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[Ned Flanders]

Unkay. So it's 480p at best...no 1080i or 720p. That's a given. I'm currently in the "Drunk-off-360-visuals" state of mind where it's difficult for me to play SD console games, but I'm not such a tart that I won't be able to play fun games simply because they're not at uber-resolution.

Now if I understand this correctly, there's still a lot unknown about the Hollywood GPU and the Rev CPU (Broadway?), which could do much to determine whether the system ends up GameCube 1.5 or something more comparable to 480p 360.

So, are the questions regarding Broadway simply of clock speed etc, or is the architecture largely an unknown commodity as well? What's the anticipated performance ballpark, and what will that mean for CPU-dependent calculations (ie physics etc)? With a healthy clock speed, should something Cell-ish be approachable, or is the system simply not geared toward that kind of performance?

Regarding the GPU, is it possible for some enhancements to make up for the lack of HD resolutions? For instance, when I play Tekken 5 in progressive mode on my HD set, the colors jump out and the detail is very apparent, but there's also quite a bit of artifacting etc that exposes the flaws in the graphics (presumably because the resolution scales to 1080i?). Could some form of advanced filtering/AA/shaders be implemented in the chip to minimize the "gah" factor when playing the Rev on HD sets, or is it likely that the system is simply better suited for SD televisions?

When I see the art and detail in Twilight Princess, and I think of a machine capable of more than twice the performance of the GC producing games of that visual caliber, I get excited...HD or no. What I'm hoping is that the system is geared to compensate for it's deficiencies when it comes to the visuals so that I'm not in a state of shock when I turn off the 360 and turn on the Rev. Is it conceivable that because the system won't have to handle higher resolution outputs that the real-world performance could be far more approximate to it's competitors than we might have anticipated? In other words, could handling advanced, highly detailed visuals with a 480p ceiling only require half as much horsepower as it does to display those same visuals at 10801/720p?

I don't know..I'm hackish at best when it comes to comprehending tech, and this is really more of a stream-of-consciousness brainstorm thread than anything. I guess I'm just interested in impressions for those more knowledgable on the subject. Oh and sanctioned trolls as well!

 

[AniHawk]

We're only three months away, man.

 

[bumpkin]

I'm as curious as the next guy as to what the Revolution's going to have to offer, but let's face the facts; we aren't going to know shit 'til E3. Sad but true.

I'd love for the Rev. to be surprisingly powerful -- hell, I think it'd be hilarious if the specs we've been hearing are totally wrong -- but I'm not holding my breath. The <$299 price tag pretty much dictates that it won't have the umph of the 360. But in my opinion, even a system with double the power of the 'Cube would still be a nice li'l unit. There's no denying the current 'Cube has a fair amount of power under the hood. Need I bring up Resident Evil 4, Zelda: Twilight Princess, or Super Smash Bros. Melee?

 

[xexex]

So, are the questions regarding Broadway simply of clock speed etc, or is the architecture largely an unknown commodity as well? What's the anticipated performance ballpark, and what will that mean for CPU-dependent calculations (ie physics etc)? With a healthy clock speed, should something Cell-ish be approachable, or is the system simply not geared toward that kind of performance?

as I guess you already understand,

Broadway could hypothetically run at 250 MHz and absolutely SMOKE the Gekko running at ~485 MHz, depending on the Broadway's architecture vs that of Gekko. just like any other CPU vs CPU comparison.

pretty much the same thing with GPUs. thus Flipper vs Hollywood. is it just a clockspeed boost or a new architecture ?

not long to find out now, I hope

 

[Juice]

There is no amount of AA or other visual effects that can be done to simply make up for a low resolution. Especially on fixed res screens (LCDs, etc), the Revolution just won't be in control of the pixels it isn't outputting.

A few things could help ensure things look better than not. The first is to have 16:9, 480p be the bare minimum standard of all games and to have the visual settings stored on the console itself. The biggest disparity will come from games that aren't native 16:9 being stretched to that aspect ratio.

Other than that, Rev games just aren't going to be as eye-popping on HDTVs as anything running at a native resolution. The best "effect" aside from taking advantage of per-pixel shading (a fourth the pixels makes it an inexpensive treat) is just sitting down and playing a game for ten minutes. If you'll put up with ten minutes of a game running at a lower res than you're used to, you'll adjust to it and stop actively noticing it (assuming the game manages to suspend your disbelief, immerse you somewhat).

Still, yeah. Write Perrin Kaplan a letter? I understand why Nintendo isn't beefing up the innards of the Revolution, but it's going to make them look far more silly in five years than it does now.

 

[Ned Flanders]

We're only three months away, man.

Scratch my itch, dammit! Three months is a long time to sit with your dick in your hand wondering..

There is no amount of AA or other visual effects that can be done to simply make up for a low resolution. Especially on fixed res screens (LCDs, etc), the Revolution just won't be in control of the pixels it isn't outputting.

Well said. Haven't thought of it like that.

 

[fly high ~ayunite~]

Aslong as the textures aren't blurry, I don't care.

 

[kaizoku]

Put it this way, graphics in stuff like Black, RE4, Gran Turismo, Grandia III, Rogue Galaxy, Shadow of the Collosus etc all look pretty mint as it is and they're only current gen.

Revolution will be producing graphics much beter than those. Thats the entrance fee to next gen, thats the progress of technology.

Next gen will see a leap in graphics for sure, but its art direction which is the real big difference. Otherwise it doesn't make much difference how shiny or jaggy-free a character is, see certain x360 games where I would actually prefer PS2 graphics.

 

[xabre]

Why care, it'll be good enough. Things have changed a lot since the SNES/N64 days and graphics are simply no longer Nintendo's focus; better get used to it.

 

[Nightbringer]

Revolution will have better graphics than Xbox, we can be sure of this.

 

[quetz67]

I think the main difference to PS3/x360 will in the raw fillrate power. I think who expects Gamecube 1.5 will be disappointed, I am sure the Rev chip will offer shaders and effects close to the competition. Textures will take a hit, but at the lower res half-res textures (1/4 the memory needed) will still look fine.

The Rev sure wont be the (only) next-gen machine for the graphics whores anyway because of the lack of high definition and the most graphically impressive PS3/x360 will beat the best looking Rev games, but the next-gen Metroid Prime, Zelda and whatever will look gorgeous anyway. Imagine RE4 with better textures, higher poly count and better lighting/effects...even if everything only improves by factor 2 it would look jaw dropping.

The cheap ports will probably look the same just at lower resolution, while the better 3rd party multiplatform stuff will probably be toned down a little (mostly textures/geometry if you ask me).

But who wants a Rev for ports anyway? For me it is the perfect PS3 companion for my Nintendo franchise fix and for Revmote style gaming (1st/2nd/3rd party).

 

[Borys]

Even the highest of high-end PC games that require 7800 SLI to look great can be run in 640x480 on GeForce 4.

They still look good, only low-res.

I wouldn't be afraid of Revolution graphics - as I said earlier - take Unreal Tournament 2007 or Gears of War, put them in 640x480 resolution, minimum texture & geometry detail, shader model 1/2/3 and you're set.

Same game?

Yep, only looking worse.

 

[El_Victor]

Even the highest of high-end PC games that require 7800 SLI to look great can be run in 640x480 on GeForce 4.

They still look good, only low-res.

I wouldn't be afraid of Revolution graphics - as I said earlier - take Unreal Tournament 2007 or Gears of War, put them in 640x480 resolution, minimum texture & geometry detail, shader model 1/2/3 and you're set.

Same game?

Yep, only looking worse.

PC-man speaks the truth.

 

[quetz67]

Even the highest of high-end PC games that require 7800 SLI to look great can be run in 640x480 on GeForce 4.

They still look good, only low-res.

I wouldn't be afraid of Revolution graphics - as I said earlier - take Unreal Tournament 2007 or Gears of War, put them in 640x480 resolution, minimum texture & geometry detail, shader model 1/2/3 and you're set.

Same game?

Yep, only looking worse.

I would say the difference is like 7800 SLI and 6600GT. And I can play e.g. Halflife 2 at lower resolutions on a 6600GT WITHOUT reducing texture or geometry settings, even the full shader effects are there.

 

[Version 3.0]

The <$299 price tag pretty much dictates that it won't have the umph of the 360.

It's a year down the technology curve. If the Rev is $299, it better be as powerful as a 360. The PS2 was $299 at launch, the Cube was $199 a year later, and more powerful.

If the Rev is underpowered, it better be <$199. The 360 will probably be $299 (premium) when the Rev arrives.

 

[quetz67]

It's a year down the technology curve. If the Rev is $299, it better be as powerful as a 360. The PS2 was $299 at launch, the Cube was $199 a year later, and more powerful.

If the Rev is underpowered, it better be <$199. The 360 will probably be $299 (premium) when the Rev arrives.

EXACTLY!

The only excuse for a higher pricetag would be if the Revmote tech is expensive, but still you wont be able to explain that to the customer.

Even if Nintendo uses exactly the same tech as the x360, just with 20% lower core frequencies they would already save $50-$100 and being more powerful then at 480p

 

[jarrod]

pretty much the same thing with GPUs. thus Flipper vs Hollywood. is it just a clockspeed boost or a new architecture ?

ATi already confirmed it's an entirely new custom chip design, likely with some level of legacy compatability (for GC playback).

More generally though, I think a braod comparison to Chihiro/Lindbergh is probably the sort of jump we can expect. Chip speeds and RAM look to be a similar scale increase in both cases... so the visual jump in Mario Sunshine to Mario Revolution will likely be along the lines of the visual jump from HotD3 to HotD4.

 

[Nightbringer]

ATi already confirmed it's an entirely new custom chip design, likely with some level of legacy compatability (for GC playback).

More generally though, I think a braod comparison to Chihiro/Lindbergh is probably the sort of jump we can expect. Chip speeds and RAM look to be a similar scale increase in both cases... so the visual jump in Mario Sunshine to Mario Revolution will likely be along the lines of the visual jump from HotD3 to HotD4.

Flipper is en equivalent to a DirectX 7 GPU (Radeon DDR, GeForce256, GeForce 2) and it can be expanded with more Texture Units and including Vertex and Pixel Shaders.

 

[Xrenity]

What makes me wonder is Twilight Rockstar (click) said we won't see any screenshots 'until some aspects are announced'.

What does it mean? Stereoscopic 3d? Some crazy new rendering format?

 

[jarrod]

Flipper is en equivalent to a DirectX 7 GPU (Radeon DDR, GeForce256, GeForce 2) and it can be expanded with more Texture Units and including Vertex and Pixel Shaders.

Right... I should clairify that I'm not saying Revolution will be equal to LindBergh (or that GC is equivalent to Chihiro). I'm just saying the progression between machines will probably be very comparable, both designs look to be basically upscaled revisions (next gen family chips, extra RAM, clockspeed boosts, etc) as oppossed to the evolution of PS3/360 from their predecessors.

 

[Shiggy]

What makes me wonder is Twilight Rockstar (click) said we won't see any screenshots 'until some aspects are announced'.

What does it mean? Stereoscopic 3d? Some crazy new rendering format?

Correct. That's why some people talk about a "3D controller".
But this is still pure speculation, although people like Broke Burgess and Robert Rodriguez already talked about it.

There has to be some sort of this, otherwise they would have shown screenshots or videos. A game that looked in 2005 worse than a Xbox 360 game won't look better in 2006.

 

[DaCocoBrova]

HD is nice and all, but I have complete faith in Nintendo putting out a very capable console.

 

[Thraktor]

ATi already confirmed it's an entirely new custom chip design, likely with some level of legacy compatability (for GC playback).

It'd be a pretty safe bet that the same will be true of 'Broadway', as Nintendo has said that they're going for a "low power consumption" design, and that certainly doesn't fit any of IBM's current line-up (such as the G5).

Although Nintendo has indicated that they'll probably never actually release the specs for the Rev, I'd be very interested to see what choices they've made with regard to CPU and GPU architecture/design. With fully custom chipsets from both manufacturers, and likely lower clockspeeds on both processors, it'll be nice to see if Nintendo really manage to optimise the hardware for 480p and achieve their goal of "looking the same as the competition on SD sets".

 

[Thraktor]

There has to be some sort of this, otherwise they would have shown screenshots or videos. A game that looked in 2005 worse than a Xbox 360 game won't look better in 2006.

Not neccesarily, they could be waiting until the games are playable before showing it, like they did with the DS, so that the actual gameplay impressions overshadow any negative reactions to the graphics.

 

[Nightbringer]

Nintendo64:

CPU: Equivalent to a 486DX4 100Mhz with a Geometry Engine.
GPU: Something between Playstation and Voodoo Graphics, Playstation is 1994 tech and Voodoo Graphics 1996 tech, we can say that N64 is 1995 tech.

Gamecube:

CPU: PowerPC 750CXe modified with an extra FPU, it has a level of a CPU of 1999.
GPU: The same level of a GeForce2 Ultra.

Revolution:

CPU: Unknow, but with a performance 2.5 times better than the Gekko. This isn´t the equivalent to say that the CPU will be a Gekko overclocked around the 1.5Ghz.

GPU: Something at the same level of a GeForce 6800 but clocked at 350-450Mhz and with 3MB as L2 Cache.

 

[MrSardonic]

Scratch my itch, dammit! Three months is a long time to sit with your dick in your hand wondering.

Three months isn't long enough if you've got a girlfriend to tend to your penis while you wait.

If Rev games look like BLACK x 2, the price isn't more than $299 (for the console and full controller), and the Revmote turns out to be awesome, then I'm sold on the idea.

 

[Shiggy]

Not neccesarily, they could be waiting until the games are playable before showing it, like they did with the DS, so that the actual gameplay impressions overshadow any negative reactions to the graphics.

They could have made games playable at TGS05.

 

[Nightbringer]

They could have made games playable at TGS05.

They had games running in the alpha kits of Revolution (based on the overcloked Gamecube hardware, some people played to them) but the alpha kit isn´t the same of the Final Hardware.

 

[Shiggy]

They had games running in the alpha kits of Revolution (based on the overcloked Gamecube hardware, some people played to them) but the alpha kit isn´t the same of the Final Hardware.

Thanks for the clear up.

 

[SnakeXs]

Saying they had playable "games" is misleading. They had tech demos, to roughly show what the Revmote is about, and some simple concepts and possibilities.

 

[Shiggy]

Saying they had playable "games" is misleading. They had tech demos, to roughly show what the Revmote is about, and some simple concepts and possibilities.

This means it was the same situation as it was at E3 2004 (DS presentation).

 

[Nightbringer]

Saying they had playable "games" is misleading. They had tech demos, to roughly show what the Revmote is about, and some simple concepts and possibilities.

Nintendo is using a different strategy than Sony and Microsoft. For Nintendo the key isn´t the HD era is the FreeStyle controller and they need to put down the Revolution Specs for to create hype for the FreeStyle.

 

[gamergirly]

So those "rumored" specs reported by Matt at IGN, everyone has stopped believing?

 

[Nightbringer]

So those "rumored" specs reported by Matt at IGN, everyone has stopped believing?

Yes, because it´s an article with a lot of misunderstanding and bullshit.

1. First he says that the power of the CPU and the GPU is the twice of Gamecube but at the end of the article he says that he doesn´t know anything about the GPU.

2. In some paragraphs he talks about an overclocked GCN, in others something like an overclocked Xbox. Since the Xbox has elements like the Shader Unit that the GCN hardware hasn´t the problem in the credibility of the article starts to go down.

I can talk about a lot of errors in the Matt article, but this isn´t important now, the important is that the article is a glorified fake by Matt, the boy that wanted to work in 360.ign.com instead of revolution.ign.com

 

[My Arms Your Hearse]

He wanted to work for the 360 site? :lol

Matt has always come across as pretty much a Nintendo fanboy, but he has always also been an extereme graphics whore (one wonders why he doesn't slobber over PC then).

He docked RE4 for having "fake widescreen."

 

[Shiggy]

He wanted to work for the 360 site? :lol

Matt has always come across as pretty much a Nintendo fanboy, but he has always also been an extereme graphics whore (one wonders why he doesn't slobber over PC then).

He docked RE4 for having "fake widescreen."

Silicon Knights could be another reason why he wanted to do this

 

[Musashi Wins!]

I think the lack of 720 is going to be pretty dissapointing in the long run. That's just a given after playing games pretty regularly now in it. But I'm hoping the novelty of a cool control make it not such a big deal.

 

[quetz67]

can someone define or explain Stereoscopic 3d, and how it is different to the gyro controller we have now? is this a feature that would be in addition to the gyro controller?

Stereoscopic 3D is real 3D, which means 3D vision.

Gyro is only for the control...not that the Rev controllers would use gyros, just the effect is similar

 

[maxmars]

can someone define or explain Stereoscopic 3d, and how it is different to the gyro controller we have now? is this a feature that would be in addition to the gyro controller?

I'm just saying that I'm not going to put up with funny goggles. :lol

 

[bengraven]

Why care, it'll be good enough. Things have changed a lot since the SNES/N64 days and graphics are simply no longer Nintendo's focus; better get used to it.

I don't think Nintendo can afford to take the risk of a high-powered system in this day and age. They can't afford to lose money AND with their focus on their new, port-unfriendly controller to market, they'll need backup.

Personally, I think this system is just a toy now. All these years, people have tried to make video systems be taken seriously and Nintendo slaps us in the face and says calmly, "fuck it, this a toy, bitches".

Oh well, Revolution is going to last on my list, though may end up surprising me in the end, much like how the DS was the last current gen system I bought.

 

[papercut]

Yes, because it´s an article with a lot of misunderstanding and bullshit.

1. First he says that the power of the CPU and the GPU is the twice of Gamecube but at the end of the article he says that he doesn´t know anything about the GPU.

2. In some paragraphs he talks about an overclocked GCN, in others something like an overclocked Xbox. Since the Xbox has elements like the Shader Unit that the GCN hardware hasn´t the problem in the credibility of the article starts to go down.

I can talk about a lot of errors in the Matt article, but this isn´t important now, the important is that the article is a glorified fake by Matt, the boy that wanted to work in 360.ign.com instead of revolution.ign.com

I don't get why people come down so hard on him. He just passed along whatever developers were telling him, and considering that everyone is under NDA, I'm surprised that that much even got out. Yes there's a lot of ambiguity but what were you expecting?

It's going to have roughly 2x the power of the GC, get over it.

 

[quetz67]

I don't get why people come down so hard on him. He just passed along whatever developers were telling him, and considering that everyone is under NDA, I'm surprised that that much even got out. Yes there's a lot of ambiguity but what were you expecting?

It's going to have roughly 2x the power of the GC, get over it.

Sure not, I cant imagine how Nintendo would be able to get chips built that are only 2x the power of GC. Even IF it was true for clock speeds the shaders would make all the difference.

 

[Spike]

When has a Nintendo system been underpowered? Nothing to worry about. HD isn't here yet, but it will be out in full force in the generation after this one. At least they are going to have 16:9 for all their stuff, so that is a plus.

It'll be fine.

 

[SnakeXs]

When has a Nintendo system been underpowered? Nothing to worry about. HD isn't here yet, but it will be out in full force in the generation after this one. At least they are going to have 16:9 for all their stuff, so that is a plus.

It'll be fine.

Tell that to Colossus.

Not having HD is far from good, and will be much worse as time goes on, but at least they are doing widescreen. But, I totally understand why they omitted it, and don't mind at all, even as an HDTV owner. PS2 looks fairly bad, but Xbox1 and GCs output is actually really good, and far from "bad" on my TV. So, I doubt I'll ever say Revolution games look "ugly".

 

[Nightbringer]

I don't get why people come down so hard on him. He just passed along whatever developers were telling him, and considering that everyone is under NDA, I'm surprised that that much even got out. Yes there's a lot of ambiguity but what were you expecting?

It's going to have roughly 2x the power of the GC, get over it.

O RLY?

Why every one of Matt sources contradicts the others?

 

[Spike]

Tell that to Colossus.

Not having HD is far from good, and will be much worse as time goes on, but at least they are doing widescreen. But, I totally understand why they omitted it, and don't mind at all, even as an HDTV owner. PS2 looks fairly bad, but Xbox1 and GCs output is actually really good, and far from "bad" on my TV. So, I doubt I'll ever say Revolution games look "ugly".

Exactly. The games won't look ugly at all. In fact, I'm going to go even as far to say that the best looking games on the Rev will look better than the majority of HD games on PS3/X360. Yes, the PS3/X360 will have their top-tier games that will look much better than the Rev's, but I don't really see that much of a gap.

Besides, I'm more interested in gameplay than graphics, and if this controller really does change things up like Nintendo implies it will, I'll be more than happy.

 

[AniHawk]

Exactly. The games won't look ugly at all. In fact, I'm going to go even as far to say that the best looking games on the Rev will look better than the majority of HD games on PS3/X360. Yes, the PS3/X360 will have their top-tier games that will look much better than the Rev's, but I don't really see that much of a gap.

Besides, I'm more interested in gameplay than graphics, and if this controller really does change things up like Nintendo implies it will, I'll be more than happy.

A system's power doesn't simply mean better graphics, though.

 

[Juice]

Not having HD is far from good, and will be much worse as time goes on, but at least they are doing widescreen. But, I totally understand why they omitted it, and don't mind at all, even as an HDTV owner. PS2 looks fairly bad, but Xbox1 and GCs output is actually really good, and far from "bad" on my TV. So, I doubt I'll ever say Revolution games look "ugly".

I agree.

Also to the grandparent, 16:9 is not confirmed as standard on the Rev, so we can't know. Sorry if you got that idea from me, it's just constantly on my list of "things Nintendo absolutely must do to even resemble relevance." Still not confirmed, unfortunately.

 

[guise]

I think people should stop using the best looking games from this gen as benchmarks for next gen.

Not every dev team is talented enough to make that kind of jump, saying that "rev games will look 2x RE4" or "2X sotc" or black is complete and utter bullshit. Sure, some games will look awesomely awesome, but i think most of the stuff will pale in comparrison to the 360/ps3 - graphically speaking.

The big benefit the Rev has is having a dev environment so similar to the GC so it will allow devs to jump into taking advantage of the consoles power faster. We all saw the state of the majority of the 1st generation 360 titles, i dont think the same will happen with the rev since devs will know how to take advantage of it easier.

 

[Spike]

Also to the grandparent, 16:9 is not confirmed as standard on the Rev, so we can't know. Sorry if you got that idea from me, it's just constantly on my list of "things Nintendo absolutely must do to even resemble relevance." Still not confirmed, unfortunately.

Actually, in that IGN Rev Podcast from a few weeks ago, Matt or Mark said that 16:9 was standard.