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Sony's official policy on two-dimensional games
- Thread starter Porridge
- Start date
HomerSimpson-Man
Member
Er, Viewtiful Joe and Super Smash Bros. aren't using 2D graphics, they are polygonal and not sprite based using a side scrolling viewpoint.
Long live Xbox Live Arcade!! Welcome home 2D!!
This no 2D shit is fucked up. Konami had to threaten to be allowed to bring SotN!!!! It's possibly the best PS1 game!!! At least 2D PS1 games are still playable, the 3D stuff is so dated as to make my eyes bleed and my graphics whore alarms go berzerk.
2D should NEVER DIE, and a major BBBBBBZZZZZZZZZ on Sony for trying to say so.
This no 2D shit is fucked up. Konami had to threaten to be allowed to bring SotN!!!! It's possibly the best PS1 game!!! At least 2D PS1 games are still playable, the 3D stuff is so dated as to make my eyes bleed and my graphics whore alarms go berzerk.
2D should NEVER DIE, and a major BBBBBBZZZZZZZZZ on Sony for trying to say so.
SolidSnakex
Member
JoDark said:
You might want to give that major BBBBBZZZZ to consumers too. They're the ones that aren't buying them.
ArcadeStickMonk
Member
Has somebody brought up the distinction between 2D graphics and 2D gameplay in this thread yet?
HomerSimpson-Man
Member
ArcadeStickMonk said:
Does mine count?
Eh if theres anybody to blame for the demise of WD, its WD themselves and not Sony.
Don't get me wrong, I appreciated the service WD did because if it wasn't for them I couldn't have had certain titles, however you have to look at the flipside of the coin.
Look at this, but the games WD published were nothing but nitch games that sold to nothing but 1,000 people. With the money that went into translating, dubbing even the special packages, the cost was bound to catch up with them. I mean if Vic is expecting to net say $200 million on a game thats only going to sell to like 1,000 people, Vic was obviously living in a dream world.
Vic is a cool guy like I said for the work he have done, but in the end he's being nothing but another greedy prick that wanted too much for very little.
As for SNKP, I'm kinda glad Sony really made things tough for them. I love the KOF and Samurai Spirits games, but I'm not going to spend $50 on bare-boned low-budget games, particullary those taken from ancient hardware like the AES. Maybe if they produced on a $1 million budget, but a game that probably cost $50,000 to make, theres no friggin way I'm shelling out $50.
In the end though, I agree with Sony full-on about this policy and hope they really make even tough with the PS3.
Alot of you Sony-hating pricks seem to forget that this is a BUSINESS and Sony is doing nothing but looking out for their business. In the face of something like the Xbox, Sony has to make the PS2 look attractive from all points. Allowing a bunch of low-budget to develop titles at premium prices is only sending bad flags. Again, this is a BUINESS and if you was in Sony's shoes you know you've done the same thing.
btw, even Microsoft has a policy in place too combat the rash of PS2 ports the Xbox is getting. Its quite interesting Microsoft seem to have expanded on this with the 360
Don't get me wrong, I appreciated the service WD did because if it wasn't for them I couldn't have had certain titles, however you have to look at the flipside of the coin.
Look at this, but the games WD published were nothing but nitch games that sold to nothing but 1,000 people. With the money that went into translating, dubbing even the special packages, the cost was bound to catch up with them. I mean if Vic is expecting to net say $200 million on a game thats only going to sell to like 1,000 people, Vic was obviously living in a dream world.
Vic is a cool guy like I said for the work he have done, but in the end he's being nothing but another greedy prick that wanted too much for very little.
As for SNKP, I'm kinda glad Sony really made things tough for them. I love the KOF and Samurai Spirits games, but I'm not going to spend $50 on bare-boned low-budget games, particullary those taken from ancient hardware like the AES. Maybe if they produced on a $1 million budget, but a game that probably cost $50,000 to make, theres no friggin way I'm shelling out $50.
In the end though, I agree with Sony full-on about this policy and hope they really make even tough with the PS3.
Alot of you Sony-hating pricks seem to forget that this is a BUSINESS and Sony is doing nothing but looking out for their business. In the face of something like the Xbox, Sony has to make the PS2 look attractive from all points. Allowing a bunch of low-budget to develop titles at premium prices is only sending bad flags. Again, this is a BUINESS and if you was in Sony's shoes you know you've done the same thing.
btw, even Microsoft has a policy in place too combat the rash of PS2 ports the Xbox is getting. Its quite interesting Microsoft seem to have expanded on this with the 360
ArcadeStickMonk
Member
Hey, I's just checking, y'know? Making sure. Seeing if I could save myself the time.HomerSimpson-Man said:
You money.
HomerSimpson-Man
Member
ArcadeStickMonk said:
Still I don't know if my simple post is enoughly detailed, it sort of implies a bit.
ArcadeStickMonk
Member
Well how 'bout this:
How 'bout we work together to produce a statement that both outlines and highlights the differences bewteen 2D graphics and 2D gameplay, just in case some yokel skims through here and tries to bring it up a third time.
How 'bout we work together to produce a statement that both outlines and highlights the differences bewteen 2D graphics and 2D gameplay, just in case some yokel skims through here and tries to bring it up a third time.
ArcadeStickMonk said:
Of course theres a distinction. Whether your talking about Half-Life 2, Gran Turismo, or just about any 3D game, its going to feature 2D art assets -- possibily for background art or simpily textures.
As for 2D gameplay, theres really no such thing. I know theres side-scrolling gameplay, but not 2D- gameplay. Sadly though, people seem to have have this notion that...
spirites and handdrawn game art - 2D games
BTW, I do digital art, so this is how I know this stuff
What matters is that consumers are given an option. 2D is not dead, was never dead, and will never die. Are 2D sprites state of the art? Not necessarily, but that still isn't the point. If you think that form of presenting a game will ever go away then you're a silly, ignorant gamer
Of course it's a business. Considering that the majority of gamers prefer 3D visuals, I don't think any of the 2D games released in the past 5 years were ever mass-produced. So with that said, where's the problem? Why can't Sony let all groups have what they want?
How can anyone say WD is only to blame for their demise? WD depended on Sony for the approval of all games. They were denied that approval for several titles, including a remake/port of Sega Saturn's DRAGON FORCE.
I ask north american Sony supporters this: They control what you play, unless you speak fluent Japanese. How do you feel about that?
edit: so does microsoft and nintendo, but sony, being the market leader, it's just a little more serious to me. the level of influence and all. more games are made for sony
Of course it's a business. Considering that the majority of gamers prefer 3D visuals, I don't think any of the 2D games released in the past 5 years were ever mass-produced. So with that said, where's the problem? Why can't Sony let all groups have what they want?
How can anyone say WD is only to blame for their demise? WD depended on Sony for the approval of all games. They were denied that approval for several titles, including a remake/port of Sega Saturn's DRAGON FORCE.
I ask north american Sony supporters this: They control what you play, unless you speak fluent Japanese. How do you feel about that?
edit: so does microsoft and nintendo, but sony, being the market leader, it's just a little more serious to me. the level of influence and all. more games are made for sony
Agent Icebeezy
Welcome beautful toddler, Madison Elizabeth, to the horde!
I love the 2D gaming XBLA is getting.
ArcadeStickMonk
Member
Any game that limits you to moving in only 2 dimensions (IE: Up\Down & Left\Right) can be classified as having 2D gameplay. They can feature graphics and worlds rendered entirely in 3D, but their gameplay does not require it.Andrew2 said:
Viewtiful Joe, as my partner in acronyms, HSM, mentioned, is a very fine example.
Sidescollers are indeed the lion's share of these sort of games. Shoot-em-ups, brawlers, and fighters too.
You're forgetting that SCEI & SCEE allow 2D games while SCEA is the one being the hardass on 2D. How is having a diverse library of games ranging from excellent to good to mediocre to bad is sending a bad flag when allowing a few full price low-budget games, which a number of them are good games, onto the shelves? If I were in Sony's shoes, I would not follow SCEA's current business policies. There are much better business strategies to execute.Andrew2 said:
Porridge said:
Tell me this, but if Atari re-released pong on the 360(no-remake) and they was asking for $60 for that game alone, would you consider that a price you'll want to pay? Maybe if it was sold for $00.99 i'll gladly, but $60 for a game thats just as ancient. In the end this where Sony is trying to get with the budget prices.
Porridge said:
How many years did WD spend on translating and dubbing Growlancer? If it was 3, then thats alot of money spent on localizing a game thats only going to sell 1,000 copies. Now much money do you think they're going to make on that 1,000 copies sold? Not enough to keep them afloat.
Alex Anderson
Member
This here is a completely realistic scenario.
Isn't there already a 300 page thread here about WD's demise? I think WD's ability to take more time translating games than the original people did to make them is what led to their failure, truth be told.
Back to the original point of SCEA being anti-2D zealots, I still don't see why their logic is unjustified. As already repeated in this thread alone (but will need to be repeated until the end of time for certain people), there are more 2D games, either in terms of graphics or gameplay, for US PS2 than XB and GC, and for the most part they all sold like shit. Did everyone in this thread buy PS2 Y's and Atelier Iris? I sure didn't.
Back to the original point of SCEA being anti-2D zealots, I still don't see why their logic is unjustified. As already repeated in this thread alone (but will need to be repeated until the end of time for certain people), there are more 2D games, either in terms of graphics or gameplay, for US PS2 than XB and GC, and for the most part they all sold like shit. Did everyone in this thread buy PS2 Y's and Atelier Iris? I sure didn't.
Shouta
Member
Andrew2 said:
It took them about 2-3 years as I recall. They had Growlanser II done a year to year and a half prior to releasing Generations but because Sony forced them to bundle it with Growlanser III after they had finished Growlanser II, they had to shelf it until III was done. So uh yeah, SCEA is to blame on that one. Also, Growlanser Generations sold about 58,700 copies so if WD had done it separately, you could expect them to have sold more.
Kabuki Quantum Lover
Member
Isn't SCEA as we know it dead with the WWS deal?
"blah blah sony's not oking imaginative games"
FUCKING BUMPY TROT IS COMING OUT HERE. technic beat, the nis titles, graffiti kingdom was even published by scea themselves! i think it's more that SCEA wants to enforce budget pricing for the games which isn't necessarily a bad thing; as many others have stated, an ass-old version of king of fighters shouldn't be 49.99.
FUCKING BUMPY TROT IS COMING OUT HERE. technic beat, the nis titles, graffiti kingdom was even published by scea themselves! i think it's more that SCEA wants to enforce budget pricing for the games which isn't necessarily a bad thing; as many others have stated, an ass-old version of king of fighters shouldn't be 49.99.
HomerSimpson-Man
Member
typo said:
Similiar question to my first post, I too would like to know how all this is handled now.
SolidSnakex
Member
typo said:
Sort of I guess. The head of SCEWW is Phil Harrison who's been the vice pres of SCEE.
What kind of image does SCEA want? Licensed crap and sequels on shelves is a good image in SCEA's eyes? What SCEA needs over MS is games on PS2 shelves and not on XBOX shelves. Having JP 2D games on the PS2 does not hurt Sony's image in face of MS and the Xbox. Sony already has some technically great games but more importantly Sony has the more asthetically appealing games cause of the JP developers' emphasis on art direction over technical showoff in the case of Western developers.Andrew2 said:
2D sucks, is ancient and retarded. You get worse animation and less freedom. Fuck it. Anything done in 2D can be done in 3D. The same doesn't work in the other direction. Sony's policies aren't a big deal. If gamers wanted 2D, it wouldn't be an issue at all. 2D gaming deserves to die. I haven't bought a 2D game since SFA on the PS1, and I don't miss it in the least. PEACE.
I don't think SCEA's policy isn't against 2D games, it's against ports of older games. Regarding those, I think they aren't allowed to be sold for full price on their own, they have to be bundled or budget titles. There isn't exactly strong evidence for the alleged 2D ban.
The one problem with the "It's a business" line is that while corporations do have to look out for their shareholders, it's not a good thing nor is it something sane non-stock-holding people should be supporting when a company does so at the expense of the consumer. You know, the fundamental issue in the whole RIAA/MPAA ordeal. After all, it's a business, and peddling manufactured pop idols at fixed prices and suing grandmothers is just the way it goes.
The Take Out Bandit
Member
2D game "developers" (It's in quotes because there's rarely any sort of development these days, just farming out the same tired shit generation after generation, or maybe with a new sprite if you're lucky, or in the case of SNK just re-touching and re-hashing existing sets of sprites).
Want to make 2D appealing to consumers again?
- High res that shit!
- Include attractive play modes, such as on-line.
That is most likely a huge factor in some of SCEA's decisions. SNK consistently removed on-line play from it's PS2 titles, and Capcom, when releasing them in the US. Okay then. Bundle that shit, or release it at a reduced price!
2D game farms on TV consoles have nobody to blame but themselves. The last bastion of quality original 2D gaming content is the fuckin' GBA. New 2D games are still coming out, and it's not just KoF'94 fresh for 2K6 you suckas!
Want to make 2D appealing to consumers again?
- High res that shit!
- Include attractive play modes, such as on-line.
That is most likely a huge factor in some of SCEA's decisions. SNK consistently removed on-line play from it's PS2 titles, and Capcom, when releasing them in the US. Okay then. Bundle that shit, or release it at a reduced price!
2D game farms on TV consoles have nobody to blame but themselves. The last bastion of quality original 2D gaming content is the fuckin' GBA. New 2D games are still coming out, and it's not just KoF'94 fresh for 2K6 you suckas!
New 2D games are still coming out on the PS2 as well, so there's not even any need to resort to handheld gaming to find the content.
In fact I'd bet the SCEA people would view any increased support of handheld games in the name of 2D support as a basis for them to shun it. After all, if there's anything you're going to distance yourself from...
In fact I'd bet the SCEA people would view any increased support of handheld games in the name of 2D support as a basis for them to shun it. After all, if there's anything you're going to distance yourself from...
The Take Out Bandit
Member
Oh no, I'm not saying there are no 2D games on the PS2. Just that the majority of the ones I've been buying lately is shit I've purchased multiple times (Capcom Classics, SFCollection) in my gaming lifetime.
We need some new stuff badly. And for the most part, that seems to be coming out on the GBA.
But feel free to point me in the direction of some cool 2D action adventure games on the PS2. ^_^
We need some new stuff badly. And for the most part, that seems to be coming out on the GBA.
But feel free to point me in the direction of some cool 2D action adventure games on the PS2. ^_^
Some random unsorted thoughts.
Back in the NES days, Nintendo used to try and judge "gameplay", while weeding out the undesireables. Third parties thought this was arrogant and presumptuous. So when Sony came into power they decided to judge the "graphics", and set up their Performance Analyzer to measure how hard you're hammering the CPU, among other things. Sony's way seems more logical and impartial than the Nintendo of old, but why the heck do they need to weed people out? Diversity was one of the reasons Sony beat Nintendo in the first place.
SCE and SCEA are different, and SCEA is seen as being more "anti-2D" because they've rejected projects that were approved by SCE, but they haven't approved any projects that ceased to exist because SCE killed them.
As far as I heard, when Iga first came to the Castlevania team, SotN had been in development for several years, but development had stalled because SCE was refusing to approve the game, and Toru Hagihara had given up, saying he didn't have the energy for the "political BS" required to get them to give them permission to make SotN on the PSX. Iga was told that if he managed to convince SCE to approve the game, then the game would be back on, and he'd have a team to join. This "accept SotN or lose MGS" threat seems like it would be regarding SCEA.
The existence of 2D games doesn't negate the existence of an anti-2D attitude. Sony is not made of magic elves who become powerless when you discover their weakness.
There was some sort of dustup a few years ago, where some anonymous developers started complaining that Sony (I'm not sure which one) would approve something on one day, and then cancel it on the next, recklessly flushing development efforts down the toilet. Sony's response was supposedly to send a letter out saying "don't be in the lower 50% and you'll be fine" and "keep 2D games the hell off our system, even if we tell you they're okay."
Back in the NES days, Nintendo used to try and judge "gameplay", while weeding out the undesireables. Third parties thought this was arrogant and presumptuous. So when Sony came into power they decided to judge the "graphics", and set up their Performance Analyzer to measure how hard you're hammering the CPU, among other things. Sony's way seems more logical and impartial than the Nintendo of old, but why the heck do they need to weed people out? Diversity was one of the reasons Sony beat Nintendo in the first place.
SCE and SCEA are different, and SCEA is seen as being more "anti-2D" because they've rejected projects that were approved by SCE, but they haven't approved any projects that ceased to exist because SCE killed them.
As far as I heard, when Iga first came to the Castlevania team, SotN had been in development for several years, but development had stalled because SCE was refusing to approve the game, and Toru Hagihara had given up, saying he didn't have the energy for the "political BS" required to get them to give them permission to make SotN on the PSX. Iga was told that if he managed to convince SCE to approve the game, then the game would be back on, and he'd have a team to join. This "accept SotN or lose MGS" threat seems like it would be regarding SCEA.
The existence of 2D games doesn't negate the existence of an anti-2D attitude. Sony is not made of magic elves who become powerless when you discover their weakness.
There was some sort of dustup a few years ago, where some anonymous developers started complaining that Sony (I'm not sure which one) would approve something on one day, and then cancel it on the next, recklessly flushing development efforts down the toilet. Sony's response was supposedly to send a letter out saying "don't be in the lower 50% and you'll be fine" and "keep 2D games the hell off our system, even if we tell you they're okay."
SCEA's policy is so ass-backwards its not even funny. Especially since ESPGaluda, Mushihime-sama, and Metal Slug 3 are much better than like 99% of all US released PS2 games. I can't think of too many positives about MS either, but they seemed to have at least accepted SNK into their wings.
Ninja Scooter
Member
:lol people acting like Sony is killing 2d gaming. What's killing it is that nobody buys that shit anymore and its seen as inferior by most of the gaming population. Its like black and white movies. 2d gaming is dead and not coming back, get over it.
Merlin said:
I'm sure the fact that producing high resolution sprites and backgrounds has absolutely nothing to do with it, as well as the ability of developers to reuse sprites that were originally drawn in low-res.
Seriously, this Sony doesn't allow 2d shit is stupid. It may have been an old policy that they adopted for a period of time, but looking at the many 2d titles on both the PSX and PS2, that policy obviously wasn't as strongly enforced as some seem to claim. Did not the PS2 get Alien Hominid, Growlanswer Generations, Marvel vs. Capcom 2, Atelier Iris among quite a few other titles IN America?
Some PS 2d titles off the top of my head: the Megaman X's, Tales of Destiny, Tales of Eternia, Wild Arms, Alundra, Castlevania: SOTN, Tomba, Lunar: SSS & EB, Arc the Lad Collection, Star Ocean II, Saga Frontier I & II, Persona II Suikoden I & II, & Legend of Mana. Surely the 2d nazis were at work on the PSX.
Isn't Sony allowing Valkyrie Profile to come out on PSP. Hell isn't SONY making Loco Roco, a 2d title for the system?