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[badboy78660]

https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/09/if-youre-stabbed-or-shot-hailing-a-lyft-may-be-better-than-calling-911/

Amid air raids, it’s wise to "keep calm and carry on." When ablaze, certainly "stop, drop, and roll." And in the case of a stabbing or shooting, it may be best to "scoop and run." At least, that’s the takeaway from a new study in JAMA Surgery.

A mad dash to the hospital in a private ride—the scoop and run—may be better for survival than waiting for emergency responders, Johns Hopkins researchers report. In fact, stabbing and gunshot victims who caught their own lift to the hospital were 62 percent less likely to die than those who called for an ambulance.

The finding fits with the obvious fact that time is vital to trauma victims. But slicing deeper, it suggests that for those with such “penetrating injuries,” sophisticated prehospital interventions are of limited value. It may just be all about timing. Thus, healthcare systems may better serve their communities by adopting “scoop and run” over “stay and stabilize"-type policies for these trauma patients.

“Private vehicle transportation to a trauma center represents perhaps the most basic form of prehospital care, where no intervention is performed and only transportation is provided,” the authors write. “In essence, private vehicle transport is a pure example of the 'scoop and run' approach to prehospital trauma care.”

For the study, the Hopkins researchers compared transport methods within urban trauma systems to see if there was a perk to a private ride. From more than 2 million national trauma patient records, the researchers picked out a little more than 100,000 that involved gunshot and stabbing wounds between 2010 and 2012. Altogether, those patients were treated at 298 hospital systems that are within the 100 most populous urban centers in the US.

The researchers looked at survival rates prior to hospital discharge for each patient and came up with a model of the data. They accounted for a variety of factors, most importantly injury severity, as well as heart rate, blood pressure, age, sex, race/ethnicity, and insurance status.

Trip tolls

The patients in the study sample were 87 percent male. Black and Hispanic patients were more likely to arrive at a trauma center in a private vehicle, while whites were more likely to show up in an ambulance. Patients with stab wounds were more likely to take a private vehicle than those with gunshot wounds.

With the data adjusted for death risks, the researchers found that trauma victims who arrived in a private vehicle were 62 percent less likely to die than similarly injured patients who arrived in an ambulance. Splitting the injury types, those with gunshot wounds were 55 percent less likely to die, and those with stab wounds were 68 percent less likely to die if they arrived in a private vehicle. The association held up for all but the most minor injuries.

The study has limitations. For one thing, the records don’t include transit time for those arriving by private vehicle. So it’s impossible to compare transit speeds directly and determine if they are the sole or largest factor accounting for the difference in survival. That said, the authors argue that private rides are “unlikely” to take any longer than using emergency medical services, which involves waiting for responders to arrive and receiving prehospital care.

And of course, the data is only for these severe types of trauma: gunshot and stab wounds. Survival rates for other conditions and types of trauma may not benefit from private rides. Those include conditions that could benefit from prehospital treatments, such as CPR or defibrillation.

But in all, the researchers conclude that there is a clear link between catching a lift to the hospital and a lowered risk of death from gunshot and stab wounds. They call for more research into whether all health systems should adopt “scoop and run” policies for these patients.

“The goal of trauma systems is to deliver optimal care to injured patients,” they conclude. An important part of accomplishing this is determining what constitutes optimal care in each trauma system because it may be different.”

 

[Beartruck]

Well yeah, having someone drive you to a hospital is probably faster than waiting 20 minutes for an ambulance and then driving there.

 

[Oppo]

uh. do they mean "scoop" as in, scoop your guts up and run?

no way a private ride is faster than an ambulance in the city. even with arrival time (which is much shorter), the ability to blast through traffic is sort of key i would think.

 

[Sinfamy]

uh. do they mean "scoop" as in, scoop your guts up and run?

No, like in Baskin Robbins.

 

[FyreWulff]

uh. do they mean "scoop" as in, scoop your guts up and run?

no way a private ride is faster than an ambulance in the city. even with arrival time (which is much shorter), the ability to blast through traffic is sort of key i would think.

It makes sense because fire stations are not in the same place as the hospitals. The transportation time even with traffic lights from your point to the hospital could be shorter than the ambulance backtracking to your location and then going to the hospital

 

[Frustrated_Grunt]

There's a ton of left turns and red lights from my house to the hospital, I don't think I could deal with the stress of fighting traffic while someone is bleeding out.

 

[Kyuur]

Sounds like a new opportunity for Uber.

 

[Pestilence11]

It makes sense because fire stations are not in the same place as the hospitals. The transportation time even with traffic lights from your point to the hospital could be shorter than the ambulance backtracking to your location and then going to the hospital

This.

You could potentially be at the hospital before an ambulance even arrived to get you from where the incident occurred. Plus because of the urgency, it's possible you can bend the traffic rules a bit if the roads aren't busy, like late at night.

 

[BrhysH]

I work for a paramedic service and I can tell you I'd much rather ride in a fully stocked ambulance if I was injured that badly.

 

[Fulminator]

I wonder if there could ever be some sort of satellite ambulance system, in which the hospital has a bunch of cars (self driving would be best) that always follow a certain route in their respective radiuses, that you could call and then it could turn a siren on and sort through traffic

Sort of like a medical Uber except the cars are always on the road and each car or a few cars that drive around in a limited area so they can get to anyone in that area relatively quickly

Probably would be a bitch to implement though and would cost a shit ton of money, not to mention fuel

 

[Oppo]

It makes sense because fire stations are not in the same place as the hospitals. The transportation time even with traffic lights from your point to the hospital could be shorter than the ambulance backtracking to your location and then going to the hospital

i suppose. although i know ambulances rove and have central nodes they circle.

fun fact - in Canada it's often a Tim Hortons because they tend to set up on traffic flow nexus. nexii ?

 

[adamantypants]

This.

You could potentially be at the hospital before an ambulance even arrived to get you from where the incident occurred. Plus because of the urgency, it's possible you can bend the traffic rules a bit if the roads aren't busy, like late at night.

Yep. I'm pretty sure if a cop pulls you over for running a red or speeding and they see a dude bleeding out in your passenger seat, they're not gonna ticket you. Even if they did it's a cheaper ride than an ambulance

 

[KHarvey16]

I work for a paramedic service and I can tell you I'd much rather ride in a fully stocked ambulance if I was injured that badly.

Even if you were more likely to die?

 

[zeemumu]

No, like in Baskin Robbins.

Baskin Robbins always finds out

 

[LegendofJoe]

Sounds like a new opportunity for Uber.

That's what I was thinking. Uber, Lyft, etc. are going to make ridiculous amounts of money once self-driving tech takes off. They will join Google and Apple as mega corporations for sure.

 

[ItIsOkBro]

I work for a paramedic service and I can tell you I'd much rather ride in a fully stocked ambulance if I was injured that badly.

well id much rather survive

 

[Extra Sauce]

Who's gonna want me to bleed profusely inside their car though?

 

[Count Dookkake]

Somebody call the amber lapse.

 

[Gravy Boat]

If you’re in a situation where you’re getting stabbed or shot is it really likely that you also have a friend who is unharmed with his car parked right there to drive you to the hospital right away?

 

[Fergie]

Makes some sense. Time is of the essence with serious injuries.

 

[BrhysH]

Even if you were more likely to die?

Yes, if I was that badly injured there is more potential for other issues to pop up which could not be looked after in a private vehicle.

Say if I started to choke on my own blood, what is that driver going to do?

 

[yepyepyep]

One thing that could be concerning is that driver might panic or make risky decisions trying to get to the hospital in time and could cause an accident as opposed to an ambulance driver who is experienced, knows routes and has the ambulance siren.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

uh. do they mean "scoop" as in, scoop your guts up and run?

It means that instead of performing first aid and then loading you up to immediately load you up and perform what's possible en route to the next hospital.

I think the study only confirms something already know. At least when I was a paramedic couple yeara ago they've already considered ways to adopt that strategy.

 

[KHarvey16]

Uhh yes, if I was that badly injured there is more potential for other issues to pop up which could not be looked after in a private vehicle.

Say if I started to choke on my own blood, what is that driver going to do?

Did you even read what I wrote? This study is saying you’re more likely to die taking an ambulance.

 

[Kettch]

I assume they're taking into account the fact that people who take a private ride to the hospital are likely to be less severely wounded than those who take an ambulance?

 

[KHarvey16]

I assume they're taking into account the fact that people who take a private ride to the hospital are likely to be less severely wounded than those who take an ambulance?

Yup.

 

[KojiKnight]

Well yeah, having someone drive you to a hospital is probably faster than waiting 20 minutes for an ambulance and then driving there.

Never been in a situation where it takes 20 minutes for an ambulance to arrive. Most cases it'd only be about 5 minutes, but then they take time to stabilize you before going (assessing the situation, hooking up IVs, etc) Still wouldn't be anywhere near 20 minutes, but still goes to show that every second counts.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Who's gonna want me to bleed profusely inside their car though?

A blood fetishist.

 

[Protein]

I mean, I would kill over faster too by contemplating my upcoming American hospital bill.

 

[Skellig Gra]

I mean, I would kill over faster too by contemplating my upcoming American hospital bill.

Don't forget the bill from the ambulance service!

 

[ItIsOkBro]

If you’re in a situation where you’re getting stabbed or shot is it really likely that you also have a friend who is unharmed with his car parked right there to drive you to the hospital right away?

yes, if it's the friend that stabbed you

 

[Nappuccino]

Could it simply be that people are more likely to drive themselves if the injury isn't that bad and more likely to call the ambulance when the injury is? Anyone the ambulance needs to pick up would probably be more likely to die in the first place.

Sure the time is probably a factor, but I bet the above is a major factor as well.

 

[ladyluthien]

When I was younger, I had my tonsils removed. A week after the surgery, my stitches busted open and I hemorrhaged. My Dad rushed and drove me to the hospital, he was skipping red lights and driving on the shoulder. I lost too much blood by the time I got to the hospital and still needed a transfusion. The doctors told my parents if they had waited for an ambulance it would have been too late.

 

[KHarvey16]

Could it simply be that people are more likely to drive themselves if the injury isn't that bad and more likely to call the ambulance when the injury is? Anyone the ambulance needs to pick up would probably be more likely to die in the first place.

Sure the time is probably a factor, but I bet the above is a major factor as well.

Study accounts for differences in severity.

 

[BrhysH]

Did you even read what I wrote? This study is saying you’re more likely to die taking an ambulance.

Yes I did and said I'd rather take an ambulance. There are other factors that could arrise that a drive in someones car couldn't save me from anyways.

 

[Mivey]

Depends on the response time of the ambulance. And if you have someone to drive you, driving yourself while having a life threatening wound sounds really dumb.

 

[TripleBee]

Serial Killer ambulance paramedics - secretly taking lives. Hmmm.

 

[KHarvey16]

Yes I did and said I'd rather take an ambulance. There are other factors that could arrise that a drive in someones car couldn't save me from anyways.

You’re not understanding. You are more likely to die taking the ambulance. This isn’t a thought experiment, this was a study performed using data gathered about real incidents of people being hurt. Whatever scenarios you’re thinking of are covered.

 

[Nappuccino]

Study accounts for differences in severity.

My skim read of the article was apparently not the greatest.

 

[kswiston]

How are they breaking down gun and stab wound severity? I can only see the abstract.

 

[BrhysH]

You’re not understanding. You are more likely to die taking the ambulance. This isn’t a thought experiment, this was a study performed using data gathered about real incidents of people being hurt. Whatever scenarios you’re thinking of are covered.

I live in a place with satellie stations, mega stations and a full deployment of ambulances and a low response time.

With thay said... I understand what the study is saying but I would rather have a trained medic pick me up.

Not sure why your still trying to push a private drive on me lol.

 

[KHarvey16]

I live in a place with satellie stations, mega stations and a full deployment of ambulances and a low response time.

With thay said... I understand what the study is saying but I would rather have a trained medic pick me up.

Not sure why your still trying to push a private drive on me lol.

I asked if you’d rather take an ambulance even if it meant you were more likely to die. You said yes, which seems to suggest you didn’t really understand what I was asking.

 

[studyguy]

Friend of mine was stabbed 4 times near his liver and once in the chest that punctured his lung at a beach in Ventura County after some drunk fuck decided to harass us at our bonfire and threatened his girlfriend. Ended up throwing him in the back of my friend's car while holding on to his side to put pressure and gunning it through reds.

Probably the single most terrifying 10 minutes of my life, the dude was joking about how getting stabbed sucks at the start when we threw him in but by the time we got to the hospital he was getting super pale and looked like he was falling unconscious due to bloodloss. Back of the car looked like a murder scene from all the blood.

If we had waited for an ambulance, I'm not entirely convinced he would have made it. Rate of of blood you lose when stabbed is pretty shocking to see in person, especially the kind of sluggish reactions you start to see from the person who goes from alert to half asleep in minutes.

 

[Shao Kahn on the Lawn]

I live in a place with satellie stations, mega stations and a full deployment of ambulances and a low response time.

With thay said... I understand what the study is saying but I would rather have a trained medic pick me up.

Not sure why your still trying to push a private drive on me lol.

Because anecdotal refutations of scientific studies are obnoxious no matter what the context.

 

[ZOONAMI]

uh. do they mean "scoop" as in, scoop your guts up and run?

no way a private ride is faster than an ambulance in the city. even with arrival time (which is much shorter), the ability to blast through traffic is sort of key i would think.

I guarantee you given response time and how fast I would drive in an emergency I would get there faster. If a cop was on my tail I’d keep going until I got to the hospital, and deal with the cops there.

Edit: I guess I would pull over, hope the cops are quick to realize this is an emergency and not a reason to pull their guns on me, and I’d ask for police to escort to the hospital.

 

[siddx]

Plus you get to avoid the $8,000,000,000,000 bill for your three second ambulance ride.

 

[carlsojo]

I live in a place with satellie stations, mega stations and a full deployment of ambulances and a low response time.

With thay said... I understand what the study is saying but I would rather have a trained medic pick me up.

Not sure why your still trying to push a private drive on me lol.

Nurse here.. I'm with you.

Wish I could read the actual study but I need a subscription.

 

[Pesmerga00]

I would imagine that this skews heavily, depending on how rural of an area the injury took place. An ambulance could get through heavy traffic faster, but someone driving from the suburbs with a car could be faster.

 

[Muskieratboi]

And now all I can think of is:

http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/DocWagon

DocWagon: Medical Attention in 10 minutes, or it's free!

 

[Kyle549]

EMT here.

What this fails to account for is the fact that people who go on their own to the hospital tend to have less severe injuries than those with more substantial injuries (e.g. shot to the leg vs shot to the chest) - so it stands to reason that they would have a greater degree of survivability.

Also what this does not account for is that not all ERs are trauma centers. I'm in a city where this is the case. This study only mentions trauma centers, so while all ERs have to meet certain criteria to be an ER, but a trauma center is much better able to assist patients with serious penetrating trauma. So, if you self-extricate and you end up at a non-trauma center - you're not going to have the same level of resources that you would with an ambulance bringing you to the most appropriate ER.