this like any other player. You can't point figures at other countries not reducing production when the US goes full steam ahead that's just being dishonest.

 

[Minus_Me]

My thunder has been stolen
That being said I'm glad that I'm not the only one who had read / heard of this book. It's very, very much under the radar.

Totally didn't see your post, sorry about that!

I'm glad someone else brought it up because it is a perfect primer for understanding the situation Saudi Arabia now finds itself in.

I remember back when I was in University, I was the only person in a class of 100+ that had even heard about the event in question, completely blew my mind.

 

[thefro]

Agree completely, the Wahhabi/Salafi movement and the billions the Saudis spend on promoting it throughout the Middle East are a massive part of the terrorist/extremist problem. Then there's all the human rights issues on top of that.

There needs to be a similar effort to promote moderate Islam and Saudi Arabia should discourage people from promoting and funding the Wahhabi/Salafi sects.

 

[danm999]

Yeah US foreign policy WRT Saudi Arabia means the United States and other Western nations are effectively funding both sides of the war on terror.

 

[foxtrot3d]

I always thought this was a great book that more people should read.

Puts SA's actions into perspective.

Will check this out but what do people expect the US to do? SA may fund terrorist cells to advance their own foreign policy but what is the alternative? It's the same problem with Pakistan, they are shitty "allies" but the alternative is to allow the extremists to take over which would be even worse.

 

[Ovid]

Nah the US is flooding the mrket with cheap oil, you can't go blameing random countries for the current sitaution, oil price has dropped, because all major players are proucing more oil than there is in demand, and the US plays a major part in this like any other player. You can't point figures at other countries not reducing production when the US goes full steam ahead that's just being dishonest.

While true, a lot of the OPEC nations have increased production, Saudi Arabia is by far the biggest player in the cartel. They (Saudi Arabia) have been asked to scale back production but those calls have fallen on deaf ears.


My point is oil is the driving force in our relationship.

 

[LUFTRAUSER]

The ideals of America don't even coincide with those of the House of Saud.

So hypocrital.

It's not about ideals. It's about power.

 

[Laughing Banana]

The Kingdom of Arabia's ruling family is quite probably one of the most corrupt ruling families in the world :/

 

[Bel Marduk]

Pretty much.

Wanna fight ISIS?

Let Saudi Arabia and Israel do it.

Its their backyard.

Not like the US doesn't give them enough aid to take care of it. (Israel anyway.)

 

[Ovid]

What does Israel think of Saudi Arabia?

 

[PdotMichael]

Saudi Arabia needs oil export more than we need them, we were already used to >$100 oil prices. In fact the American oil industry would have a field day, when all the fracking and pipeline projects are profitable again.

 

[Bel Marduk]

What does Israel think of Saudi Arabia?

Oh they absolutely hate each other.

That's why NATO should step aside and force reconciliation.

 

[jerry1594]

Oh they absolutely hate each other.

That's why NATO should step aside and force reconciliation.

I was under the impression they are covert allies against Iran.

 

[params7]

Euro nations at least should seek to ban the building of Saudi funded Mosques and the extremist ideologies they export in those centers.

Not much else is going to change in US-Saud relations until the oil dries up. Good news is, it shouldn't take longer than 50 years from now.

 

[TheRealTalker]

You need reform in SA.... changes are happening in very small slow amounts due to pressure (heck in the last few weeks due to fear they introduced two new reform laws) but to drastically change it they need to have more diplomatic pressure.

The country is trying to enter a new economic growth and diversification with multiple mega projects being conducted and heavy financing in renewable energy more so then the US and other nations

In order for them to rapidly reform they need economic pressure for those future business deals..... Want that manufacturing plant in KAEC? Well we will bug you to change this..... Want a cooperation deal with Aramco and blah energy for new solar cell R&D (since SA is heavily investing in solar technology) well put pressure in this problem too.... clean up this.... free that person, etc...


Look online and we can see super heavy pressure is already on the Sauds and on King Salman by other princes some of which want to overthrow the King with someone else who "apparently" wants political reform. Things should be dealt in a smart manner. We also need to address our own countries and their corrupt foreign policies...


The country wants to diversify itself and in the longeterm want foreign investment... Future deals need to have strategic business will morales and values.... The stupid thing to do is to blame one country for every problem in the world and then bomb them when we had the chance of diplomacy particularly when diplomacy is actually opening up more then ever and SA reserves are being pulled out of Western countries that the Saudis in the past used to quite down criticism.


Later force diplomacy for two rivals to cooperate with one another and so on and so fourth. They have a large youth base.... use that as well. The way to solve these problems is not trying to jump in with no research and blind rage which leads to ignorant armed conflicts that cause even more future instability and chaos.



In the last few weeks they said they want to have discussions and invite right groups... they say they want to improve their future image well sure we can help but we need to make sure they adhere to it and enforce it.

 

[FlyingSaucer]

Euro nations at least should seek to ban the building of Saudi funded Mosques and the extremist ideologies they export in those centers.

They won't. In France, most politicians are either bought by SA, or by Quatar. They will never speak a word against their masters. And they wil bomb for them any ennemy they are designated... Assad, for example. We don't fight Assad because he is not nice.

 

[TheRealTalker]

If you look at the headlines for the past few weeks their is a small hole opening for us to push in.... there is openings and pressure

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...nge-in-the-face-of-rumours-of-coup-plots.html

https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/11/15/saudi-arabia-steps-toward-migrant-workers-rights

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...bin-salman-could-bring-down-the-a6706801.html

what we need to do as an international community is push for hard-line diplomacy.... They say the want to improve their image well we make them try harder in doing so.... Threaten sanctions for deals if necessary but also tangle rewards if they comply.


They are moving in an economic transition, a workforce transistion, and this is the best time to have a reformulation transition to go with it

 

[Barajas_201]

Why doesn't the West simply occupy SA like they did with Iraq but with an actual legit reason (root of terrorism) and take control of all the oil like in Iraq? It's not like the Saudi monarchy use it to benefit their people, since they waste it on super expensive cars, wild exotic animals, etc. And I realize that the elites aren't all the people in SA but maybe the West can break up the elites and redistribute the wealth to everybody else while also getting a deal on oil. My question is, why is SA special in comparison to Iraq? Military wise, the Saudis spend a lot but they're still no match for the West. Now obviously I don't want a war and more death and destruction and I know the real solution is to switch to renewable clean energy, it's just that the choice to occupy Iraq instead of SA by the West is kinda strange, why not go for the bigger fish?