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[Lazy8s]

sohka88:

Do people use their brains here?

Yes, and they're considering the worse usage of resources that could be better spent someplace else to retool manufacturing plants more for Blu-ray over HD-DVD when HD-DVD already meets the requirement for a next-gen HDTV format and has a storage disadvantage to Blu-ray that's non-critical.

 

[DrGAKMAN]

And what exactly is so "evil" about Sony wanting control? They should have sat back and let a studio aligned with the DVD Forum, that is pusing HD-DVD over BR, get their hands on MGM instead, simply to make you think better of them, because . . . OMG . . . they intend to compete for a new market!!!! Wow, someone get the torches, storm the castle, we can't let such monstrosities persist in this world!!!

I realize Sony has gotta do what they gotta do and this is a cut throat world. But that doesn't mean I gotta like it...I'm not gonna switch to high definition until it's absolutly needed (I'm not rich)...which, since it seems to be up to Sony, is going to be forced upon me and the rest of the market too soon. Let's fix our economy and get HDTV more standerdized before we start forcing people to switch to an all new movie format is all I'm saying. People are still satisfied with their CD's for music and even moreso DVD for movies, but if it were up to Sony and the rest of them we would have to switch formats every 4 or 5 years...sorry if that pisses some of us poor folk off.

And before yet another "tech dude" tells me what I already, yes...I know BR is backwords compatible with DVD. It won't change the fact that BR makers and content providers and retailers will try to push DVD to the side to make room for "the next new thing"!

 

[Ranger X]

I realize Sony has gotta do what they gotta do and this is a cut throat world. But that doesn't mean I gotta like it...I'm not gonna switch to high definition until it's absolutly needed (I'm not rich)...which, since it seems to be up to Sony, is going to be forced upon me and the rest of the market too soon. Let's fix our economy and get HDTV more standerdized before we start forcing people to switch to an all new movie format is all I'm saying. People are still satisfied with their CD's for music and even moreso DVD for movies, but if it were up to Sony and the rest of them we would have to switch formats every 4 or 5 years...sorry if that pisses some of us poor folk off.

And before yet another "tech dude" tells me what I already, yes...I know BR is backwords compatible with DVD. It won't change the fact that BR makers and content providers and retailers will try to push DVD to the side to make room for "the next new thing"!

This post needed to be read twice

 

[DrGAKMAN]

This post needed to be read twice

What did I mis-spell this time?

 

[kaching]

And before yet another "tech dude" tells me what I already, yes...I know BR is backwords compatible with DVD. It won't change the fact that BR makers and content providers and retailers will try to push DVD to the side to make room for "the next new thing"!

You obviously DON'T know it since you're complaining so pitifully about it. You've apparently missed how long DVD and VHS have coexisted side by side...VHS didn't exactly get pushed to the side immediately, so why would you expect DVD to? Much ado about nothing, Gakman.

 

[DCharlie]

"You obviously DON'T know it since you're complaining so pitifully about it. You've apparently missed how long DVD and VHS have coexisted side by side...VHS didn't exactly get pushed to the side immediately, so why would you expect DVD to? Much ado about nothing, Gakman"

A very good point. I don't see DVD production stopping overnight!
but the thing that does worry me a liitle is that we are getting Bluray pretty soon, at 56 gigs, but already Sony are talking about Bluray 200 gig edition, and also looking into Holo discs which would be looking at 1 Terabyte of capacity.

And i don't think those techs are that far away - i'd have thought Holo discs would be out before Bluray really takes off.

 

[RuGalz]

Do we really need 200g? ...

 

[border]

I don't see what there is to cry about. BluRay machines will still read your DVDs, if that's all that you want to buy. Having a BluRay-capable console means that you will be able to switch to HD media anytime within 5-6 years after buying a PS3. I imagine that HD television sets will be pretty affordable somewhere within that time range.

Hollywood will go wherever the money is. If there is still a big DVD market for the next decade, then they obviously aren't going to stop putting movies on DVD just to force you to switch. Hollywood is not interested in forcing people to adopt a next generation format, they are interested in money. Just look at how long audio casettes and VHS tapes have been supported.

 

[Ar_]

Well it certainly would be, for gta esque games, mmorps, massive rpgs, massive racing games, and any large game. Highest detail models in next-gen games could easily get pass 100+k, with even larger textures, remember this gen we finally got a decent draw distant next. gen we get to see outrageous LODs, and as you've seen say GT4 it fills the dvd and any massive next-gen game will have a higher number of models whose highest detail version exceeds these GT4 models complexity by at least an order of magnitude.

Today we've levels with 500k+poly sizes(whole level), thanks to next-gen capabilities complexity for highest detail versions(seen at highest LOD, when you got close to that portion of the level) could easily be over 100 times that, I'd wager. Massive Space is a necessity, especially for ambitious games with massive worlds.

I consider RAM the limiting factor, in both current and future games, not disc space.

Want a seamless world, that isn't broken up in inumerable indipendent and often separately loading virtual rooms?
Interactive environments in that world, being able to dig a hole on the ground, burn down a house, move a table, grow a garden, and whatever else?
Many complex and individual AI, with memory and interations?
You need RAM.

Storage space is mostly for polishing audio and video, and next gen consoles may sometimes need even less, replacing more FMVs with real time.
BluRay seems overkill, when most PS2 games don't get close to filling a single layer DVD.

And what exactly is so "evil" about Sony wanting control?

Because is selfish.
At difference of what someone thinks, the ideal of Getting All For Myself And Fuck Everyone Else is nither the model of an ideal society, or Allright Because Everyone Does It.
IP laws should reward innovation only to the extent needed to encourage it and thus archieve the ultimate goal of increasing the common prosperity.
Not to monopolize a market and ammass wealth in a few hands, by royaltyes and stifling the competition with patents.

Edit: I'm not even going to comment on the Immersion VS Sony thread. Talk about lame patents and legal exploits. Makes Sony appear saintly in comparison.

 

[teh_pwn]

"I don't care about FMV. Never have, never will. If it's a good cutscene, great. If it sucks, it sucks. I don't care if a cutscene is FMV or in-game.

The format of the non-interactive portion of an interactive form of entertainment just doesn't matter to me, since it's so trivial."

Congradulations. Just because you don't want it doesn't mean other people don't.


PC games take around 5 GB compressed now. DVDs don't cut it in terms of capacity, and speed. Blue Ray is faster than DVDs and this will be needed.

To the people that are asking if any PS2 games take more than a DVD....you're totally missing the point. Do PS2 games have video in 720p? Do you realize how much space 720p takes up compared to 480i? It is a hell of a lot more. That's the whole reason why BR is being made for movies because a DVD could only hold 20-30 minutes.

 

[aaaaa0]

DVDs don't cut it in terms of capacity, and speed. Blue Ray is faster than DVDs and this will be needed.

Strictly speaking, this isn't true yet.

The current BD ROM spec is 54 mbit/s, which is about the same as a about a 4-6x DVDROM drive. DVD ROMs are up to 16x.

We don't know what speed BDROM will be up to by the time PS3 releases, but right NOW, it's not faster than DVD.

 

[Panajev2001a]

DVD ROMs are up to 16x.

I heard BAD BAD stories about DVD over 12x.

.

 

[Ranger X]

Gak you didn't mispell something. I was serious, it's just that i sooo agree with the post you did.

 

[GaimeGuy]

"I don't care about FMV. Never have, never will. If it's a good cutscene, great. If it sucks, it sucks. I don't care if a cutscene is FMV or in-game.

The format of the non-interactive portion of an interactive form of entertainment just doesn't matter to me, since it's so trivial."

Congradulations. Just because you don't want it doesn't mean other people don't.


PC games take around 5 GB compressed now. DVDs don't cut it in terms of capacity, and speed. Blue Ray is faster than DVDs and this will be needed.

To the people that are asking if any PS2 games take more than a DVD....you're totally missing the point. Do PS2 games have video in 720p? Do you realize how much space 720p takes up compared to 480i? It is a hell of a lot more. That's the whole reason why BR is being made for movies because a DVD could only hold 20-30 minutes.

Look, all I'm saying is that people are so obsessed with cutscenes in games, when that is not what makes games great. It's non-interactive, and the point of games is to be an interactive form of media. Now, I'm not saying that graphics nor cutscenes suck, but I think there should be more focus on the interactive aspects of a game than the non interactive ones, since that' what makes games games. Interactivity.

MrPing explained the reason for me saying "Do we really need 54 GB games?" perfectly: We're nowhere NEAR 54 GB ATM in games. We're just now surpassing 10 GB, and that's in uncompressed data. With compression techniques, we're around 5-7 GB max, currently. What good would a 54 GB disk do for the industry, when most games aren't 10% of that, now?

"I think more space will at least make life easier for developers. Next-gen, we will have higher quality graphics, which in turn means developers will use higher quality textures for example, which will take up more space. Probably not as much as 54 GB, but perhaps more than 8-9 GB at times."

Ok, um, you do realize that currently, the rate of technological growth and the current methods of development are resulting in higher development costs and development times as the technology increases? If the next gen systems continue this trend, games will be more expensive than they ever have been to develop, and will take longer to make, too.

Bigger doesn't necessarily make it better for devs.

 

[DrGAKMAN]

Hey...I'm not against BR per say. If it gives games a higher content capacity and faster data flow then bring it on! But if they (Sony) are trying to make BR the "next DVD" as a selling point for PS3 then I hope they fall flat on their face.

 

[P90]

Hey...I'm not against BR per say. If it gives games a higher content capacity and faster data flow then bring it on! But if they (Sony) are trying to make BR the "next DVD" as a selling point for PS3 then I hope they fall flat on their face.

Is bluRay Betamax II? Or will that be UMDs?

 

[Bizarro Sun Yat-sen]

Yeah, the real limiting factor for next-generation game development will be time and money. Games that push the hardware to its limits will be few and far between, and the rest won't look drastically more detailed than current-generation games because their developers simply won't have the budget for that.

 

[teh_pwn]

"We're nowhere NEAR 54 GB ATM in games. We're just now surpassing 10 GB, and that's in uncompressed data. With compression techniques, we're around 5-7 GB max, currently. What good would a 54 GB disk do for the industry, when most games aren't 10% of that, now?"

Why did PS2 use DVDs over CDs when at the time most PSone games weren't more than one cd?

Furthermore, again these new systems will have 720 p video. You can only fit like 20-30 minutes of that video on DVDs.

 

[Go Go Ackman!]

Because it is selfish.

HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

 

[Go Go Ackman!]

Because it is selfish.

sorry, double post

 

[Fafalada]

BluRay seems overkill, when most PS2 games don't get close to filling a single layer DVD.

Er, so would it be better to have situation like in PC market where games are closing in on limits of DVD capacity right now, and they STILL ship on CDs because of PC market's backwardness in that area?
When PSOne shipped, there was no reason for CDs either, most games didn't even fill 16MB cards back then, let alone require 30-40x more capacity...
Same story repeated with PS2, obviously...
And to a somewhat smaller extent but still, with XBox (which made DVD9 mandatory).

Console life span is at least 5 years, with Sony consoles going towards 10 - the format should be sufficient for more then just the launch month. :|

And besides, there's such a thing as having options - drive does support multiple formats.
A number of early PS2 games still used CD, because that's all they really needed. But if the extra space was really so redundant, there would be no DVD games back then (yet there were, even launch titles), and certainly CD games wouldn't have been phased out completely within first 3 years.
So if some early PS3 titles don't need BRD storage(or perhaps need to cut costs), then they don't have to use it...

 

[hirokazu]

aye, while i'm a little annoyed that my DVD collection will become obselete in maybe 6 years time as they all get re-released on whatever becomes the dominant format, with more extra features than ever (and HD-TV support), i kinda welcome the move to a new format...

the DVD format has reached its limitations, both for games and for video, and it is quite apparent - the way the subtitles are handled sucks, IMO (though it doesn't seem like they care about that), and LotR not being able to fit on one disc, as well as the fact that it only does 480i/p...

that's why i'm an avid supporter of Blu-ray, its much more future-proof than HD-DVD is, i can't imagine HD-DVD being able to fit much extra features on one disc if they put HD video on it, and they'd have to go with multiple disc "Special Editions" again, much like DVD. personally, i'd much rather prefer it if everything was on the one disc. as people have pointed out, 54GB may seem like a heck of a lot now, but will it be, in, say 4-6 years time? i mean, 7 years ago, i lived with a 1.6GB HDD, nowadays, i wonder i could've survived with 60GB, let alone 1.6GB...

if you ask me, if HD-DVD becomes the dominant and mainstream format, there would probably be more format changes than if Blu-ray was - i don't think HD-DVD has enough storage space to be very good at being future-proof, and before long, we'd need another format to satisfy our needs...

and those who say they don't like the big companies forcing new formats down our throats, IMO, its the only way for consumers to adopt new formats - usually the early birds and tech heads jump on board the bandwagon real early, but it takes a hell of a long time to get the majority of the population to get into it, without forcing it upon us, it'd take forever...

especially about waiting till most people got into HDTV, the thing is, it seems more like the video medium and its capabilities that encouraging people to buy HDTV sets and such, not the other way round, if we were to wait for HDTV to become mainstream before introducing new formats, it'd take a long time for people to snap it up - if they don't see much advantages in adopting to it, they simply won't. you can see this in Australia, HDTV has been available for almost 2 years now, but hardly anyone has adopted, the huge, vast majority are happy with analog TV as it is - however, widescreen TVs are taking off real well since most people have DVD players now and would like to watch them in widescreen (same is the case with surround sound systems).