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Should democracy exist in the Middle East?
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Pedigree Chum
Banned
The US should mind their own fucking business.
FortNinety
Member
Pedigree Chum said:
My thoughts exactly. America should feel stupid for pushing its own form of government onto other countries when we can even get the kinks out of ours.
A form of gov't should exist in the ME that gives equals rights to all the particular respective countries ethnic groups, regardless of religious orientation. Hell I want that gov't in THIS country.
What that particular form of gov't is.... well... who the hell knows...
What that particular form of gov't is.... well... who the hell knows...
fortified_concept
Banned
Pedigree Chum said:
.
Agent Icebeezy
Welcome beautful toddler, Madison Elizabeth, to the horde!
IAWTPPedigree Chum said:
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
Fatghost28 said:
What does that even mean?
FortNinety
Member
bob_arctor said:
A McDonalds and Starbucks on every street corner.
ManDudeChild
Member
bob_arctor said:
-Christianity
-Fast Food
-TV
-fat
-Jebus.
Pedigree Chum
Banned
bob_arctor said:
It means, "Fuck the world as long as I can sleep better at night in my mansion".
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
Guileless said:
I dunno. Let's ask the average Iraqi:
"Excuse me, sir, I was just wonder--"
"ARE YOU FUCKING CRAZY? GET THE HELL OFF THE STREETS!"
Pedigree Chum said:
US's own business? This implies that the US is sovereign and can actually have it's own business to mind. If some other nation comes along and takes away US's sovereignty (for having followed your advice) then your advice serves only the purpose to eliminate what it's actually endorsing.
ConfusingJazz
Member
Guileless said:
Actually, Iran's populace used a democratic election to vote that style of government in.
Guileless
Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
:lolConfusingJazz said:
Come on people. Don't any of you understand that as citizens of Western-style democracies, we have a higher quality of life than 99% of the people who have ever lived? Caligula? Let's keep things in perspective. It's not perfect here, but there will never be a utopia. Chances are this is as good as it gets.
And if you don't like it, you're free to join a hippie commune, volunteer for the Peace Corps, become a monk, start a cult, or just be a recluse out in the wilderness, so you're covered there too. Nobody will stop you. But if you just limit your distaste to our way of life to internet message board griping, it's hard to take you seriously.
Mr. E. Yis
Banned
Guileless said:
:lol "Chances are" that many fallen kingdoms and societies said the same thing.
But we wouldn't even have our current 'better' culture if people didn't strive to make it better.
(Why I even need to say this at all speaks volumes about our culture.)
Fragamemnon
Member
The US has a obligation to promote open democratic governments throughout the world, not just in the Mideast. Open, democratic societies form the essential building blocks for enforcing proper huamn rights, environmental protections, and addressing social/economic justice issues.
That being said, tact, restraint, and diplomacy is essential. Cooperation, aid, fairness, and courage are a much more responsible way of promoting democracy than military intervention and total war.
That being said, tact, restraint, and diplomacy is essential. Cooperation, aid, fairness, and courage are a much more responsible way of promoting democracy than military intervention and total war.
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
Fragamemnon said:
In other words, all the things this current administration completely lacks. Well, except for the war part.
ManDudeChild
Member
Fragamemnon said:
Now I agree that people should live free, but that doesn't mean the U.S. needs to continue this doctrine of democracy crap. Next thing you know they'll try and use manafest destiny.
Escape Goat
Member
How about we clean up our own house before telling others how to run theirs, eh?
Guileless
Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
Most of the people that made up the "fallen kindgoms" were too busy trying to find something to eat to stop and think much about the merits of their society as compared to others in history. And most of them were illiterate and had little actual knowledge about how their society compared to others in history. And if they weren't illiterate, they had few opportunities to research this question. Thankfully we don't have those problems and are a bit more informed than they were.Mr. E. Yis said:
I believe that there are certain social advancements that are necessary for democracy to thrive. I do not believe that most of the mid-east has had these, or even wants democracy. I believe that it is up to the people to decide what government they want, even if it's not democracy, and that religion and other countries (ahem...U.S.) should not get in the way of that.
FortNinety
Member
Fatghost28 said:Exactly.
I'm glad you're so proud to be a... hell, I'd get banned if I really said how I felt.
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
:lol :lol :lolSocreges said:
Phoenix
Member
So long as we live in a global community, everyone will be minding everyone elses business. The US doesn't have a monopoly on it - get over it. I think some of the folks here need to read up on international relations, what it means, how old it is, etc.
In fact, let me help you on your way :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_politics#History
In fact, let me help you on your way :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_politics#History
Socreges said:
:lol indeed.
Of course, he's really asked two quite separate questions here, and predictably the thread has spiralled into focussing on the meddling role of the US into the region.
The Thread title says "Should democracy exist in the Middle East?"
But then he added "Should Western countries like the United States push to spread their form of government - the "democractic republic" - throughout the Middle East?"
I say "yes" to the first question, and a qualified "no" to the second.
Musashi Wins!
FLAWLESS VICTOLY!
Xenon said:
:lol :lol :lol
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Pedigree Chum said:
The American govenment is not allowed to, apparently. We start pulling interests both business and military, it'll be ugly from all angles.
because it's easier to blame our internal problems on external forces, and easier to throw massive dollars into costly foreign endeavors while cutting back social welfare programs and other federal subsidies. i can't understand the rationality of it all, but like all things it makes damn good politics.Teh Hamburglar said:
tsp_gatmog
Member
I think:
KASDF'DWFDSGGFSDGSDSDGTIUUL
KASDF'DWFDSGGFSDGSDSDGTIUUL
Scalemail Ted
Member
I say you let them decide....
oh wait.
oh wait.
You're quite late on that note. :lolManDudeChild said:
America in the 19th century: "It's our duty to expand westward, convert the Indians to Christianity, and then, it's our duty to do the same to the Caribbean, the Philippines, and other islands." *USA murders millions of indians and natives of other conquered territiories*
America in the early 21st century: "It's our duty to spread democracy to the middle east!!" *US forces invade two countries, capture & torture prisoners, and murder thousands of civilians in bombings."
GOD BLESS AMERICA.
GaimeGuy said:You're quite late on that note. :lol
America in the 19th century: "It's our duty to expand westward, convert the Indians to Christianity, and then, it's our duty to do the same to the Caribbean, the Philippines, and other islands." *USA murders millions of indians and natives of other conquered territiories*
America in the early 21st century: "It's our duty to spread democracy to the middle east!!" *US forces invade two countries, capture & torture prisoners, and murder thousands of civilians in bombings."
GOD BLESS AMERICA.
Uh, thanks Captain Obvious. I'm sure he had no idea what his use of the term Manifest Destiny referred to
First off, lets make a few things clear. First off, the British killed far more Native Americans than the 'Americans' ever did. They cut the population by over 80% before 1750, so remember this. It doesn't make their fates any less wrong, but I just can't stand Europeans (I dunno if there are any in this thread) getting on a pedastal and pointing a finger at me when most of these atrocities that America has done was either because of Europe or at the very least indirectly benefitting Europe and with their silent consent.
ok, now, lets face the facts. There's reasonable evidence to show that it's very possible that democracy is not the best solution for humanity. At the very least we can all agree on facts which point to the fact that democracy isn't best for everyone. Look at America, where the rights of the minority vote are rarely protected and often trampled (either side of the aisle... Dems did it from 92-00). There's something to be said about a benevolent monarch. The living conditions of England improved quite markedly under the rule of Elizabeth, and Russia under both St. Peter and Catherine the Great. This doesn't oppose countless pieces of evidence where people benefit from democracy, as well, but it is an interesting fact.
And as for American minding its own business: I'd say that establishing a government which will act as an arm of the US in the middle east most definitely IS acting in Americas own business.
Here's the caveat: is democracy really democracy if its forced upon someone? Is freedom really freedom if you're forced into freedom? What is better.... to choose who your Emperor is (a la France under Bonaparte) or to be fed the illusion of democracy and really have no rule at all (a la Rome and US)?
Government, by definition, cannot exist without consent of the peoples. So it is safe to assume that monarchs, at the very least, maintain their popularity. A good example of people opting for Democracy by their own will would be the Philippines circa 1988. By the same coin, you easily could say that certain countries, such as maybe Jordan or Saudi Arabia, are examples of people opting out of Democracy to allow a despot (or at the very least a monarch) into power.
ok, now, lets face the facts. There's reasonable evidence to show that it's very possible that democracy is not the best solution for humanity. At the very least we can all agree on facts which point to the fact that democracy isn't best for everyone. Look at America, where the rights of the minority vote are rarely protected and often trampled (either side of the aisle... Dems did it from 92-00). There's something to be said about a benevolent monarch. The living conditions of England improved quite markedly under the rule of Elizabeth, and Russia under both St. Peter and Catherine the Great. This doesn't oppose countless pieces of evidence where people benefit from democracy, as well, but it is an interesting fact.
And as for American minding its own business: I'd say that establishing a government which will act as an arm of the US in the middle east most definitely IS acting in Americas own business.
Here's the caveat: is democracy really democracy if its forced upon someone? Is freedom really freedom if you're forced into freedom? What is better.... to choose who your Emperor is (a la France under Bonaparte) or to be fed the illusion of democracy and really have no rule at all (a la Rome and US)?
Government, by definition, cannot exist without consent of the peoples. So it is safe to assume that monarchs, at the very least, maintain their popularity. A good example of people opting for Democracy by their own will would be the Philippines circa 1988. By the same coin, you easily could say that certain countries, such as maybe Jordan or Saudi Arabia, are examples of people opting out of Democracy to allow a despot (or at the very least a monarch) into power.
Compard to current governments, it looks like it can help in two areas:
1) Human rights
2) Poverty
But at the same time...even an Orthodox Islamic Theocracy is even better than what they have now, and secondly, the latter form of government may be accepted by the people moreso than a Western Style Democracy.
1) Human rights
2) Poverty
But at the same time...even an Orthodox Islamic Theocracy is even better than what they have now, and secondly, the latter form of government may be accepted by the people moreso than a Western Style Democracy.
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