Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U Thread XI: Where 90% correct equals 100% wrong
- Thread starter IntelliHeath
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I think its a South Park reference.
Troubled Bat
Member
That's Loco.
do not tempt me dammit, i want to sleep.
Alright, alright. Fine.
So you start up Melee, what's the first thing you see? It's a statue of Mario, and then you see some weird technical magic sort of shit crawl up it bring it to life. Then you got the cool intro movie, and you never hear the song again until next time you play the game. The title fades in, then followed by the technical magic circles that presumably is what crawled up Mario and everyone else and turned them from figures into fighters. And this is how the whole menu is themed, with that sort of technical stuff. Everything looks very digital, you got circles that look like the circles crawling up the trophies in the background. It's cool. You don't really notice it, because it's not like distracting and it's kinda subtle, but at the same time your brain kind of does. So whenever you're navigating the menus and stuff, it feels like you're just setting shit up to bring the characters to life. It's really fucking cool to me, and it's something I feel the whole game was really well themed around. When you start a match or die, the fighters arrive on platforms that look like that technical magic shit. When you play on Battlefield or Final Destination, they look like stages made out of that technical magic shit. And when you play the multiman melees, the enemies look like that technical magic shit. It's really well themed around it in my opinions. Sure, there's no symbols or fun shapes in the menu, but it's still really clear where to go, because the text is really clear on where to go.
Also, and this is more of a sidething-I like the way the character select screen isn't perfectly even rows. It's cluttered and busy, and suggests a game with more going on in it by being busy. And that's good for a fighting game, to feel busy like that, because it's pretty fuckin' action packed.
Now, the other thing about Melee, is that I feel it's more cohesive, and this is because it's the first time seeing almost every character in this game is being seen in good 3D for their first time. So, instead of having to build the game around artstyles used in other games, or even being able to reference artstyles in games that lookes as good as gamecube games, they have to build a lot more shit from scratch. And because of that, they were able to build it around a more cohesive, semi-realistic (but not overly realistic) artstyle. And this shines through the whole game. The artstyle feels a lot more like 20 characters being imagined in the same universe for their first time, and it really blends well together.
Now, let's compare this to Brawl-not really 64, because I'll be completely honest, I don't really play 64 often. Brawl feels like it has two different artstyles heavily conflicting with eachother-a really cartoony one, and a really realistic one. The menus, a lot of the music, some stages (the Animal Crossing, Electroplankton, and Pictochat ones, for example), and many of the characters look like they were going in a more cartoony and relaxed direction. Yet, at the same time, the main theme, the SSE, some stages, and some of the characters look like they're going in a much, much more serious, realistic direction. And it just sort of conflicts for me. Some of Brawl feels like a serious, action-packed game, and others feel like a more relaxed, more fun game. And while I like both, and both are absolutely fine things to have, I don't feel they work very well together.
Also, another side point, fuck the Brawl theme. It mismatches the menus horribly. It worked as the game's opening (except it didn't feel right to match it along a montage of clips from the game instead of its own CGI video), as a theme remixed into other parts of the game, and as the ending theme to the SSE. It does not work as a theme you hear repeatedly and constantly. It's meant to be epic, a celebration, like "holy shit, look at all these characters coming together." And, I mean, Melee's main theme is too. But it's actually effective in doing that because Melee's you only hear once every time you play the game. Brawl's you hear 1/3rd of the time you go to the menu, and every time you go to the character select screen, so it loses that effect of being epic, and turns into you wanting the people singing to stop fucking singing.
NOW, in comparison to PSAllStars Battle Royale...there's just no theming in the entire game. It's never explained if it takes place in the same universe, or if the character's are all in a non-canon entry, or fucking anything, and the menus, while also being a list like Melee, do not feel busy at all, do not match the theme of the game at all, and do not in any way get you pumped to start playing a game. Going through them looks like selecting tasks from your computer with a static image of a game character you might like in the background.
Anyways, I've rambled on for a bit, and I'm sure you'll have counterpoints. But this is really why I feel Melee is a more cohesive game, art and music wise, than Brawl (and especially PSASBR).
EDIT:
Thought of a pre-emptive counter point.
So Brawl's menu is more interesting than Melee's, in terms of spacing and icons, but I don't think it works well with the half of the game that's really realistic and serious looking. Melee's really technical looking, and so the list looks more computerized, which, while maybe more boring looking in terms of icons and shapes and spacing, ends up fitting the theme of the game better. Plus, the really busy backgrounds to the menus help the computerized theme to feel exciting and get you pumped up for a match.
?
It follows the same structure:
START
->List with submenus opens
1-P Mode
-> Regular Match
->...
-> Event Match
->...
-> Stadium
->...
-> Training
->...
VS-Mode
->.....
->....
You have a preview on the sub-menus on the right side of the screen, but that doesn't change the fact that the submenus themselves are just boring lists.
Zevenberge
Member
Smash 4 to be doomed by the competitive community if that were true. Thinking about it, that also goes if that were not true.
Mysterious
Banned
How do we know this?
Well....
Believe me I am lol.
Pop-O-Matic
Banned
Brawl's menus also follow that same structure.
Wait, the two have been working together since before Smash 64?
God damn, the fact that one of Sakurai's signature game design elements came from someone who he's worked with for the entire length of his most recognized game series and then eventually married is too damn sweet lol.
I wonder how long they've had the cat for, though.
Basically every menu ever folows that structure. It's the presentation I call boring. Just list after list after list
do not tempt me dammit, i want to sleep.
Alright, alright. Fine.
So you start up Melee, what's the first thing you see? It's a statue of Mario, and then you see some weird technical magic sort of shit crawl up it bring it to life
That sparkly ring of light doesn't look very "techy" to me
Then you got the cool intro movie, and you never hear the song again until next time you play the game. The title fades in, then followed by the technical magic circles that presumably is what crawled up Mario and everyone else and turned them from figures into fighters.
What brought Mario etc to life was a white ring of light, these are fine color-changing lines.
And this is how the whole menu is themed, with that sort of technical stuff. Everything looks very digital, you got circles that look like the circles crawling up the trophies in the background.
Which imo doesn't fit the vibe the opening gives. After seeing the opening "techno" certainly was close to the least I expected to follow
It's cool. You don't really notice it, because it's not like distracting and it's kinda subtle, but at the same time your brain kind of does. So whenever you're navigating the menus and stuff, it feels like you're just setting shit up to bring the characters to life. It's really fucking cool to me, and it's something I feel the whole game was really well themed around. When you start a match or die, the fighters arrive on platforms that look like that technical magic shit. When you play on Battlefield or Final Destination, they look like stages made out of that technical magic shit. And when you play the multiman melees, the enemies look like that technical magic shit. It's really well themed around it in my opinions.
I'll give you that. After the opening the game stays pretty consistant with the techno style. Which is the whole reason I called the Menu design of Melee boring in the first place
Sure, there's no symbols or fun shapes in the menu, but it's still really clear where to go, because the text is really clear on where to go.
Also, and this is more of a sidething-I like the way the character select screen isn't perfectly even rows. It's cluttered and busy, and suggests a game with more going on in it by being busy. And that's good for a fighting game, to feel busy like that, because it's pretty fuckin' action packed.
Now, the other thing about Melee, is that I feel it's more cohesive, and this is because it's the first time seeing almost every character in this game is being seen in good 3D for their first time. So, instead of having to build the game around artstyles used in other games, or even being able to reference artstyles in games that lookes as good as gamecube games, they have to build a lot more shit from scratch. And because of that, they were able to build it around a more cohesive, semi-realistic (but not overly realistic) artstyle. And this shines through the whole game. The artstyle feels a lot more like 20 characters being imagined in the same universe for their first time, and it really blends well together.
Can't say I agree with this point. Your implication here is that the cast of SSBB doesn't follow a cohesive artyle, which I don't think is true when SSBB (especially during the time before PSASBR released, but also already before) was praised for managing to include even characters like Solid Snake in the game without them looking completely out of place and fitting into the artstyle nicely. I also think that Melee was targeting about the same amount of (let's call it like that, although I hate that word) "grittyness" as Brawl and was just limited by being a launch game on weaker hardware, it just couldn't display finer details and as a result the characters look more like plastic toys. But when you look at the actual colors also, they (take Samus for example, dark orange and bulky suit) are much closer to Brawl than to SSB4 (most colorful SSB game by far) and (also see points below) the stages reflect it as well. The perfect example is the Adventure Mode Legend of Zelda stage, which is more serius in design than anything SSBB has to offer
Now, let's compare this to Brawl-not really 64, because I'll be completely honest, I don't really play 64 often. Brawl feels like it has two different artstyles heavily conflicting with eachother-a really cartoony one, and a really realistic one. The menus, a lot of the music, some stages (the Animal Crossing, Electroplankton, and Pictochat ones, for example), and many of the characters look like they were going in a more cartoony and relaxed direction. Yet, at the same time, the main theme, the SSE, some stages, and some of the characters look like they're going in a much, much more serious, realistic direction. And it just sort of conflicts for me. Some of Brawl feels like a serious, action-packed game, and others feel like a more relaxed, more fun game. And while I like both, and both are absolutely fine things to have, I don't feel they work very well together.
That exact same criticism could be made of Melee as well. You have the very serious menu design, serious stage design (Battlefield, Temple, Venom, Brinstar (Depths)...) with appropiatly serious OST...and then you have stages like Pokefloats. This clash is just grounded in the original series of these contents. The only real big clash is indeed SSE, which is arguably the biggest flaw of Brawl, although even for SSE you could argue that accompanying the introduction of alien invaders which want to make the Smash Bros. world their own with a more serious artstyle in those parts is fitting.
Also, another side point, fuck the Brawl theme. It mismatches the menus horribly. It worked as the game's opening (except it didn't feel right to match it along a montage of clips from the game instead of its own CGI video), as a theme remixed into other parts of the game, and as the ending theme to the SSE. It does not work as a theme you hear repeatedly and constantly. It's meant to be epic, a celebration, like "holy shit, look at all these characters coming together."
That's entirely subjective. To me the menu remix of the SSBB main theme doesn't feel like it's trying to replicate the epicness of the opening version, with the different instruments and missing vocals it feels far more upbeat, which I think fits the overall menu design.
And, I mean, Melee's main theme is too. But it's actually effective in doing that because Melee's you only hear once every time you play the game. Brawl's you hear 1/3rd of the time you go to the menu, and every time you go to the character select screen, so it loses that effect of being epic, and turns into you wanting the people singing to stop fucking singing.
Pretty sure the Menu remix of the opening doesn't have any vocals.
NOW, in comparison to PSAllStars Battle Royale...there's just no theming in the entire game. It's never explained if it takes place in the same universe, or if the character's are all in a non-canon entry, or fucking anything, and the menus, while also being a list like Melee, do not feel busy at all, do not match the theme of the game at all, and do not in any way get you pumped to start playing a game. Going through them looks like selecting tasks from your computer with a static image of a game character you might like in the background.
Anyways, I've rambled on for a bit, and I'm sure you'll have counterpoints. But this is really why I feel Melee is a more cohesive game, art and music wise, than Brawl (and especially PSASBR).
EDIT:
Thought of a pre-emptive counter point.
So Brawl's menu is more interesting than Melee's, in terms of spacing and icons, but I don't think it works well with the half of the game that's really realistic and serious looking. Melee's really technical looking, and so the list looks more computerized, which, while maybe more boring looking in terms of icons and shapes and spacing, ends up fitting the theme of the game better. Plus, the really busy backgrounds to the menus help the computerized theme to feel exciting and get you pumped up for a match.
Zevenberge
Member
I have yet to see a game that does not follow that structure. It does not mean that all those games have exactly the same visuals.
To me, Brawl's and Kid Icarus' interface look very lively, while menus from Tekken - which are mainly lists - are quite boring. Also, plus points for being able to drag the icons over the screen in Kid Icarus.
Also, when talking about Uprising, why would the team have such a difficulty designing the bottom screen when going from menu item to menu item? It is done in a lot of (3)DS and Wii U games already, including Sakurai's own Uprising, so I don't get why Sakurai would stress that it is hard. Well, maybe I would if I would see it in motion, as I silently assumed that the bottom screen is just a static picture.
God I just wanna play as Robin already. Not even gonna lie. At least I got to mess around with Little Mac at Smash fest, but Robin has quickly become my second most hyped newcomer.
He/She looks so damn fun. Still holding out hope I can customize him to look like my guy though.
My dream is that I could replace the name Robin with MU's name, "Toller" on the CSS even. I know it'll never happen, but I honestly thought Robin in general would never happen.
EDIT : Nah....it really will never happen. But please let him have a long green hair alt/customization option.
He/She looks so damn fun. Still holding out hope I can customize him to look like my guy though.
My dream is that I could replace the name Robin with MU's name, "Toller" on the CSS even. I know it'll never happen, but I honestly thought Robin in general would never happen.
EDIT : Nah....it really will never happen. But please let him have a long green hair alt/customization option.
I absolutely love a lot of things about Brawl. Trust me, I do not bash everything about it. In fact, I think it does some things better than Melee. But there's a lot (menu design, artstyle, items, pacing) that I don't like about it. It, to me at least, feels like a project that started out as a sequel to Melee, but then decided it wanted to be more of a party game, and didn't end up doing either one to the best of its abilities. Which is why I'm really excited for Smash 4. Despite being paced closer to Melee, it feels like it's trying to differentiate itself from Melee a lot more than Brawl did.
I like Brawl much better as a game, and I think Melee has aged quite poorly, visually speaking, but honestly, so has Brawl at this point. I can agree that Melee was much more cohesive visually instead of feeling sort of slapped together (even though...Luigi is literally just a Green Mario in Melee...)
Looking back on Brawl is so weird. I was so impressed with how the game looked when it came out, but it's seriously kind of ugly. Mario is only a few steps away from looking like one of those Mario In Real Life photoshops. It's so...drab. If you told me they were given Twilight Princess models and assets at the start of development and just worked around those characters/environments to make everything else fit those, I could believe it.
Melee isn't innocent of being a little too "real," but as was said it was more consistent. The colorful, vibrant look Smash 4 has going for it is absolutely a direction the series needed to take.
I don't really like Brawl's menus, but I'm more just annoyed that nothing changed. This is a new Smash game, I shouldn't feel like I'm looking at the same concepts as the last one.
Freezie KO
Banned
Ha. Thank you for this. I can't stand the Brawl theme. It seems so over-the-top trying to be epic. And it plays way too often.
I just want to pause on Lucina and flood my Miiverse feed with various images
Need to get your Miiverse name to follow....
Just the idea of aerial smash attacks alone sounds so damn fun.
Pop-O-Matic
Banned
New box art.
Why do people want her "cut"? How would Sakurai feel in that relationship? The game took his hands but he has to lose something else.
I use to think that Sakurai was single but he is good at making people wait.
I shouldn't be making late night jokes
DICKS AHOY
Banned
where's the game of the year edition
peanutbutterlatte
Member
No it's much more exciting to debate menu design.
Xane
Member
After Taranza, maybe I have a chance of it.
Are you CC in disguise?
Can't they become his cat instead? I am sure he has a soft spot.
I think a large part of the shittty look is because of the low res output from the Wii. The game looks pretty good through something like Dolphin.
Not a scratch on Smash 4 though. Nintendo's Wii U art direction is amazing. Miles ahead of everything
Freezie KO
Banned
The menu looks fine. I dont know what people expect the menu screen is suppose to look like?
It doesn't look bland or uninteresting, quite the opposite imo. Yes it's like brawl but UI design wasn't one of brawls cons...
It's suppose to be animated too, so that's another nice touch and attention to detail to a game that's already teething with detail.
It doesn't look bland or uninteresting, quite the opposite imo. Yes it's like brawl but UI design wasn't one of brawls cons...
It's suppose to be animated too, so that's another nice touch and attention to detail to a game that's already teething with detail.
Pop-O-Matic
Banned
I've got to wonder what his reaction was to Street Fighter IV and the fighting game revival that came in it's wake.
Freezie KO
Banned
In the spirit of generosity, I hope that he went back and realized his mistakes. Or at the very least, I hope he learned that Captain Falcon isn't from StarFox.
That was my favorite part of that review.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
Was a fighter being 2D really considered that laughable back in the late 90's just because Tekken was popular? What about Street Fighter III?
Just seems like a dumb aspect to focus on if you're going the whole SMASH IS BABBY'S FIRST FIGHTING GAME argument
Pop-O-Matic
Banned
Street Fighter III was generally trashed on back then, both from the "EVERYTHING MUST BE IN 3D NOW" crowd and Street Fighter II purists. I mean, 3rd Strike was dropped from Battle By the Bay B5 (aka EVO 2001), and didn't show back up again until two years later.
Freezie KO
Banned
When an article takes the tone of all-knowing, condescending superiority, it makes the inaccuracies that much sweeter.
MaverickHunterAsh
Member
So I got lucky on my lunch break today at SDCC and got to run over to the Marriott and play five Smash Wii U matches in a row. A few more quick impressions/thoughts to add to the ones I posted earlier:
Mega Man - I'm only now beginning to realize just how vitally important spacing is with Mega Man, more so than with a lot of characters. Especially when using his Charge Shot, you have to try your best to space yourself such that you'll be able to let loose a fully (or almost fully) charged shot. Any shot charged less than halfway really doesn't do enough damage and knockback to (a) be worth the effort and (b) not easily be punished, so going in close for a quick, non-charged forward smash with Mega Man REALLY isn't an option. The only good forward smash with Mega Man is one that's performed from a distance and charged up to at least 75% or so (preferably 100%), but MAN is it worth it.
I also got two more off-the-top-of-the-screen KOs with the Air Shooter. Seriously such a good move.
Kirby - An interesting change that I only noticed now that I'd classify as a slight nerf, despite his generally being buffed: his B-side (Hammer) takes quite a lot longer to come out and launch now, meaning one of my favorite Brawl tactics with Kirby -- short hop -> Hammer -- isn't nearly as viable anymore. I tried it several times and it just takes too much longer to come out now for it to catch most players by surprise, or even be possible to do during a short hop in a lot of instances.
Rosalina & Luma - All of her smash attacks seem to have exceedingly short range, especially her forward smash. You really need to be close to an opponent to hit them with one. Other than that, I have not been able to even begin figuring out how to use/control the Luma effectively, but I somehow still won the match in which I played as her!
More quick thoughts/impressions later on if/when I'm able to get away from the UDON booth for a little bit!
MrMacintosh, from Thread 10:
Great analysis.
Were the OG 3DS controls comfortable, and could you see yourself playing it for hours without much pain? I'm worried about my hands getting too sore to play much more then an hour or so.
Thanks!
I will say that the OG 3DS controls were significantly less comfortable than playing the game on a 3DS XL. I could see myself comfortably playing the game for hours on an XL... not so much on the OG 3DS. I definitely see hand cramps happening. But it sure does look gorgeous on that higher-density screen...
Works for me! Different strokes and all that.
Mega Man - I'm only now beginning to realize just how vitally important spacing is with Mega Man, more so than with a lot of characters. Especially when using his Charge Shot, you have to try your best to space yourself such that you'll be able to let loose a fully (or almost fully) charged shot. Any shot charged less than halfway really doesn't do enough damage and knockback to (a) be worth the effort and (b) not easily be punished, so going in close for a quick, non-charged forward smash with Mega Man REALLY isn't an option. The only good forward smash with Mega Man is one that's performed from a distance and charged up to at least 75% or so (preferably 100%), but MAN is it worth it.
I also got two more off-the-top-of-the-screen KOs with the Air Shooter. Seriously such a good move.
Kirby - An interesting change that I only noticed now that I'd classify as a slight nerf, despite his generally being buffed: his B-side (Hammer) takes quite a lot longer to come out and launch now, meaning one of my favorite Brawl tactics with Kirby -- short hop -> Hammer -- isn't nearly as viable anymore. I tried it several times and it just takes too much longer to come out now for it to catch most players by surprise, or even be possible to do during a short hop in a lot of instances.
Rosalina & Luma - All of her smash attacks seem to have exceedingly short range, especially her forward smash. You really need to be close to an opponent to hit them with one. Other than that, I have not been able to even begin figuring out how to use/control the Luma effectively, but I somehow still won the match in which I played as her!
More quick thoughts/impressions later on if/when I'm able to get away from the UDON booth for a little bit!
MrMacintosh, from Thread 10:
Great analysis.
Were the OG 3DS controls comfortable, and could you see yourself playing it for hours without much pain? I'm worried about my hands getting too sore to play much more then an hour or so.
Thanks!
I will say that the OG 3DS controls were significantly less comfortable than playing the game on a 3DS XL. I could see myself comfortably playing the game for hours on an XL... not so much on the OG 3DS. I definitely see hand cramps happening. But it sure does look gorgeous on that higher-density screen...
Works for me! Different strokes and all that.
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