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[Sky] "A new study suggests aerospace engineers and brain surgeons are not necessarily brighter than the general population"

EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
Staff Member


"
Their findings of their assessments suggest that contrary to belief, there were little difference between the intelligence of neurosurgeons, aerospace engineers and the general population.

Aerospace engineers and neurosurgeons were equally matched. However, aerospace engineers scored higher when assessed on their attention and mental manipulation abilities, whereas neurosurgeons were better at semantic problem solving, such as defining the meaning of rare words.

Comparing their results to the general population, aerospace engineers did not show significant differences in any areas.

Neurosurgeons were able to solve problems faster than the general population but showed a slower memory recall speed.

"These results suggest that, despite the stereotypes depicted by the phrases 'It's not rocket science' and 'It's not brain surgery', all three groups showed a wide range of cognitive abilities," researchers said.

"It is possible that both neurosurgeons and aerospace engineers are unnecessarily placed on a pedestal and that 'It's a walk in the park' or another phrase unrelated to careers might be more appropriate," they concluded.

"Other specialties might deserve to be on that pedestal, and future work should aim to determine the most deserving profession."

Researchers also said they hoped the findings would help dispel the misconceptions surrounding the perceived difficulty and skillset required for both professions - which are also seen traditionally as "masculine" disciplines.

"Our results highlight the further efforts required to widen access to these specialities to mitigate impending staff shortages and ensure a diverse workforce to drive future innovation," they said.

The study, published in the BMJ, was approved by the University College London research ethics committee and supported by the Society of British Neurological Surgeons and the UK Space Agency.
"

🧐
 
I think the family you grow up with makes a giant difference. Doctors tend to be hereditary a large amount of the time from my experience. Their dad was a doctor and they are one too. Always seemed that one of the biggest factors is having that role model showing you that its possible to aim high from a younger age. Its possible to do it all by yourself but its a lot more difficult and intimidating to push through those barriers if you feel like you dont belong. Financial support is also another large factor.

The results are interesting but they can be interpreted in a different way. You can take the results to mean that we're all equal so everyone can pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Or you can take the results as an indication that if we're cognitively equal, then what other factors contribute to the different outcomes? Family role models, money, family connection in school admissions are just a few i'd suggest. People make it entirely on their own sometimes but its more rare.
 

EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
Staff Member
I think the family you grow up with makes a giant difference. Doctors tend to be hereditary a large amount of the time from my experience. Their dad was a doctor and they are one too. Always seemed that one of the biggest factors is having that role model showing you that its possible to aim high from a younger age. Its possible to do it all by yourself but its a lot more difficult and intimidating to push through those barriers if you feel like you dont belong. Financial support is also another large factor.

The results are interesting but they can be interpreted in a different way. You can take the results to mean that we're all equal so everyone can pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Or you can take the results as an indication that if we're cognitively equal, then what other factors contribute to the different outcomes? Family role models, money, family connection in school admissions are just a few i'd suggest. People make it entirely on their own sometimes but its more rare.
People are not cognitively equal.
 
So I know neurosurgeons aren’t super geniuses since I work with them. But they are intelligent. And in order to complete the requirements for the career, they have to be incredibly driven. To me, this is like saying “anyone can bench 300lbs if they work hard enough.” Maybe that’s true, but willingness to do the hard work is what sets people apart. And similar to the bench press example, some people will need to work harder than others, and for some it won’t matter how hard they work, they will never achieve it.
 
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jufonuk

not tag worthy
People taking sky news seriously….yeah.

i understand you are not born with the same knowledge experience as doctors or aerospace engineers you have to acquire it over time and study. Still don’t give the lay person ideas. That’s how brexit happened.
 
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This made me curious so I read the study.
The GBIT cohort was recruited through diverse sources, including the BBC Two’s Horizon programme, the BBC, and BBC News home pages and news meta-apps.
It is also possible that the GBIT normative data might not represent true cognitive abilities of the general population as the test is based on self-selection rather than random sampling. The control group was mainly white, had completed secondary school, and had a university degree.
Basically, the "general population" here is people who actively seeked to do a real internet IQ test and actually finish it. That's a rather specific part of the population and this means the study has a huge selection bias.

I rate the article fake news/10

https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj-2021-067883
 
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FunkMiller

Member
Often it seems that levels of education are as important than pure levels of intelligence. The brain really is like any other muscle, when you get right down to it.

I’ve met some very savvy, clever people with lower levels of intelligence, and some frighteningly stupid smart people.

The combination of high intelligence, and high education is always going to put a person far ahead of the average though.
 
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jufonuk

not tag worthy
Welcome to the future.




Screen+Shot+2013-01-28+at+16.22.19.png
 
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EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
Staff Member
Made me think of


The full video is interesting, where you get their backgrounds:



Dunning-Kruger in a nutshell.

Appropriate to expect Ray at #1 as Harvard undergrad admissions is ludicrously competitive for Asian males. Everyone slept on Kaylee despite being a software developer. They must not have a very good understanding of what's involved there. Tyler's 94 ASVAB correlates with a relatively high IQ as well, but college-tracked kids don't typically take it so they're probably ignorant of it.

:messenger_tears_of_joy: Maria. :messenger_tears_of_joy:
 

Hari Seldon

Member
This made me curious so I read the study.


Basically, the "general population" here is people who actively seeked to do a real internet IQ test and actually finish it. That's a rather specific part of the population and this means the study has a huge selection bias.

I rate the article fake news/10

https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj-2021-067883
You should be kicked out of every academic credential for doing such bullshit shoddy statistics. How does anything get published with this crap?
 
You should be kicked out of every academic credential for doing such bullshit shoddy statistics. How does anything get published with this crap?
While the study is borderline useless, Sky News is at fault here with the clickbaity and frankly just terribly wrong article.
 
The full video is interesting, where you get their backgrounds:



Dunning-Kruger in a nutshell.

Appropriate to expect Ray at #1 as Harvard undergrad admissions is ludicrously competitive for Asian males. Everyone slept on Kaylee despite being a software developer. They must not have a very good understanding of what's involved there. Tyler's 94 ASVAB correlates with a relatively high IQ as well, but college-tracked kids don't typically take it so they're probably ignorant of it.

:messenger_tears_of_joy: Maria. :messenger_tears_of_joy:

I love how the people at the bottom have to pretend IQ tests don’t matter as soon as they didn’t score like they thought they would. I didn’t hear any of those excuses when they were ranking themselves in the upper half. Classic sour grapes
 
obamacare-27.jpg


Wasnt he a brain surgeon? i know this post verges or probably kicks right in the balls about the rules on posting political shit but as a non american he was the first name that popped into my head when i seen your post as i remember reading articles about him from various soruces and thinking Dayammmm man you be stupid as fuck
 

EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
Staff Member
obamacare-27.jpg


Wasnt he a brain surgeon? i know this post verges or probably kicks right in the balls about the rules on posting political shit but as a non american he was the first name that popped into my head when i seen your post as i remember reading articles about him from various soruces and thinking Dayammmm man you be stupid as fuck

His political rhetoric might be dumb, but Ben Carson is highly intelligent.

"Carson became the director of pediatric neurosurgery at the Johns Hopkins Children's Center in 1984 at age 33, then the youngest chief of pediatric neurosurgery in the United States.[5] At retirement, he was professor of neurosurgery, oncology, plastic surgery, and pediatrics at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine.[6] Carson's achievements include participating in the first reported separation of conjoined twins joined at the back of the head. Although surgically a success, the twins continued to suffer neurologic/medical complications.[7] Additional accomplishments include performing the first successful neurosurgical procedure on a fetus inside the womb, developing new methods to treat brain-stem tumors, and revitalizing hemispherectomy techniques for controlling seizures.[8][9][5][10] He wrote over 100 neurosurgical publications. He retired from medicine in 2013."

"Carson has received numerous honors for his neurosurgery work, including more than 60 honorary doctorate degrees and numerous national merit citations.[16] In 2001, he was named by CNN and Time magazine as one of the nation's 20 foremost physicians and scientists and was selected by the Library of Congress as one of 89 "Living Legends" on its 200th anniversary.[9] In 2008, Carson was bestowed the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the highest civilian award in the United States.[17] In 2010, he was elected into the National Academy of Medicine.[18] He was the subject of the 2009 TV film Gifted Hands: The Ben Carson Story, wherein he was portrayed by Cuba Gooding Jr. Carson has also written or co-written six bestselling books."
 
His political rhetoric might be dumb, but Ben Carson is highly intelligent.

"Carson became the director of pediatric neurosurgery at the Johns Hopkins Children's Center in 1984 at age 33, then the youngest chief of pediatric neurosurgery in the United States.[5] At retirement, he was professor of neurosurgery, oncology, plastic surgery, and pediatrics at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine.[6] Carson's achievements include participating in the first reported separation of conjoined twins joined at the back of the head. Although surgically a success, the twins continued to suffer neurologic/medical complications.[7] Additional accomplishments include performing the first successful neurosurgical procedure on a fetus inside the womb, developing new methods to treat brain-stem tumors, and revitalizing hemispherectomy techniques for controlling seizures.[8][9][5][10] He wrote over 100 neurosurgical publications. He retired from medicine in 2013."

"Carson has received numerous honors for his neurosurgery work, including more than 60 honorary doctorate degrees and numerous national merit citations.[16] In 2001, he was named by CNN and Time magazine as one of the nation's 20 foremost physicians and scientists and was selected by the Library of Congress as one of 89 "Living Legends" on its 200th anniversary.[9] In 2008, Carson was bestowed the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the highest civilian award in the United States.[17] In 2010, he was elected into the National Academy of Medicine.[18] He was the subject of the 2009 TV film Gifted Hands: The Ben Carson Story, wherein he was portrayed by Cuba Gooding Jr. Carson has also written or co-written six bestselling books."
thats the part i dont get, theres no questioning the fact that hes highly intelligent but man hes said some seriously dumb shit..

"My own personal theory is that Joseph built the pyramids to store grain. Now all the archaeologists think that they were made for the pharaohs’ graves. But, you know, it would have to be something awfully big if you stop and think about it. And I don’t think it’d just disappear over the course of time to store that much grain,"

I mean come on, not even the dumbest fucker in the world ever looked at the pyramids and thought.. Grain Store

"A lot of people who go into prison straight and when they come out, they’re gay, so did something happen while they were in there? Ask yourself that question,"

where do you even start with that? not to mention for being so smart he beleives in a magical sky daddy.. the list goes on tbh
 
heres another classic i read a while back..


Let me tell you about John.

John says he’s not crazy. I believe him.

“I am a normal person,” he says.

But John isn’t a ‘normal’ person. Not quite.

Well, he is and he isn’t.

John is a Doctor. A medical doctor.

Actually, John is more than a doctor. John is the kind of Doctor who manages other Doctors.

John believes the earth is flat.

John absolutely believes the world is flat.

 

Kilau

Gold Member
We all want the person opening our skull for surgery to not be someone with just average intelligence that happened to stay at a Holiday Inn Express the night before.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Different jobs need different skills. And I'm pretty sure qualifying to be a surgeon or rocket guy is a lot harder than being a fry cook. That's not to say they are good at everything, but for that kind of job you need a certain kind of mindset and skills. And I dont think being great at sociology or running a daycare centre with 30 kids running around is the kind of skill that is needed for their job nor do they care about it.

As for the article saying something about bad memory or recall, it may not be bad at all but these types just like to think about a good answer.

My dad is very analytical and will come up with the right answer just about every time for any business related, numbersy, logic to fix something etc.... But he never just wings out an answer in 2 seconds. Ask him a question and he'll ponder it for a bit and then give a long answer how to do it. That's not bad memory or recall speed, but more about needing time to think about the right answer and responding in full.

Ask someone how to fix a leaky pipe and they'll say get some tools, take out the part and get a new one at Home Depot. Ask my dad how to fix a pipe and he'll take a minute and then say..... "OK, this is what you do... turn off the water, get the tools, use the right wrench, get a bucket to drain the water, get some bath towels to soak up any water, dont lose the old washer so you know the size when you buy a new one etc...."
 
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RoboFu

One of the green rats
yeah the one thing I realized the older I get is a lot people are not nearly as smart as I thought when I was younger.

rant time!

You know what’s the biggest BS thing in academia? Fucking studies. Everyone likes to throw out “ according to a study “ when anyone with an agenda can skew any study. I can take take a study of the mental stability of society in a mental clinic and declare 9 out 10 people are insane but completely leave out that my group was in a mental clinic as long as I’m from a expensive school CNN will have a headline the next day.
 
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StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
I think the family you grow up with makes a giant difference. Doctors tend to be hereditary a large amount of the time from my experience. Their dad was a doctor and they are one too. Always seemed that one of the biggest factors is having that role model showing you that its possible to aim high from a younger age. Its possible to do it all by yourself but its a lot more difficult and intimidating to push through those barriers if you feel like you dont belong. Financial support is also another large factor.

The results are interesting but they can be interpreted in a different way. You can take the results to mean that we're all equal so everyone can pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Or you can take the results as an indication that if we're cognitively equal, then what other factors contribute to the different outcomes? Family role models, money, family connection in school admissions are just a few i'd suggest. People make it entirely on their own sometimes but its more rare.
Good point.

I wonder if there's a statistical survey showing how often kids follow in their parents footsteps.
 

Ionian

Member
My mates bro was champion cyclist when I was growing up, trophies all over the house and he never finished school.

He ended up disqualified from some race as he hit a pedestrian (child). Can't remember how a child could have been on the road but he was. I think he took it pretty hard.

Years later and in his 30's he went back to school and finished his final exams so he could apply for college. Extremely driven person, he aced his exams and ended up a pretty famous surgeon/doctor after college and flys all over the world. Also very athletic and does MMA and has been called on to both help train and treat fighters. I'd say he's minted beyond belief.

An extremely driven person who seems to excel at everything through hard work. He never liked me though, used to corner me and fart in my face and laugh like Beavis and Butthead. Still though gotta respect his drive whilst also not liking his farts.
 
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My mates bro was champion cyclist when I was growing up, trophies all over the house and he never finished school.

He ended up disqualified from some race as he hit a pedestrian (child). Can't remember how a child could have been on the road but he was. I think he took it pretty hard.

Years later and in his 30's he went back to school and finished his final exams so he could apply for college. Extremely driven person, he aced his exams and ended up a pretty famous surgeon/doctor after college and flys all over the world. Also very athletic and does MMA and has been called on to both help train and treat fighters. I'd say he's minted beyond belief.

An extremely driven person who seems to excel at everything through hard work. He never liked me though, used to corner me and fart in my face and laugh like Beavis and Butthead. Still though gotta respect his drive whilst also not liking his farts.
my next door neighbour is something similar minus the mma and farting bit, hes a surgeon, head of some UK wide department into his particular field, plays all manner of instruments brilliantly i might add and leads the choir in his church, teaches a bit in uni, list goes fucking on and on all all before he hit 30, his sister is a lawyer, brother is head chef at a 5* hotel.. absolute sound lad and a fantastic neighbour who we regulary call round for drinks with.. from my chats it seems his Da was quite the character and quite high up in society so they all got the best of education and no doubt driven from an early age by their parents with money being no object.. cant drink worth a shit though so i got that over him
 

Fbh

Member
Certain jobs require certain skills and types of intelligence. I think people often mistake someone being very skilled, driven, talented or smart in one area with them being extremely smart all around.
I've got a few doctors in the family and you often hear them talk about friends or acquaintances who are very good in their specialty, but make horrible financial or personal decisions, or get involved in obvious scams, etc
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
What Evilore's snippet seems to hint at is a dumbing down of the whole brain surgeon and rocket scientist pedestal in return for skewing to gender skewed jobs or let's say putting a less academic job on the pedestal.

I highly doubt anyone is going to do that and say "It doesn't take a midnight janitor to solve it".

Nobody is saying someone who is a doc or scientist is the smartest at everything in the world, but for those situations when it's stated, it's simply an exaggeration comparing a simple situation vs. intelligent people. I'm pretty sure people with high level science jobs arent morons who flunked high school. Nobody says only they can do it. It's just a saying. No different than calling someone "dumb as rocks". Nobody is as dumb as a rock.

That rocket scientist or doctor could be the smelliest, slobbiest person with zero personality. But a situation that needs some smarts to solve doesn't need someone prim and proper.
 

godhandiscen

There are millions of whiny 5-year olds on Earth, and I AM THEIR KING.
heres another classic i read a while back..


Let me tell you about John.

John says he’s not crazy. I believe him.

“I am a normal person,” he says.

But John isn’t a ‘normal’ person. Not quite.

Well, he is and he isn’t.

John is a Doctor. A medical doctor.

Actually, John is more than a doctor. John is the kind of Doctor who manages other Doctors.

John believes the earth is flat.

John absolutely believes the world is flat.

This happens because some individuals have inquisitive minds that do not accept knowledge for granted unless they can test it out themselves. When you think about it, lot of people take for granted the majority of things they believe in and never challenge their belief system. I do not believe the earth is flat, but I can understand how he can go in that rabbit hole.

As for the study. It doesn’t matter how hard it is to do something, what matters is the effect it has.
 
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StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
The tasks examined aspects of cognition, spanning planning and reasoning, working memory, attention, and emotion-processing abilities.
Who knows what this stuff even involves. Could be similar to IQ tests with time limits. Some of these things dont even seem related to smarts.

Each job needs certain skills, smarts and determination. Hell, most people wouldnt be a surgeon even if they were gifted a green light because how many people out there want to cut open people? I dont. I dont even like seeing my own blood when I get a cut. So right there, whatever that ability is (being able to handle squeamish things like blood and gore) is something surgeons are ok with which is a bold ability to have even though it has nothing to do with smarts or memory or whatever. And it's not the kind of metric recorded in tests.
 
This happens because some individuals have inquisitive moronic minds that do not accept knowledge for granted unless they can test it out themselves. When you think about it, lot of people take for granted the majority of things they believe in and never challenge their belief system. I do not believe the earth is flat, but I can understand how he can go in that rabbit hole.

As for the study. It doesn’t matter how hard it is to do something, what matters is the effect it has.
fixed that for you
 
This made me curious so I read the study.


Basically, the "general population" here is people who actively seeked to do a real internet IQ test and actually finish it. That's a rather specific part of the population and this means the study has a huge selection bias.

I rate the article fake news/10

https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj-2021-067883
This is almost always true. The moment you actually investigate source material, media stories fall apart.
 

godhandiscen

There are millions of whiny 5-year olds on Earth, and I AM THEIR KING.
fixed that for you

Ask yourself, how many of the things you take for granted, do you not really understand? Why do you believe in them?

I believe in tons of things I do not understand and I am happy to challenge those beliefs as I obtain new information. Some individuals not only are happy to challenge their preconceived assumptions, but yearn to get to the bottom of those beliefs and will not take explanations that don't make sense to them. Granted, not every flat earther has an inquisitive mind, plenty of them are just trapped in an echo chamber of similar thinking individuals. However, I can see how very smart individuals hold beliefs that go against the generally accepted ones; it is not uncommon, and it is thanks to individuals who go against the grain that science advances.
 
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This is not necessarily a comment on the article, but I think we overvalue intelligence as a society. I'm not saying that intelligence isn't important, useful or valuable - far from it. I just think that we miss some of the joy and beauty in life when our collective focus is so heavily fixated on the intellect - on what we're capable of comprehending and/or accomplishing through that lens.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Book smart does not equal street smart. True then, even more true now.
Exactly.

But what is true IMO is doctors and science jobs need some solid book smarts at minimum to do it.

Are book smarts better than street smarts? Depends on the person. And the job.

It's like when I took psych and sociology courses during my business degree. In one of these classes the prof brought up compassion and honesty. Which one is more important? Who knows. I've never thought about that.

For example, if someone screws up, do you comfort them to make them feel better. Or do go direct and say you messed up?
 
Exactly.

But what is true IMO is doctors and science jobs need some solid book smarts at minimum to do it.

Are book smarts better than street smarts? Depends on the person. And the job.

It's like when I took psych and sociology courses during my business degree. In one of these classes the prof brought up compassion and honesty. Which one is more important? Who knows. I've never thought about that.

For example, if someone screws up, do you comfort them to make them feel better. Or do go direct and say you messed up?
I’d say the ability to determine which person requires which approach is a type of intelligence that is difficult to measure.
 
Make quality spreadsheets.

Rinse.

Repeat.


I mean I've met a lot of smart people who never even went to college but would school you in knowledge.
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
I mean.. duh.

Anyone who took honors classes in school would know this. They are full of super studious people, often with parents who had them studying shit from the time they were 5, who go on to continue that into college/post-grad/etc. who aren't particularly bright. Those super studios people make up a good portion of the classic/prestigious "jobs" (Doctors, surgeons, engineers.)

Most jobs in "engineering" in general aren't for people actually coming up with dramatically new ideas or designs in general. At the core of engineering are standards/what government bodies enforce so a good portion of that workforce are people super knowledgeable with such standards and are doing analysis to ensure that other's designs are not outside of legal or regulatory body requirements.

Surgery is just full of such a wide variety of folks.. what they are actually doing is practically a sport as much as it is a science lol

Knowledge != intelligence.
 
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