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[Aika'svyse]

Microsoft will release Q Entertainment and Phantagram's Xbox 360 action game Ninety Nine Nights in Japan on January 12, 2006. The development costs is said to be around 1.7 billion yen (US$15.3 million).

considering this game is susposed to be huge or something? Thoughts?

 

[border]

15 million dollars is an expensive videogame, yikes.....and 99N just looks like another cut n' paste, No-AI beat 'em up.

 

[Aika'svyse]

Yeah but 15 isn't 30 mil :lol

 

[StoOgE]

the budget is likely to pay for the producer and all the CG.

 

[Juice]

$15M is an extremely expensive video game endeavor.

Does anyone have the stats from this gen handy? I recall (avg cost) Xbox's being the highest and not being even half of $15M. GameCube came in cheapest.

EDIT: Okay, here it is:

Average game dev cost this gen of games from 28 companies via CESA
(source: http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/08/12/news_6130901.html ):


Xbox - 202 million yen ($1.8 million) / 13 titles
PlayStation 2 - 96 million yen ($877,634) / 194 titles
GameCube - 90 million yen ($822,857) / 11 titles
PlayStation Portable - 90 million yen ($822,857) / 6 titles
PlayStation - 80 million yen ($731,429) / 1 title
Game Boy Advance - 53 million yen ($484,571) / 47 titles
DS - 37 million yen ($338,286) / 3 titles
Dreamcast - 25 million yen ($228,571) / 2 titles

So the answer to the thread title is "NO" it seems

 

[Speevy]

That's because it comes on 15 disks. One for game content and fourteen for bonus character art.

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

Who said anything about next gen being cheap? It's always been accounted to go up. 15 million is right up that alley too.

 

[tetsuoxb]

.

 

[Aika'svyse]

The cost should go down right considering devs are probably going to create an engine and stick with it the whole gen.

 

[Juice]

The cost should go down right considering devs are probably going to create an engine and stick with it the whole gen.

Did you read the numbers I posted? Because the previous poster's right, the fact 99N is being produced in Korea probably halves the human resource cost involved. If the same game were made in Japan or America it might well cost TWENTY TIMES as much as a typical Xbox game.

The answer to your thread is an emphatic no, there's no way that anyone can consider development on the 360 to be cheap.

 

[Wario64]

CAGs are a developer's worst enemy

 

[ToxicAdam]

Which probably emphasizes why most companies (with brains) are going multiplatform.

 

[argon]

The cost should go down right considering devs are probably going to create an engine and stick with it the whole gen.

Less prominent developers will more likely license an engine for each title instead of develop one in-house. And while licensing is cheaper, it is on a per-title basis AFAIK so it may end up costing more in the long run.

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

Wait, $15 million for a Korean developed game?! Crap dude, $15 million is already highend for Japanese and Western developments!!

 

[Rhindle]

$15M for a high-quality next-gen game is about right. I expect most game budgets will be in the $10-$15M range.

 

[Aika'svyse]

I meant in comparison to PS3 it will be cheaper if the numbers rumored turn out to be true.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I read this at Magic Box earlier. How do we know it has any basis in reality?

 

[Aika'svyse]

I read this at Magic Box earlier. How do we know it has any basis in reality?

We don't really


Xbox - 202 million yen ($1.8 million) / 13 titles
PlayStation 2 - 96 million yen ($877,634) / 194 titles
GameCube - 90 million yen ($822,857) / 11 titles
PlayStation Portable - 90 million yen ($822,857) / 6 titles
PlayStation - 80 million yen ($731,429) / 1 title
Game Boy Advance - 53 million yen ($484,571) / 47 titles
DS - 37 million yen ($338,286) / 3 titles
Dreamcast - 25 million yen ($228,571) / 2 titles

Thats interesting thanks

 

[Spider_Jerusalem]

So 360 is cheap to develop for?

This isn't what many developers are saying. They're not telling that 360 is absolutely cheap to develop for, but that it's cheaper than PS3.

Everyone agrees that next-gen developement costs will go higher than current, but Xbox 360 will be cheaper thanks to the better development environment and mainly because XNA permits easier porting between 360 and PC platforms, so that development investments in one platform can be better reused in the other.

 

[Kobun Heat]

$15M for a high-quality next-gen game is about right. I expect most game budgets will be in the $10-$15M range.

And this money will come from... alchemy?

 

[Shompola]

Maybe it was 0.17 billion yen. Still sounds very expensive IMO.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Oh, and 1.7b yen converts to only $14.28m at today's exchange rate. So we can all calm down now.

http://www.xe.com/ucc/convert.cgi

 

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

This isn't what many developers are saying. They're not telling that 360 is absolutely cheap to develop for, but that it's cheaper than PS3.

I think you're conflating familiarity with tools as a means to cheaper development, but thats not necessarily the case. Its safe to say the majority of increased budget next-gen is going to universally be attributed to the art assets. So I seriously doubt we're going to see all that much difference in average budget between PS3/360 titles, no matter how the SDKs compare. The only way development on 360 will be significantly cheaper than PS3 is if MS decides to forego royalties across the board... but I think they're actually trying to make money this round.

 

[Juice]

And this money will come from... alchemy?

Mergers and milked speculation on wall street and from VC. Then when the sales don't meet development costs, the market will crash and all that'll be left is Revolution.

Or alchemy.

 

[Spider_Jerusalem]

I think you're conflating familiarity with tools as a means to cheaper development

No, I'm not conflating anything. These are developers comments, not mine.

The only way development on 360 will be significantly cheaper than PS3 is if MS decides to forego royalties across the board...

*And* if they plan to do a PC version of a game, too: from what I've read around, this seems to be one of the things developers and publishers like more and on which they think to be able to economize the most.

 

[Kangu]

Xbox - 202 million yen ($1.8 million) / 13 titles
PlayStation 2 - 96 million yen ($877,634) / 194 titles
GameCube - 90 million yen ($822,857) / 11 titles
PlayStation Portable - 90 million yen ($822,857) / 6 titles
PlayStation - 80 million yen ($731,429) / 1 title
Game Boy Advance - 53 million yen ($484,571) / 47 titles
DS - 37 million yen ($338,286) / 3 titles
Dreamcast - 25 million yen ($228,571) / 2 titles

This makes it pretty clear that the X360 won't be significantly cheaper to develop for than the PS3. The main thing driving up costs is going to be increased production values and higher quality art assets. Both consoles are going to need that.

Although... is the 13 Xbox titles the number of titles used in the study? If so its kind of worthless, especially the Dreamcast and PS1 data.

 

[Bebpo]

Holy Shit... $15 million... to make a game in Korea.

WOW.

That is the equivalent of $20-25 million if it was made in Japan.

I wouldn't be surprised if that game surpasses the budget for every previous Mizuguchi game combined.

He hit it right on the head.

Dude, this is from Korea. There's a reason some of these games are out-sourced to Korea...because it's CHEAP.

So 15 million dollars on a Korean-developred project is insanely expensive. Watching the videos for the game I don't even see how that's possible...but just wow.

I weep for every small developer next-gen

 

[dark10x]

Yeah, that's shocking. The game certainly doesn't FEEL polished or particularly solid in anyway (at least the TGS demo did not). Stiff animation and very un-responsive controls hurt the game.

Who knows, though, it could still shape up.

 

[Zaptruder]

They better sell a boat load...

MGS2 cost 10mil FYI

 

[aaaaa0]

So 360 is cheap to develop for?

Sure. Depends on what you're developing. Live Arcade games should be cheap to make.

 

[Mefisutoferesu]

How sure is the original poster about their number? Perhaps they misread the zeros or something? Or maybe, if it was in Japanese they cofused Oku as billion instead 100 million? I do it all the time. Or perhaps the source is mistaken? Basically, how sure are we about this number?

 

[Striek]

I think I saw a powerpoint presentation by Naughty Dog from the Australian Game Developers Conference that had [their] budgets increasing from $10million to $30million. And I read TeamBondi's budget would be similar. Both might've been referencing $AUD (Australian conference/Australian developer - $22million USD), but both refer to PS3 development...so I don't know. I'd assume PS3 development would be marginally higher.

mainly because XNA

Doesn't XNA release next year? Kind of hard to gauge the impact it will have.

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

I think I saw a powerpoint presentation by Naughty Dog from the Australian Game Developers Conference that had [their] budgets increasing from $10million to $30million. And I read TeamBondi's budget would be similar. Both might've been referencing $AUD (Australian conference/Australian developer - $22million USD), but both refer to PS3 development...so I don't know. I'd assume PS3 development would be marginally higher.


Doesn't XNA release next year? Kind of hard to gauge the impact it will have.

30 million? All but a few publishers can afford that.

 

[Frankfurter]

15 million!? So Nintendo was right

15 million ... wtf? How much units do they have to sell to earn atleast a dollar with this game? 1.5 million, 2?

 

[Striek]

30 million? All but a few publishers can afford that.

Yup. I guess Sony + MS can dish that out but it will be hard for others to compete.
Heres the powerpoint. I took a couple of (rough, resized for 56k) shots of the more interesting slides. Good read though.

Fear - An appropriate response to the future of videogame development.

 

[tetsuoxb]

.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

however, it is important to note that as games become more expensive, their financing will increasingly move towards a Hollywood model.

This should really have already started in a major way at the onset of the current gen... We need to break away from the traditional publisher yoke and be able to receive funding from the many, many people out there with money to invest, but not a brand and group of stockholders' expectations to focus on.

 

[gofreak]

Doesn't XNA release next year? Kind of hard to gauge the impact it will have.

XNA is not a singular piece of software. It's a concept more than anything else that is already supposed to be applied across some tools, I believe.

 

[Blimblim]

XNA is not a singular piece of software. It's a concept more than anything else that is already supposed to be applied across some tools, I believe.

Exactly. The only true piece software named XNA would be the XNA Studio

XNA Studio will enable enhanced collaboration between content creators, programmers, management and QA staff to speed the game production process. Based on Microsoft's Visual Studio 2005 Team System, the latest innovation of the flagship development platform, XNA Studio is the "Visual Studio" for game development; an integrated, team-based development environment tailored for game production.

XNA Studio will provide robust versions of key production tools such as asset management, defect tracking, project automation and work lists. These tools will work together seamlessly to automate common development tasks and present interfaces tailored to the different functions within the team. XNA studio will allow team members to collaborate quickly and effectively using familiar techniques and tools, even when elements of the team are distributed geographically, an increasing trend in game development. This all adds up to more developer time generating unique content and less time running the content process.

 

[Zer0]

the budgets of games are overinflated by the developers

 

[dark10x]

I wonder what kind of budget Shin Sangoku Musou 4 Special had behind it? ;P

 

[Blimblim]

I wonder what kind of budget Shin Sangoku Musou 4 Special had behind it? ;P

AFAIK, $10 and 2 bottles of cherry coke.

 

[Piepz]

15 million!? So Nintendo was right

15 million ... wtf? How much units do they have to sell to earn atleast a dollar with this game? 1.5 million, 2?

Do a simple math.
15 000 000 : 60$ = 250 000.
so if they sell 250 001, then it's already profit. I think it's possible to happen

 

[bloke]

I think Mizuguchi said 150 ppl work on this game.

 

[Frankfurter]

Do a simple math.
15 000 000 : 60$ = 250 000.
so if they sell 250 001, then it's already profit. I think it's possible to happen

That's interesting math...

I don't know how much of the price we pay goes to the developer, but it's definitely not ... 100% :lol
It's probably more like 5-15 Dollars (probably nearer to the upper end at full price and to the lower end if it gets a price cut).

 

[Redbeard]

Is that really so outrageous? I just read somewhere that Call of Duty 2 cost 14 million. It seems like that's going to be the norm next-gen.

 

[AJ_]

Is that really so outrageous? I just read somewhere that Call of Duty 2 cost 14 million. It seems like that's going to be the norm next-gen.

You're right. It's not outrageous, albeit Korea angle does make this seem high.

In general the word on the street is that while XBox360 will increase dev costs it will still be a walk in a park compared to PS3. Furthermore XBox360 is still close enough to PC world that you get the PC SKU almost for free (err... well not quite, but it's still a *lot* closer to PC than PS3 is). This may lead into devs doing Vista/XBox360 "exclusive" SKU's just to avoid taking the PS3 development hit.

 

[AJ_]

That's interesting math...

I don't know how much of the price we pay goes to the developer, but it's definitely not ... 100% :lol
It's probably more like 5-15 Dollars (probably nearer to the upper end at full price and to the lower end if it gets a price cut).

A couple of quick comments to that math:

Normally platform owner takes between $4-8 royalty from sales (with Nintendo tend to have highest platform fees, MS lowest). A kick ass developer working on a leading IP can close deals between $10-20M advance fee and some royalties for each sold title. Normally devs get anything between $2-6M in advances + royalties. Advances are almost always deducted from royalties, so as rule of thump devs typically start to make royalties after 500k to 1M copies have been sold.

Retailers typically take 20-30% margins from sold SKU's. Cost of goods for publishers tends to be pretty low $2-6 per unit.

 

[Juice]

A couple of quick comments to that math:

Normally platform owner takes between $4-8 royalty from sales (with Nintendo tend to have highest platform fees, MS lowest). A kick ass developer working on a leading IP can close deals between $10-20M advance fee and some royalties for each sold title. Normally devs get anything between $2-6M in advances + royalties. Advances are almost always deducted from royalties, so as rule of thump devs typically start to make royalties after 500k to 1M copies have been sold.

Retailers typically take 20-30% margins from sold SKU's. Cost of goods for publishers tends to be pretty low $2-6 per unit.

Most developers don't have it that good.

In the case of PS3/360, the only group not trying to recoup losses by fighting for a bigger share of the pie of that $50 will be publishers who don't fund the development of the titles they're publishing. But even then, so few developers will be able to self-finance development from here on out, that those cases will be few and far between.

It's going to get pretty ugly for the developers. Imagine Sony and MS as the sort of disconnected King of the land who just comes around now and then for some tribute, the publishers as the lords of the land who wield the real power and ownership of assets, and the developers as the serfs who don't see anything more than their basic salaries and absolute lack of job security.

And this is why I'm going to law school instead of game dev.

 

[Unison]

Wow... there are going to be some SPECTACULAR bombs next-gen.... This is going to be the FMV-era PC market all over again.

One thing to take into mind. The development budgets don't take into account the multi-million dollar marketing budgets these games will inevitably require.