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[Phantast2k]

Serbian Nationalist Train Halts at Border With Kosovo - The New York Times

BELGRADE, Serbia — A train decorated with Serbian nationalist slogans and images departed on Saturday from Belgrade, Serbia's capital, and headed for northern Kosovo, but it halted at the border in a stunt that set off a dramatic escalation of tensions between the former wartime foes.

Officials in Kosovo had protested that the train's planned route into Kosovo was a violation of their country's sovereignty and promised not to let it in.

Prime Minister Aleksandar Vucic of Serbia ordered the train stopped in Raska, Serbia, as it approached the border with Kosovo, a former Serbian province, claiming that ethnic Albanians in Kosovo had tried to mine the railway.

The train was painted with Serbian flags, religious Christian Orthodox scenes and the words ”Kosovo is Serbian" in 20 languages.

(...)

At a news conference in Belgrade on Saturday, Mr. Vucic accused Kosovo of plans to arrest the train's driver and passengers.

”This was an ambition to provoke a conflict, to start a wider conflict in this territory that we consider as ours," he said. ”It was my decision to stop the train in Raska to preserve the freedom and lives of our people, to prevent a wider conflict and show that we want peace."

”We sent a train, not a tank," he added.

President Hashim Thaci of Kosovo wrote on his Facebook page on Saturday that his country respected the free movement of people and goods but that a train covered in nationalist banners that violated Kosovo's Constitution and laws was ”completely unacceptable."

The train was to be the first to travel from Belgrade to Mitrovica, in northern Kosovo, since the 1998-99 Kosovo war. The train later turned back to Belgrade.

Additional info:

• Kosovo gained independence from Serbia in 2008 after the Kosovo War
• Mitrovica, the city the train was supposed to go to, is one of Serbian enclaves in Kosovo (at least the northern part of the city)
• More pics from inside the train:
  
  
  
  
  
• The Train is Russian-made
• Russia just gifted Serbia six MiG-29 fighter jets, 30 T-72 tanks and 30 combat vehicles from its reserves
• Which, even though some of it must be upgraded, puts the Kosovo Security Force to shame
• There are still 4600 multinational KFOR troops in the country
• A few months back, Russia has been accused of plotting a coup in Montenegro, another country which gained independence from Serbia and which is set to join NATO: Finger Pointed at Russians in Alleged Coup Plot in Montenegro - The New York Times. Some of those arrested in the process have been fighting in Donbas, Ukraine
• Today (January 15) now this: Serbia says Kosovo wants war as neighbors row over Serb nationalist train | Reuters
• January 16: Serbia wants to annex part of Kosovo using 'Crimea model': president | Reuters

So the question is: Is there another Balkan War in the making? And if so, is Russia fueling it?

 

[Xando]

Was reading up on this earlier.

So the question is: Is there another Balkan War in the making?

Seems like it going that way. Putin actively supporting it makes it even more dangerous

 

[pa22word]

The way the Kosovo split was handled always seemed like it had a serious "eh this didn't work at all and there's going to be a war over it in a few decades but at least I'll be out of office when it does" sort of vibe going on over it.

Not at all surprised Russia is using it to fuel more chaos. Easy target and close by to watch the fire.

 

[Polari]

Kosovo gained independence from Serbia in 2008 after the Kosovo War

Well, kind of. It's only recognised by 110 countries, and countries like China, Russia, Spain, Brazil, Ukraine, Greece, Mexico aren't among them.

 

[Phantast2k]

Was reading up on this earlier.

Seems like it going that way. Putin actively supporting it makes it even more dangerous

Agreed. Sure seems that way.
I hope for some input by Balkanese gaf to see how they feel about it.

The way the Kosovo split was handled always seemed like it had a serious "eh this didn't work at all and there's going to be a war over it in a few decades but at least I'll be out of office when it does" sort of vibe going on over it.

Not at all surprised Russia is using it to fuel more chaos. Easy target and close by to watch the fire.

I mean, Bosnia Herzegovina is way more fractured, but worked out fairly well so far.

Well, kind of. It's only recognised by 110 countries, and countries like China, Russia, Spain, Brazil, Ukraine, Greece, Mexico aren't among them.

Okay.
I bet Ukraine didn't do it back in 2008 because Russia threatened to cut their gas supplies (again).

 

[PillarEN]

Aw man I don't like to see this kind of stuff, particularly in places where ethnic tensions are still high. Fueling these tensions and raising the emotion of any side is dangerous. The breeding of hate and otherization/demonization.

 

[Boozeroony]

I was in Kosovo last year. There is sure tension between the Albanese and the Serbs. When visiting a Serbian monestary in Albanese territory I had to pass multiple KFOR checkpoints. Few years back a granade was thrown there.

Talking to Albanese there showed the deep hatred towards Serbs and vice versa.

 

[Ozorov]

There's a video circulating with the supposed albanian terrorists that set bombs on the rail trail. How legit the video is I don't know.

 

[Frankfurter]

One could think that the prospect of ultimately joining the European Union and getting a huge boost to your economy, would stop this kind of behavior. But for that to work, you'd need kind of rational political actors, I guess :/

 

[Kill Your Masters]

I mean, Bosnia Herzegovina is way more fractured, but worked out fairly well so far.

It only looks like that on paper unfortunately. Political tensions are high, the bosnian serbs do not accept Bosnia as their country or as a country at all, the economy is in the shit (the country's currency value is tied to the Euro for example), and you have a Greece like scenario with too many government workers and every layer of society having big corruption issues.

There is a political stalemate on questions like NATO/EU integrations for at least a decade with serbs favoring stronger russian ties and croats/bosniaks (bosnian muslims) favoring NATO/EU. (while bosniaks also are favoring stronger Turkish relations) So the country is not moving in any direction. It's a power play between russia and the west, sprinkled with some Turkish involvement.

Not nearly as bad as Kosovo though. But yeah, one bigger incident could unleash a terrible chain of events across all of the Balkan states except Croatia and Slovenia.

 

[Phantast2k]

So now this: Serbia wants to annex part of Kosovo using 'Crimea model': president | Reuters

(...)

Kosovo's President Hashim Thaci said the train was aimed at "provoking" Kosovars in order to create a pretext for Serbia to intervene militarily and annex northern areas of Kosovo, home to some 50,000 ethnic Serbs who refuse to accept the province's independence and want to be governed again by Belgrade.

"Serbia’s intention is to use this train, which was donated by Russia, first to help carve away the northern part of Kosovo and then ... attach it to Serbia. It is the Crimea model," Thaci said in an interview.

(...)

Thanks for your impressions, Hellraizer & Boozeroony.

There's a video circulating with the supposed albanian terrorists that set bombs on the rail trail. How legit the video is I don't know.

Sounds like bs...
Where did you find it?

 

[SecretMoblin]

Things had been moving in a positive direction, too, with talk of devolved powers and the Kosovar Serbs taking their parliament seats.

The last thing that region needs is more war. A major difference between now and the 90s is that Albania is now a full NATO member, which could complicate things substantially.

 

[Kabouter]

Not surprising that Serbia is manufacturing a casus belli, Serbian guy I know was ecstatic when Trump was elected precisely for irredentist reasons. He was completely certain they'd retake at least some portion of Kosovo, if not all of it.

 

[d9b]

Last Balkan wars didn't end well for Serbia, it certainly looks like they didn't learn their lesson. Also, their politicians in their impotence to fix economy and raise living standards of ordinary citizens of Serbia, always hide behind ultra nationalism and bravado. Crazy stuff.

 

[Dalibor68]

I think ultimately nothing will happen because Serbia has too much to lose right now.

So now this: Serbia wants to annex part of Kosovo using 'Crimea model': president | Reuters

That is purposefully phrased in a way to make it sound as if the serbian president had said this.

 

[TheRealTalker]

sigh Serbia

you'd think some people would cool down after a period of time but nope

 

[Greddleok]

Wow, the inside of that train is fucking creepy. Who wants to travel in a motorised church? Mentalists, that's who.

 

[d9b]

Wow, the inside of that train is fucking creepy. Who wants to travel in a motorised church? Mentalists, that's who.

Thomas The God's Engine is coming! Choo choo!!!

 

[RocknRola]

Well, kind of. It's only recognised by 110 countries, and countries like China, Russia, Spain, Brazil, Ukraine, Greece, Mexico aren't among them.

To be fair, in the case of Spain I think it's mostly do with possible repercussions for them (Catalonia in particular). Same reason Spain has said multiple times they wouldn't allow Scotland to enter the EU on it's own when/if it does become independent.

 

[SecretMoblin]

To be fair, in the case of Spain I think it's mostly do with possible repercussions for them (Catalonia in particular). Same reason Spain has said multiple times they wouldn't allow Scotland to enter the EU on it's own when/if it does become independent.

Yeah, this is the case with a lot of countries who haven't recognized Kosovo; Greece and Macedonia, Armenia/Azerbaijan and Nagorno-Karabakh, Georgia and Abkhazia/South Ossetia, Moldova and Transnistria, etc.

They fear that it would legitimize breakaway/separatist/nationalist sentiments within and around their own borders, and/or they feel recognition of Kosovo and not of other declared states was unfair. It's a very different situation from the Montenegrin independence process.

Still, it looked like Serbia's political class was inching towards a resolution over the last several years and with the continued talk about Serbia's role w/r/t NATO and the EU it's clear Russia wanted to step in.

 

[RocknRola]

Yeah, this is the case with a lot of countries who haven't recognized Kosovo; Greece and Macedonia, Armenia/Azerbaijan and Nagorno-Karabakh, Georgia and Abkhazia/South Ossetia, Moldova and Transnistria, etc.

They fear that it would legitimize breakaway/separatist/nationalist sentiments within and around their own borders, and/or they feel recognition of Kosovo and not of other declared states was unfair. It's a very different situation from the Montenegrin independence process.

Still, it looked like Serbia's political class was inching towards a resolution over the last several years and with the continued talk about Serbia's role w/r/t NATO and the EU it's clear Russia wanted to step in.

Yeah, politics are "funky" like that sometimes. Many times it's not really any sort of direct issue against the new country/state itself, just what sort of effect said country/state may cause on their own homeland.

 

[Ryuuroden]

Well, kind of. It's only recognised by 110 countries, and countries like China, Russia, Spain, Brazil, Ukraine, Greece, Mexico aren't among them.

All these countries have their own separatist problems, not surprising.

 

[daemonkiller92]

I'm still amazed by the fact they went ahead with sending the train with such a design to a politically charged area, especially with all the shit happening recently around here. Everyone knew this would happen, especially after the shit with Haradinay. But nope, full speed ahead into oblivion.

Doubt it will come to war, but shit will hit the fan and there will be repercussions.

 

[Business]

All these countries have their own separatist problems, not surprising.

Brazil, Greece and Mexico?

 

[Ryuuroden]

Brazil, Greece and Mexico?

Ezln in Chiapas southern Mexico, the southern Brazil seperatist movement (similar to the Spanish movement), and Greek Albanians and Albanian Greeks, also Greek cyprus

 

[Barajas_201]

Ezln in Chiapas southern Mexico, the southern Brazil se0aratist movement (similar to the Spanish movement), and Greek Albanians and Albanian Greeks, also Greek cyprus

False, EZLN isn't a separatist movement, they are the equivalent of the Black Panthers in the US. They advocate for the rights of minorities and social justice (socialism). If you wanna see a separatist movement in Mexico look at the northern states and their snobbish culture.

 

[Kill Your Masters]

I'm still amazed by the fact they went ahead with sending the train with such a design to a politically charged area, especially with all the shit happening recently around here. Everyone knew this would happen, especially after the shit with Haradinay. But nope, full speed ahead into oblivion.

Doubt it will come to war, but shit will hit the fan and there will be repercussions.

Unfortunately it's a tactic by the Serbian government for years for Kosovo. Provoke a reaction and feed the narrative of "we are under attack/we have to defend ourselves now". (And it will get you votes even though it doesn't do much in the end other than getting every side tense). Case in point, the quote by the serbian PM in the OP about preventing a conflict.

Still, it looked like Serbia's political class was inching towards a resolution over the last several years and with the continued talk about Serbia's role w/r/t NATO and the EU it's clear Russia wanted to step in.

Serbia plays a weird political game. They are pro Russia but also going towards more EU/NATO integrations. They will have to pick a side eventually. I doubt it will be EU/NATO.

Things had been moving in a positive direction, too, with talk of devolved powers and the Kosovar Serbs taking their parliament seats.

The last thing that region needs is more war. A major difference between now and the 90s is that Albania is now a full NATO member, which could complicate things substantially.

Another major difference is the lack of firepower. Serbia pretty much inherited most of the Yugoslavian military equipment (It was a fucking lot) in the 90s, and thats gone now. Nobody from the blakans wants war, it's costly, and nobody could afford it even if they want to wage it from an idelological standpoint.

 

[SuperBanana]

These were plastered all over some areas of Serbia. Nationalist are going to feel like they can be much more aggressive now towards Kosovo.

 

[Lime]

The militant nationalism in Serbia has me really scared.

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

I pulled a serbian policewoman in Croatia last year, doing my bit for baltic relations.

 

[petran79]

Ezln in Chiapas southern Mexico, the southern Brazil seperatist movement (similar to the Spanish movement), and Greek Albanians and Albanian Greeks, also Greek cyprus

Greece has also Greeks who speak slavic dialect in northwestern part of Greek Macedonia. Some consider themselves slavic Macedonians, though a minority.
In Thrace there are also the Greek speaking Muslims, with which Turkey often courts. They provided them with free satellite dishes to receive Turkish channels.

Every Balkan country has similar issues. The Lausanne Treaty in 1923 with the population exchange set a precedent worldwide, treating people as pure numbers.
Similar thing happened between Germany and Poland after WWII, regarding Germans living in Poland.

 

[Iksenpets]

I pulled a serbian policewoman in Croatia last year, doing my bit for baltic relations.

Baltic/Balkan confusion is only going to get worse when Trump manages to spur on wars in both regions simultaneously.

 

[beato_angelico]

So the question is: Is there another Balkan War in the making? And if so, is Russia fueling it?

no unless serbia wants to cut all ties to the EU. which may be possibile in the near future if Trump goes all-in and dismantles NATO, and the EU disintegrates (with France/Holland/Italy leaving). Not impossible but highly improbable right now so stop freaking out.

 

[norinrad]

Serbia will take Kosovo when the time comes, we will all sit back and watch. Europe won't do shit besides our usual sanctions and you cannot join the EU rhetoric. In return Serbia will probably let the refugees through once Putin gives Erdogan the go ahead to open the gates. Viktor Oban will join in for lolz.

Let's face it, Vladimir has Europe exactly where he wants it. Trump isn't going to help either, because you got to pay to play.

 

[Greddleok]

Serbia will take Kosovo when the time comes, we will all sit back and watch. Europe won't do shit besides our usual sanctions and you cannot join the EU rhetoric. In return Serbia will probably let the refugees through once Putin gives Erdogan the go ahead to open the gates. Viktor Oban will join in for lolz.

Let's face it, Vladimir has Europe exactly where he wants it. Trump isn't going to help either, because you got to pay to play.

Shhhh you're making Brexit sound like a good idea.

 

[Guy.brush]

• The Train is Russian-madehttp://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38625872
• Russia just gifted Serbia six MiG-29 fighter jets, 30 T-72 tanks and 30 combat vehicles from its reserves

So the question is: Is there another Balkan War in the making? And if so, is Russia fueling it?

Seems pretty obvious who is fueling the fire. sigh. Can this man run out of money already please?

 

[SomedayTheFire]

serbia being serbia again?

 

[Chuck the Bean]

These were plastered all over some areas of Serbia. Nationalist are going to feel like they can be much more aggressive now towards Kosovo.

What does it say?

 

[Face it Tiger..]

I know that Kosovo has wanted to become a NATO member, they should hasten that process. :/

 

[jstripes]

serbia being serbia again?

It's like the 19th century never ended in the Balkans.

 

[d9b]

Putin using Serbia to play his little war games in Europe. Again.

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

Baltic/Balkan confusion is only going to get worse when Trump manages to spur on wars in both regions simultaneously.

Well spotted, that was a school boy error on my behalf.

 

[daemonkiller92]

What does it say?

Litteral translation: "The Serbs have supported!"

It's gonna be interesting to see who's gonna come out top in April. I freaking hate the whole voting process around here, though it's not as bad as in the US.

 

[d9b]

Things are escalating quickly, maybe EU bureaucrats in Brussels should pull their heads out of the sand and act:

"If need be, my sons and I will take part in war" - Tomislav Nikolic (current Serbian President)

 

[Ghostmaster]

Things are escalating quickly, maybe EU bureaucrats in Brussels should pull their heads out of the sand and act:

"If need be, my sons and I will take part in war" - Tomislav Nikolic (current Serbian President)

Nah, presidential elections are in 3 months and the current president is so bad, that the prime minister who is the head of the country and the ruling party, still doesn't want to officially support his reelection campaign. Nationalist posturing is all that he has got left

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if the Prime Minister runs for president himself.

As for the train, make no mistake both Taci and Vucic knew about it and everything that was going to happen around it. It's a great way to distract from the whole Haradinay kerfuffle, because neither the Kosovo authorities nor the Serbian authorities want that dude back.

 

[spwolf]

I'm still amazed by the fact they went ahead with sending the train with such a design to a politically charged area, especially with all the shit happening recently around here. Everyone knew this would happen, especially after the shit with Haradinay. But nope, full speed ahead into oblivion.

Doubt it will come to war, but shit will hit the fan and there will be repercussions.

elections are in 3 months in Serbia, this is why they sent the train so it would not be allowed through. Ruling party is filled with same people who were there during Bosnian/Croatian and Kosovo wars. Hence same type of politics.

I see no reason why would Kosovo government plant bombs though, thats just hillarious tv politics for inside serbia.

 

[daemonkiller92]

Things are escalating quickly, maybe EU bureaucrats in Brussels should pull their heads out of the sand and act:

"If need be, my sons and I will take part in war" - Tomislav Nikolic (current Serbian President)

Of course he said that, and it probably won't be the last thing he, or other local politicians, say that will rile people up. It's the election season here, and more and more insanity and stupidity will float up to the surface, especially social media.

But, make no mistake, there probably won't be a war around here, for quite a while. The tensions will remain high, with every side poking and provoking, but being afraid to pull the trigger.

elections are in 3 months in Serbia, this is why they sent the train so it would not be allowed through. Ruling party is filled with same people who were there during Bosnian/Croatian and Kosovo wars. Hence same type of politics.

I see no reason why would Kosovo government plant bombs though, thats just hillarious tv politics for inside serbia.

Oh, I know that very well. But that doesn't mean I'm not amazed at the sheer balls on display here. Both at setting this up and thinking that nobody would realise what's going on.

 

[amar212]

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if the Prime Minister runs for president himself.

Of course he will. And Dacic will then run for Prime Minister. And then they will just act as Putin and Medvedev did for last decade. Changing each other every cycle.

Smart!

 

[d9b]

Of course he said that, and it probably won't be the last thing he, or other local politicians, say that will rile people up. It's the election season here, and more and more insanity and stupidity will float up to the surface, especially social media.

But, make no mistake, there probably won't be a war around here, for quite a while. The tensions will remain high, with every side poking and provoking, but being afraid to pull the trigger.

I don't know, looks like Putin is extremely popular in Serbia. And if "The Big Boss Vladimir" say 'pull the trigger' what then...?

 

[Business]

Ezln in Chiapas southern Mexico, the southern Brazil seperatist movement (similar to the Spanish movement), and Greek Albanians and Albanian Greeks, also Greek cyprus

That's not true, Greece doesn't have any significant ethnic majority in any region seeking independence from the state. The reason why Greece doesn't support Kosovo has to do more with how the Balkan borders and population exchanges were defined in Lausane and a closer relationship with Serbia with whom it shares religion as opposed to Albania's Muslim majority. About Cyprus, Cyprus it's not Greece plus I don't see how the situation there it's comparable either.