LegendOfKage
Member
It's especially interesting how studios aren't talking about this publicly.
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Studios are now assembling fan focus groups to avoid social media backlash and increase sales
- Thread starter LegendOfKage
- Start date
It's especially interesting how studios aren't talking about this publicly.
March Climber
Member
In theory I see the potential benefit.
In execution I have already seen this fail, because once the targeted parties start to become pleased, the finish line is suddenly pushed 50ft back.
In execution I have already seen this fail, because once the targeted parties start to become pleased, the finish line is suddenly pushed 50ft back.
The Cockatrice
I'm retarded?
Toxic positivity is now the new cool in games and movies. Instead of just making a risky product theyre still going the safe and boring route.
TrueLegend
Member
Toxic to who is the question here.
LegendOfKage
Member
Apparently the failure of The Acolyte may have influenced this.
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I don't get why more producers don't just ask fans "We want to add more diversity to this project, so how could we do that in a way that will feel natural and won't go against established lore? What established female characters, or minority characters, or groups can you think of from this work of fiction that we can work with? What would you suggest?"
Then just take those characters or write some new ones, and you have your diversity. That doesn't seem like it would be that hard. People hated the Witcher on Netflix because they ignored the storyline and the lore of the books. But I think they could have absolutely added more diversity to The Witcher without breaking the lore, race swapping the characters, or rewriting the story. They could have really expanded on the story and characters in some cool ways without doing any of that, and without writing new storylines that completely go against character motivations and values.
But instead they ruined the show, and blamed racists and sexists like they always do.
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I don't get why more producers don't just ask fans "We want to add more diversity to this project, so how could we do that in a way that will feel natural and won't go against established lore? What established female characters, or minority characters, or groups can you think of from this work of fiction that we can work with? What would you suggest?"
Then just take those characters or write some new ones, and you have your diversity. That doesn't seem like it would be that hard. People hated the Witcher on Netflix because they ignored the storyline and the lore of the books. But I think they could have absolutely added more diversity to The Witcher without breaking the lore, race swapping the characters, or rewriting the story. They could have really expanded on the story and characters in some cool ways without doing any of that, and without writing new storylines that completely go against character motivations and values.
But instead they ruined the show, and blamed racists and sexists like they always do.
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Trunx81
Member
What are you talking about? Acolyte only flopped because of some incels. That’s what I read on the internet /s
Toyota is also canceling all DEI related stuff. Nature is healing.
RJMacready73
Simps for Amouranth
It ain't exactly rocket science to all of us old dudes, the world just ain't ready for all this DEI bollocks.
Whilst a small section of insulated bobble heads who grew up with 2 mummies and 4 daddies think the world should orbit them, they unfortunately left college with their insanity reinforced and entered the entertainment workforce with their useless degrees.
We've been seeing the constant failure of these morons and their lashing out and it's bringing us such joy to finally see the pendulum start to swing back as studios realize the vast majority of people don't have purple hair... Took em long enough
Whilst a small section of insulated bobble heads who grew up with 2 mummies and 4 daddies think the world should orbit them, they unfortunately left college with their insanity reinforced and entered the entertainment workforce with their useless degrees.
We've been seeing the constant failure of these morons and their lashing out and it's bringing us such joy to finally see the pendulum start to swing back as studios realize the vast majority of people don't have purple hair... Took em long enough
DetectiveBananas
Member
Hopefully, they’re not solely using focus groups from people living in L.A. That’s gonna skew things dramatically in the studios favor. Talk people in smaller towns in middle of nowhere USA or U.K. to get true representation.
LegendOfKage
Member
Good point. Aside from that, I edited my last point to explore what a win-win scenario regarding the groundbreaking concept of checking with fans could look like. If you don't agree with it, feel free to remove your reaction accordingly.
Madflavor
Member
They needed this 10 years ago when they were making the Sequel Trilogy. Apparently the well known backlash to things like Midochlorians, Jar Jar Binks, Sand, and Vader scream "No!" didn't clue the studio in that the Star Wars fanbase is very vocal and easy to piss off. Perhaps turning Luke into a hermit loser who gave up and walked out on his friends and family, was not a good idea.
Lunarorbit
Member
It's so boring and I mean that for both sides. I look at star wars as an example and see that the fan base was traditionally straight males. Instead of doing what you suggested kain, the studio seems to actively attack their fan base and antagonise them, lumping all the fans together and telling them they are toxic. Sure some of them are but now you've alienated older fans.
Shoehorning diversity into a series like star wars the way they did was way too aggressive. The "force is female"! Fuck you straight guys!
Like slow your roll and your anger. Diversity is needed but what did you think the response was gonna be to Acolytes? You can't be that blind. Take the pandering down cause it's super obvious and insulting.
kruis
Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
The forced inclusivity/diversity diversity was one of the worst things about the Witcher TV series. The fantasy world of the Witcher is based on medieval central Europe and very, very heavily influenced by the fairy tales, legends and myths of Slavic Eastern Europe. That's what gave the books and in particular the games so memorable, simply because they weren't based on Scandinavian/Germanic or Greek/Roman mythology like so many other fantasy series. The US/UK creators of the TV series completely disregarded that important aspect of the books/games, for them it was just generic fantasy hogwash they could mold as they wish.
By making everything diverse, the world of the Witcher completely lost its sense of location. The story doesn't take place in a fantasy, pseudo medieval version of Poland, but in a generic fantasy setting where every location looks the same, where geographical distance doesn't exist and where even the most remote villages at the edge of the world has a diverse population with European whites, Arabs, Indians, Asians, blacks and other ethnicities.
digoutyoursoul
Member
And what is the selection process?
Is it going to end up like what happened with Xbox? Obnoxious, arrogant shills telling you what you want to hear so they can be invited to more events and rooftop parties?
Using them so eventually they can be part of the blame game if something fails?
Give them a sense of importance so they can gaslight other fans on social media for having “expectations “ ?
Is it going to end up like what happened with Xbox? Obnoxious, arrogant shills telling you what you want to hear so they can be invited to more events and rooftop parties?
Using them so eventually they can be part of the blame game if something fails?
Give them a sense of importance so they can gaslight other fans on social media for having “expectations “ ?
Or if you were going to do that maybe spend 30-45 minutes of the movie using flashbacks to show how Luke got here instead of wasting that time on the whole casino subplot that was just one big waste of time. (Instead of 15 second clip of him trying to murder his nephew.) You know, give the fans what they wanted to see(what's Luke been up to) just not quite the way they expected. (He ends up like Yoda)
Laptop1991
Member
Why would this increase sales if the end products don't change and the fanbases already know what they are like, they won't be trusted no matter what they do apart from improving the Games/Film's and TV shows, this is futile like the Borg said lol.
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Mistake
Member
As someone who has done a lot of traveling, diversity is great, but forcing it is not. Especially when the stories are written a certain way. The fact these people need to hire consulting firms to tell them to stop, shows they haven't learned a damn thing on their own
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Fbh
Member
I like how apparently the definition of a toxic fan is anyone who doesn't just shut the fuck up and keep consuming the next crappy product these companies put out
"You need to sign up for Disney+, watch the Acolyte and love it"
"No thx"
"Omg why are you so toxic?"
It's literally the meme:
"You need to sign up for Disney+, watch the Acolyte and love it"
"No thx"
"Omg why are you so toxic?"
It's literally the meme:
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ChorizoPicozo
Member
another "rare" victory. 
Trilobit
Member
I'd say the problem is toxic creatives who can't deal with criticism so they lash out blaiming everyone and their moms of being racist bigots. And then when fans react with puzzlement to that respone the creatives dig themselves ever deeper into those whacky trenches and refuse to listen to anyone, no matter how calm and reasonable that person might try to be. So them needing "focus groups" to deal with the problems of their own making really speaks volumes of how out of touch they are.
Kraz
Member
Talk about impostering. Kid's just learning world history.
Oy, a focus group won't help. Usually people have no idea what they want and can't express themselves anyway.
What they need is a true visionary. Someone who people will say is toxic in the work place because he told them no, or write this better, or this character should have character. The problem with today's movies is writing, it's awful. Fix that and then let's move on to acting and cinematography.
What they need is a true visionary. Someone who people will say is toxic in the work place because he told them no, or write this better, or this character should have character. The problem with today's movies is writing, it's awful. Fix that and then let's move on to acting and cinematography.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
There are plenty of movies that do well at the box office and/or with critics. Over 500 movies were released last year... Not even the majority were the types most on here complain are "woke" or pandering or DEI... It's only a small section of that number y'all are even seeing that get that ... And they're mostly "event" movies or Blockbusters. Some of these productions just aren't hiring better writers... They're getting the cheapest ones. And even the more prestige writers have "off days" ... The most consistently brilliant ones have more control over what they write or who they hire to write... Like James Gunn or Spielberg. Direction is also a big piece of the puzzle. Writing is still king, tho.
I guess my point is, there will always be SOME backlash when it comes to fans ... Like the whole thing with Rose in TLJ (the movie was trash but the actress didn't deserve ANY of the hate she got from "fans")
I guess my point is, there will always be SOME backlash when it comes to fans ... Like the whole thing with Rose in TLJ (the movie was trash but the actress didn't deserve ANY of the hate she got from "fans")
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The Witcher world, thrown together from various groups snatched from their original locations by the confluence, was the one that could MOST tolerate ethnic diversity, but when its shared across the elves, humans, and dwarves it blurs the lines between species as well. Rings of Power suffers from this. Wheel of TIME REALLY suffered from the loss of place like you mentioned though, DESTROYED that show because the post apocalyptic nature of it wasn't used to good effect.
The real issue here is STOP MAKING MEDIEVAL EUROPE SHOWS if you want ethnic diversity! Stuff like Damsel COULD have been set in a culture away from english castles and clothing and then no one would really care. The Hercules and Xena shows did this with a sense of otherworldly "not on a real earth" location that accommodated the actors they wanted without breaking any immersion. BBCs "Merlin", on the other hand, did not.
Give me shows set in Constantinople, a fantasy Morrocco, or, shocker, just make a wholly original world, and then go hog wild. Stop giving me vikings outta Norway in 850 AD filled with what looks like what came off a bus in the middle of London or NY circa 2024. No one would do that for a show set in mesoamerica before columbus, in the chinese middle kingdom, or in Hindustan pre-european expansion there. That "Those about to die" show set in Rome does a good job integrating peoples from across the Mediterranean and beyond in a way that is fairly consistent with the time period and the story they are telling.
Toons
Member
This is going to backfire and is not needed
Fanbases aren't a monolith and can't be universally pleased. This becomes more true the bigger the fanbase is.
Theres always gonna be something people are whining about, and there always has been, well before the so called "dei" era so many here, for the large dedicated fanbases. Trying to pander to them is a futility because there's no one thing that will make everyone happy, and this compromises on the artists intent and pushed these closer to being products than actual projects.
Im in the same fanabses as many individuals that I think are idiots and who I vehemently disagree with on about everything. The chances you'd please us both is already slim.
Fanbases aren't a monolith and can't be universally pleased. This becomes more true the bigger the fanbase is.
Theres always gonna be something people are whining about, and there always has been, well before the so called "dei" era so many here, for the large dedicated fanbases. Trying to pander to them is a futility because there's no one thing that will make everyone happy, and this compromises on the artists intent and pushed these closer to being products than actual projects.
Im in the same fanabses as many individuals that I think are idiots and who I vehemently disagree with on about everything. The chances you'd please us both is already slim.
TheInfamousKira
Reseterror Resettler
This is quickly going to become the Far Left's version of Gamergate and DEI culture wars, isn't it? I can see tweets and headlines now:
"A focus group composed entirely of the Fandom Menace- find out how Disney's desperate capitulation to man babies and chuds is literally endangering marginalized voices,"
"Of course the MCU is trash now, their backroom creatives are pandering to The Critical Drinker's crowd and ignoring the fan base that set them on the map!"
OR
The media will do one of their famous "180 in 24 hours," script flips where they'll close the office up on the 12th talking about how transgendered drag Queens should be able to hold "wax penis molds," arts and crafts seshes with the local kids at the public library, only to wake up on the 13th with articles about how tits and guns are cool and always have been. IGN here first with Disney's bold new franchise featuring a straight white guy - a bold new twist on a bold old twist on good story telling!
In so far as the culture war is an observable thing - I'd say most of us are on the right side. However, in analysis, it's done little more than to activate a preternatural ability of sorts to be able to see the mainstream media's reply to a fumble or success three moves ahead. It's always going to be tired shifting of goal posts.
"A focus group composed entirely of the Fandom Menace- find out how Disney's desperate capitulation to man babies and chuds is literally endangering marginalized voices,"
"Of course the MCU is trash now, their backroom creatives are pandering to The Critical Drinker's crowd and ignoring the fan base that set them on the map!"
OR
The media will do one of their famous "180 in 24 hours," script flips where they'll close the office up on the 12th talking about how transgendered drag Queens should be able to hold "wax penis molds," arts and crafts seshes with the local kids at the public library, only to wake up on the 13th with articles about how tits and guns are cool and always have been. IGN here first with Disney's bold new franchise featuring a straight white guy - a bold new twist on a bold old twist on good story telling!
In so far as the culture war is an observable thing - I'd say most of us are on the right side. However, in analysis, it's done little more than to activate a preternatural ability of sorts to be able to see the mainstream media's reply to a fumble or success three moves ahead. It's always going to be tired shifting of goal posts.
Trilobit
Member
This I feel the most with how many enjoy the Obi-Wan show because they get to see McGregor and Hayden Christensen together again. I grew up with the prequels, but I never thought they were on the level of the originals. They looked prettier and had cooler lightsaber fights, but that's mostly it. I also think CGI Clone Wars show is a 5/10 show overall. So this "pandering" to that audience isn't something I'm too fond of. With that said I also think the original trilogy era is overdone including the sequel trilogy. So while I'm a huge SW fan I don't agree with a big portion of the fanbase. I'd rather want something at a minimum of 100 years after the sequels or set in the KOTOR era.
So yeah, I agree with you,this really won't end well. They need story-telling visionaries who understand the heart and soul of whatever IP it is, someone who isn't obsessed with identity politics, but instead wishes to pull together great writers and creators to create unique stories in those universes. Someone who's inspired and knows the internal rules of the IP, but doesn't simply nostalgia bait the audience.
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VulcanRaven
Member
That was actually one of the few ideas from Lucas' original plans.
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Saber
Member
I lived long enough to see a generation where all the blame fall in the consumers.
Imagine me doing crap in my work and blame the patients which btw paid bills high as fucks.
World really needs that shock of order to put things back to normal. And when I said normal, I mean put people with mental issues back to holpitals or asylums instead of applauding them and let them work on high positions.
Imagine me doing crap in my work and blame the patients which btw paid bills high as fucks.
World really needs that shock of order to put things back to normal. And when I said normal, I mean put people with mental issues back to holpitals or asylums instead of applauding them and let them work on high positions.
Luke flaking out and running away isn't inherently a bad idea. Its how he OVERCOMES his failures and returns to WRECK SHIT that would have made that turn a cinematic masterpiece. Instead of limping around and ending like a wet fart, Luke could have come back and tossed those knuckle dragging AT-ATs around like toys and in general just went out like a boss. Finally succumbed to his dark side but using for a good purpose.
The point of the dark/light dicotomy isn't really evil/good, IMHO, but rather power/compassion. Force mastery gives you SO MUCH power, the Jedi monastic philosophy is really an attempt to harness it versus the Sith who REVEL in it. Luke could have shown that power alone isn't absolutely corrupting and given Rey a path forward that blends the two ideologies.
But nooooooooooooooooooooooo, we got TLJ instead.
VulcanRaven
Member
I would have liked The Last Jedi a lot more if
Luke had lived. I was very excited during the final but then he just died.
I really don't think you need to spoiler that bit
If anything, they should have gotten Mark Hamill to do a Leia impression so they could have filmed ROS the way they intended before Carries tragic passing. Go full on meta with it at that point.
Madflavor
Member
Believe me, I’m not one of those people that tries to rewrite history that Lucas was a great storyteller and visionary.
Go_Ly_Dow
Member
Whether it's games, movies, TV I just think artistry and storytelling to the standards we saw in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s and even the 00s is fucked.
The entire entertainment sector is lost in ideology which is breaking immersion through activism.
It doesn't exactly inspire confidence does it having to resort to this...
The entire entertainment sector is lost in ideology which is breaking immersion through activism.
It doesn't exactly inspire confidence does it having to resort to this...
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Tams
Member
Or how about we don't need diversity.
Having a diverse cast where it makes sense in the story? Sure, fine.
But pandering to those who feel they need to see someone like themselves, or worse those who vicariously need it. They can fuck off.
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Audiophile
Member
The solution is hiring capable people who put the characters, stories and overall quality above everything else. Then trusting the process.
Andor would be a prime example.
Failing miserably in this department and then doing art/entertainment by committee is not the solution.
Andor would be a prime example.
Failing miserably in this department and then doing art/entertainment by committee is not the solution.
March Climber
Member
Your post is 2 years too late as it’s not that simple anymore, and for proof of this go to the Ghost of Yotei thread in the gaming section.
We are in the pre-judging era of entertainment.
RJMacready73
Simps for Amouranth
I honestly don't have too much of a problem with diversity, a series as big as the Witcher had to be diverse as you want to appeal to as broad an audience as possible not to mention it's netflix FFS, pretty sure their employees have pronouns on their signatures, hell this new Harry Potter TV show will obviously be more diverse than the movies and I as a massive fan with 2 kids who are massive fans won't have a problem if they recast Hermione as a POC as again it gives it a wider appeal and would be a natural fit, what I do find issue is when they go full swing in the other direction as they did with the Acolyte where they just threw in every tick box DEI shite they could find.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Dont push politics and DEI into a product and you'll get more honest answers that represent the world.
There's a big difference between woke writers making junk content where skittish employees and focus groups are afraid to say it's shit, vs a food company getting people to give honest opinions if their new muffin is tasty or not.
There's a big difference between woke writers making junk content where skittish employees and focus groups are afraid to say it's shit, vs a food company getting people to give honest opinions if their new muffin is tasty or not.
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Nostalgic Nightmare
Member
We’re in the pre-judging era because these entertainment entities focused on pushing bullshit identity politics and forced token DEI bullshit over delivering quality entertainment.
When that failed they started with the whole, oh everything you don’t like is “woke” after they shoved the term down everyone’s throat for years and now like to ask the whole “what does woke even mean?” rhetorical.
As if ruining a myriad of popular franchises and beloved stories and games weren’t enough, when telling their core audiences “it’s not for you” - when all of this backfired, rather than admit their faults they triple down and blame the core audience and consumer- not the extremely vocal minority who never showed up when they needed them.
In short (well long but whatever) fuck em.
They caused their own mess and everyone should be prejudging when it comes to entertainment until they prove it through actual art and story first, not their bullshit agendas and activism like we’ve seen everywhere for years.
It’s on them to captivate an audience after burning all goodwill.