Support NeoGAF

[AstroLad]

I used to fly a lot when I was a kid; then around 7 or 8 I must have seen a story about a plane crash because I've been fucking terrified of it ever since, though I've been on planes about 4 times since then.

I live in AZ and go to school in NYC and take freaking Amtrak for two and a half days each way to go back home for summer and winter breaks. Most people think my fear is somehow related to or was increased by 9/11, but that couldn't be further from the truth. 9/11 had no impact on my feelings toward flying because I was already as scared as I could possibly be of it. I basically have zero fear of "terrorism" or even anything specific; primally, my body and mind just don't like the idea of being 30,000 above the ground. I'm well aware of the statistical safety of flying, yet this has little effect on the fact that I don't want to be suspended in a flying tube five miles in the air.

I always told myself that I wouldn't let it get in the way of my life; and it really hasn't very much (other than the annoyance of losing four days of my vacation on Amtrak, which isn't really that bad since I have my laptop, PS2 controller and MAME going, as well as several books to catch up on), but now I am getting invited for callback interviews to Los Angeles and though, along with Phoenix and NYC, LA is a place I'd consider working, I'm seriously thinking of turning them down just to avoid having to fly (which they'll pay by the way), and taking the train would have me missing a week of school, which would be kind of silly.

Any experiences with this fear in general?

 

[Pimpwerx]

Yeah...I basically just stopped being a pussy about it.

Actually, no, I never had it. But my sister does, and she buses, drives or trains most places. She flew recently, but it was to go to Mexico. She does it only if it's an absolute necessity. But now she's discovered the wonders of Zantax, and that gets get through ok. Personally, I don't worry at all about the plane crashing. I realize I'm more likely to die driving to work. So I don't sweat it. And if you die in a plane crash, it's probably a pretty swify and painless death...soooo you have that to look forward to and all. :? Yeah! PEACE.

 

[Azih]

I think it's getting in the way of your life now AstroLad. Good luck though, phobias are not a nice thing to have.

 

[AstroLad]

I'm getting myself one of these:

If it's good enough for Madden, it's good enough for me!

 

[Triumph]

Mood altering substances are your friends. Go to a psychologist/psychiatrist and explain your malady, and he will gladly prescribe you enough kick ass pills to where you wouldn't care if you were on a plane or going down Jaw's gullet. Or you can just poke around and see if you can get some on the ol' dl.

 

[ArcadeStickMonk]

I was on a plane this year and honestly didn't care if it crashed or not.

Things can get bad... but it's really just perspective.

 

[Ill Saint]

And if you die in a plane crash, it's probably a pretty swify and painless death

Not counting those last minutes of utter terror, of course. Heh.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

I actually developed a little bit of a phobia of flying for a little while, which was odd because my father worked for an airline my entire life and I've been flying since I was newborn.

It kicked in around Puberty and all of a sudden I just found flying fucking spooky, especially landing, it was pretty irrational and I just forced myself to suck it up, it didn't quite go away though, so when I finished tertiary education I went and got my pilots license. It's all good now, I think the fear had something to do with not being in control at all.

Just rationalise it while you are scared.

 

[marko]

But now she's discovered the wonders of Zantax, and that gets get through ok.

lol, think you meant xanax. (unless she needed to lose weight for some reason).


And yes, any benzodiazepenes (xanax/klonopin/valium, etc) should work nicely in calming your fears.

 

[ArcadeStickMonk]

my father worked for an airline my entire life and I've been flying since I was newborn.

Word up, money, we ride that gravy train

er... I hope the airline wasn't Delta

 

[Incognito]

I used to fly a lot when I was a kid; then around 7 or 8 I must have seen a story about a plane crash because I've been fucking terrified of it ever since, though I've been on planes about 4 times since then.

I live in AZ and go to school in NYC and take freaking Amtrak for two and a half days each way to go back home for summer and winter breaks. Most people think my fear is somehow related to or was increased by 9/11, but that couldn't be further from the truth. 9/11 had no impact on my feelings toward flying because I was already as scared as I could possibly be of it. I basically have zero fear of "terrorism" or even anything specific; primally, my body and mind just don't like the idea of being 30,000 above the ground. I'm well aware of the statistical safety of flying, yet this has little effect on the fact that I don't want to be suspended in a flying tube five miles in the air.

I always told myself that I wouldn't let it get in the way of my life; and it really hasn't very much (other than the annoyance of losing four days of my vacation on Amtrak, which isn't really that bad since I have my laptop, PS2 controller and MAME going, as well as several books to catch up on), but now I am getting invited for callback interviews to Los Angeles and though, along with Phoenix and NYC, LA is a place I'd consider working, I'm seriously thinking of turning them down just to avoid having to fly (which they'll pay by the way), and taking the train would have me missing a week of school, which would be kind of silly.

Any experiences with this fear in general?

Fuck... I am the EXACT same way. If I can drive somewhere, I'll do that over flying. I used to fly 4-5 times a year up until age 15 or so, and I loved it. But now, fuck... it's the total lack of control that really bothers me, along with being 35,000ft up in the air.

 

[AstroLad]

Fuck... I am the EXACT same way. If I can drive somewhere, I'll do that over flying. I used to fly 4-5 times a year up until age 15 or so, and I loved it. But now, fuck... it's the total lack of control that really bothers me, along with being 35,000ft up in the air.

Haha... and it's absolutely hard to explain to anyone that doesn't have the same thing basically. I'm always amazed when I'm on the plane (well, the last time I was was about five years ago) and I look around and everyone's just sitting there bored reading their magazines like they're waiting for the damn bus. I don't look like I'm freaking out, but inside I'm going, "fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, when is this gonna be over?, fuck, fuck, fuck..."

 

[BigJonsson]

I've flown a few times, longest flight was to Israel from Toronto
I wasn't scared but damn, the sheer length of the flight was bothering me

 

[fennec fox]

So part of the reason behind an airplane phobia is the feeling of not being in control. So you take the train instead? What's up with that? You aren't any more in control then, and if I remember correctly, one of the most recent major terrorist attacks was on a train.

 

[Incognito]

Haha... and it's absolutely hard to explain to anyone that doesn't have the same thing basically. I'm always amazed when I'm on the plane (well, the last time I was was about five years ago) and I look around and everyone's just sitting there bored reading their magazines like they're waiting for the damn bus. I don't look like I'm freaking out, but inside I'm going, "fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, when is this gonna be over?, fuck, fuck, fuck..."

Yeah, same here. The funny thing is that I'll buy mulitiple magazines thinking that I'll be able to read them through the duration of the flight, but I know deep inside that I won't be able to.

Once I'm in the air, the cd player, phone, magazines all get put away and I just silently plead to whoever that I'll make it to my destination in one place..

And god help me if the plane goes through turbulence.

 

[AstroLad]

I've flown a few times, longest flight was to Israel from Toronto
I wasn't scared but damn, the sheer length of the flight was bothering me

Haha, you should try taking the Amtrak from NYC to Tucson. You sleep on the train for three whole days and get there the fourth night (though I have found a quicker way that goes through Flagstaff, I did that trip twice).

 

[Incognito]

So part of the reason behind an airplane phobia is the feeling of not being in control. So you take the train instead? What's up with that? You aren't any more in control then, and if I remember correctly, the most recent major terrorist attack was on a train.

Hehe, yeah. I dunno about AstroLad, but I feel infinitely safer on a train than a plane. Damn the statistics.

 

[AstroLad]

So part of the reason behind an airplane phobia is the feeling of not being in control. So you take the train instead? What's up with that? You aren't any more in control then, and if I remember correctly, the most recent major terrorist attack was on a train.

Nah, control I don't really think is a part of my fear, it's mostly just the 30,000 feet thing as far as I can tell.

Yeah, same here. The funny thing is that I'll buy mulitiple magazines thinking that I'll be able to read them through the duration of the flight, but I know deep inside that I won't be able to.

Yes! The last time I flew from Chicago to Phoenix, I bought a book and read like one page of it, just basically clutching it the whole flight with my cold-sweat hands and occasionally glancing at a word here or there.

 

[border]

Word up, money, we ride that gravy train

er... I hope the airline wasn't Delta

If he's been flying his entire life (15 or more years) then it's probably one of the airlines that's in serious trouble. The ones that are thriving aren't that old..

 

[Matlock]

Do what the pilots do to get over their fear: drink.

 

[jecclr2003]

Man was not meant to fly.. period...

Ironic for me.. I'm an overly tall man whos afraid of heights. oh and afraid of clowns too.. they freak me out. Mimes would be on that list too... possibly Circus Midgets as well.


Mybe the Chupacabra thing a few threads down would weird me out too... but just a little

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

i used to be fucking terrified of heights and planes. when i was 12, we had to take an amtrak to visit my family in minnesota because of me. when i was 15, i skipped on a family vacation to hawaii because of flying. i would never go on big roller coasters at theme parks or anything like that.

then when i was 18, i HAD to take a plane out of state, and it was my only option. i was surprised to find that, despite some nervousness and anxiousness while waiting for the plane to take off, i was okay once we were in the air. ever since then, i haven't been too hesitant about getting on planes or whatever else

it's not about statistics dude. you just have to tell yourself that nothing is going to happen. once you are in the air, you will honestly be fine. you have to conquer your fear someday, you can't let your fear of flying run your life.

to be honest i'm still scared of heights and flying in planes, but i just try to relax in those situations and let the natural course of action go by. get on the plane, sit down, and just relax your mind. you'll be fine trust me

 

[Incognito]

ha, believe me, i've tried just about everything to calm my fear. before my scheduled flight, i try to stay away from any TV/movies that depict airplanes crashing/blowing up/hijacked, etc, that's how fucked my fear is.

 

[fennec fox]

Well, if you really care about your future (and it sounds like missing a chance at a job you'd like may have an significant impact on that future), then you're going to change your behavior. As long as you try to avoid the experience of flying, you're never going to get over it. Trying to shut out the experience with alcohol or drugs is just a stopgap solution and it may not even work.

If it's heights, go find someone who can help you deal with going up in an elevator or standing atop a building and looking out at the horizon or something. If it's something else, then find a way to deal with that. It's not a matter of overcoming fear as much as it is a matter of dealing with it, or tolerating it. Pleading with your body to make the anxiety go away immediately never works.

edit: Remember, Madden can get away with it because he's the nation's best-known sports analyst. Back when he was a coach, he flew to all his games.

 

[Pachinko]

Having just flown to japan from edmonton and back again (edmonton-seattle-LAX then tokyo)

I have to say I can see where you're coming from but the way I kind of dealt with any sort of fear of flying goes as follows- convince yourself you aren't afraid of death. It all starts there, coming home we had some really rough turbulence but instead of thinking about the plane wobbling about 11,000 metres above the pacific ocean half way to LA I focused on the fact that I was watching a movie and that I had to pause it to avoid motion sickness. , focus on smaller annoyances while flying instead of the overall paranioa and fear.


I should say though that landing gives me a bad case of motion sickness. I dont know why it's only the landing but I just about throw up every time.

 

[AstroLad]

Could I get on a plane and think I'm fishing or something?

/Office Space

Having just flown to japan from edmonton and back again (edmonton-seattle-LAX then tokyo)

I have to say I can see where you're coming from but the way I kind of dealt with any sort of fear of flying goes as follows- convince yourself you aren't afraid of death. It all starts there, coming home we had some really rough turbulence but instead of thinking about the plane wobbling about 11,000 metres above the pacific ocean half way to LA I focused on the fact that I was watching a movie and that I had to pause it to avoid motion sickness. , focus on smaller annoyances while flying instead of the overall paranioa and fear.


I should say though that landing gives me a bad case of motion sickness. I dont know why it's only the landing but I just about throw up every time.

That's funny, the only time I feel remotely calm is when I can see the ground (usually at landing). Again, realizing this is one of the most dangerous parts of the trip, my fear still just magically goes away. Takeoff on the other hand... oh.... God... Just thinking about having to sit through a take-off almost makes my decision for me. That is good advice though about focusing on other stuff.

 

[Pimpwerx]

I have a superstitious thing I do on every flight. I always make a sign of the cross before takeoff. Connectors and all. Landings aren't as important, just takeoffs. And I'm quite atheistic these days. But meh, it keeps those little gremlins off the wings of the plane, and keeps the drunks awake in the cockpit. Just think, they're as reckless as anyone else doing any other job. :lol: Picture your favorite delivery boy flying you across the country, and kick back and relax. Don't worry, the seat turns into a float, and everyone can stampede to the miniscule emergency exits with the well-lit walkways...during an "emergency water landing" ... also known as crashing into the fucking ocean. Ah, you gotta love flying. :lol: PEACE.

EDIT: On a more positive note, I've never met anyone who's been in a plane crash...um...that could be a good thing.

 

[Incognito]

i'm not afraid of dying, i just don't like flying. also, landing/take offs are when i feel most safe. just seeing the ground... ahh.

 

[Wellington]

A year ago I was mortally afraid of it, had two flights that summer across the country. One to E3, and the other to Seattle. Luckily for me, my engineering background was able put my fears to rest. There is an incredible amount of science that goes into making those aluminum birds fly, and it all makes perfect sense as to why it should work and not fuck up.

The only real problem you can run into is if the plane hasn't been maintaned for an extremely long time. I'm sure you could get those records upon request.

I am flying to Chicago next week, go me.

Edit: Heh, oddly enough Half, takeoffs and landings are when you are most at risk. I'm not getting into why...

 

[seismologist]

I'm scared of being in a plane crash (or just falling from the sky in general).

But I live close by an airport and looking at the number or planes that take off and land round the clock (about 1 every 5 minutes). I think the chances of actually being in a plane crash are pretty slim.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

Oh yeah, takeoff, man, that's dangerous.

Do you know what a pilot says when there is an engine failure on take off?

He says "shit" and then plans on the best way to pile into whatever ground is dead ahead, no turning for you, no sir.

You should just view overcoming your fear as something you should do to be more of a man about shit, because I mean really, how many hot chicks are gonna be impressed with someone who is forever trapped in their own country?

Why don't you go do a skydive? That should alleviate about a third of the fear of falling from 30,000 feet.

 

[seismologist]

nah the better thing to do would be take flying lessons.

 

[Saturnman]

Bored with flying is a more chronic, IMHO. Crossing the Pacific in economy class, with little leg room, few opportunities to get up and just walk around (mostly because of 9/11, damned terrorists spoiled for us) and other passengers snoring loudly, it's unbearable.

Sub-orbital, supersonic flight can't come soon enough.

 

[Lord Error]

Do what the pilots do to get over their fear: drink.

Heh, a guy I know, who is a retired pilot, swore to me that most pilots he know really do that...

EDIT: On a more positive note, I've never met anyone who's been in a plane crash...um...that could be a good thing.

It really is. On the flipside, I know several people who have experienced some kind of nasty engine failures, where it felt like the plane lost control, but it always ended well. The people I'm talking about fly maybe 2-3 time a year, mind you, not a frequent flyers by any means. That's the thing I hope I never experience. It's enough that almost every damn flight I had in my entire life had to go through some heavy turbulence, which is one disgusting, and pretty scary thing to experience.

 

[thomaser]

I used to fear flying, and flat out refused to get anywhere near a plane until I was 20. Then, I REALLY wanted to go to Spaceworld in Japan (2000, when the GBA and GC were unveiled), and I booked a flight and the hotels. I knew that I could always cancel it if I couldn't do it, but I knew that I would regret it for all time if I didn't go. So one week before the trip, I forced myself onto a plane and flew only a short trip. Then I flew back. And I found that it was actually fun and comfortable, much to my surprise. So the next week I flew to Japan, a 14-hour trip, and had no problems. I've flown perhaps 40 times since then, and I can't go back to cars or trains now if I can fly instead.

You just have to force yourself to do it, and get first-hand experience that it's not really dangerous at all.

 

[TheQueen'sOwn]

On my trip to Hawaii, the engine failed just before we took off. They cancelled our flight and moved us to another one scheduled to leave a few hours later.

I got on with no worries at all lol.

 

[SteveMeister]

I was in a light plane crash in '85. It was spring break, and a pilot friend of mine and another friend decided to go to Rehoboth Beach (from the DC metro area) for dinner. Had a great flight out, an excellent dinner, and lots of fun walking to & from the airport.

On the flight back (it's about a 90 minute flight each way) we were flying over Maryland somewhere (it's about 1AM) when the pilot says, "Oh shit. Everyone shut up, and nobody panic." Then he got on the radio, "Mayday, mayday, mayday", gave the plane's registration & all that. Instantly, and I mean IMMEDIATELY, Andrews Air Force Base traffic controllers were on the radio. Basically they told us that they had us on radar, and to hold our course & we should see the landing lights soon.

But shortly after that, the engine cut out. So we're gliding along (Cessna 172), and the pilot's trying to get to a road he can see. He notices that there's a line of trees, indicating a field, so he swoops over into the field. But then he sees another line of trees in front, so he turns. Unfortunately the field is narrower in that direction -- he can see another line of trees coming up, and the plane's too low & slow to make another turn. So he did some sort of maneuver that stalled the plane, and we hit the ground at about 40MPH. Bounced along hard, the tricycle landing gear sheared off. We slid along the ground & the nose buried in a pile of dirt, and we flipped over, then slid upside down about 10-15 feet.

So there the three of us are, hanging upside-down from our seats. The pilot tried to tell Andrews we were down, but with the plane's antennae buried in the ground there was no response. I'm like, "I'm getting outta here", so I undid my seatbelt & fell to the roof, sustaining my only mild injury in the process -- a bruise where my shoulder hit the roof

Anyway the three of us got out of the plane & just kind of stood there for a few minutes in shock. Then the pilot said "I'm going to go try to find some help", so my other friend & I stayed by the plane. It wasn't 5 minutes when a helicopter started circling around, landing in the field. Some paramedics came over & asked if we wanted a ride out of there in the helicopter. My friend & I looked and each other & said, "I don't THINK so."

After a while, police, fire trucks, ambulances and several news organizations converged on the scene. My friend the pilot returned. We were all interviewed, and then taken to the hospital where we were each given a clean bill of health (although the pilot ended up having back problems for a while, and our other friend who had been in the back had some nasty seat belt bruises). At the hospital, the medics were surprised we had any urine left to give them samples. They said that usually when people come in from accidents, they have already emptied their bladders

I called my mom -- this is about 3AM -- and told her "Don't worry, everybody's fine, nobody was hurt, BUT -- we were in a plane crash." She said "OK..." and I heard my dad in the background saying "What? What??" A friend of ours (who is also a pilot) came & picked us up. He was SO excited. He wanted to know all the details -- what happened, etc. We just weren't in the mood at the time to talk about it. Finally got home about 5:30AM, in time to see all the news stories about us.

The newspapers all said that we'd run out of gas. And the 26-year-old Cessna didn't have a working fuel gage. But actually it did have plenty of fuel, and the pilot had checked it carefully before each leg of the flight. In talking with him later, he explained that as we were flying along, he would periodically switch fuel tanks -- there's one in each wing -- to keep the load level on each side. On the return trip, when he went to switch tanks, the engine started cutting out. He tried several times to switch, but it was clear that he wasn't getting any fuel from the one side. That's when he called the mayday. We had enough total fuel to get home, but not in the one tank.

The NTSB investigation revealed that a valve in the fuel line on that side that drains water from the system had clogged, and happened to fail completely during our trip.

Anyway it took me a while to fly again. And I'm still a bit nervouse on smaller planes. But I had several jobs where I had to travel extensively, and eventually I got over my fears. Actually I'm more afraid of a hijacking or a bomb than any mechanical or other sort of threat, and the chances of the former occuring on a flight I'm on are even slimmer than the latter.

 

[AstroLad]

Steve-

That is one crazy story; I definitely enjoyed how you wrote about it like it was some funny fender-bender on the way to work...

We slid along the ground & the nose buried in a pile of dirt, and we flipped over, then slid upside down about 10-15 feet.

...after having regained my sanity I would recall it like this... "AND THEN THE PLANE FUCKING FLIPPED OVER!!!!!!"... and so on.

 

[Incognito]

yeah, it was just way toooo casual for my tastes. hehe.

 

[Doth Togo]

Good story Steve.

My fear of flying is illogical. I've been flying since I was three and have lived and traveled all over the world to over 40 countries. Of course, I had to fly to get there. I've always loved planes.

About two years ago as I began taking more and more business trips I began to develop a fear of flying... The thing is, the fear is of specific airlines. For example, I get shit scared if I have to fly an "econo" airline...Southwest, Air Tran, ATA, Independance Air but I DON'T get scared if I fly United, USAir, American, JetBlue, etc.

The reason I have is that those airlines that are "econo" don't pay their maintenance crews enough to take care of the planes properly. Basically, you get what you pay for. Pay more money for a ticket...get better service and maintenance. Wanna pay $39 to go to LA from Washington DC? You'll fly an old plane with loose screws, etc.

Anyway, I get very nervous on the "econo" airlines and am trying to not ever fly them again.

 

[Mike]

Great story Steve!

Astrolad, please don't let your fear of flying prevent you from doing what you want in life. I have had a crippling fear of flying which came on suddenly about a year ago. I have seen a hypno-therapist (overpriced, wouldn't recommend), drink before flights (helps a bit) and also listen to this hypnosis CD (cheesy, but definitely helps). None of these methods will completely knock out your fear, but try them for yourself. I fly for work now all the time, and I'm still anxious but I love my job and the experiences and the lifestyle it affords me. I'm going to Tokyo later this month because of it.

Most importantly, DO NOT let this phobia have an impact on what you do with your life. Better you experience a few hours of fear than live a lifetime full of regret.

 

[seismologist]

I was never in a crash but last time I was on a plane the Space shuttle blew up about the same time I was flying over Denver. I probably could have looked out the window and seen it crashing down to earth

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

Man was not meant to fly.. period...

Man was not meant to go 65 mph unless he was thrown off a cliff.
Man was not meant to sail across seas either.

 

[djtiesto]

My g/f is deathly scared of getting on airplanes... which sucks since it really limits our vacation plans. I want to go to Buffalo *REALLY* badly, but would much rather go on a 1 hour flight than drive the 8 hours up there... Personally I don't care about flying on planes, I've flown to Paris twice (from JFK), and flew lots of little trips to Buffalo or Orlando... But I can't convince her to get on...

 

[Mumbles]

Flying? I'm not afraid to do it, in fact I've done it several times this year. OTOH, I definitely dislike it, mostly due to the unnaturalness of it. The fact that I'm sitting in an uncomfortable position, whizzing through the air but I can't feel or see much of anything, just bugs me. And for the record, I don't like driving or trains either, although I do prefer it to flying if the distance is reasonable. And actually, I don't even like elevators. OTOH, I'll walk just about anywhere, and I love bicycling. It's a combination of being out in the open, and using my own muscles to get around, that the cars and planes don't have.

 

[SteveMeister]

I don't understand all the "unnatural" and "man was not meant to fly" arguments. Flight is a simple matter of physics. Airfoil + power = flight. If it wasn't natural, birds wouldn't be doing it, either And given everything humans have figured out how to do over the past hundred or so years, it would be pretty damning on our intelligence if we hadn't figured out how to fly by this point.

 

[DSN2K]

I love taking off , that sudden speed rush just rocks.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

Oh crash stories! That reminds me, I went on a trip with my flying school, 20 people in 6 planes, 1 6 seater, 2 4 seaters and 3 2 seaters. now we all took turns riding and flying different planes starting in the North island and covering most of the south island of NZ, to make it down to the Warbirds over Wanaka Air show, it was a good trip and we all had a great time.
On return however, I had just had a ride in the 6 seater (Cessna 206) and was quite keen for another, being that it was the only one I hadn't been in a million times, so as we are loading up, I ask the Head flight instructor which plane I was in and he tells me the 4 seater with him and my friend that was learning to fly it, fine I think. So we take off just after the Six Seater and we fly along for about 40 minutes before we spot their wreckage on the side of a Valley, apparently the pilot went into a valley, didn't like the look of the cloud, and tried to turn around, being fully laden and flying to low in a valley, he stalled and killed everyone on board. Man I dodged that bullet good.

We had to be the spotting plane doing mayday calls etc. I still remember exactly what the guy said when I asked which plane I was on. "Uhhhhh, *looks at both planes* you're on..... this one *points at 4 seater where nobody dies*"

Phew.

 

[Pimpwerx]

I flew into Pittsburgh to go to CMU Summer of 1994, and I had an American Airlines flight booked by the school. That day, one of the flights crashed outside Pittsburgh. They didn't tell us anything, so it might have been a flight after me. I didn't see any wreckage either. But I forgot to call my parents until the next day, and they were freaking out thinking I was on the plane that crashed. :lol: Steve's story is why I gave up on the dream of becoming a pilot a while ago. The small plane stuff is where most crashes occur, and it's wierd stuff too. PEACE.