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[NecrosaroIII]

I feel like the reason Star Wars is so popular is because most people aren't familiar with the stories that influenced it, or what has come after. But the world building in Star Wars is lacking.

- There is a lack of emphasis on the alien cultures. Aliens are there to be "exotic" or "weird", but there isn't anything underneath that.
- The factions are ideologically empty. What does the Empire stand for? First Order? What do they rebel alliance want, except freedom?
- Jedi philosophy is confusing and often contradictory.
- Ship design is hit or miss. X-Wings are pretty boring, but TIE fighters are cool.

As much as the Prequel Trilogy sucks, it definitely handled world building better than the OT did. And MUCH better than the Sequel Trilogy did, which pretty much was written by people who didn't care about the importance of lore and worldbuilding and so pretty much put NO effort into doing so.

Now it's just relying on western and samurai movie tropes. There is some effort at world building in S3 of Mandolorian, but it's not that great.

 

[EviLore]

The OT and PT are pretty consistent with each other, bearing in mind that the PT was created much later and expands the mythology.

The ST was made by morons.

 

[BlackTron]

I feel like the reason Star Wars is so popular is because most people aren't familiar with the stories that influenced it, or what has come after. But the world building in Star Wars is lacking.

- There is a lack of emphasis on the alien cultures. Aliens are there to be "exotic" or "weird", but there isn't anything underneath that.
- The factions are ideologically empty. What does the Empire stand for? First Order? What do they rebel alliance want, except freedom?
- Jedi philosophy is confusing and often contradictory.
- Ship design is hit or miss. X-Wings are pretty boring, but TIE fighters are cool.

As much as the Prequel Trilogy sucks, it definitely handled world building better than the OT did. And MUCH better than the Sequel Trilogy did, which pretty much was written by people who didn't care about the importance of lore and worldbuilding and so pretty much put NO effort into doing so.

Now it's just relying on western and samurai movie tropes. There is some effort at world building in S3 of Mandolorian, but it's not that great.

Star Wars is in bad shape, there is an entire thread about that. It has huge potential to be much more than it is, but they haven't used it at all.

World-building is not a complaint that I have with Lucas era, both OT and PT. He did a fine job setting up the universe in OT and then dialed it up to 11 in PT. It was the one area PT really excelled in. Now, it's getting boring because instead of building on the world they are still just putting everything in the settings Lucas already gave us. Even when Disney's their execution is better, it's on creatively bankrupt material.

Of course there are a few flashes of brilliance here and there, and it's not completely devoid of ideas, but it's not enough to carry.

Edit: I agree they are inconsistent about Jedi philosophy, which really kills the fantasy/illusion that there is some sort of deep message or wisdom hidden there if you look hard enough to put all the pieces together. The writers themselves don't get it. "Trust us, they're awesome, they have powers, and spiritual music". Very disappointing. I liked thinking there was a hidden message in Qui-Gons death to always focus on the present, as his focus on the "living force" is what made him the first Jedi to become a Force Ghost. You wonder, if he hadn't had a chat with Yoda after his death, Yoda would not have chided Luke so much for keeping his head elsewhere instead of the present -something Yoda had told a young Obi-Wan to do, now realizing it "should not be at the expense of the living force". By the time Neeson showed up again at the end of the Obi-Wan show, my interest was dead in even knowing where they had to take it. They're just throwing random crap at the wall anyway.

 

[VulcanRaven]

- The factions are ideologically empty. What does the Empire stand for? First Order? What do they rebel alliance want, except freedom?

Aren't they basically space nazis? Palpatine was the dictator even though they don't really show it in the movies.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

OP clearly hasn't seen the inside of a Star Wars cantina. It's like a steampunk bar but there's all kinds of aliens in it. So cool!

 

[Power Pro]

This is all Disney's doing. As bad as the prequels are in terms of writing, they expanded the universe. It's just Lucas is a terrible director, and needs someone who will fight him on bad writing decisions, when all he had were nothing but "yes" men around him.

Disney made the universe so small, and just fucking terrible. They threw out all the EU stuff, but didn't fill it with anything meaningful. They just wanted absolute control. They killed any interest I had in the series, that I have a hard time even going back to older Star Wars content.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I feel like the reason Star Wars is so popular is because most people aren't familiar with the stories that influenced it, or what has come after. But the world building in Star Wars is lacking.

- There is a lack of emphasis on the alien cultures. Aliens are there to be "exotic" or "weird", but there isn't anything underneath that.
- The factions are ideologically empty. What does the Empire stand for? First Order? What do they rebel alliance want, except freedom?
- Jedi philosophy is confusing and often contradictory.
- Ship design is hit or miss. X-Wings are pretty boring, but TIE fighters are cool.

As much as the Prequel Trilogy sucks, it definitely handled world building better than the OT did. And MUCH better than the Sequel Trilogy did, which pretty much was written by people who didn't care about the importance of lore and worldbuilding and so pretty much put NO effort into doing so.

Now it's just relying on western and samurai movie tropes. There is some effort at world building in S3 of Mandolorian, but it's not that great.

I think that's the point of SW. It's a very simple premise of good vs evil or rebels vs empire. That's kind of it. People got to understand that the intent of the franchise was fun space stories for kids. Yet somehow it's adults who latched onto it. And it's wrapped in creative planets, aliens, including alien languages where you need subtitles. It's a very human based setting where humans control the universe.

The opposite is Star Trek. You got all these interplanetary civilizations all overlapping and battling for space supremacy, crazy aliens with magic powers, politics, Q, Borg, teleportation beams etc...

 

[NecrosaroIII]

Aren't they basically space nazis? Palpatine was the dictator even though they don't really show it in the movies.

I get that. But if you look at literal Nazis, there is a lot of principles behind why they behaved they did. Why is the Empire?

Contrast that with the Principality of Zeon from Gundam. They're also Space Nazis. But you can glean a lot from how they came to be that way.

- Twisted version of a popular politician's ideology led to a racist ideology that people from space are superior to earthborn
- Frustration with bloated democracy leading to a more responsive dictatorship / aristocracy.
- power discrepancy lead to Zeon relying on immoral tactics (weapons of mass destruction / colony drops / genocidal tactics) in an effort to end the war quickly.

 

[EviLore]

I think that's the point of SW. It's a very simple premise of good vs evil or rebels vs empire.

Not anymore...

 

[FunkMiller]

Star Wars is now boring because Disney have over saturated the market, and homogenised it into a corporate pudding, with all of the charm and fun sucked out of the fucking thing.

 

[NecrosaroIII]

Not anymore...

Sigh... I think I have a pretty simple moral compass, but I feel like we as a society are moving too far into moral relativity. Moral ambiguity has its place in fiction, but I don't necessary think stories with strictly defined moral values are a bad thing. Especially for children's stories.

 

[kvltus lvlzvs]

I get that. But if you look at literal Nazis, there is a lot of principles behind why they behaved they did. Why is the Empire?

Contrast that with the Principality of Zeon from Gundam. They're also Space Nazis. But you can glean a lot from how they came to be that way.

- Twisted version of a popular politician's ideology led to a racist ideology that people from space are superior to earthborn
- Frustration with bloated democracy leading to a more responsive dictatorship / aristocracy.
- power discrepancy lead to Zeon relying on immoral tactics (weapons of mass destruction / colony drops / genocidal tactics) in an effort to end the war quickly.

reminds me of the Helghast in Killzone, who were set up as space nazis but actually ended up being far more interesting than whatever the good guys were called.

I still want a KZ game where you play as the Helghast.

Anyhoo, I don't really have a problem with the Empire, but the first order is the dumbest villain faction Ive ever seen in any media ever.

 

[EddieVanHelgen]

It is now, yeah.

 

[Arkangelus0]

I get that. But if you look at literal Nazis, there is a lot of principles behind why they behaved they did. Why is the Empire?

Contrast that with the Principality of Zeon from Gundam. They're also Space Nazis. But you can glean a lot from how they came to be that way.

- Twisted version of a popular politician's ideology led to a racist ideology that people from space are superior to earthborn
- Frustration with bloated democracy leading to a more responsive dictatorship / aristocracy.
- power discrepancy lead to Zeon relying on immoral tactics (weapons of mass destruction / colony drops / genocidal tactics) in an effort to end the war quickly.

Gundam space Nazis work in the 70s because they have balls, something star wars always lacked

Im jew, live in jew enviroment, my grandparents are holocaust survivors and my grandpa once told me, jews create the Nazis and their problems

I was like wtf, but like a Young jedi finding about the siths i have the wildest idea, i should study the Nazis, why they believe what they believe, how they become so evil and wtf was NY grandpa taking

That rabbit hole prove me holywood never is going to show how twisted the Nazis and the world erre at the time

 

[PaddyOCanager]

I feel like the reason Star Wars is so popular is because most people aren't familiar with the stories that influenced it, or what has come after. But the world building in Star Wars is lacking.

The OT was a fairy tale and the cinematic style in which Lucas told the story was done consciously towards that purpose. The reason Star Wars hasn't felt the same since the OT is because the franchise strayed further and further from that style ever since.

What you're criticizing Star Wars for is what people actually loved about Star Wars. The more shit that got explained, the smaller and less special the universe felt. The OT was shot to spark the imagination of audiences about what the universe could hold, not explain everything. Most kids made up their own backstories for the Empire and characters like Boba Fett.

Regardless, there were tons of supplemental media that fleshed out the universe. However, until Disney took over and mandated official canon you could take it or leave it.

 

[ThatStupidLion]

yeah. substantially undeveloped. It has the budget for a look but nothing underneath. theres way more meaty lore and depth in other IPs.

 

[Toons]

You have to understand the context that the world was created in.

Its very much inspired by old pulpy sci fi stuff, with usually having human characters at the center and a whole lot of humanized aliens in the backdrop. All of then have developed lemabguages and ingrained cultures and whatnot.

Its a deceptively simple setting that allows for a myriad of storytelling opportunities. I actually think the prequels overdid it on all the alien worlds a bit, but some of rhe later content from that era utilized it well. The much more grounded and human centric OT is a result of low budget but also a result of that not really being the focal point in the first place. Going from one trilogy to the next immediately is a bit jarring but later content has integrated the two "worlds" a bit better.

 

[NecrosaroIII]

The OT was a fairy tale and the cinematic style in which Lucas told the story was done consciously towards that purpose. The reason Star Wars hasn't felt the same since the OT is because the franchise strayed further and further from that style ever since.

What you're criticizing Star Wars for is what people actually loved about Star Wars. The more shit that got explained, the smaller and less special the universe felt. The OT was shot to spark the imagination of audiences about what the universe could hold, not explain everything. Most kids made up their own backstories for the Empire and characters like Boba Fett.

Regardless, there were tons of supplemental media that fleshed out the universe. However, until Disney took over and mandated official canon you could take it or leave it.

Worldbuilding isn't necessarily explaining. It's about having little details that fill in the cracks and make the world feel "real"

 

[EviLore]

JJ only knows how to remix someone else's work and set up mystery boxes for someone else to figure out, while distracting you with zoom zooms on the screen so you don't think about the nonsense he constructed until after the movie ends. So TFA is just a remix of ANH with mystery boxes and momentary audience engagement above all other concerns. It's full of cool moments and nostalgia but it's not a thoughtful way to set up a new trilogy. When he works on sequential projects, like Star Trek Reboot 1 and 2, the characters reset their development for each film and can't grow or change, because JJ can only have his characters bicker pettily while running frantically from one objective to the next.

Rian Johnson has written and directed some good films, but he was a terrible choice for a middle movie in a trilogy with an established lore. He only cared about flexing his brave auteur self by subverting expectations and deconstructing someone else's work to make it his own. And, much like Rey is "all the Jedi," Rian is all the worst people you see on Twitter. He can't handle criticism and is convinced he's infallible. Everything is modern political messaging. The cast and crew around him on set who were invested in the story of Star Wars for decades visibly died inside while he laughed hysterically.

Then JJ is brought back and tries to slap some bandaids on everything by drowning the audience in memberberries and sending all the characters on another wild goose chase. Somehow Palpatine returned. How? Why? It doesn't matter. Palpatine is that guy you remember from the OT. We need the dagger to get the wayfinder to get to Exoghoul to get to Palpatine in the next 14 hours before he launches 100,000 star destroyers from under the ice simultaneously! Much stakes. Unprecedented stakes. But despite being the final movie in the trilogy, everyone just bickers a lot and we don't get any real character development, because JJ doesn't understand character growth at all.


Lucas spent 4 hours a day studying history, mythology, religious texts, tragedies, etc., while writing the PT screenplays. And it shows.

 

[AJUMP23]

Most everything since Disney took over has been a disaster.

 

[Wildebeest]

It now only exists to sell toys, so it is never going to be anything more than an ADHD hosepipe blasting out things that people might buy a replica of and put on a shelf.

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

Its a trainwreck now.

 

[NecrosaroIII]

Most everything since Disney took over has been a disaster.

I can kind of see it. It seems like they don't really have much imagination.

 

[newtypepilot]

don't worry. Disney has already destroyed the franchise into the ground, so "boring" isn't really the appropriate description.

Although I understand where you are coming from, just stick to the original and prequel trilogies, and the clone wars animation.

 

[Raonak]

I heard you guys like desert planets.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

I'm a Star Wars fan I tend to agree. The expanded universe that is now called Legends was a lot of fun but we no longer have that and now have the Disney canon. It's so dull and it's the same old shit over and over again.

This is why I'm a lot more invested in Star Trek nowadays. There's so much variety in so many different stories and characters and settings and timelines and everything.

 

[TheInfamousKira]

Star Wars: set in an entire universe.

OP: Fuck this shit is DRAB

Spoiler:

And you're not wrong! The Force may be female, but the writers idiots

 

[Lasha]

The Star Wars films were never deep or interesting. The imagination of EU authors is what fleshed out the series and gave the setting a form of verisimilitude. The prequels further filled in the universe even if they took the series in a direction counter to what fans had envisioned. Games like KOTOR expanded the mythos of the world. Disney elminated all of that depth in favor of making films and shows that sell on nostalgia alone.

 

[John Marston]

The OT and PT are pretty consistent with each other, bearing in mind that the PT was created much later and expands the mythology.

The ST was made by morons.

And we are done here

I grew up on Star Wars, saw the OT in theatres multiple times and can still remember standing in line & the smell of the popcorn.

I'm repeating myself but I was never able to watch "The Rise of Skywalker" in its entirety no matter how much I tried.

I always crack when Rey heals that plastic looking CGI snake. Then John Williams' classic score kicks in & it just breaks my heart.

 

[SiteSeer]

Everything is modern political messaging.

Lucas spent 4 hours a day studying history, mythology, religious texts, tragedies, etc., while writing the PT screenplays. And it shows.

that's the problem with modern star wars, it is going against itself. ot star wars is a throw back fantasy, things like the dread castle, space wizards who practice arcane magic, laser swords, the black knight, the rarely-seen evil king, icky-dirty aliens, farm boy made good, princesses and the rogues they fall in love with. new star wars is about modernity, egalitarianism, progress, ideas that it wears on it sleeve, but really is better suited for star trek to explore. star wars should be looking 'back' for its stories, if you want to look forward, watch star trek.

 

[BlackTron]

that's the problem with modern star wars, it is going against itself. ot star wars is a throw back fantasy, things like the dread castle, space wizards who practice arcane magic, laser swords, the black knight, the rarely-seen evil king, icky-dirty aliens, farm boy made good, princesses and the rogues they fall in love with. new star wars is about modernity, egalitarianism, progress, ideas that it wears on it sleeve, but really is better suited for star trek to explore. star wars should be looking 'back' for its stories, if you want to look forward, watch star trek.

I think you finally put into words why my favorite is still the original movie. It just has this purity of what SW is all about, and is the only one that doesn't rely on any other movies to be a complete story. It came first, and with everything necessary in one efficient shot.

 

[EviLore]

The people making it don't care. Or when they do care, it's about righting things like perceived misogyny instead of telling a good story:

 

[poodaddy]

The people making it don't care. Or when they do care, it's about righting things like perceived misogyny instead of telling a good story:

Hollywood is just doomed.

On another note, this is giving me just the slightest bit of confidence that I should just start writing and stop being so harsh on myself. Every time I've tried to begin a novel I've always been so utterly displeased with my work after about three pages and then I just chunk it all and move on, but clearly I'm placing the bar a bit too high.

 

[EviLore]

Hollywood is just doomed.

On another note, this is giving me just the slightest bit of confidence that I should just start writing and stop being so harsh on myself. Every time I've tried to begin a novel I've always been so utterly displeased with my work after about three pages and then I just chunk it all and move on, but clearly I'm placing the bar a bit too high.

Definitely. Just keep going. Once you finish something, then go back and fix it. No one writes straight to the page coming out Shakespeare…other than Shakespeare. It’s a process that requires consistent output and revision.

 

[OmegaSupreme]

JJ only knows how to remix someone else's work and set up mystery boxes for someone else to figure out, while distracting you with zoom zooms on the screen so you don't think about the nonsense he constructed until after the movie ends. So TFA is just a remix of ANH with mystery boxes and momentary audience engagement above all other concerns. It's full of cool moments and nostalgia but it's not a thoughtful way to set up a new trilogy. When he works on sequential projects, like Star Trek Reboot 1 and 2, the characters reset their development for each film and can't grow or change, because JJ can only have his characters bicker pettily while running frantically from one objective to the next.

Rian Johnson has written and directed some good films, but he was a terrible choice for a middle movie in a trilogy with an established lore. He only cared about flexing his brave auteur self by subverting expectations and deconstructing someone else's work to make it his own. And, much like Rey is "all the Jedi," Rian is all the worst people you see on Twitter. He can't handle criticism and is convinced he's infallible. Everything is modern political messaging. The cast and crew around him on set who were invested in the story of Star Wars for decades visibly died inside while he laughed hysterically.

Then JJ is brought back and tries to slap some bandaids on everything by drowning the audience in memberberries and sending all the characters on another wild goose chase. Somehow Palpatine returned. How? Why? It doesn't matter. Palpatine is that guy you remember from the OT. We need the dagger to get the wayfinder to get to Exoghoul to get to Palpatine in the next 14 hours before he launches 100,000 star destroyers from under the ice simultaneously! Much stakes. Unprecedented stakes. But despite being the final movie in the trilogy, everyone just bickers a lot and we don't get any real character development, because JJ doesn't understand character growth at all.


Lucas spent 4 hours a day studying history, mythology, religious texts, tragedies, etc., while writing the PT screenplays. And it shows.

I still don't think the prequels are very good but I agree 100 percent with everything you said prior to that. Very well said.

 

[bender]

The OT and PT are pretty consistent with each other, bearing in mind that the PT was created much later and expands the mythology.

The ST was made by morons.

There is a George Lucas joke here somewhere, but like most things in life, he should be used in moderation.

 

[EviLore]

I still don't think the prequels are very good but I agree 100 percent with everything you said prior to that. Very well said.

it was an effort to make something different and expand the mythology rather than retreading the same ground, at least. And I can respect that, especially seeing how quickly it all turned dull and generic once Disney veered over to the safer path.

 

[BlackTron]

it was an effort to make something different and expand the mythology rather than retreading the same ground, at least. And I can respect that, especially seeing how quickly it all turned dull and generic once Disney veered over to the safer path.

When I was all sour after ep7 premiered, I was asked "why, why do you not like this new Star Wars???" by nostalgia-high friends. I said that even at its worst, SW was consistent for its creativity. Every movie added something new that you hadn't seen or known about before. 7 was such a blatant copy/paste job I felt my intelligence was insulted....by the time X-Wings were flying down a trench I was completely exasperated. It was just a big checklist. I eventually calmed down and gave Disney a little slack for playing it ultra safe for their first salvo...but when 8 came, I realized sometimes creativity isn't good, a copy is better

 

[Salz01]

I cancelled Disney plus a while ago because I’m tired of their shit, and how they kill IPs, but Ashoka does look kinda good. Hopefully it has some good Star Wars feels in it and maybe they aren’t half assing it.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

The original, now non-canonized, Expanded Universe was a great setting with a lot of interesting stories that got told.

The Disney Universe doesn't exist

 

[bitbydeath]

Aren't they basically space nazis? Palpatine was the dictator even though they don't really show it in the movies.

My head cannon is that the dark side is equivalent to the zombie virus.

 

[EekTheKat]

Star Wars kind of relies on establishing myths and lore that all kind of falls apart if it's overexplained.

I think Star Wars needed to retain an aura of mystery surrounding certain characters and events - that was part of the original charm of the OT. The PT did an admirable job trying to keep the wheels from falling off but ultimately things started to crack a bit. The ST is just full mask off nonsense that somehow got even worse when Lucasfilm decided to turn their last film in the ST trilogy into a full on apology letter to the fans.

These days - everything has to be explained. Even if it doesn't fit the lore or make any sense you have to make a movie or Disney plus show out of it.

5 minutes of Alec Guiness in a hut out in the desert talking to a young Mark Hamill about the Clone Wars did more for Star Wars than 3 entire movies under the Disney banner.

 

[NecrosaroIII]

These days - everything has to be explained. Even if it doesn't fit the lore or make any sense you have to make a movie or Disney plus show out of it.

Definitely. The low point was Obi Wan, a show made to explain why he told Luke Anakin was killed by Vader.

Silly.

 

[Nobody_Important]

I'm still waiting for Disney to realize that the Old Republic is where all the best material is.


Can you imagine a "Revan" trilogy that was loyal to the source material? It would make the MCU look like a kiddie park.

 

[Dr.Morris79]

Not anymore...

Christ I remember that. Can you believe these muppets now run the show. Billions of people on earth and these fools couldnt write anything with any real meaning, in Star Wars

It's unbelivable.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

Christ I remember that. Can you believe these muppets now run the show. Billions of people on earth and these fools couldnt write anything with any real meaning, in Star Wars

It's unbelivable.

Everything about The Acolyte makes me want to see it less and less and I was looking forward to it originally.

 

[StueyDuck]

Star wars has the potential to have really awesome unique stories. I know people love the EU but alot of those stories, not all, were still built on the very simplistic star wars timelime and relied on main franchise knowledge.

To make a great star wars story you would have to essentially delete all star wars references from your story.
We don't need laser swords or anyone related to anyone or memberberries or explosions or clones and so on and so forth.

 

[The Cockatrice]

No idea why they keep focusing on the Skywalker saga. The movie industry is boring af. The Old Republic has some crazy stuff that would make anyone shit their sci-fi pants but for some reason Hollywood is afraid to adapt it.

 

[ZehDon]

I think the setting has all the potential in the world (galaxy?) but the Mouse's suits currently in charge simply don't know how to actually let it grow. Don't confuse their ineptitude for a fault with the setting. The Mouseketeers tried to tear-down and re-place the OT, and it basically destroyed their entire brand. They tried to retreat to safe plays like "Obi-wan" and ended up pissing in the soup. The Mandalorian, a side-project largely left alone, found incredible success by going off and doing its own thing. But when it became the single sterling pillar of the franchise, the Mouseketeers stepped in because they needed it to do literally everything. Andor, taken for what it is, is a pretty great one-shot story set inside the Star Wars universe, and for me, demonstrate the capacity for the setting to house lots of disconnected stories. I'd love to see a legitimate pod racing story, for example - Star Wars: Days of Thunder? Sign me up! Lucas marred Star Wars with the poor execution of the Prequels, but he demonstrated the universe can expand and grow. Disney, it seems, have literally zero intent on growing or expanding the Star Wars universe, and instead, they seem to be content to just insert modern American political ideologies, cast a few famous cameos, and rehash Lucas' best work, hoping it catches on.

 

[WhiteWaterM00se]

I agree with OP. Star Wars has lost its luster because Disney refuses to move away from Jedi’s. Mandalorian, and Andor succeed partially because of this. In some ways. Both are still anchored around the Skywalker timeline.

Just looking at what is known…the Star Wars meta speaks of “Far off planets without Empire“,
”dealing with the Huts and other gangsters”, “the ancient times” (KOTOR, i assume).

Getting away from the Skywalker/Darth Vader era’s Is of the utmost importance. If it was me, every generation of people would have a different story and Well thought out stories and different characters so Str Wars remains unique.

Obviously, Star Wars borrows heavily from Issac Asimov. It would be nice to see them branch out from the original trilogy and not stay so reliant on the original trilogy and Asimov’s influence.

So much Disney could do. They just choose not too, for whatever reason.