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[Grug]

This will be hard to explain but I'll try.

Lets say you are playing a sword fighting game. You swing your controller through the air and in the game, your sword clashes with your opponent. Like this.

Fig.1

So in the game, your sword is locked in the air with your opponents sword yet because there is no physical reaction on your controller, you have completely followed through in your swinging action and where your controller is now, does not match what is happening on the screen. What happens next?

I am so excited for the Revolution controller but little issues like this worry me.

I hope my explanation made sense, am interested to hear your thoughts.

 

[Kroole]

That's easy. Nintendo could just use an electic shock that stuns (locks up) your muscles, thus you can't move.

 

[Ghost]

Yeah, it wont work, this isnt a new concern, 1up did an article on what would and wouldnt work a while ago, there was a big thread.

 

[Timen]

the player will just always be some allmighty beast who doesn't have any problem at all with beating his opponents to a pulp.

or something like that

 

[antispin]

the obvious answer is that the console will shoot paralysing darts into your eyes

 

[antispin]

there could be force feedback triggered by the sword clash, you know. that's feedback enough. and the controller is FF capable.

 

[Sunski]

The controller could send a rumble, and the onscreen cursor could probably just wait in position until you line backup with it and carry on swinging. There will be a lot of give programmed into the on screen actions.

 

[John Harker]

About the force feedback...

I've heard conflicting reports.

Is there ACTUALLY going to be some kind of rumble or reverse gyration?

I know this WASN'T a feature during the demos when journos got to play, but IGN listed it as a feature of the remote - but some people later said it wasn't to be implemented.

I think the controller NEEDS it - whats the conesenus on its implementation?

 

[123rl]

It definitely needs it otherwise it's going to be unplayable with a lot of games. This is why 3D control is bad. You have no central point (ie the neutral area) and there are no physical boundaries or limits to where the input from the controller ends

 

[Mr_Moogle]

This is why they are called game developers. Its there job to figure this stuff out. If they screw it up badly, Nintendo will be in alot of trouble.

I'm sure sword fighting mechanics are high on their list of priorities while they are developing the new Zelda for Revolution. Nintendo wouldn't make a controller if they couldn't utilize it for their major franchises.

If anything, the Revolution shows that Nintendo is trying to play to their strengths. I'm sure they'll find a way around this.

Nintendo needs an extremely strong launch lineup for their new console. Its absolutely crucial, not just for sales, but to show the third party developers exactly how to implement this new controller. They're gonna have to do better than they did with the DS.

 

[EmSeta]

I guess the easiest thing to do would be giving the player a "magical" sword that cuts through anything. If the opponent blocks the attack, he would be hurled backwards in a bunch of sparks.

 

[Kiriku]

Some sort of force feedback could work as indicator, yeah...but it would still feel kind of awkward seeing your character come to a halt while you're still in your sword attack motion.

 

[antispin]

i think the ideas/thoughts on the amount of physical motion required to play with the controller are greatly exaggerated. it will be a simple wrist flick at most. add FF (and it is a confirmed feature) and you have a system in place. the reverse gyration was a rumour pre-TGS. force feedback is a nintendo-confirmed feature.

 

[Blackace]

while I don't think this will be a problem... the fig.1 in the post is just freaking awesome

 

[Gee]

When i went to the ECTS last year, i also visited a big arcade in London. I remember there was a star wars saber cabinet. The game was about holding the saber in a certain angle to avoid getting ur ass shot or stabbed. Considering the rev controller is capable of more, I think a single player game will work out. Multiplayer however will be a diffrent story.
Reminds me of eyetoy; it would be to easy to cheat in multiplayer.

 

[TheJesusFactor]

This is soo easy to correct. I don't even think it is a problem. There will be certain gameplay modification that will need to be adjusted to compensate for limitations to real life. The main thing to understand is that the RevCon will not solve all problem, but will still give us a much more real gameplay experience, until RevCon 2.

Think of how Soul Caliber works. A full swing (huge circular arc, no wrist flicks) will push the blocking opponent back. Giving time for both player to recover and get their sword in position. If the player miss with his big swing, there will be a window of oppurtunity for the other player to capitalize on by having the attack opponent controllering unresponsive. Small swings (wrist flicks) causes less damage and much hard to use to counter larger swings.

When the player swing with the same arc with the same strength, you can see a sword lock on screen. For this lock you can probably just press the "A" button quickly to break out of it.

 

[PhoenixDark]

There was a rumor awhile ago about the controller using force feedback. This would explain everything, and I believe it; remember the video where the grandfather is fishing with the controller, and he falls back trying to reel it in?

In fact, a site published this and the site went down shortly afterwards, remember?

 

[Gio_CoD]

There was a rumor awhile ago about the controller using force feedback. This would explain everything, and I believe it; remember the video where the grandfather is fishing with the controller, and he falls back trying to reel it in?

In fact, a site published this and the site went down shortly afterwards, remember?

I sincerely doubt the controller would have enough power to really simulate force dynamics. I think it'll rumble, but that's about all the feedback I expect.

 

[Raiden]

Swordfighting? Yeah right Nintendo is going to let us do all the things we dont want to, fishing etc. And then we'll be screaming for 5 years for swordfighting. (pokemon mmorpg etc)

 

[Scrow]

while I don't think this will be a problem... the fig.1 in the post is just freaking awesome

yeah, considering there's no fig.2 :lol

 

[thorns]

I've said this before, the main reason why this controller will be useless for a great variety of games is lack of resistance. Since you are moving your hands freely in air, there will be no resistance from anything at all. Try playing a driving game with a mouse, for example. It is very precise but still driving with keyboard is actually easier..

 

[={<SMOKE>}=]

This will be hard to explain but I'll try.

Lets say you are playing a sword fighting game. You swing your controller through the air and in the game, your sword clashes with your opponent. Like this.

Fig.1

So in the game, your sword is locked in the air with your opponents sword yet because there is no physical reaction on your controller, you have completely followed through in your swinging action and where your controller is now, does not match what is happening on the screen. What happens next?

I am so excited for the Revolution controller but little issues like this worry me.

I hope my explanation made sense, am interested to hear your thoughts.

am i the only one who does NOT want games where you swing the controller to swing your sword? am i the only one who realizes how tedious this would become? where's drinky when you need him? and the original poster has too much time on his hands. where's figure 2?

 

[Wollan]

Maybe every time you parry the enemies sword will bounce off. No sword-grinding.
(Though, I would love to have a lightsaber grinding with Darth Vader)

 

[Grug]

am i the only one who does NOT want games where you swing the controller to swing your sword? am i the only one who realizes how tedious this would become?

Maybe tedium is in the eye of the beholder. Some people may, for example, find hour long Codec conversations tedious.

 

[PhoenixDark]

yeah, considering there's no fig.2 :lol

Consider it done.

Fig. 2

Notice how both players are bending their wrists in order to meet their swords in the air. If this is to be simulation on Nintendo's Revolution system, will players have the abilitiy to swing the controller hard enough to brake their opponent's wrist as he tries to counter yor attack?

 

[urk]

This won't be a problem. Think about how interfaces are designed today. If a characters movement is mapped to an analog stick, you can hold the stick upwards, even if the character is facing a wall. If you were blind, this could pose a problem, but since you can clearly see that your character isn't getting anywhere, you simply adjust.

In the case of the Revolution scenario, your vision and a little force feedback would be enough sensory information to tell you that your swing was blocked. After all, these are games and a little suspension of disbelief is needed.

For a parry, devs could do as has already been suggested and give feedback, or other mechanics could be introduced. There could be a locked swords scenario where you could shove the controller toward the screen to press your opponent or perhaps flick your wrist for a disarm. The possibilites are very open with the Revolution controller. I hope the developers can tap them.

 

[Grug]

Consider it done.

Fig. 2

Notice how both players are bending their wrists in order to meet their swords in the air. If this is to be simulation on Nintendo's Revolution system, will players have the abilitiy to swing the controller hard enough to brake their opponent's wrist as he tries to counter yor attack?

We better be careful, Spon.g will probably put these pics on their website - "First Revolution Screenshots!"

 

[Scrow]

Maybe every time you parry the enemies sword will bounce off. No sword-grinding.
(Though, I would love to have a lightsaber grinding with Darth Vader)

this is what i would imagine too, but it's really up to the developer how they handle that sort of interaction.

 

[Xrenity]

Maybe every time you parry the enemies sword will bounce off. No sword-grinding.
(Though, I would love to have a lightsaber grinding with Darth Vader)[/QUOT]
How would you put any strength behind that?

Maybe the reverse-gyration thing talked about at a site at the time was right. Would be AWESOME. And probably not very probable.

 

[borghe]

this reminds me of how we have a hard time dealing with driving on snow with a control pad when the control pad doesn't get all loose and sloppy.. err wait....

I mean, it reminds me of how we are thrown off when our characters hits a wall but our analog stick doesn't snap to center... err ..no, that's not it..

ok, like how when we move the cursor to the edge of the screen but the mouse keeps going and it confuses....... ok, I give up.

it is called hand eye coordination and our ability to adapt. part of it is up to the developers to compensate for some things, part of it is up to us to be able to adapt and coordinate actions on screen (whatever they may be) with what our hands need to do to respond.

 

[PhoenixDark]

We better be careful, Spon.g will probably put these pics on their website - "First Revolution Screenshots!"

Iwata unveils True Emotion Engine, Sony Threatens Lawsuit

In a stunning announcement, Nintendo president Sataru Iwata revealed that the Revolution's graphics will be powered by an Emotion Engine. With the help of ATI, the Emotion Engine allows photo-realistic graphics no other console has been able to produce. "The Emotion Engine will be essential in making the Revolution appeal to non gamers," Iwata said. "What better way to attract non gamers than to have graphics that look like the non gamers themselves?"

The first title shown seemed to be a new Zelda title; the video was not named before being shown, but according to information given to us by our source last week, the title is indeed the first next generation Zelda game. Using the Revolution controller, players will fence against others in a populated online world. We can't wait to get our hands on it back doors at E3. Make sure to check back with us in May for hands on impressions.

But, Nintendo's announcement was also met with controversy. Sony has filed a lawsuit against the software giant, claming that Nintendo is breaching trademark copyrights by using the term "Emotion Engine."

According to the lawsuit, which ***** tracked down with the help of a high placed source in the law community, Sony is suing Nintendo for more than 3 billion dollars. If they win, Sony would also lay claim to Nintendo's famed IPs, including Mario and Nintendogs. Needless to say, Nintendo plans on fighting these charges. "We aren't ones to back down from a fight," said Jim Merrick, head of Nintendo of Europe's marketing department. "We plan on winning this case, as we won the handheld war."

Needless to say, today was a big day for the gaming world. Stay tuned for all breaking Nintendo news, as ever, right here on *****.

 

[PhoenixDark]

this reminds me of how we have a hard time dealing with driving on snow with a control pad when the control pad doesn't get all loose and sloppy.. err wait....

I mean, it reminds me of how we are thrown off when our characters hits a wall but our analog stick doesn't snap to center... err ..no, that's not it..

ok, like how when we move the cursor to the edge of the screen but the mouse keeps going and it confuses....... ok, I give up.

it is called hand eye coordination and our ability to adapt. part of it is up to the developers to compensate for some things, part of it is up to us to be able to adapt and coordinate actions on screen (whatever they may be) with what our hands need to do to respond.

:lol

 

[mrkgoo]

Something not many people seem to realises, esepcially in terms of a sword fighting game, is whther the software is capable of translating EXACT real life movements into EXACT gaming movements, or whther any such game would simple be reading in a 'gesture' as a command (for example, slice down to make a vertical attack). IF the former is not possible, then the entire discussion about force feedback is moot.

A LOT of people are assuming that the revcon is capable of the former, but that is not within hardware limitation but software. It is perfectly possible to create a game with analogue sticks or mouse control that would simulate such an environment, at least by hardware, but it software capable of keeping up?

If the revcon simply is used for gesture technology, then, well, it would lose a lot of appeal.

 

[Myoclonic Jerk]

This will be hard to explain but I'll try.

Lets say you are playing a sword fighting game. You swing your controller through the air and in the game, your sword clashes with your opponent. Like this.

Fig.1

So in the game, your sword is locked in the air with your opponents sword yet because there is no physical reaction on your controller, you have completely followed through in your swinging action and where your controller is now, does not match what is happening on the screen. What happens next?

I am so excited for the Revolution controller but little issues like this worry me.

I hope my explanation made sense, am interested to hear your thoughts.

Solution: easy, your character is locked, then you switch to a button mashing contest against the other player to win.

 

[borghe]

If the revcon simply is used for gesture technology, then, well, it would lose a lot of appeal.

this goes back to if it will simply be pushing a button in 3d space or if it will actually be tracked movement.

the fact that one of nintendo's most often shown/mentioned implementations is the FPS/gun implementation leads me to believe it is tracked, not simply gestures.

 

[mrkgoo]

this goes back to if it will simply be pushing a button in 3d space or if it will actually be tracked movement.

the fact that one of nintendo's most often shown/mentioned implementations is the FPS/gun implementation leads me to believe it is tracked, not simply gestures.

No, I understand this, what I meant is that a particular move in a swordfighting game is actually using the tracking one-for-one real time freeform, (as most people assume), or just using the tracking to recognise a gesture (swing a figure eight, for example, character on screen performs move X). That is, assume the Revcon tracks all movements in space.

Cool if it was the first, but is software capable of that kind of complexity? I mean, the HARDWARE is capable of it now - controlling a free form sword using an analogue or mouse - yeah it won;t be as natural, but it's certainly possible - but why has noone done it? Is it because it's a concept that doesn't actually work? Or that people haven't conceived of in a workable way? Nearly ALL current games use buttons and sticks in a binary way - to control the binary event of a particular move. Is this a limitation of the current hardware, that Revolution is set to fix? Or is it simply the most intuitive way to have and on screen persona react to a control system?

If it just using the second, then you're just playing Soul Calibur with a gimmick controller.

 

[cvxfreak]

Sword shell FTW!

 

[Gahiggidy]

No, I understand this, what I meant is that a particular move in a swordfighting game is actually using the tracking one-for-one real time freeform, (as most people assume), or just using the tracking to recognise a gesture (swing a figure eight, for example, character on screen performs move X). That is, assume the Revcon tracks all movements in space.

Cool if it was the first, but is software capable of that kind of complexity? I mean, the HARDWARE is capable of it now - controlling a free form sword using an analogue or mouse - yeah it won;t be as natural, but it's certainly possible - but why has noone done it? Is it because it's a concept that doesn't actually work? Or that people haven't conceived of in a workable way? Nearly ALL current games use buttons and sticks in a binary way - to control the binary event of a particular move. Is this a limitation of the current hardware, that Revolution is set to fix? Or is it simply the most intuitive way to have and on screen persona react to a control system?

If it just using the second, then you're just playing Soul Calibur with a gimmick controller.

I don't think fully simulated sword-play would work that well in a game. Actually programming a hit-miss collision system woul dbe very difilcult and in the end not that much more fun than simply programing in a set of 12 or so "gestures". SC4 with such a control would be more fun simply because its more intuitive.

 

[urk]

No, I understand this, what I meant is that a particular move in a swordfighting game is actually using the tracking one-for-one real time freeform, (as most people assume), or just using the tracking to recognise a gesture (swing a figure eight, for example, character on screen performs move X). That is, assume the Revcon tracks all movements in space.

I think you are looking at it from the wrong angle. There is a happy medium between your two extremes.

Mapping control schemes to the controller should be able to afford some pretty intuitive gameplay, but I doubt there is going to be a "motion capture" style of control implemented. It may be more along the lines of angling the control to angle control the camera, rotating to turn a doorknob, slashing vertically and horizontally to attack with a melee weapon (jabbing to stab).

Soul Calibur in it's current form should be played with a standard controller. I think the games that Nintendo are envisioning for use with the new controller are going to fall well outside of what we are accustomed to.

 

[Mefisutoferesu]

If there's vibration then the clashed swords can be a sort of minigame. For instance, swords clash and you end up locked in a power struggle initially the controller will rumble at full capacity (the clash) then die down to a slight rumble (locked in a power struggle) with the rumble reving up or down based on who has the upper hand. SO, if you just keep swinging forward the rumble would ramp up indicating you're the more unstable one and thus more likely to be overpowered. However, if you, say, move the controller forward slowly you the rumble stays ramped down and this indicates you're slowly overpowering your opponent. The rumble then quits after you break the dealock or over power or lose to the opponent.

 

[Suburban Cowboy]

well ya vibration is the most obvious solution.

Zelda is the only game i can see making sword fighting mechanics utilizing the controller. How often to enemies block attacks in zelda anyways (unless they have a shield). So For a true sword-sim, ya it wont be perfect. But for a standard game wishing to give u control of a sword, it wont be too big of an issue, atleast i wouldnt expect it to be

 

[tedtropy]

In an incredibly loosely related matter, remember in Next Gen how they would walk into the inactive holodeck and it'd be about the size of a living room, yet it would render these massive environments when active? How did they not just walk face-first into the (then unapparent) wall when they started moving around?

 

[radioheadrule83]

Ideas for workarounds:

(a) until the sword hits the opponent's blade, moving the remote moves the sword. Once the swords meet,, the rev remembers the pointer co-ordinates as it happens: x+y (and possibly Z, tilt, yaw, whatever)... however much further the player moves the remote from that point, the sword does nothing. To move the blades away from one another, either the opponent must initiate a move away, or the player must return the pointer to the clash-position, and further still - towards the opposite extremity... as though dramatically pulling the blade away from the other blade.

OR... (slightly similar)

(b) once the blades meet, moving the controller any further ceases to move the sword, and only adds tilt to the camera (and/or increments of rumble)... as though struggling to fight the other blade. To unlock the blades, either the other player must move away, or the player must do so himself. Performing a pull-away would tilt the camera back to its original position before moving the sword. It would be disorienting, but it'd make for one kinetic looking sword fight. The sword fighting equivilent of the fist fights in Chronicles of Riddick, Escape from Butcher Bay. So I imagine it working especially well in first person.

 

[acidviper]

LOL if you think you are going to swordfighting with Zelda you are crazy. The gyro shit is only for pulling levers and solving puzzles.

 

[Grug]

LOL if you think you are going to swordfighting with Zelda you are crazy. The gyro shit is only for pulling levers and solving puzzles.

But... but... but the e3 video....

 

[monkeyrun]

That's easy. Nintendo could just use an electic shock that stuns (locks up) your muscles, thus you can't move.

:lol

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Force feedback is a nice aid, but I don't think that gets to the meat of how things on-screen would react to your movement. If I've physically moved my controller further along a path than the on-screen representation is able to go, what happens when I reverse my real world direction? Does it automatically reverse? Does it wait for me to reach back to the correct position before beginning the backward motion to keep the old synchronization?

I don't think there's one good answer. It really reminds me of the touch screen analog controls of Super Mario 64 DS and Rayman DS. In Rayman your circle of movement was stationary, whereas in SM64 if you moved outside of the circle, the circle would move to follow your thumb, creating a new center point.

In an incredibly loosely related matter, remember in Next Gen how they would walk into the inactive holodeck and it'd be about the size of a living room, yet it would render these massive environments when active? How did they not just walk face-first into the (then unapparent) wall when they started moving around?

Holodeck I suppose could use all sorts of "modern" technology to fake a person into not reaching a wall. I suppose the easiest would be to make it like an old game where the character appears to be moving, but it's really the map scrolling under their feet. Constant appropriate shifting of the environment would essentially make the world a treadmill. With multiple people getting far apart I believe it's supposed to be that each person ends up using a subsection of the room, and when they think they're looking at the other person a mile away, they're each just seeing a properly placed hologram to give such an appearance, while they really might be 10 feet apart.

LOL if you think you are going to swordfighting with Zelda you are crazy. The gyro shit is only for pulling levers and solving puzzles.

The same question remains; how should the game react once I've pulled the lever beyond where it's supposed to go?

 

[soundwave05]

Ideas for workarounds:

(a) until the sword hits the opponent's blade, moving the remote moves the sword. Once the swords meet,, the rev remembers the pointer co-ordinates as it happens: x+y (and possibly Z, tilt, yaw, whatever)... however much further the player moves the remote from that point, the sword does nothing. To move the blades away from one another, either the opponent must initiate a move away, or the player must return the pointer to the clash-position, and further still - towards the opposite extremity... as though dramatically pulling the blade away from the other blade.

OR... (slightly similar)

(b) once the blades meet, moving the controller any further ceases to move the sword, and only adds tilt to the camera (and/or increments of rumble)... as though struggling to fight the other blade. To unlock the blades, either the other player must move away, or the player must do so himself. Performing a pull-away would tilt the camera back to its original position before moving the sword. It would be disorienting, but it'd make for one kinetic looking sword fight. The sword fighting equivilent of the fist fights in Chronicles of Riddick, Escape from Butcher Bay. So I imagine it working especially well in first person.

These seem to be reasonable solutions.

I dunno about Zelda but I think someone will have a sword-based fighter close to launch.

Ahem *LucasArts*.

 

[Sunski]

The controller is confirmed to have Rumble built in, but not Force Feedback (Am i rite in saying they are different?)

Someone mentioned how a racing game on this would be crap, but why can't they have that steering wheel attachment and then attach that to a stand. It'd be just like buying a wheel for one of the current consoles except it'd be the normal controller with an attachment.

 

[deadhorse32]

Here is a sample video of a guy playing a sword game on the revolution Here

That shit is HAWT