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[Myoclonic Jerk]

thanks to the DS ?

i can see alot of 2D titles being developed for it, which makes me SUPER HAPPY, as a 2D gaming fan ..


discuss

 

[jarrod]

PSP's also getting more 2D games than I'd have expected (though to be fair, they're all puzzle, fighting or RPGs so far).

 

[king zell]

I hope..

 

[belgurdo]

Although I personally don't give a shit what dimension my games are in, it's nice to see that some companies still serve parts of the 2D loving community

 

[Cathcart]

What kind of 2D quality can we expect from the DS? Same as the GBA? As good as Neo-Geo? Close, even?

 

[jarrod]

What kind of 2D quality can we expect from the DS? Same as the GBA? As good as Neo-Geo? Close, even?

Better than both evidently... PS1/Saturn level really, and maybe better than that.

 

[Mr_Furious]

I wanna thank Japanese developers and the PS2 for helping keep 2D alive. I don't care much for portable consoles as it's still greatly limited compared to home consoles.

 

[dark10x]

Thanks to the DS? What makes you say that? They've been pushing the 3D aspects of the DS much more than the 2D...

 

[Project Midway]

2D games will live atleast on cell phone games. new, bigger and better displays are coming. Some of the best cell phone games seem to already have ~snes quality 2D graphics.

 

[bionic77]

I wanna thank Japanese developers and the PS2 for helping keep 2D alive. I don't care much for portable consoles as it's still greatly limited compared to home consoles.

Huh? Sorry but if you want 2D, the GBA is pretty much the only show in town these days. The PS2's 2D games seem to be all fighters and not much else.

And I would actually buy a DS if it had the same kind of 2D support as the GBA, but I just see that happening.

R.I.P. 2D

 

[DaCocoBrova]

2D games look damn good. I emulate more than I play the new 3D stuff. I'd hate to see it die. There seems to more artistic freedom and flexability.

 

[Parallax Scroll]

What kind of 2D quality can we expect from the DS? Same as the GBA? As good as Neo-Geo? Close, even?

Better than both evidently... PS1/Saturn level really, and maybe better than that.

I would love to try this PS1 or Saturn you speak of that does 2D better than the Neo-Geo. Where can I get one?

 

[dark10x]

Better than both evidently... PS1/Saturn level really, and maybe better than that.

Hmm...

In some ways, the NeoGeo is stronger at 2D than the PS1 and Saturn were...

Metal Slug 3 could never run perfectly on a stock PS1 or Saturn, for example. Will DS even have enough ram to handle such a game?

 

[jarrod]

I would love to try this PS1 or Saturn you speak of that does 2D better than the Neo-Geo. Where can I get one?

PS1 (and Saturn to a lesser extent) are held back by RAM limitations. Actually, even GBA has a more capable 2D chipset than NeoGeo, but it's held back by RAM pools and ROM ceilings. NeoGeo has the advantage of over a decade of R&D also... but really, there's nothing on NeoGeo that a 4MB RAM cart equipped Saturn can't handle.

 

[Parallax Scroll]

PS1 (and Saturn to a lesser extent) are held back by RAM limitations. Actually, even GBA has a more capable 2D chipset than NeoGeo, but it's held back by RAM pools and ROM ceilings. NeoGeo has the advantage of over a decade of R&D also... but really, there's nothing on NeoGeo that a 4MB RAM cart equipped Saturn can't handle.

True. A Saturn with the 4 meg expansion does 2D very nicely, at least for the handful of games that support it.

 

[DaCocoBrova]

In some ways, the NeoGeo is stronger at 2D than the PS1 and Saturn were...

How so? Sprite size? They all have h/w scaling and rotation IIRC.

 

[ArcadeStickMonk]

Metal Slug 3 could never run perfectly on a stock PS1 or Saturn, for example.

Uh, duder, Metal Slug 3 doesn't run perfectly on anything other than an XBOX, based on slowdown.

There's no reason that a PS2 couldn't handle MS3 without slowdown. It was just a matter of coding it a little better

Shut down that noise! The PS2 chopped and I saw it. Get back in your time machine.

 

[snapty00]

I believe the main limiting factor for 2D (and 3D, for that matter) DS games is the screen resolution. It's certainly better than GBA, but it's still not even Super NES quality vertically. And while it has two screens, that doesn't really double the resolution, since many (if not most) 2D games would be more suitable on one larger screen than a divided one.

I think the DS should've had a resolution of 480x320, with a slightly better dots-per-inch rating than the GBA screen. That resolution:

-Would be marginally higher than the resolution of the PSP
-Would totally blow away the resolution of Super NES and even most Nintendo 64 games
-Would be the exact same ratio as GBA, creating a situation in which GBA games could be played full-screen on DS without any distortion or skewing

For the future, I also think screen resolution would be a major limiting factor, because developers may be able to get better at programming the DS (and possibly even adding enhancement chips in cartridges like on Super NES, or adding GBA-slot add-ons for better graphics), but the screen resolution can't really be increased. So no matter how pretty the graphics, they're not going to be displayed over 256x192.

 

[jarrod]

Metal Slug 3 could never run perfectly on a stock PS1 or Saturn, for example. Will DS even have enough ram to handle such a game?

RAM becomes less important when dealing with solid state media, DS should have the same advantage over PS1/Saturn that NeoGeo did in that respect. It's worth noting that the NeoGeo CD couldn't handle Metal Slug 3 either, despite having the exact same chipset with a CD-Rom 7MB of RAM.

 

[jarrod]

How so? Sprite size? They all have h/w scaling and rotation IIRC.

Neo doesn't outclass PS1/Saturn in any department. It's only advantage is that cart ROM brings faster transfer speeds over PS1/Saturn CDs (though Saturn also had an optional cart interface, even if it was rarely used). NeoCD has more RAM than PS1 & Saturn though (but not more than a Saturn with the 4MB RAM cart).

 

[Parallax Scroll]

What are the load times supposed to be like for DS media? That was something that held both the PS1 and Saturn back.

 

[snapty00]

If DS cartridges are anything like Nintendo 64 cartridges, they'll be slow in relative solid-state time...but that would still make them infinitely faster than any consumer-based optical media.

 

[jarrod]

If DS cartridges are anything like Nintendo 64 cartridges, they'll be slow in relative solid-state time...but that would still make them infinitely faster than any consumer-based optical media.

With N64, it was the ultra slow Rambus D-RAM holding things back, not the cart ROM.

 

[jarrod]

What are the load times supposed to be like for DS media? That was something that held both the PS1 and Saturn back.

I'm not sure, should be quick though I'd imagine. 3DROM seems pretty effiecent...

And for the list of confirmed (ie: there's media) sprite based 2D games for the new handhelds...

Nintendo DS
-Caduceus Surgical Operation (Atlus)
-Egg Monster Hero (Square Enix)
-Kenshuui Tendou Dokuta (Spike)
-Mr Driller DS (Namco)
-Naruto (Tomy)
-Pac-Pix (Namco)
-Prince of Tennis: 2005 Crystal Drive (Konami/KCEJ)
-Project Rub/I Would Die for You (Sega/Sonic Team)
-Puyo Pop Fever (Sega/Sonic Team)
-Urbz: Sims in the City (Electronic Arts/Griptonite)
-Wario Ware, Inc. DS (Nintendo)

PSP
-Bust-A-Move Pocket (Taito)
-DarkStalkers Chronicle: The Chaos Tower (Capcom)
-Gaghary Trilogy: The Legend of Heroes (Bandai/Nihon Falcom)
-Popolocrois Story (SCEI)
-Puyo Pop Fever (Sega/Sonic Team)
-Shin Mojibittan (Namco)
-Tales of Eternia (Namco/Tales Studio)

 

[dark10x]

The DS has a higher quantity of 2D, based on that list, but a lower quality...

Is Kimi no Tame Nara Shineru really a 2D game though? That's kind of disappointing if true, as the style would seemingly work better in 3D...

 

[snapty00]

With N64, it was the ultra slow Rambus D-RAM holding things back, not the cart ROM.

No, the cartridge itself was "slow" (which isn't really slow, but it made the cartridges cheaper). One of the programmers for Resident Evil 2 even said that. He's got a Web site somewhere out there where you can read it.

 

[Link316]

So 2D gaming won't die still ?

it never did, plenty of them on the PS1 & PS2, last gen I actually had to caved in and buy the PS1 because it was getting all the 2D games

 

[Mr_Furious]

Huh? Sorry but if you want 2D, the GBA is pretty much the only show in town these days. The PS2's 2D games seem to be all fighters and not much else.

R.I.P. 2D

Not if you live in Japan. EspGaluda, MS3, MS4, MS5, DDP: DOJ, Stag XII, Psikyo Collections, and the Gunbird pack (amongst other 2D nonfighting games) would all disagree with you.

 

[Lyte Edge]

We already know that the PSP will have high-quality 2D games just based on the Tales game from Namco and Vampire Chronicle from Capcom (FINALLY....perfect 2D conversions on a handheld), but nothing 2D on the DS has really looked any better than the GBA games at this point.

 

[jarrod]

The DS has a higher quantity of 2D, based on that list, but a lower quality...

I'd say the good stuff is pretty even, but DS has those stinkers on the low end from Konami & EA. :/

Is Kimi no Tame Nara Shineru really a 2D game though? That's kind of disappointing if true, as the style would seemingly work better in 3D...

Look at the pics, it uses mainly sprites and bitmaps. Not sure how it'd work better with ploygons though really, given DS' capabilities?

No, the cartridge itself was "slow" (which isn't really slow, but it made the cartridges cheaper). One of the programmers for Resident Evil 2 even said that. He's got a Web site somewhere out there where you can read it.

Sounds weird. :/

Shouldn't really matter though as DS clearly uses different media from N64. The comparison's sorta left field.

 

[dark10x]

Eh, most of those DS titles don't really appeal to me...but they deserve a chance.

As for Kimi no Tame Nara Shineru...

I did not analyze the pics closely, but you seem to be right. With the DS's capabilities, I suppose 3D would not have worked very well. I believe that 3D would be a benefit for the graphics style in general rather than bitmaps...but I was not taking the DS hardware into account.

 

[jarrod]

We already know that the PSP will have high-quality 2D games just based on the Tales game from Namco and Vampire Chronicle from Capcom (FINALLY....perfect 2D conversions on a handheld), but nothing 2D on the DS has really looked any better than the GBA games at this point.

I think it's partially due to the resolution of the screens... PSP just has more to work with. DS has much more capable 2D hardware than GBA though, same chip in fact but clocked twice as fast and far more ROM at it's disposal.

 

[jarrod]

Eh, most of those DS titles don't really appeal to me...but they deserve a chance.

I'd agree, though I'm more excited about Namco's efforts in particular than any of the 2D PSP games (barring Vampire Chronicle). The DS surgery games are sort of interesting too, and TOE/Puzzle Bobble/Egg Monster Heroes look nice but outside that, everything's pretty forgettable. :/

I hope SNKP ports their upcoming Atomiswave games to PSP.

 

[snapty00]

Shouldn't really matter though as DS clearly uses different media from N64. The comparison's sorta left field.

No, the comparison makes perfect sense.

The point is that even if DS has supposedly "slow" media, it'll be faster than anything a current-day optical medium can dish out, much less the PSX and Saturn.

 

[jarrod]

No, the comparison makes perfect sense.

No it doesn't really. N64's ROM is quite different from 3DROM. Throwing out N64's supposedly 'slow' ROM carts as a solid basis for comparison seems more of an attempted reaching jab than anything here. Why not compare to NeoGeo ROMs or GBA ROMs?

 

[snapty00]

No it doesn't really. N64's ROM is quite different from 3DROM. Throwing out N64's supposedly 'slow' ROM carts as a solid basis for comparison seems more of an attempted reaching jab than anything here. Why not compare to NeoGeo ROMs or GBA ROMs?

Ugh. This isn't rocket science here, and yet, it went way over your head.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

No it doesn't really. N64's ROM is quite different from 3DROM. Throwing out N64's supposedly 'slow' ROM carts as a solid basis for comparison seems more of an attempted reaching jab than anything here. Why not compare to NeoGeo ROMs or GBA ROMs?

OK, perhaps the direct comparison doesn't have much reason to it, but the way I'm taking it is more like "We don't know much about DS cards... but even in a worst case scenario, the DS isn't going to have loading time issues complicating things like any disc-based system."