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Star Wars: The Old Republic |OT2| In a F2Play galaxy far, far away

A good F2P game makes you want that sub because it's fun, not because you're so restricted w/o it. That's my take anyways.

Most good f2p system don't try to get you to sub, you have actual choice of how to spend your money instead of always holding something over your head. They let folks enjoy the game and pay for what they want. SWTOR's system just restricts every little thing that is ridiculous, and even if you pay as a f2p player, your still locked out of various game elements. You can spend a fortune in the cash shop, more than a subscription and still be restricted in many aspects which are subscriber only.
 

Azzurri

Member
Most good f2p system don't try to get you to sub, you have actual choice of how to spend your money instead of always holding something over your head. They let folks enjoy the game and pay for what they want. SWTOR's system just restricts every little thing that is ridiculous, and even if you pay as a f2p player, your still locked out of various game elements. You can spend a fortune in the cash shop, more than a subscription and still be restricted in many aspects which are subscriber only.

I agree with what you're saying
 

CzarTim

Member
Some of the logic behind it is a little baffling too. Like weekly unlocks being character specific rather than account-wide.

Account-wide unlocks are a little over 2x the normal price. Ignoring the fact that you can't currently buy more character slots, if I were looking at possibly playing more than one character beyond 1-50 story stuff, it makes sense to go ahead and unlock all of it. So I tallied it up and for the stuff I actually wanted to unlock, it was $50. As someone who pre-ordered the CE the night it went up, and paid for 7 months of subscription since launch, I refuse to pay a full retail copy of a game just to unlock basic features. That's not even counting weekly unlocks. So I decided to just sub every once in a while. I'd play a lot more if it was just weekly unlocks, but man, that's a shitty game.
 

Anoregon

The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
Most good f2p system don't try to get you to sub, you have actual choice of how to spend your money instead of always holding something over your head. They let folks enjoy the game and pay for what they want. SWTOR's system just restricts every little thing that is ridiculous, and even if you pay as a f2p player, your still locked out of various game elements. You can spend a fortune in the cash shop, more than a subscription and still be restricted in many aspects which are subscriber only.

Bolded the important part. Subscriber-only benefits (when compared to players who pay via unlocks) should be perks. The fact that there are pretty significant feature restrictions for non-subscribers that you can never unlock or mitigate, regardless of how much money you spend, is really lame.
 

ShaneB

Member
I just want to hear news that the game is in fact successful so that it does stick around and that Bioware can keep improving on it. I love what I'm playing so far, and it's a solid MMO, but the thrill of an MMO is knowing that it's constantly evolving, so I hope there is a bright future for the game.
 

Anoregon

The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
Good to hear that they are listening, now hopefully they keep it up and perhaps eventually lessen some other things.

Yeah, it sucks that they made some pretty dumb "why in the hell could you ever think this was reasonable" blunders, but growing pains are better than stubbornly sticking to a bad idea.

They just need to make Preferred an actually viable option for people who want to pay for access to content. The way someone chooses to pay for content should not have such a drastic impact as it does now. There should be virtually no penalties or exclusions for paying customers just because they would rather buy than rent. Every one of the limitations currently in place that cannot be mitigated at all for non-subs (currency caps, 2 trade skills, price increases, exclusion of lockboxes) need to be able to be removed via cartel coins.
 

Cystm

Member
Multi-Quote post inc!

It's not really crying about restrictions, it's that it's a crappy F2P system. Many other games have better systems that actually promotes players to play. SWTOR's system is just really weak and is going to turn away many players.

You are right, it made one good point about the specific implementation of race restriction for F2Play players:

Take character creation. Free players are now only allowed to create Human, Cyborg or Zabrak characters (the latter of which I think we have to assume aren't in the store purely as a pre-emptive strike on the "Darth Mall" joke). Subscribers can also access the original race choices, like Chiss Imperial Agents, and unlock others in the store or via the Legacy system. Free players have to pay up. Seems reasonable enough... until you actually try to do it.

If you want, say, a Twi'lek Bounty Hunter, you can't simply click the button, spend the money and start playing. Instead, you have to first create another character that you don't actually want and play them all the way to Level 10 - a whole planet's worth of content - to unlock the Legacy system that connects up your characters. Only then are you permitted to hand over your money, quit, go back, and start the game for real. Somebody implemented this!

While I think something like that should have been addressed out of the gate, and something like restricting action bars should simply never have been a consideration from the word go - I know they will be addressed. EDIT: As Tim showed, they have already addressed the Action bars.

The rest of of the article is padded out by fucking lazy, vague, hyperbolic pap.

Moving on to the rest of your post.

A player can buy unlocks, all of which temporary, while other f2p games let you buy your unlocks that you keep.

Will the real Minister of Misinformation please stand up? Literally every unlock from the unlocks tab is a permanent unlock. A player can choose to buy weekly passes instead of subscribing and feeling pressured into playing on that level. They can choose to purchase temporary XP bonuses as well.

It's pay to play how and when you want. It's not exactly where people want it to be yet, I agree and I am right there with them, but it's not as awful as some people are making out to be.

And the game still locks out various parts that a f2p player can not purchase. F2P players truly don't have the option to play as they want, because no matter how much they choose to spend, they are still locked out and restricted in many areas.

The review is for the F2P system itself, and as it stands, it's been a really sloppy and restrictive experience for the freebies.

Not if they have expectations of being granted everything people paying for the game are getting. I agree with Action bars being limited as being a fucking stupid move, but, beyond that, everything else is pretty reasonable - provided that you don't assume that the model is done and this is all there is ever going to be.

They have shown consistently since they announced months ago that they are developing content at a faster pace that they are capable of addressing the concerns of it's playbase(While finding other ways in which to make you think "WHY".

Updates to the F2Play model should not take too long at all.

------------------------------------------------------------End of rine.

Hi, Alur.

I know you say you can buy unlocks with in game credits, Cystm, and some you can I agree. However, the credit cap also prevents BW from making money by not allowing them to accrue enough to buy the more expensive unlocks. As it stands, the more expensive ones (and arguably, the most useful) like Artifact Equipment sell for two or three times what a F2P can accrue in credits, as well as just "perks" like say the Chiss race or what have you which are still running about 1.5 to 2x the credit cap.

The F2Play specific unlocks will generally not go beyond the limit to which people can actually pay for them, not if the market is smart.

Also, Stop fucking destorying my Smuggler with your twenty god damn healer, competent tank, group queued Warzone teams! I saw you and got so happy. Then your tank guarded you and I was sad. PHAT ASS 800 CRITS ALL DAY, SON!

:(

Yeah, it sucks that they made some pretty dumb "why in the hell could you ever think this was reasonable" blunders, but growing pains are better than stubbornly sticking to a bad idea.

YES, YES, YES!

They just need to make Preferred an actually viable option for people who want to pay for access to content. The way someone chooses to pay for content should not have such a drastic impact as it does now. There should be virtually no penalties or exclusions for paying customers just because they would rather buy than rent. Every one of the limitations currently in place that cannot be mitigated at all for non-subs (currency caps, 2 trade skills, price increases, exclusion of lockboxes) need to be able to be removed via cartel coins.

NO, NO, NO!

How much do you charge someone to buy rather than rent and why should those renting then continue to rent?

EDIT: Found this article on Darth Hater, thought it might be if use some of you.
 

Anoregon

The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
Do you not realize you are arguing a perspective that is demonstrably false? There are specific, existing examples of games that allow you the choice of buying content at will or paying a sub to rent it all at once, and guess what? They still have subs. It's just a matter of preference. Some people like a sub because 15 bucks a month is a drop in the bucket and it doesn't matter how much or how little they play. Other people like to pay for unlocks because they like the idea of only paying for the content they want. Strict, hard-core adherence to the "if you really like the game, then sub" idea is not only completely fallacious and counter-productive when trying to grow a F2P game, but it is no longer a viable option for a successful game. The market is clearly moving past it.

Honestly man, I don't even know how to argue with you at this point. You are telling me super-strict subscriber-only limitations need to exist in a game that is using a payment model specifically designed to attract people who are turned off by subscriptions. That no matter how much money someone chooses to throw at the game, just by virtue of the fact that they would rather pay via micro-transactions instead of a monthly sub, that it is still somehow justified and in even beneficial that they are still bound by those restrictions? That's just fucking nonsense.
 
Will the real Minister of Misinformation please stand up? Literally every unlock from the unlocks tab is a permanent unlock. A player can choose to buy weekly passes instead of subscribing and feeling pressured into playing on that level. They can choose to purchase temporary XP bonuses as well.

It's pay to play how and when you want. It's not exactly where people want it to be yet, I agree and I am right there with them, but it's not as awful as some people are making out to be.

Misinformation? My ass. Weekly pass right off the bat is not a permanent unlock. As others have said, other f2p titles generally let you just buy out permanent access to content. But I'm not talking just about that......

Free players are still locked out of many aspects which are being held hostage by the subscription. Lot a person can live with sure, that's to be expected but they have other really stupid things in place such as no matter what, chat restrictions. Players can't use custom chat channels unless they subscribe, so that's screwed over our guilding process and alliances we had with other guilds. Free/preferred players also are given increased costs on most things while also having currency caps. Not a subscriber? Well then all those planetary coms your earning are worthless since only subscribers can actually spend them due to the cap and raised costs. Buy that expensive unlock to equip purple items? Cool, too bad due to the currency cap, majority of gear can not be purchased by free players. Why even have such a stupid unlock when you wont let free/preferred players actually have the ability to earn these things? And of course you got other things like credit caps that can't be raised or full market access, character slots, etc

Why can't we buy unlocks for these things? They put a pay wall in front of something like hide head slot option, but I can't simply unlock my currency caps? I don't know a f2p game that hasn't let you do this.

You want to play the game as you want and pay only when you want for weekly passes? Cool, too bad that you free players can't earn enough of the currency tokens to actually buy anything of use with because of the caps again.

As been said many times, the whole thing is not a true f2p system but a way to entice people to subscribe, which I understand and have even defended. But if your going to rate the game as a f2p title, then you might as well be harsh on it, because it has a ton of holes in it's implementation. Lot of it's problems are obviously due to them holding onto that subscriber money teet and they lack in content offerings for which to have a true f2p system. Most other f2p translations have had the benefit of often years of content that they could restrict or sell to players, while SWTOR switched to a "free" system under a year from it's release.

Sure things are likely to change and improve, but again the review you linked too is reviewing the current state of the system, which it is very much spot on to it's flaws. Reviewer is not going to review based on hopes for the future.
 

Cystm

Member
Do you not realize you are arguing a perspective that is demonstrably false?

We've gone over this before, haven't we? You have nothing. Period. To demonstrate that.

There are specific, existing examples of games that allow you the choice of buying content at will or paying a sub to rent it all at once, and guess what? They still have subs.

Not nearly as many as TOR though, right? We've also gone over this before.

It's just a matter of preference. Some people like a sub because 15 bucks a month is a drop in the bucket and it doesn't matter how much or how little they play. Other people like to pay for unlocks because they like the idea of only paying for the content they want.

That's exactly what this Model does.

Strict, hard-core adherence to the "if you really like the game, then sub" idea is not only completely fallacious and counter-productive when trying to grow a F2P game, but it is no longer a viable option for a successful game. The market is clearly moving past it.

Except for the 900k subscribers to this game, the Millions that play both WoW and Rift.


Honestly man, I don't even know how to argue with you at this point.

Oh, no. You have made that perfectly clear.

You are telling me super-strictsubscriber-only limitations need to exist in a game that is using a payment model specifically designed to attract people who are turned off by subscriptions.

Purchase the passes to the parts of the game that you prefer. Pay to play in the way that you want to.

That no matter how much money someone chooses to throw at the game, just by virtue of the fact that they would rather pay via micro-transactions instead of a monthly sub, that it is still somehow justified and in even beneficial that they are still bound by those restrictions? That's just fucking nonsense.

I asked you to finally sensibly state exactly how you would see them:
Cystm said:
charge someone to buy rather than rent and why should those renting then continue to rent?

And instead you basically rehashed shit we have already gone over. Do you just like to complain for the sake of complaining? Or are you just full of shit?


Edit:
I am back! Woot.

6870 failed me though. Or maybe Asus sucks as a company.

Welcome back! You are just in time for the stupid fucking drama!

Misinformation? My ass. Weekly pass right off the bat is not a permanent unlock.

Weekly Warzone passes should be a permanent unlock? What would you charge for a permanent unlock that doesn't make subscribers completely lose any and all interest in subscribing?



Free players are still locked out of many aspects which are being held hostage by the subscription. Lot a person can live with sure, that's to be expected but they have other really stupid things in place such as no matter what, chat restrictions. Players can't use custom chat channels unless they subscribe, so that's screwed over our guilding process and alliances we had with other guilds. Free/preferred players also are given increased costs on most things while also having currency caps.

That's in place to deter spam accounts and gold farmers.

Why can't we buy unlocks for these things? They put a pay wall in front of something like hide head slot option, but I can't simply unlock my currency caps? I don't know a f2p game that hasn't let you do this.

It's been out for a few weeks. It will likely be in there.

You want to play the game as you want and pay only when you want for weekly passes? Cool, too bad that you free players can't earn enough of the currency tokens to actually buy anything of use with because of the caps again.

If you are hell bent on grinding gear, you should probably just subscribe or wait out another Cartel Market update. 2 weeks might seem like a long time to some of you? I guess? It doesn't to me.

As been said many times, the whole thing is not a true f2p system but a way to entice people to subscribe, which I understand and have even defended. But if your going to rate the game as a f2p title, then you might as well be harsh on it, because it has a ton of holes in it's implementation. Lot of it's problems are obviously due to them holding onto that subscriber money teet and they lack in content offerings for which to have a true f2p system. Most other f2p translations have had the benefit of often years of content that they could restrict or sell to players, while SWTOR switched to a "free" system under a year from it's release.

I like you.
 

vilmer_

Member
I've been pvp'ing on my now level 15 scoundrel and I'm having an absolute blast. The burst damage is still off the charts, I love sneaking around looking for unsuspecting victims :p
 

Cystm

Member
I've been pvp'ing on my now level 15 scoundrel and I'm having an absolute blast. The burst damage is still off the charts, I love sneaking around looking for unsuspecting victims :p

That class has always reminded me of pre-TBC Rogues. My 14k fresh 50 Smugg gets 2 shotted all the time. It's always hilarious.
 

vilmer_

Member
That class has always reminded me of pre-TBC Rogues. My 14k fresh 50 Smugg gets 2 shotted all the time. It's always hilarious.

It really is hilarious 1v1'ing is so much fun. I can't wait until I actually get some more abilities. The rotation I've been going with out of stealth is Back Blast - Blaster Whip - Stun - Thermal Grenade - Sabotage Charge - Stun number 2 - back into a Back Blast/Whip combo and the target is usually in big trouble :p Don't even have to hit the Flurry of Bolts filler lol!
 

Cystm

Member
It really is hilarious 1v1'ing is so much fun. I can't wait until I actually get some more abilities. The rotation I've been going with out of stealth is Back Blast - Blaster Whip - Stun - Thermal Grenade - Sabotage Charge - Stun number 2 - back into a Back Blast/Whip combo and the target is usually in big trouble :p Don't even have to hit the Flurry of Bolts filler lol!

Flechette Rounds and Upper Hand should be in there too.
 

Wallach

Member
Badass throne acquired. I figure 1.5 million can be made back soon enough.

Too bad their CS is a fucking nightmare right now, or I'd actually be able to give it to my Juggernaut and play him. Since that's sort of the reason I came back.

They closed my original ticket, stating that in-game support was only available to subscribers. I am a subscriber, mind you, and was well before they ever got to my ticket in the first place. Super awesome. Only took them 3 days to get around to fucking that up.
 

Cystm

Member
Badass throne acquired. I figure 1.5 million can be made back soon enough.

Too bad their CS is a fucking nightmare right now, or I'd actually be able to give it to my Juggernaut and play him. Since that's sort of the reason I came back.

They closed my original ticket, stating that in-game support was only available to subscribers. I am a subscriber, mind you, and was well before they ever got to my ticket in the first place. Super awesome. Only took them 3 days to get around to fucking that up.

Ouch. That sucks, man.
 

StudioTan

Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?
I guess F2P numbers are disappointing.

Somehow I doubt that if free to play numbers are disappointing that the culprit must be the 2 missing quickbars. More likely they just realized it was an unnecessary restriction that was causing more bad press than it was worth.
 

Alur

Member
Hi, Alur.



The F2Play specific unlocks will generally not go beyond the limit to which people can actually pay for them, not if the market is smart.

Also, Stop fucking destorying my Smuggler with your twenty god damn healer, competent tank, group queued Warzone teams! I saw you and got so happy. Then your tank guarded you and I was sad. PHAT ASS 800 CRITS ALL DAY, SON!

:(

Eventually, maybe. But the problem lies in the cartel packs on that IMO.

Right now, cartel packs have evened out at around 350-400k per pack on our server. So 360 cartel coins = 360k we'll say. You buy a $10 pack of cartel coins and you get 1050 coins. You can almost get 3 packs out of that, so basically now you $10 = 1 million credits roughly if the price holds like it has the past few days.

To unlock Artifact Equipment on ONE character, it's 1200 coins. Do you see where I'm going with this? It will never get below 300k and therefore affordable to F2Pers because the market says that 1050 coins = 1 million credits...so why would 1200 coins be only 300?

Now there are arguments to this. Artifact Equipment actually sells for like 750 or 800k on our server from what I've seen, which means it is undervalued in the market compared to it's real world price versus what 3 cartel packs are. And of course, the odds are that these prices will go down even more, but even if you cut the 400k of cartel packs to 200k, you're still above the threshold of what a F2Per can spend in credits per what the person who spent 10 real life dollars on the thing is gonna want to get out of it. You're saying the price will go down because it has to. I'm feeling like idiots will just stop being idiots and not buy something they can't get their money's worth on selling in game, but hey, fools and their money...

As for PVP, yessir I acquired me a tanking buddy for the first time in ages since Homicidium quit the game. We've played together the last 2 or 3 nights, it's nice being nearly immortal again against decent odds. BTW, why do you have no imp alts on this server? OR DO YOU?!

Somehow I doubt that if free to play numbers are disappointing that the culprit must be the 2 missing quickbars. More likely they just realized it was an unnecessary restriction that was causing more bad press than it was worth.

THIS!

That's all I've been saying. DON'T. FUCKING. SHOOT. YOURSELVES. IN. YOUR. OWN. DAMNED. KNEES. BIOWARE!

When 90% of your player base, who are subscribers and playing prior to your F2P launch, have a large outcry and tell you ahead of your launch that you cannot restrict UI bars (and that no other games do this), for the love of God don't do it! Seriously!

Now, among other things, just let them accrue EXP normally (or maintain 75% and give them rest EXP) and I'll consider this thing mostly solved if only because I have no clue how to price permanent unlocks to warzones and raids.
 

Wallach

Member
They finally got around to helping me out before maintenance tonight. At least I got to float around on it a bit before thee servers went down. Tomorrow I think it's time to get some Huttball in finally, so I can get back to force pushing people off the top level straight onto their stupid Republic faces.
 

Alur

Member
They finally got around to helping me out before maintenance tonight. At least I got to float around on it a bit before thee servers went down. Tomorrow I think it's time to get some Huttball in finally, so I can get back to force pushing people off the top level straight onto their stupid Republic faces.

Are you on our server (Jedi Covenant) Wallach, or one of the others?
 

Anoregon

The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
Cystm, somehow considering the lynchpin of your defense "yeah well, how much should permanent unlocks cost then, huh?" is a total strawman, which is why I've been ignoring it. Cost isn't the issue. There's a slew of pricing and bundling options for all sorts of accessibility unlocks that can be approached. Availability is the real issue. That's all I've been arguing for. The option to purchase features that are currently completely unavailable to non-subscribers. It's not like figuring out cost is some crazy insurmountable goal, as other games have clearly managed to do it. You mention multiple times that we've "gone over this before" as if that somehow strengthens your argument. It does not. I've mentioned stuff like the success of other F2P game models, including how it costs literally hundreds of dollars to have a full suite of subscriber features unlocked permanently in those games, but you either conveniently ignore them or just dismiss them outright to suit your needs.

The market IS moving away from subscriptions as a primary form or revenue for MMO-style games. This is not a reasonably debatable topic. It is absolutely a fact. WoW is the only significant outlier. EVERY other game that has focused exclusively on subscriptions has either failed outright, is performing under expecations, or converted to a F2P model. The fact alone that it was felt necessary to convert ToR to a F2P model is proof that subscriptions alone were not see as adequate for the long-term viability of the game, and it's why making sure the game is attractive to people who want to pay in ways other than a sub is so important.

And specifically, shit like the credit cap and currency cost increases being as harsh as they are shouldn't exist in the first place, let alone be removable by cartel coin purchases. A credit cap that is reachable in a day or two of questing and cost increases that make commendation gear prohibitively expensive is essentially double taxation for folks who have already paid for Artifact gear unlocks and operation/flashpoint passes. It is excessive.

But clearly I'm just wasting my time. You will continue to toss blindly dismissive snark at anyone who has the audacity to expect more reasonable restrictions out of EA. You are rapidly becoming a biodrone caricature in a ridiculous froth to defend the game just for the sake of defending it. The funny thing is that I don't dislike the game or want it to fail in anyway. I want it to be as successful as possible. But because I just don't buy this faulty rhetoric about how less restrictive F2P models will somehow drive all revenue away from the game, you react to me like I'm some kind of idiot asshole. It's absolutely absurd. I am not out to get you and I am not trying to see the game fail. Belligerent irrational defense is not necessary
 

Veezy

que?
So, I played a Sith Inquisitor, the mage class or whatever, to level 12. Some things I like:

-The showman ship of it all. Playing on of the early level grouping quests coming out of the main starship, I forget what they're called, felt exciting. The voice acting, the grouped responses, fighting the Jedi chick. Good stuff.
-On the above note, the voice acting is really well done.
-The writing is above passable. Some moments made me groan a bit, but over all solid attention to detail. I really enjoy how the main quests are set up as a back and forth talk instead of WoW's wall 'o text.
-The combat feels pretty good, but that might just be me liking lightsabers and lighting.

The bad:

-It's fucking WoW. There's no god damn way around it. When you look at how WoW has done phasing, leveling, combat, questing structure, grouping, etc. and compare it to the storyline set up of ToR, it's very similar. The questing is exactly the same. Maybe it changes at the max level, but I'm not sure I'll stay interested to find out.
-F2P is incredibly restricting. Moreso than, I think, any other F2P MMO I've tried out. Granted, there's only so much content and it was designed as subscriber from the start. Still, it's jst too damn much, IMO.
-I hate to drill this point in, but I can't understand why they copied WoW so damn closely. You brought out your game, at the same price, the same sub rate, as your main competition that has years on you in content and design, and coped the same type of game play save the way you tell your story. Why would people leave their game to play yours long term, when all their peeps already play the first game?

Overall, I really hope it's successful. It feels fun and I enjoyed the time I had with it. I just don't know how much more effort I can put into "go kill these ten things" just dressed up in the Star Wars universe.
 

UltraMav

Member
Sigh, last patch broke companions again. There goes my hopes of solo leveling my JK this week. (Or the next month judging by how long it took them to fix the broken companion gear from 1.2.)
 

Alur

Member
Sigh, last patch broke companions again. There goes my hopes of solo leveling my JK this week. (Or the next month judging by how long it took them to fix the broken companion gear from 1.2.)

What's broke? I'm out of the loop on that and haven't noticed anything on my merc. Maybe I should pay more attention.
 

kmz

Neo Member
Their stats are reset after basically any action that isn't walking in a continuous space, and you have to unequip and re-equip everything to get their stats back.
 

Alur

Member
-It's fucking WoW...I just don't know how much more effort I can put into "go kill these ten things" just dressed up in the Star Wars universe.

Gonna go out on a limb here and say maybe MMO's aren't entirely your thing then. I haven't played one yet that doesn't have the same kind of formula (though I did skip Guild Wars 2), before WoW or after, so we're talking EQ 1 and 2, WoW itself, Dark Age of Camelot, Vanguard, LOTRO, Rift, TERA, SWTOR, and to my knowledge (though I never played it) Aion, Asheron's Call, and some others as well.

WoW borrowed a lot of ideas and setup from EQ because it was the best at the time, and everything borrows from WoW because it's established and successful. The system of gameplay isn't broken, what holds most of these games back is mainly a time investment thing IMO. Why leave WoW where I have 4 max characters for a new game where I have none and there's much less to do, no matter how good it is.

WoW is dying slowly, and has been for some time, just as SWTOR was/is which forced F2P. It seemed to me that bar BW's slow development of patches and general PR gaffes, there were a shit ton of folks who wanted to "play WoW in the SWTOR universe", but your opinion may differ on that. They just couldn't keep most of their folks after they consumed the original content, and there was a decent percentage who had never been in an MMO before and were just like WTF is this?! and left.
 

Veezy

que?
Gonna go out on a limb here and say maybe MMO's aren't entirely your thing then. I haven't played one yet that doesn't have the same kind of formula (though I did skip Guild Wars 2), before WoW or after, so we're talking EQ 1 and 2, WoW itself, Dark Age of Camelot, Vanguard, LOTRO, Rift, TERA, SWTOR, and to my knowledge (though I never played it) Aion, Asheron's Call, and some others as well.

WoW borrowed a lot of ideas and setup from EQ because it was the best at the time, and everything borrows from WoW because it's established and successful. The system of gameplay isn't broken, what holds most of these games back is mainly a time investment thing IMO. Why leave WoW where I have 4 max characters for a new game where I have none and there's much less to do, no matter how good it is.

WoW is dying slowly, and has been for some time, just as SWTOR was/is which forced F2P. It seemed to me that bar BW's slow development of patches and general PR gaffes, there were a shit ton of folks who wanted to "play WoW in the SWTOR universe", but your opinion may differ on that. They just couldn't keep most of their folks after they consumed the original content, and there was a decent percentage who had never been in an MMO before and were just like WTF is this?! and left.

Don't get me wrong. There's something oddly calming about being able to kill 10 digital rats, turn in a quest, and watch a bar grown bigger. I love it, always will. Part of me still will always miss playing EQ, the constant bashing of bats with more than one wing on their person to slowly level four, I really do love MMOs.

It just took me back a bit to play the game and feel how similar it was to WoW. I'm enjoying myself, a lot actually. I guess I just never realized how similar to their top competition most MMOs are.
 

StudioTan

Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?
Don't get me wrong. There's something oddly calming about being able to kill 10 digital rats, turn in a quest, and watch a bar grown bigger. I love it, always will. Part of me still will always miss playing EQ, the constant bashing of bats with more than one wing on their person to slowly level four, I really do love MMOs.

It just took me back a bit to play the game and feel how similar it was to WoW. I'm enjoying myself, a lot actually. I guess I just never realized how similar to their top competition most MMOs are.

Just like how WoW was similar to MMOs that went before? I don't find the questing the same at all, it's the same basic ideas, just like shooters all share the same basic ideas, but the execution isn't exactly the same. MMO questing is MMO questing, WoW fits the mold, it didn't invent it. Even GW2 which tried so hard to convince people that it was breaking the mold is the same thing, only you don't talk to people to get the quests, they just pop up when you enter the area or when events spawn.
 

Alur

Member
I'm kind of excited that they added something new to the market already, though it is fairly ugly.

I have to wonder what Bioware's fascination with the colors of brown/yellow/orange/cream and their variations is. Where's the blacks, reds, blues, greens, and whites?
 

Ashodin

Member
Just did my first Esseles since beta, was pretty awesome. Good group overall, used the LFG tool and had a blast. Didn't get any loot really, but didn't really care, I had a lot of fun with it.
 

Cystm

Member
Cystm, somehow considering the lynchpin of your defense "yeah well, how much should permanent unlocks cost then, huh?" is a total strawman, which is why I've been ignoring it. Cost isn't the issue. There's a slew of pricing and bundling options for all sorts of accessibility unlocks that can be approached. Availability is the real issue. That's all I've been arguing for. The option to purchase features that are currently completely unavailable to non-subscribers. It's not like figuring out cost is some crazy insurmountable goal, as other games have clearly managed to do it. You mention multiple times that we've "gone over this before" as if that somehow strengthens your argument. It does not. I've mentioned stuff like the success of other F2P game models, including how it costs literally hundreds of dollars to have a full suite of subscriber features unlocked permanently in those games, but you either conveniently ignore them or just dismiss them outright to suit your needs.

The market IS moving away from subscriptions as a primary form or revenue for MMO-style games. This is not a reasonably debatable topic. It is absolutely a fact. WoW is the only significant outlier. EVERY other game that has focused exclusively on subscriptions has either failed outright, is performing under expecations, or converted to a F2P model. The fact alone that it was felt necessary to convert ToR to a F2P model is proof that subscriptions alone were not see as adequate for the long-term viability of the game, and it's why making sure the game is attractive to people who want to pay in ways other than a sub is so important.

And specifically, shit like the credit cap and currency cost increases being as harsh as they are shouldn't exist in the first place, let alone be removable by cartel coin purchases. A credit cap that is reachable in a day or two of questing and cost increases that make commendation gear prohibitively expensive is essentially double taxation for folks who have already paid for Artifact gear unlocks and operation/flashpoint passes. It is excessive.

Oh, for fuck's sake.

Click here and scroll down.

But, yeah. I disagree with you until you can come up with something beyond hyperbole or provide actual evidence to support your point of view so, therefore:

But clearly I'm just wasting my time. You will continue to toss blindly dismissive snark at anyone who has the audacity to expect more reasonable restrictions out of EA. You are rapidly becoming a biodrone caricature in a ridiculous froth to defend the game just for the sake of defending it. The funny thing is that I don't dislike the game or want it to fail in anyway. I want it to be as successful as possible. But because I just don't buy this faulty rhetoric about how less restrictive F2P models will somehow drive all revenue away from the game, you react to me like I'm some kind of idiot asshole. It's absolutely absurd. I am not out to get you and I am not trying to see the game fail. Belligerent irrational defense is not necessary

Limiting chat and action bar use better not make it through to live, or this game deserves to fail.

I will unsub.

I am not going to support something so fucking blatantly unintelligent and aggravating.

Was my knee jerk reaction, but then I actually took a few minutes to think about why they would be doing those things. The chat limitations are in place to circumvent Gold Farmers and Spammers. So, fuck Gold Farmers and Spammers. The action bar limitations were not justifiable, it should never have been in there, and the fact it was is fucking dumb. Glad they changed that.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=43597311&postcount=3289
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=43576680&postcount=3244
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=43521748&postcount=3150
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=43567532&postcount=3228

I'm kind of excited that they added something new to the market already, though it is fairly ugly.

I have to wonder what Bioware's fascination with the colors of brown/yellow/orange/cream and their variations is. Where's the blacks, reds, blues, greens, and whites?

What did they add?
 

ShaneB

Member
Just did my first Esseles since beta, was pretty awesome. Good group overall, used the LFG tool and had a blast. Didn't get any loot really, but didn't really care, I had a lot of fun with it.

When I did my first run of that instance, it was a wonderful reminder of why I like MMOs. Just wonderful co-op gaming at its finest. Kickin butt together and getting some loot and everyone having fun.
 
I'm kind of excited that they added something new to the market already, though it is fairly ugly.

I have to wonder what Bioware's fascination with the colors of brown/yellow/orange/cream and their variations is. Where's the blacks, reds, blues, greens, and whites?

Yea if they constantly add little things like that, then good. Though I do hope they have a meaningful update each month with them upgrading those cartel packs often. They can make a fortune by adding a few cool things to those packs, the hyper fans will rush out to buy tons more. Spent my cartel coins on account wide legacy unlocks and a couple packs, but mostly saving them for hopefully some cool stuff down the line.
 

Cystm

Member
LiveStream Event #2

BioWare and LucasArts are excited to announce the next LiveStream Q&A Event. Below is all the information you need in order to watch and participate in the LiveStream Event.

Star Wars™: The Old Republic™ - LiveStream

11/29/2012

3:00pm to 3:30pm CST

The second LiveStream Event will discuss Game Update 1.6: The Ancient Hypergate and the recently launched Free-to-Play option. Game Update 1.6 brings an exciting player-versus-player Warzone and new Heroic Space Missions. If you’d like to participate in this LiveStream Q&A Event, you can ask questions on the LiveStream Channel during the event or prior to the event through Twitter (#SWTOR), Facebook, or the official forums.

Be sure to come back to www.StarWarsTheOldRepublic.com for all the latest news. Also, don’t forget that you can stay up to date on the latest news and announcements on Star Wars™: The Old Republic™ through Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube!
 

UltraMav

Member
Well, 11 days after sending in my original CS ticket, I was responded to today and my situation was fully addressed. Impressively not only did I receive a full refund for my lost CC coins, but the CS rep awarded me 300 extra coins as a "gesture of good will" for the poor prior service and long wait time.

Kudos to BW for proving me wrong and doing right by the customer, even if it took a long time.

Now if they'd just get rid of that darn M0-T0 auto-responding, ticket-closing droid! ;)
 

Alur

Member
What did they add?

An "Experimental Pilot's Suit". Basically, a pilot suit you can buy with cartel coins instead of fleet comms, only uglier.

Yea if they constantly add little things like that, then good. Though I do hope they have a meaningful update each month with them upgrading those cartel packs often. They can make a fortune by adding a few cool things to those packs, the hyper fans will rush out to buy tons more. Spent my cartel coins on account wide legacy unlocks and a couple packs, but mostly saving them for hopefully some cool stuff down the line.

I feel the same BattleMonkey. I'm actually hoping they just lower the price on the old packs or something, and add completely new packs. If they keep adding items to the same pack, it'll be a major pain in the ass...

...or even better, they could retire some of the items for some time, and rotate them out or something.
 

Cystm

Member
Yea if they constantly add little things like that, then good. Though I do hope they have a meaningful update each month with them upgrading those cartel packs often. They can make a fortune by adding a few cool things to those packs, the hyper fans will rush out to buy tons more. Spent my cartel coins on account wide legacy unlocks and a couple packs, but mostly saving them for hopefully some cool stuff down the line.

I agree.

...or even better, they could retire some of the items for some time, and rotate them out or something.

That could work. I like the idea of rare items like the Throne or Mask of Nihilus not flooding the market long term. Perhaps rotate the packs rare items and make them unique per patch or every other patch?

They need to create more unique gear for sure anyway. Similar to the time frame LoL has on it's champion releases would be awesome. That's about two weeks, correct? Might need to take longer since they would have to do it for every class, or they can rotate releases per basic class type: ie saber classes one patch, ranged gun glasses the next.
 
I logged in yesterday as a preffered played and for some reason it thought I was a f2per and proceeded to hide away another 80k credits in escrow! I relogged and the status returned thankfully but I had to redo my second UI bar. Not that there is much to buy on Gav Daragon's GTN, it's almost empty.
 
After all the mergers the server is still that bad off? Is it EU or something? I guess I could look that up myself...

It's the Australian/Oceania RP server. I finished agent chap 1 last night and decided to do some upgrading for myself and Kaliyo, there was 1 green earpiece, no implants of any kind and no armor/weapons of any quality whatsoever.
 
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