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Starbound Beta Thread - Begins December 4th!
- Thread starter Retro
- Start date
I've been doing the nightly updates as well, and apart from the bugs it seems like there's a LOT more going on, especially on the combat side of things. One of the more welcome additions is the Tutorial, but there's a lot here that's confusing, oddly set up or just plain unhelpful. Here's a few thoughts on the tutorial if you guys are curious;
I feel like it's not 'there' yet. For example, when you first start off it immediately gives you a quest to repair the ship's thrusters and patch up the hull. The first thing you need to do, however, is reboot the ship's AI, but that's not mentioned anywhere, nor is it really hinted at by the game (though at least you cannot interact with anything else on the ship except the computer). I'd darken the whole ship except for a flickering light above that console, and I'd want an 'offline' version of the locker so that you're not tempted to interact with it; the main computer should draw all of your attention and right now it really doesn't.
You can also get distracted by the Tech and 3D printer options on that computer instead of the reboot command, feel like that should be disabled to start too. The AI prompts you to enable your Matter Manipulator, but after that tells you nothing (you're supposed to issue the "Enable Teleporter" option). I'll come back to this point in a second, first a minor nitpick; I feel like the AI's text crawl is too slow too. Clicking it should automatically show that line of dialogue so you're not sitting t...h....e....r.....e...........w...a....t....c....h.....i....n....g...............e....v...e....r...y............c....h....a...r...a...c....t...e...r...............l...o....a....d..............i....n...........s....l....o....w.....l....y.
Anyway, once you have the teleporter online, it's time to go make a crafting table, butreallyquickyoushouldalsogetthestufffromyourlocker. It's literally a little blurb at the end of the quest text (and since the pixelated typeface isn't exactly easy on the eyes, I found it all sort of blurs together into a blob of text; maybe bullet points for the major quest points would be a better approach). I can't help but think that the manipulator should be inside the locker, because it's very easy to just walk past it and not grab those essential items (a weapon, flashlight, torches and seeds).
I was thinking the ideal approach is to have some 'wreckage' that is blocking the teleporter that you have to use the manipulator to remove, so you learn how to use it before leaving the ship and there can be an obvious quest that says "Remove the debris to teleport." Putting the manipulator inside the locker means you cannot progress unless you open it, so there's no WAY you can miss those items. So basically the tutorial should go "Reboot the AI", then "Enable the Locker", then "Obtain the manipulator", then "Clear debris from the Teleporter". Then you should beam down and get the next quest step there.
Once you beam down, you're faced with all sorts of other problems. For starters, it tasks you with making a crafting table, but no hints about how to get wood. In fact, I've noticed several times that I start in a cluster of mushroom trees, which don't even give wood, so there's a long jog off to find 'real' trees, which is a bit of a headache. Seems like that first planet should only be generated with regular trees. There's also nothing about converting unrefined wood into planks, or any indication at all about the crafting menu.
I've had the same problem with plant fibre (required to craft bandages for a later quest) that I've had with trees. No hints that you get it from vines, but also I've spawned on planets where there are no vines on the surface at all, and at this point in the tutorial they haven't suggested a better pickaxe or anything that implies you'll need to dig.
I can't help but think that the Tutorial should be focused on the more 'domestic' side of things to start. For example, you start with seeds in your ship locker, but there's never any explanation about crafting a hoe, plowing the earth and harvesting plants. Instead, it sends you off into the wilds to hunt critters for meat. And in the same breath, it mentions making a bow, but doesn't tell you how to make one or why you might want to do that. For example, to craft it, you need plant fibre, but that hasn't been introduced yet since the bandage quest comes after the "Cook some meat" quest. They also don't mention that bows are a special class of 'hunting' weapons that yield more meat than regular weapons. Bows in general feel like they should be their own step in the tutorial.
So, instead of throwing combat and exploration at the player right away, I feel like the game should instead teach you with less dangerous methods. Once you get wood and craft a table, you should make a stone hoe. This introduces the player to the concept of digging with the Manipulator and using the crafting table to produce a new tool (which is something the quest text currently alludes to but never delivers on). Then a quick farming tutorial; plow the ground and plant the seeds.
This has the added benefit of players being able to get plant fibre from harvesting their crops, so even if the starter planet refuses to have any vines growing around, there's still an easy, safe and almost guaranteed way to get some for the bandage quest. Since it takes a while for plants to grow, there would need to be some kind of quest to kill a little time; maybe this would be a good point to introduce combat. For example, once you plant all 6 seeds, the game might say "Alright, now that food is taken care of, we need to worry about the cold" and task you with crafting a campfire. This would then spawn a weak enemy nearby that is attracted to your fire, giving you an underhand pitch to learn combat against. Maybe it has a 100% drop rate on meat so we can cover cooking.
I dunno. The problem with tutorials is they either don't teach well enough (Starbound currently has this problem, in my opinion) or they drag out too long and never let you just 'play' (Zelda has this problem). There's always the risk of having too much or too little, and different players need different levels of guidance. But playing the game in the mindset of someone who had no idea what to do next, I would have gotten lost, killed and quit rather quickly. I feel like the tutorial would feel less like chores if there was a natural progression (again; "reboot AI > unlock locker > get manipulator > clear debris" gives a very clear order in which there's no confusion or way to accidentally skip a step or miss anything).
So... yeah... good start, needs more work. As Haryu mentioned, the game kind of also paves over the need for Core Crystals and stuff. I actually thought I had bugged the game because I had done the quests out of order (I went and got a copper pickaxe before it told me to). Turns out it was just not very clear.
I feel like it's not 'there' yet. For example, when you first start off it immediately gives you a quest to repair the ship's thrusters and patch up the hull. The first thing you need to do, however, is reboot the ship's AI, but that's not mentioned anywhere, nor is it really hinted at by the game (though at least you cannot interact with anything else on the ship except the computer). I'd darken the whole ship except for a flickering light above that console, and I'd want an 'offline' version of the locker so that you're not tempted to interact with it; the main computer should draw all of your attention and right now it really doesn't.
You can also get distracted by the Tech and 3D printer options on that computer instead of the reboot command, feel like that should be disabled to start too. The AI prompts you to enable your Matter Manipulator, but after that tells you nothing (you're supposed to issue the "Enable Teleporter" option). I'll come back to this point in a second, first a minor nitpick; I feel like the AI's text crawl is too slow too. Clicking it should automatically show that line of dialogue so you're not sitting t...h....e....r.....e...........w...a....t....c....h.....i....n....g...............e....v...e....r...y............c....h....a...r...a...c....t...e...r...............l...o....a....d..............i....n...........s....l....o....w.....l....y.
Anyway, once you have the teleporter online, it's time to go make a crafting table, butreallyquickyoushouldalsogetthestufffromyourlocker. It's literally a little blurb at the end of the quest text (and since the pixelated typeface isn't exactly easy on the eyes, I found it all sort of blurs together into a blob of text; maybe bullet points for the major quest points would be a better approach). I can't help but think that the manipulator should be inside the locker, because it's very easy to just walk past it and not grab those essential items (a weapon, flashlight, torches and seeds).
I was thinking the ideal approach is to have some 'wreckage' that is blocking the teleporter that you have to use the manipulator to remove, so you learn how to use it before leaving the ship and there can be an obvious quest that says "Remove the debris to teleport." Putting the manipulator inside the locker means you cannot progress unless you open it, so there's no WAY you can miss those items. So basically the tutorial should go "Reboot the AI", then "Enable the Locker", then "Obtain the manipulator", then "Clear debris from the Teleporter". Then you should beam down and get the next quest step there.
Once you beam down, you're faced with all sorts of other problems. For starters, it tasks you with making a crafting table, but no hints about how to get wood. In fact, I've noticed several times that I start in a cluster of mushroom trees, which don't even give wood, so there's a long jog off to find 'real' trees, which is a bit of a headache. Seems like that first planet should only be generated with regular trees. There's also nothing about converting unrefined wood into planks, or any indication at all about the crafting menu.
I've had the same problem with plant fibre (required to craft bandages for a later quest) that I've had with trees. No hints that you get it from vines, but also I've spawned on planets where there are no vines on the surface at all, and at this point in the tutorial they haven't suggested a better pickaxe or anything that implies you'll need to dig.
I can't help but think that the Tutorial should be focused on the more 'domestic' side of things to start. For example, you start with seeds in your ship locker, but there's never any explanation about crafting a hoe, plowing the earth and harvesting plants. Instead, it sends you off into the wilds to hunt critters for meat. And in the same breath, it mentions making a bow, but doesn't tell you how to make one or why you might want to do that. For example, to craft it, you need plant fibre, but that hasn't been introduced yet since the bandage quest comes after the "Cook some meat" quest. They also don't mention that bows are a special class of 'hunting' weapons that yield more meat than regular weapons. Bows in general feel like they should be their own step in the tutorial.
So, instead of throwing combat and exploration at the player right away, I feel like the game should instead teach you with less dangerous methods. Once you get wood and craft a table, you should make a stone hoe. This introduces the player to the concept of digging with the Manipulator and using the crafting table to produce a new tool (which is something the quest text currently alludes to but never delivers on). Then a quick farming tutorial; plow the ground and plant the seeds.
This has the added benefit of players being able to get plant fibre from harvesting their crops, so even if the starter planet refuses to have any vines growing around, there's still an easy, safe and almost guaranteed way to get some for the bandage quest. Since it takes a while for plants to grow, there would need to be some kind of quest to kill a little time; maybe this would be a good point to introduce combat. For example, once you plant all 6 seeds, the game might say "Alright, now that food is taken care of, we need to worry about the cold" and task you with crafting a campfire. This would then spawn a weak enemy nearby that is attracted to your fire, giving you an underhand pitch to learn combat against. Maybe it has a 100% drop rate on meat so we can cover cooking.
I dunno. The problem with tutorials is they either don't teach well enough (Starbound currently has this problem, in my opinion) or they drag out too long and never let you just 'play' (Zelda has this problem). There's always the risk of having too much or too little, and different players need different levels of guidance. But playing the game in the mindset of someone who had no idea what to do next, I would have gotten lost, killed and quit rather quickly. I feel like the tutorial would feel less like chores if there was a natural progression (again; "reboot AI > unlock locker > get manipulator > clear debris" gives a very clear order in which there's no confusion or way to accidentally skip a step or miss anything).
So... yeah... good start, needs more work. As Haryu mentioned, the game kind of also paves over the need for Core Crystals and stuff. I actually thought I had bugged the game because I had done the quests out of order (I went and got a copper pickaxe before it told me to). Turns out it was just not very clear.
Wyndstryker
Member
GAF should become paid testers lol.
I'm not really testing it so much as I'm just trying to look at the tutorial as someone who's never played a game like this before and following the instructions to a T to see how useful they are.
I've only noticed two serious bugs; one where the game crashes to desktop without any kind of error, and one where the background disappears and reappears at random spots in the world. Reported both, even though that first one I had no idea what might be causing it. It happened when I would walk a certain distance from beam down, maybe it was trying to load some object that was giving it trouble, because starting a new character on a new planet fixed it.
I wouldn't MIND being paid...
On a more serious note, the reasons why I've started messing with the Nightlies (and posting about my playtesting) is that I think around here, if someone isn't talking about actual gameplay, especially NEW mechanics/features, everyone starts getting the impression that no work is being done on the game.
I'm not suggesting you guys should all follow suit and play the Nightlies, hell no. Nightlies pretty much require patience, a willingness to constantly uninstall/reinstall, delete files, run into bugs, or just encounter crap that just doesn't work. This would probably piss a lot of you off, so really, just wait for an official update, or just wait for the actual game to go to retail (although just the mere act of waiting is pissing some of you off already, and in all honesty, that's another debate I'd rather just not participate in again)
Yeah, gonna have to second that; I've had to delete my character / universe folder pretty much every update, it's not for anyone who really wants to play it long term.
I do enjoy having access to the dev admin commands though, so If I DO want to build something I can just conjure it.
I do enjoy having access to the dev admin commands though, so If I DO want to build something I can just conjure it.
Weltall Zero
Member
I personally am waiting for just that, and have no problems about it.
I would guess there's a silent majority that is just content with what it's there but also wants to play a game that's as complete as it can be, so they're waiting for the devs to call it "done".Looks like they finally managed to fix the issue with the outposts, so managed to actually get to one. Looks pretty sweet, although like its mentioned on the blog (I think?), while full of NPCs and "shops", the shops are just really huge storage containers. I think you can salvage them like other pieces of furniture, but I havent tried it yet.
Funny thing about the outposts: since they're on a floating asteroid in space, the NPCs don't seem to notice this. I followed one NPC who happily walked over the edge to his doom. They probably need to work on AI pathfinding.
Funny thing about the outposts: since they're on a floating asteroid in space, the NPCs don't seem to notice this. I followed one NPC who happily walked over the edge to his doom. They probably need to work on AI pathfinding.
I followed one NPC who happily walked over the edge to his doom. They probably need to work on AI pathfinding.
Or keep it somewhere and add a co-operative multiplayer Lemmings mode.
legacyzero
Banned
The game that sorta made me against Early Access. Game is good, I wont lie, but still...
When it's done right, it's a good thing for everyone. But yeah, it can certainly be abused.
Unless you're playing the nightly builds, you're not going to be seeing anything new.
Not saying you SHOULD be playing the nightly builds, just saying that there's movement/progress, you're just not gonna see it unless you play the nightly builds.
Frankly, I feel like saying there's no movement and complaining about it is weird. To me it seems like you've dropped money on an in-development game, aren't paying attention to its development, and are complaining. Checking the website will show that there's a post practically every single weekday talking about the things that have been or are being done.
Now, if someone is upset by how long it's taking, that I can understand even though I think it's okay. But acting like they've cheated you out of money and are doing nothing is absurd. Ship upgrades, work on a proper progression, adding Novakids, overhauling armor tiers, etc... Technical stuff to improve performance and allow new features, improving wiring and lighting, changing the patching system for modders, they're currently working on overhauling the status effect system I believe. And there's a lot that's happened besides that lol.
But yeah, you won't see these things without playing the nightly builds which are automated updates every day from the very unstable development builds. But I still think people should at least bother to read the site on occasion before saying they're doing nothing.
Now, if someone is upset by how long it's taking, that I can understand even though I think it's okay. But acting like they've cheated you out of money and are doing nothing is absurd. Ship upgrades, work on a proper progression, adding Novakids, overhauling armor tiers, etc... Technical stuff to improve performance and allow new features, improving wiring and lighting, changing the patching system for modders, they're currently working on overhauling the status effect system I believe. And there's a lot that's happened besides that lol.
But yeah, you won't see these things without playing the nightly builds which are automated updates every day from the very unstable development builds. But I still think people should at least bother to read the site on occasion before saying they're doing nothing.
LUFTRAUSER
Banned
This game ruined Early Access for me, and I think the developers are incompetent. But I think I've said enough about this already, in older threads.
I just wish I had waited to buy this game, as it really isn't worth playing, and it hasn't updated in over six months unless you count the automated nightly builds which apparently almost never work. I don't.
I just wish I had waited to buy this game, as it really isn't worth playing, and it hasn't updated in over six months unless you count the automated nightly builds which apparently almost never work. I don't.
legacyzero
Banned
I guess it doesn't help that I stopped playing the game purposely just for them to finish it, so yeah, I'd say I'm in the "This is taking too dam long" category.
Would you prefer for them to release it unfinished?
These are the type of games that will constantly be evolving, I think. Like, the devs can reach a point where they have enough of a base game and then release it. Support it afterwards. Not unlike what they're doing now, I suppose.
However, I personally think their original scope for the project got way out of control.
Weltall Zero
Member
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
The complaints aren't so much that a "release" version hasn't been, well, released, rather than development seems to have slowed to a crawl (even taking nightlies into account) compared to the breakneck speed at which stuff was seemingly being done before the alpha. I for one can't help but feel that, yes, development speed has slowed a lot, and it's only human to wonder if having banked all that money certainly removed a huge incentive for them to keep working long hours in the game.
As a developer myself, I have to wonder if the problem with early access is precisely that; not that people will maliciously take the money and run, but simply that people are humans with human motivations, like being paid and putting bread on their tables, and honoring after the fact a nebulously defined work rate only goes so far as a motivation.
Still, I think the game is well worth the asking price (even in its current state), but obviously everyone has their own perception of worth, so hey.
DiscoShark
Banned
I'm conflicted because I've put enough time into the game where I can't just up and say that I didn't ultimately get my moneys worth but whats ultimately been changed since its initial release hasn't struck me as hugely significant (and yes, I keep tabs on the daily updates).
Pretty much this. And for me at least I think this sort of thing is creeping into my potential excitement for a game like No Mans Sky as well if for nothing more than being a game with lofty promises that hasn't gone a long way in demonstrating how the actual game will be playing itself out.
Mengy
wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
I usually tend to avoid early access games and much prefer waiting until games are finished before buying them. However, that said, if an early access game has enough meat and promise that I can be happy with what they already have (in case all development stopped immediately) AND if the price is right, then I sometimes cave in. Minecraft back in alpha was the first early access game I ever bought, and it was the absolute best gaming purchase I've ever made. I've literally played hundreds of hours of it and I only paid $10. I bought Kerbal Space Program for $16 because the game is done enough that I can enjoy it and they update it regularly, and I already have over 80 hours played with KSP so I have no regrets. With Starbound I bought it for $15 because I love the concept and (at the time) they were updating it often. I have about 40 hours played with Starbound but I haven't touched it in months now, I'm just waiting for some more progress. I'm not sorry I bought it early but part of me wishes I'd waited a bit, I expected much more progress by now. Still, hopefully they begin updating again someday and I can start playing it some more.
But yeah, Starbound may have soured me a bit on early games too. I haven't dived in on Elite Dangerous yet even though I played the hell out of every other Elite and and drooling anxiously over it. I would like to buy Asseto Corsa but am hesitant to until it's "done". I think I'm more cautious now too, now that I think about it.
New Blog Post: http://blog.chucklefish.org/?p=91
Contains spoilers, but also a list of everything they want to have done for 1.0 (the "Launch" version). Guess I better get started on that OT.
Contains spoilers, but also a list of everything they want to have done for 1.0 (the "Launch" version). Guess I better get started on that OT.
Mengy
wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
Fuck Yeah!! That progression chart they posted is exactly what I've been waiting for all of these months! Looks great, exactly what I was hoping they were going for with the progression revamp. I can't fuckin wait to play once 1.0 hits live.
They say this year yet, so hopefully they are serious about that. It feels like it's been forever since I've spent any real time with Starbound.
Weltall Zero
Member
http://blog.chucklefish.org/?p=91 said:
... what. As a programmer and sometime project leader myself, I'd estimate the time needed to complete all that to be a couple of years minimum. Some of those bullet points ("implement pets") could take months each. If they've been this optimistic during the whole project, I'm not surprised about the delays at all.
But eh, if they think it'll be done this year they'll probably work more eagerly and enthusiastically, so whatever works!
Ingueferroque
Banned
I really wonder if they will be able to get this running well on Vita, it seems like a mammoth task, and I assume they should work with a third party developer that is experienced in vita ports.. hopefully it will become a reality.
Hope they are able to finish this year, I didn't touch the game for about a year because of the resets and all.
Do they have controller support yet?
It'll be soon time to play it again, I already got 33+ hours of the phase 1 so no regret.
so theres no phase 2 and 3 anymore?
And 1.0 will definitely not be released this year if their stable updates are anything to go by.
I believe they're kind of in Phase 2 now. The last stable update will basically be Phase 3.
That's if they're even using phases anymore, because the community has been nothing but shit and they've changed their plans a bunch of times to accommodate their complaints.
The community is what it is. On the one hand you do have a lot of pricks and jerks, on the other hand you have awesome modders and various enthusiasts, so let's not put them all in the same basket.
Also, Chucklefish has been delaying the game for years now. You can't blame people for feeling a little jaded after all this time.
Also, Chucklefish has been delaying the game for years now. You can't blame people for feeling a little jaded after all this time.
From my understanding, Phase 1 was suppose to be "quick and frequent updates" where they'd try to get the basics of the game engine in. So by that definition, its more or less done. (yeah yeah, I know, they listed a lot of stuff to work on, keep reading)
Where we are now, seems to be a mix of Phase 2 and 3. They mentioned that they would have incorporated Novakids in Phase 3, but we have them already (Nightlies). A lot of what they're working on now is content, not the actual engine (missions, items, armors, NPCs), and that fits in I think what Phase 2 is suppose to be.
I'm not going to predict 1.0 is out this year, but I'm guessing that they've decided to just combine Phase 2 and 3 together, or maybe combine a lot of whats suppose to be in Phase 3 into Phase 2.
Anyway, once stable update hits, I'll put the server back up. We're going to need to declare a new planet as GAF Planet, becuase the whole sector map thing has been pretty much thrown out... although now that we've got asteroid bases, I'd love it if GAF had a space outpost AND a planet.
Also, since they incorporated actual admin server commands that I can use, I should have my usual server god powers again. BWAHAHAHA.
XT Vengeance
Member
Awww yisssss.
Ingueferroque
Banned
That lighting update they did made a world of difference. I can't wait for this to reach 1.0.. though I'll probably wait for a 1.1 patch just to be sure!
legacyzero
Banned
Yeah, I have purposely stopped playing this game to wait for 1.0
Game is fun, but I dont wanna get burned out by it, and then miss a bunch of shit once is does get finished.
Game is fun, but I dont wanna get burned out by it, and then miss a bunch of shit once is does get finished.
Weltall Zero
Member
My exact position as well. Plus I just started XCOM (at last).
Mengy
wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
That's what I've been doing too. Once the new progression system gets patched in then I'll start playing again. Until then I'm playing other games.
Modding for Starbound is going to be.... yeah....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUHUHmdVX7A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUHUHmdVX7A
Wuthering_Heights
Banned
I can't wait to play this on PS4 in 2017 or so. Gonna be a long wait. 
That's awesome, especially the Z tech tease which I want to see completed/in action lol.
Wyndstryker
Member
Modders doing what Capcom won't
I'm waiting for a full on Metroid mod that incorporates various beams and suits for traversing the game world. Hell, there's already a Morph Ball tech.
The potential for Mods + Director mode to basically re-create game scenarios via Starbound is... staggering.
That looks kind of cool, but the performance looks like it's chugging from here. I hate to think what something more complicated would be like, unless the engine significantly improves in later versions.
Oh yeah, the nightly builds are all over the place performance wise, simply because adding something new can cascade out and screw all sorts of things up. The stable build is pretty solid.