Support NeoGAF

[8bitpill]

The forced inclusivity/diversity diversity was one of the worst things about the Witcher TV series. The fantasy world of the Witcher is based on medieval central Europe and very, very heavily influenced by the fairy tales, legends and myths of Slavic Eastern Europe. That's what gave the books and in particular the games so memorable, simply because they weren't based on Scandinavian/Germanic or Greek/Roman mythology like so many other fantasy series. The US/UK creators of the TV series completely disregarded that important aspect of the books/games, for them it was just generic fantasy hogwash they could mold as they wish.

By making everything diverse, the world of the Witcher completely lost its sense of location. The story doesn't take place in a fantasy, pseudo medieval version of Poland, but in a generic fantasy setting where every location looks the same, where geographical distance doesn't exist and where even the most remote villages at the edge of the world has a diverse population with European whites, Arabs, Indians, Asians, blacks and other ethnicities.

If you look at the producers, writers, and casting agents tied to The Witcher series you will see why they handled it so poorly and all inclusive cast was applied to that show.

The casting agency and the person that runs it went on record as saying how they wanted to cast through this talent management,
https://www.bam.management

The only good thing about that show was Henry Cavill.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Diversi

I honestly don't have too much of a problem with diversity, a series as big as the Witcher had to be diverse as you want to appeal to as broad an audience as possible not to mention it's netflix FFS, pretty sure their employees have pronouns on their signatures, hell this new Harry Potter TV show will obviously be more diverse than the movies and I as a massive fan with 2 kids who are massive fans won't have a problem if they recast Hermione as a POC as again it gives it a wider appeal and would be a natural fit, what I do find issue is when they go full swing in the other direction as they did with the Acolyte where they just threw in every tick box DEI shite they could find.

Diversity can a major problem whether it's hiring people or promoting it media. And everyone knows it but too afraid to clamp down on it.

When hiring, the company isnt hirng the best, but simply checking off a quota box so HR can brag to the world and government surveys says the company has xxx % white people, yyy% latinos, zzz% etc.... But the government can be the one who influences it since federal contracts can depend on a company's demographic labour pool. Dont have the split? Then you cant bid on the project. Thats how it works with major projects. Government does this (along with any country that doesn't do lots of universal healthcare benefits coverage) because they want the company to take on responsibility. They hope companies fund benefits and prop up financials of certain groups of people. The more corporations do this, the less burden the government has bailing their asses out.

Diversity in media can be a problem simply due to it being jammed it like HR forced the dev team to add it (ie. check boxes again), preaching messages on top of it instead of just being chill, and making the game/media look unrealistic and out of sync. People will always say it's just fiction, so who cares, but that's absolutely not true. Media content all has their own universe of norms, but making it too quirky or changing it can be stupid. Street Fighter makes sense it's tons of unique characters and fighting styles because the origins of the game is a bunch of fighters from around the globe kick the shit out of each other. There's even a map showing where each person comes from. Having a medieval sword slasher from 1,000 years ago having a perfect split between whites and minorities makes no sense except pandering or trying to maximize sales hoping minorities get interested in the game based in Germany or Rome. It's really no different than playing Bloodborne and suddenly a boss arrives in a Porsche. It might be fiction, but there's still suspension of disbelief within the realm of what makes sense or not. When anything in life gets odd, that's when people question the motives and quality of the product.

And some reason media companies whether it's games, tv or movies have insane trouble understanding it. Every other company understands to not get involved. Or when they dabble in it and get wrecked, they claw it back.... Gillette bad dad ads, Bud trans marketing, many companies lately publicly saying they are getting rid of discriminatory DEI initiatives etc.... If Nabisco makes a shit cookie that doesnt sell, guess what? They'll likely can the product by the end of the year and you wont see another cookie like this again. But media companies are stubborn with their politics and business strategy.

It's been such a train wreck this year, if this doesnt make them change nothing will.

 

[DKehoe]

A deeply dull way to make films. But unfortunately not a surprising one. These days audiences seem less interested than ever in trying something new and just want what they already know fed back to them. It's a pity that the people making films would pander even further to that.

I want someone to give me what I don't know I want. The creator(s) should be making what they think is cool and interesting, not just trying to appeal to the broadest possible base. If films had just been made that fit what the audience said they wanted then things would be far duller.

If I don't like the film then I can just move on. It's not some personal insult to me.

 

[diffusionx]

Incel-chads just can't stop winning.

These companies have spent the past ten years (since GG) claiming that if they just doubled down and called people names then they would shape the landscape and public opinion. Well, the failures have finally started catching up to them. I still say don't call for it, screw these people.

 

[StueyDuck]

if you need to hire people to say, hey that fucking extremist radical ideology you are trying to push on kids is wrong, then you are way way way too far gone. (it also just sounds like the new grift, tell companies obvious thing and make money, how can i sign up to be the painfully obvious coach at disney?)

sounds like these companies need a leadership change, plain and simple.

 

[VulcanRaven]

When that failed they started with the whole, oh everything you don't like is "woke" after they shoved the term down everyone's throat for years and now like to ask the whole "what does woke even mean?" rhetorical.

Anti-woke people are the only ones using the term.

 

[dave_d]

I would have liked The Last Jedi a lot more if

Spoiler

Luke had lived. I was very excited during the final but then he just died.

I figured they'd filmed it that way because they weren't sure if Hamill wanted to do another picture and figured if he did they'd just edit out that part out in post production.

 

[kruis]

I honestly don't have too much of a problem with diversity, a series as big as the Witcher had to be diverse as you want to appeal to as broad an audience as possible

You're repeating a DEI fallacy: that you need a diverse cast to appeal to a diverse modern audience. But look at the immense success of the two biggest fantasy series of all: Lord of the Rings/Hobbit movies (and Game of Thrones. The LotR had a complete white cast, not because the producers were bigots, but because they adhered to the source material. GoT only had non white actors when the books described those characters as non-white. The casting increased the verisimilitude of the shows, because even though the different story lines took place in a multitude of places, you immediately knew where you were and who everyone is. You could SEE the physical difference beween a Dothraki, a Northerner or a character from Dorne.

House of the Dragon didn't follow the source material and now has a diverse cast. The Velaryons who are pale-skinned and purple-eyed in the books are black in the TV series. This immediately led to plot issues in the first season when Rhaenyra Targaryen married a black Velaryon man but then had a years long affair with a (white) man and had three white children. In the book it's understandable why the king would refuse to believe the court rumors about the father of his grandsons , but in the series his unwillingness to see the truth is completely inexplicable because anyone understands that those children didn't have a drop of black blood in them. If the show runners had just stuck to the books this wouldn't have been an issue at all.

 

[Jinzo Prime]

Anti-woke people are the only ones using the term.

Wrong. "stay woke" was a rallying cry of the left before it got turned on them.

 

[NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt]

There are plenty of movies that do well at the box office and/or with critics. Over 500 movies were released last year... Not even the majority were the types most on here complain are "woke" or pandering or DEI... It's only a small section of that number y'all are even seeing that get that ... And they're mostly "event" movies or Blockbusters. Some of these productions just aren't hiring better writers... They're getting the cheapest ones. And even the more prestige writers have "off days" ... The most consistently brilliant ones have more control over what they write or who they hire to write... Like James Gunn or Spielberg. Direction is also a big piece of the puzzle. Writing is still king, tho.

I guess my point is, there will always be SOME backlash when it comes to fans ... Like the whole thing with Rose in TLJ (the movie was trash but the actress didn't deserve ANY of the hate she got from "fans")

Yet TLJ sucked ass

It's funny how Disney deflects any criticism of that movie by saying that actress who played Rose was harassed. And movies and shows have gotten worst for the past 10 to 15 years too

Yes there are bad movies and shows in the past but at least those are watchable in comparison to what's been coming out recently

 

[LegendOfKage]

When that failed they started with the whole, oh everything you don't like is "woke" after they shoved the term down everyone's throat for years and now like to ask the whole "what does woke even mean?" rhetorical.

Anti-woke people are the only ones using the term.

This is just wrong, unless you're suggesting that anti-woke people are mainly the ones using it NOW, which is exactly what the post above you was referencing.

 

[NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt]

This I feel the most with how many enjoy the Obi-Wan show because they get to see McGregor and Hayden Christensen together again. I grew up with the prequels, but I never thought they were on the level of the originals. They looked prettier and had cooler lightsaber fights, but that's mostly it. I also think CGI Clone Wars show is a 5/10 show overall. So this "pandering" to that audience isn't something I'm too fond of. With that said I also think the original trilogy era is overdone including the sequel trilogy. So while I'm a huge SW fan I don't agree with a big portion of the fanbase. I'd rather want something at a minimum of 100 years after the sequels or set in the KOTOR era.

So yeah, I agree with you,this really won't end well. They need story-telling visionaries who understand the heart and soul of whatever IP it is, someone who isn't obsessed with identity politics, but instead wishes to pull together great writers and creators to create unique stories in those universes. Someone who's inspired and knows the internal rules of the IP, but doesn't simply nostalgia bait the audience.

The Clone Wars is a 10/10 show for me

 

[jason10mm]

I honestly don't have too much of a problem with diversity, a series as big as the Witcher had to be diverse as you want to appeal to as broad an audience as possible not to mention it's netflix FFS, pretty sure their employees have pronouns on their signatures, hell this new Harry Potter TV show will obviously be more diverse than the movies and I as a massive fan with 2 kids who are massive fans won't have a problem if they recast Hermione as a POC as again it gives it a wider appeal and would be a natural fit, what I do find issue is when they go full swing in the other direction as they did with the Acolyte where they just threw in every tick box DEI shite they could find.

See, this is 100% FALSE. Squid games was a massive hit and it was 100% Korean. Same for tons of chinese, japanese, and korean shows. The OG Harry Potter was a massive hit and it hewed FAR closer to the actual demographics of Great Brittan. LOTR was a massive hit and it hewed very close to the source material for how characters should look.

Diversity is MEANINGLESS if the writing is shit. Actively using "color blind"/aka color wheel casting DESTROYS world building in most contexts because the source didn't account for it. You could do a Malazan adaptation and if the Tiste Andii aren't black, and the other races cast as they are described, then the world building all falls apart. Same with GRRMs Westeros and many other series that have a mirrored earth with peoples from places across our earth be represented as such. Pale lily white skinned folks in hot desert areas make little sense. Black skin in arctic tribes makes little sense. There are reasons for the skin pigmentation of humans based on geography and if you are gonna violate it "just 'cause" then the writing needs to be TOP NOTCH to compensate. But stuff like House of the Dragon with black Velyarions and white Targaryens, DESPITE NUMEROUS PRIOR MARRIAGES, just destroys the show and undermined a key part of the plot. They could have worked around it, but its a great example of forced diversity that actively sabotages the story. Tell a story about the Summer Isles if that's who you want to cast.

Obviously for future worlds it is less relevant (though stories like Chung Kuo with a strong split between the chinese and "everyone else" requires casting accordingly) but for fantasy worlds with limited modes of travel and a sense of place derived from mimicking ancient earth cultures, having a consistent ethnic casting is as important as costuming, armor, fighting styles, language, and a host of other things for establishing characters and world building. Ignoring this RUINS shows, and the list of adaptations that have fallen prey to this ideology is long and growing.

 

[FunkMiller]

Yet another pointless exercise in avoidance of the one cold, hard fact that's driving all of this:

The main target audience for these franchises are, were, and always will be, straight dudes.

All the time the people in charge refuse to accept this, and refuse to actually do the work to make IP for other audiences, this failure level will remain.

 

[Trilobit]

The Clone Wars is a 10/10 show for me

This ugly thing is like a placeholder in my mind everytime someone says "Clone Wars".

 

[March Climber]

We're in the pre-judging era because these entertainment entities focused on pushing bullshit identity politics and forced token DEI bullshit over delivering quality entertainment.

When that failed they started with the whole, oh everything you don't like is "woke" after they shoved the term down everyone's throat for years and now like to ask the whole "what does woke even mean?" rhetorical.

As if ruining a myriad of popular franchises and beloved stories and games weren't enough, when telling their core audiences "it's not for you" - when all of this backfired, rather than admit their faults they triple down and blame the core audience and consumer- not the extremely vocal minority who never showed up when they needed them.

In short (well long but whatever) fuck em.

They caused their own mess and everyone should be prejudging when it comes to entertainment until they prove it through actual art and story first, not their bullshit agendas and activism like we've seen everywhere for years.
It's on them to captivate an audience after burning all goodwill.

And this is exactly why I told him it can't be that simple anymore. There's too many aspects built up from the past, like you're stating, for such a simple solution.

 

[NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt]

See, this is 100% FALSE. Squid games was a massive hit and it was 100% Korean. Same for tons of chinese, japanese, and korean shows. The OG Harry Potter was a massive hit and it hewed FAR closer to the actual demographics of Great Brittan. LOTR was a massive hit and it hewed very close to the source material for how characters should look.

Diversity is MEANINGLESS if the writing is shit. Actively using "color blind"/aka color wheel casting DESTROYS world building in most contexts because the source didn't account for it. You could do a Malazan adaptation and if the Tiste Andii aren't black, and the other races cast as they are described, then the world building all falls apart. Same with GRRMs Westeros and many other series that have a mirrored earth with peoples from places across our earth be represented as such. Pale lily white skinned folks in hot desert areas make little sense. Black skin in arctic tribes makes little sense. There are reasons for the skin pigmentation of humans based on geography and if you are gonna violate it "just 'cause" then the writing needs to be TOP NOTCH to compensate. But stuff like House of the Dragon with black Velyarions and white Targaryens, DESPITE NUMEROUS PRIOR MARRIAGES, just destroys the show and undermined a key part of the plot. They could have worked around it, but its a great example of forced diversity that actively sabotages the story. Tell a story about the Summer Isles if that's who you want to cast.

Obviously for future worlds it is less relevant (though stories like Chung Kuo with a strong split between the chinese and "everyone else" requires casting accordingly) but for fantasy worlds with limited modes of travel and a sense of place derived from mimicking ancient earth cultures, having a consistent ethnic casting is as important as costuming, armor, fighting styles, language, and a host of other things for establishing characters and world building. Ignoring this RUINS shows, and the list of adaptations that have fallen prey to this ideology is long and growing.

I watched the first season of The Wheel of Time and that was one of my main issues with the show. I never read the books but after watching the first season, I immediately dropped the show and started to read the books. I'm reading through the book series slowly and finished the first two books.

So far the books are fantastic and that's because the writing is much better and the cast isn't full of DEI shit. And I know that characters from other countries in that world are based off of different cultures and ethnicities and that the characters who come from those countries show up later just not right away. The show just felt generic with making most of the cast DEI. The main female lead should have looked exactly like what she looked like in the books.

And to me it's just weird how they cast the ugliest looking Indian actress as her. I seen way better looking Indian Actress that could have been cast in that role if they wanted to go the DEI Route. That village itself should be all Caucasian, instead it's a mix of races which is ridiculous since it took me right out of the show. So far the books have been excellent and it's refreshing to just be entertained without any DEI being shoved down my throat

 

[NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt]

This ugly thing is like a placeholder in my mind everytime someone says "Clone Wars".

I love the movie too

 

[DeafTourette]

Wrong. "stay woke" was a rallying cry of the left before it got turned on them.

Umm... Not exactly. It was mostly the black community that used the term. Not "the left". Now the term has been co-opted by others to mean something else.

 

[8bitpill]

A deeply dull way to make films. But unfortunately not a surprising one. These days, audiences seem less interested than ever in trying something new and just want what they already know fed back to them. It's a pity that the people making films would pander even further to that.

I want someone to give me what I don't know I want. The creator(s) should be making what they think is cool and interesting, not just trying to appeal to the broadest possible base. If films had just been made that fit what the audience said they wanted then things would be far duller.

If I don't like the film then I can just move on. It's not some personal insult to me.

Miyazaki is a god damn legend.

 

[Tams]

I honestly don't have too much of a problem with diversity, a series as big as the Witcher had to be diverse as you want to appeal to as broad an audience as possible not to mention it's netflix FFS, pretty sure their employees have pronouns on their signatures, hell this new Harry Potter TV show will obviously be more diverse than the movies and I as a massive fan with 2 kids who are massive fans won't have a problem if they recast Hermione as a POC as again it gives it a wider appeal and would be a natural fit, what I do find issue is when they go full swing in the other direction as they did with the Acolyte where they just threw in every tick box DEI shite they could find.

The Witcher show has been mediocre in terms of financial success and that is partly down to DEI shite.

Harry Potter does not need it either. Hermione is not a 'POC' character. It's set in the UK, which was and still is, a mostly white European country.

Would you really complain if a Japanese, Korean, Indian, Nigerian, etc. show had only or almost entirely actors from their respective countries? No, no I doubt you would.

And before you have a go, I'm a 'BAME' (thank you DEI idiots for the trump card).

We don't need hacks who can't write a compelling story to save their lives to piggyback upon those who can and then butcher their work.

They should make their own stories and worlds if that's what they want. If they're good; then we'll watch them.

 

[jason10mm]

The Witcher show has been mediocre in terms of financial success and that is partly down to DEI shite.

See, I'm ok with the Yennifer actress, s1 she was banging, only with s2-3 did she suddenly become prudish.

And the Vilgefortt guy, he was ok. The Fringilla actress was just bad, regardless of her ethnicity her character was shit and the actress was a wooden stump.

But Triss, OH MY GOD, they took redhead PERFECTION and just fucked it sideways, no lube.

I could have forgiven the show more, but don't do my girl Triss like that.

Wheel of Time was similar. Were the actors to blame or the writing/directing? Why was the show so damn boring? Any CW tawdry soap drama has 100% hotter chicks and far more lively scripts on 1/10th the budget.

 

[Kacho]

Wow, I've been busy today so I'm just now seeing this. We really are healing aren't we?

 

[Toons]

This I feel the most with how many enjoy the Obi-Wan show because they get to see McGregor and Hayden Christensen together again. I grew up with the prequels, but I never thought they were on the level of the originals. They looked prettier and had cooler lightsaber fights, but that's mostly it. I also think CGI Clone Wars show is a 5/10 show overall. So this "pandering" to that audience isn't something I'm too fond of. With that said I also think the original trilogy era is overdone including the sequel trilogy. So while I'm a huge SW fan I don't agree with a big portion of the fanbase. I'd rather want something at a minimum of 100 years after the sequels or set in the KOTOR era.

So yeah, I agree with you,this really won't end well. They need story-telling visionaries who understand the heart and soul of whatever IP it is, someone who isn't obsessed with identity politics, but instead wishes to pull together great writers and creators to create unique stories in those universes. Someone who's inspired and knows the internal rules of the IP, but doesn't simply nostalgia bait the audience.

Star wars is the easiest example of this. Many fans have done a near or complete 180 on the prequels regardless of their feelings about the new stuff, nostalgia overtakes any perceived flaws that once were the cause of universal lampooning. If I time traveled back to 2005 and went on the internet and told everyone that on just 15 years you would all be BEGGING for George lucas to come back I would be laughed off of every site I found.

Its not just star wars of course, this has happened with star trek, its happened with many video games, and it happens with movies. All forms of art have a lifespan of constant change.. its reception evolves as the audience evolves, and any themes present either become more or less relevant when society changes to reflect it in some way. This practice of trying to please "fans" makes for at best, digestible but banal entertainment that doesnt do anything innovative, and at worst, still results in garbage that comes and goes and doesnt even have much of a life to live. I'll take a controversial movie that people csn talk about for years and years vs a generally well liked one that no one remembers 6 months after it came out.

 

[Toons]

We're in the pre-judging era because these entertainment entities focused on pushing bullshit identity politics and forced token DEI bullshit over delivering quality entertainment.

Nah, his post stands. You guys are now at the post having a playing female at all is somehow identity politics. And this isnt new either. Remmebr when the internet just "decided" abby was transgender? Because she was buff? Literslly just made it up and ran with it.

When that failed they started with the whole, oh everything you don't like is "woke" after they shoved the term down everyone's throat for years and now like to ask the whole "what does woke even mean?" rhetorical.

You get asked what it means for precisely the reason that its a problem. It means something different to everyone, and thats why this initiative won't work.

As if ruining a myriad of popular franchises and beloved stories and games weren't enough, when telling their core audiences "it's not for you" - when all of this backfired, rather than admit their faults they triple down and blame the core audience and consumer- not the extremely vocal minority who never showed up when they needed them.

In short (well long but whatever) fuck em.

They caused their own mess and everyone should be prejudging when it comes to entertainment until they prove it through actual art and story first, not their bullshit agendas and activism like we've seen everywhere for years.
It's on them to captivate an audience after burning all goodwill.

Even if all of this were true(its not), this isnt a solution to the problem. Prejudging media based on your own personal feelings(which is absolutely what this is) is just another form of activism, and it doesn't lead to better content, it leads to reactionary content and drawing lines in the sand where there needn't be any.(see what happened with hogwarts legacy, a game that is by every definition "woke" yet conservatives rallied around it simply because it was the opposition position of the far left individuals that had a problem with the franchise creator, yet a game like spider man two which has far far less potlical elements in it gets called woke)

There is absolutely not reason to be complaining about ghosts of yotei. This is a dev with a proven track record, doing soemthin that is completely normal for a video game and has happened for 30 years, and you have people digging through the internet looking for things to complain about to justify their predetermined bias against it. That isnt "criticism".

 

[Nostalgic Nightmare]

Nah, his post stands. You guys are now at the post having a playing female at all is somehow identity politics. And this isnt new either. Remmebr when the internet just "decided" abby was transgender? Because she was buff? Literslly just made it up and ran with it.



You get asked what it means for precisely the reason that its a problem. It means something different to everyone, and thats why this initiative won't work.



Even if all of this were true(its not), this isnt a solution to the problem. Prejudging media based on your own personal feelings(which is absolutely what this is) is just another form of activism, and it doesn't lead to better content, it leads to reactionary content and drawing lines in the sand where there needn't be any.(see what happened with hogwarts legacy, a game that is by every definition "woke" yet conservatives rallied around it simply because it was the opposition position of the far left individuals that had a problem with the franchise creator, yet a game like spider man two which has far far less potlical elements in it gets called woke)

There is absolutely not reason to be complaining about ghosts of yotei. This is a dev with a proven track record, doing soemthin that is completely normal for a video game and has happened for 30 years, and you have people digging through the internet looking for things to complain about to justify their predetermined bias against it. That isnt "criticism".

His post stands, but let's not pretend there isn't a reason it's come to this. Sure there are people that are going full stop culture war here to an extreme, but let's also leave room for nuance and also admit that everyone pre-judges just about everything in their lives from meeting people to buying groceries.
I'm not an activist if I take a wait and see approach and decide its authentic or not before buying a game or watching a show day one, I'm not unique as there are many cases of people doing the same which is affecting viewership and ultimately financials. No one is obligated to purchase or spend their time watching/playing this entertainment.
What is activism , are people leveraging new or existing entertainment vehicles to lace in their politics or morality. The entertainment industry is the least qualified to even claim to be arbiters of it, but when you're comprised of mostly narcissists - it's no surprise.
If you think what I said isn't true, that I'm just making this all up, you're being either disingenuous or are ignorant to the many examples (all over this board alone) I won't do anyone's homework either, you won't have to look far.
For the record, I have nothing against a female lead in a game or a movie - There are plenty great examples of both throughout time, and it would be absurd to discount something based on that (assuming it makes sense to the story).

The solution to all of this imo is create media that doesn't have to worry about breaking the feelings of an immeasurable fickle audience from the start and actually make good content. If it's good, it will stand out - especially now more than ever.
I feel like we agree there - as to your point , I loved GoT so I'm hoping GoY will be as good or better.

 

[LegendOfKage]

Anti-woke people are the only ones using the term.

Wrong. "stay woke" was a rallying cry of the left before it got turned on them.

Umm... Not exactly. It was mostly the black community that used the term. Not "the left". Now the term has been co-opted by others to mean something else.

All three of you are pretty much right. It started mostly in the black community to me "stay socially aware," but it seems there was also an element of being distrustful of power, government, media, etc.

Then everyone started to adopt it as a cool and trendy way to say "socially aware," but the power structures that could be criticized were considerably narrowed, and it was used a lot by those in power. This includes companies, universities, government officials, celebrities, media, highly paid consultants, etc.

Now we're in 3rd wave woke, where it's largely become a pejorative by those who are critical of that power. Amazon focusing their rings of power series on a worldview that shares considerably more in common with coastal elites rather than than the author of Lord of the Rings and the content in his book series comes to mind as an example that would be fitting with this thread.

 

[DKehoe]

Miyazaki is a god damn legend.

Yup. I'd rather he makes the film he wants to make rather than making the one he thinks me, or anyone else, wants from him. Making something as a form of personal expression is much more interesting to me than making it in a way to avoid offending a focus group.

All three of you are pretty much right. It started mostly in the black community to me "stay socially aware," but it seems there was also an element of being distrustful of power, government, media, etc.

Then everyone started to adopt it as a cool and trendy way to say "socially aware," but the power structures that could be criticized were considerably narrowed, and it was used a lot by those in power. This includes companies, universities, government officials, celebrities, media, highly paid consultants, etc.

Now we're in 3rd wave woke, where it's largely become a pejorative by those who are critical of that power. Amazon focusing their rings of power series on a worldview that shares considerably more in common with coastal elites rather than than the author of Lord of the Rings and the content in his book series comes to mind as an example that would be fitting with this thread.

In those terms there's also now a 4th wave. Where it's not longer just used by people really into identity politics to describe a piece of media they take issue with but now just gets used by people to mean something someone generally doesn't like. Like just this morning I saw this post by a person saying that playing football in a certain style is woke.

 

[LegendOfKage]

Yup. I'd rather he makes the film he wants to make rather than making the one he thinks me, or anyone else, wants from him. Making something as a form of personal expression is much more interesting to me than making it in a way to avoid offending a focus group.


In those terms there's also now a 4th wave. Where it's not longer just used by people really into identity politics to describe a piece of media they take issue with but now just gets used by people to mean something someone generally doesn't like. Like just this morning I saw this post by a person saying that playing football in a certain style is woke.

I would ask you to take a glance at this twitter thread (not just the first post) and tell me if you think everyone should stop using the word racist because a lot of people wouldn't agree with each and every one of these examples. This is primarily a parody account, but they also have a collection of articles like these. If you're arguing that woke has lost all meaning due to misuse, does the same go for the word racist? Or is a better course of action to generally try to avoid labels (unless you like it when people label you), and understand that labels are shorthand designations to concepts and specific examples that are always going to be debated?

I also find it funny that the first person to mention the word "woke" in this thread wasn't in the video, the OP (I generally avoid the word), or even someone in favor of these fan consultants. And now here we are being dragged into semantics again rather than discussing the merits of such a change, which I think is a much more interesting conversation.

Speaking of which, I'm in favor of studios trying this, but only to avoid going against established lore. I don't want fans writing the story, unless they have a successful history writing fiction.

People always mock the kids in the Simpsons focus group scene who want contradictory things that don't make sense, but those doing so in the defense of the studios often forget that the studio's ultimate response is to chase trends that they think people want without ever going outside their own bubble. Both can lead to issues, but we've been seeing a whole lot of the latter and almost none of the former lately. Maybe give the fans a chance.





There's even an example of toxic positivity in this scene:

 

[DKehoe]

I would ask you to take a glance at this twitter thread (not just the first post) and tell me if you think everyone should stop using the word racist because a lot of people wouldn't agree with each and every one of these examples. This is primarily a parody account, but they also have a collection of articles like these. If you're arguing that woke has lost all meaning due to misuse, does the same go for the word racist? Or is a better course of action to generally try to avoid labels (unless you like it when people label you), and understand that labels are shorthand designations to concepts and specific examples that are always going to be debated?

I never said people shouldn't use the word. You pointed out a way the use of the word has changed and I pointed out another. Not sure what the issue is there. Obviously people overuse the word racist and people overuse the word woke. But it doesn't mean the words should disappear. It's just that they become so commonly and poorly used they come to just mean "thing I don't like." You see it happening with other words too, not just those two. But if everyone stopped using those words then the same thing would just happen with others.

I also find it funny that the first person to mention the word "woke" in this thread wasn't in the video, the OP (I generally avoid the word), or even someone in favor of these fan consultants. And now here we are being dragged into semantics again rather than discussing the merits of such a change, which I think is a much more interesting conversation.

It gets mentioned in the article in the OP.

But yeh I'd rather discuss the idea itself. I've avoided a lot of film/tv discussion recently because the fixation on the extent to which something is or isn't woke is incredibly dull to me.

Speaking of which, I'm in favor of studios trying this, but only to avoid going against established lore. I don't want fans writing the story, unless they have a successful history writing fiction.

People always mock the kids in the Simpsons focus group scene who want contradictory things that don't make sense, but those doing so in the defense of the studios often forget that the studio's ultimate response is to chase trends that they think people want without ever going outside their own bubble. Both can lead to issues, but we've been seeing a whole lot of the latter and almost none of the former lately. Maybe give the fans a chance.





There's even an example of toxic positivity in this scene:

Leaning even deeper into franchises seems like a really boring way to go. But studios seem to think of it as the best way to guarantee box office returns, even at the point where they're no longer guaranteeing returns. In terms of getting outside the bubble, it'd be cool if the response to that was to try producing a wider variety of things rather than just getting deeper into mining the lore of existing franchises.

I guess we'll see how it turns out. Obviously focus groups aren't a new thing but, to me, leaning even more into that kind of thing doesn't sound like a good direction to head in. But like I said in an earlier post, these days it seems like a lot of people just want the same stuff, particularly things from their childhood, fed back to them. If people are dissatisfied with the latest Star Wars or whatever then I do hope they start looking outside of that stuff, because there's a bunch of great films and shows to enjoy. But sometimes I wonder if them getting annoyed at stuff is now the hobby in itself and looking to other, better, things wouldn't give them that.

The Poochie stuff came to mind for me too when imagining how it might go. So to use another couple Simpsons references perhaps we'll get the film and TV equivalents of this:

when they pander even further to these guys

 

[Elfstar]

I mean, these kind of overly safe focus groups will never be a good thing, but this is a reaction to terrible untalented fucking weirdos that costantly double down on making unappealing, unsuccessful and ip-harming products directed at imaginary audiences just to spite people they don't like on the internet.

 

[DeafTourette]

I get that they want to appeal to women in Star Wars BUT something like Jedi Survivor would most likely be the way to go. Men AND women who are powerful and serve similar roles or different roles. Like Kal's mentor is a woman but she never makes him feel less than ... And they SHOULD have made it CLEAR Finn had the Force instead of just hinting at it.

What made women fall for Star Wars is the same thing that made men fall for it. Luke and Leia and Vader and Han and Obi-Wan

 

[Cyberpunkd]

 

[Neon Xenon]

Studio marketing executives who talked with Variety agreed that the best defense against toxic fans is to avoid provoking them in the first place. In addition to standard focus group testing, studios will assemble a specialized cluster of superfans to assess possible marketing materials for a major franchise project.

Unless producers and marketing executives are actually willing to acknowledge and address how the writing behind these projects have done damage and given people reasons to expect low quality and that they're willing to course correct (which I doubt at this point), I see no reason to cheer.

I've said this before, and I'm going to say it again: The studios, producers, writers need to show, not tell.

 

[Shits_McGiggles]

These fan consultancy groups are just going to be the worst of the worst consoomers who will be nothing more than corporate yes-men overseen by the same people who are calling fanbases "toxic" for expressing their disdain for a product.
Nothing will change for the better and will only get worse.

 

[ZehDon]

Company A: "Here's a product not targeted at you."
Audience A: "Ok, message received, I won't buy that product."
Company A: "Why are you being toxic!"

Company B: "Here's a product we made to directly insult you."
Audience B: "I don't like that you insulted me."
Company B: "Why are you being toxic!"

Company C: "We bought something you liked and made a new product that has no resemblance to the prior products we didn't make."
Audience C: "I don't really like your new product."
Company C: "Why are you being toxic!"

Company D: "We bought something you liked and made a new product that insults you for liking the products we didn't make."
Audience D: "For obvious reasons, I don't like this."
Company D: "Why are you being toxic!"

Companies: "Why is there such a backlash from toxic people!"

If you need a fan focus group to avoid any of the above, then what you really need to do is clean up your house.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Company A: "Here's a product not targeted at you."
Audience A: "Ok, message received, I won't buy that product."
Company A: "Why are you being toxic!"

Company B: "Here's a product we made to directly insult you."
Audience B: "I don't like that you insulted me."
Company B: "Why are you being toxic!"

Company C: "We bought something you liked and made a new product that has no resemblance to the prior products we didn't make."
Audience C: "I don't really like your new product."
Company C: "Why are you being toxic!"

Company D: "We bought something you liked and made a new product that insults you for liking the products we didn't make."
Audience D: "For obvious reasons, I don't like this."
Company D: "Why are you being toxic!"

Companies: "Why is there such a backlash from toxic people!"

If you need a fan focus group to avoid any of the above, then what you really need to do is clean up your house.

Some industry employees are just stubborn. Media and entertainment are ones with some reason high egos thinking they are all Einstein.

It's a truly odd behaviour. In most companies, they do their best to make a good product that sells wells for an intended targeted audience. It can be a mainstream audience or a niche one. The product, price, and marketing will adjust to fit that product. If it stinks, it's back tor drawing board looking for feedback internally or from focus groups (assuming the company is big enough to spend money on that). And maybe try it again. Or relaunch a new product later with the fixes. You learn from your mistakes. No different than riding a bike. The goal is to do your best and improve next time.

Media however, will have giant budgets made by weird people with no focus. It clearly bombs which anyone could see coming, and they wonder why. Puzzling thought process. Echo chamber mania. It's like they learn nothing and just roll the dice hoping it does well.

 

[Wheeljack539]

Incel-chads just can't stop winning.

These companies have spent the past ten years (since GG) claiming that if they just doubled down and called people names then they would shape the landscape and public opinion. Well, the failures have finally started catching up to them. I still say don't call for it, screw these people.

The "modern audience" that they make these shows/movies for does not exist. If it did then they wouldn't be having these problems and the "toxic" parts of fandom would be a loud but inconsequential side. No one watches is or consistently watches and whatever merchandise they make doesn't move off the shelves.

 

[NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt]

All these companies should be listening to what fans actually want. That's not hard to do. But they keep on listening to a vocal minority who don't care about the product and just want to coopt it to spread their "Message". This isn't gonna to work since I think that lot of people including me know what they are trying to do. They better not be trying to sneak some of that shit in, because if they do they are just gonna to end up bankrupt. But the more I think about that, maybe it's better that way. Nothing last forever

I'm just tired of this shit especially with how they are trying to infest Japan and are somewhat succeeding

 

[chakadave]

I don't understand how a "selectied" focus group will contribute to better sales if y our product is still crap. Eventually the truth comes out.

 

[kingwingin]

Toxic fandom is a weird way to spell paying customer

 

[PSYGN]

That's genius! How did no one think of this before?!

 

[LegendOfKage]

Toxic fandom is a weird way to spell paying customer

It's studios and journalists calling these people toxic. But they'll call anyone toxic who disagrees with them and doesn't buy their products. Which ironically, is a pretty toxic thing to do.

 

[chokotoureiki]

Star Wars fans can be terrible but fortunately they are so loyal to the point where you can make a horrible film and they will still watch it bc....it's Star Wars.

Nintendo fans are among the worst though.

 

[kruis]

Company A: "Here's a product not targeted at you."
Audience A: "Ok, message received, I won't buy that product."
Company A: "Why are you being toxic!"

Company B: "Here's a product we made to directly insult you."
Audience B: "I don't like that you insulted me."
Company B: "Why are you being toxic!"

Company C: "We bought something you liked and made a new product that has no resemblance to the prior products we didn't make."
Audience C: "I don't really like your new product."
Company C: "Why are you being toxic!"

Company D: "We bought something you liked and made a new product that insults you for liking the products we didn't make."
Audience D: "For obvious reasons, I don't like this."
Company D: "Why are you being toxic!"

Companies: "Why is there such a backlash from toxic people!"

If you need a fan focus group to avoid any of the above, then what you really need to do is clean up your house.

There used to be a time that the customer was always right. Now he's not just wrong, but toxic, an incel, far right, etc etc. When do these people realize that WE are the ones who control the purse strings, not they?

 

[MisterFalcon]

There used to be a time that the customer was always right. Now he's not just wrong, but toxic, an incel, far right, etc etc. When do these people realize that WE are the ones who control the purse strings, not they?

If this is the case, where is the company making billions on producing what 'we' apparently all want?

 

[Psychostar]

I personally have no issues with diversity. My issues come with abuse of the source material.

As an example, If you make a new spider-man movie and peter parker is suddenly not a white geek male, you've lost my attention. It's like saying Hitler was Indian. It doesn't make sense.

The best way to include diversity is to create new cool characters. I love Miles Morales as much as I love Peter and I look forward to consuming both characters contents when they come out. That's how you do it right.

I dislike when they race and gender swap characters.

Harry potter should never become Harrietta Potter for example. It's just dumb and neither should he suddenly become part of the LGBTQ+ community or suddenly be made to be Italian either while we're at it. That's just not what the source material portrayed him as. Let other cool characters be created that can proudly represent the people of the world.
A horse is not a bird and a bird is not a fish.

 

[LegendOfKage]

I never said people shouldn't use the word. You pointed out a way the use of the word has changed and I pointed out another. Not sure what the issue is there. Obviously people overuse the word racist and people overuse the word woke. But it doesn't mean the words should disappear. It's just that they become so commonly and poorly used they come to just mean "thing I don't like." You see it happening with other words too, not just those two. But if everyone stopped using those words then the same thing would just happen with others.

We agree about pretty much everything here. Sorry if I made an assumption that was wrong. I just think if you're suggesting a "forth wave of woke" it sounds like the 3rd one is over, rather than the obvious fact that of course people are going to misuse labels and argue about their relevance. It seemed like you were minimizing the complaints and criticisms against studios.

Leaning even deeper into franchises seems like a really boring way to go. But studios seem to think of it as the best way to guarantee box office returns, even at the point where they're no longer guaranteeing returns. In terms of getting outside the bubble, it'd be cool if the response to that was to try producing a wider variety of things rather than just getting deeper into mining the lore of existing franchises.

I guess we'll see how it turns out. Obviously focus groups aren't a new thing but, to me, leaning even more into that kind of thing doesn't sound like a good direction to head in. But like I said in an earlier post, these days it seems like a lot of people just want the same stuff, particularly things from their childhood, fed back to them. If people are dissatisfied with the latest Star Wars or whatever then I do hope they start looking outside of that stuff, because there's a bunch of great films and shows to enjoy. But sometimes I wonder if them getting annoyed at stuff is now the hobby in itself and looking to other, better, things wouldn't give them that.

The Poochie stuff came to mind for me too when imagining how it might go. So to use another couple Simpsons references perhaps we'll get the film and TV equivalents of this:

Again, it will all depend on how the studios treat these fan focus groups, and what they allow them to influence.

The right way: "You have orcs depicted as families concerned about going to war, but in Lord of the Rings they're all male, and they're basically pure evil pulled out of the ground and exist only to kill. So maybe don't do that."

The wrong way: "I don't care about the orcs or whatever, but you know what Rings of Power season 3 really needs? Legolas! How cool would that be! You can use a timewarp spell and Legolas could lead the good guys for the whole season!"

 

[Mr Reasonable]

Posted in wrong thread.

 

[Dev1lXYZ]

The studios haven't gotten desperate yet. I expect they will in the next year or two. Warner is on its death bed and Disney is starting to worry because they can't do anything right.

Speaking of Warner movies, Salem's Lot on MAX. Oof. The original is also available to stream on the same service at the same time.

Gotta cover all the bases, I guess.