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[superNESjoe]

I feel like you're secretly-not-so-secretly talking about me in regard to my Mega Man post earlier today, at least partially? I actually completely agree with you; I was just trying to vocally push back against some of what I feel is inaccurate, premature speculation that Mega Man is crap, based on my playing the hell out of him over the course of couple hours (collectively) at E3 and Comic-Con. I shouldn't have used tier discussion to do it, though, because you're right - discussing tiers at this point at all is silly.

I wasn't actually. Perhaps I went about my post in the wrong way as well. It's not the discussion about movesets being broken down that irked me, it's the discussions about the definitive placement of characters and balance. And since I know you'll be reading this, let me tell you now that I'm a fan of the channel.

A ten page discussion about why Mega Man isn't crap, or the potential of his moveset, or how he stacks up in the current build is entirely different than "BLANK character is middle tier, BLANK character is the best in the game". Those definitive placements are so arbitrary, and will continue to be so for years after the game is out.

 

[Exotoro]

No I'd be kind of bothered if he is in, thats truly a scraping the bottom of the barrel. Even K rool should be in Smash before someone like Duck Hunt Dog. Never mind half the assist trophies like Dark Samus, Takamaru, Saku, Starfy, etc should all be playable before that stupid dog.

 

[NeonZ]

We have only 27 PotDs remaining until launch. 26 stages have been announced when Brawl had 41. 36 characters have been announced, and we are missing about 10 vets + any possible newcomers.

Sakurai...

Brawl had 12 characters only officially unveiled post-launch, most of them returning veterans, alongside 11 stages. There was no reason to believe that we'd get everything before launch this time, especially with the picture of the day format leading to less information than the old daily updates.

 

[Makai]

It's (mostly) baseless speculation. People discussing it don't treat it like it's speculation either, they word things in a very matter-of-fact way, as if they have some sort of insight from their time watching videos or perhaps playing an hour or two of the game at some event.

Melee took years to be dissected into what it is today, as did Brawl. There is absolutely zero reason to be discussing something so decisive as tiers and balance in a game that isn't out and has only been played individually for a handful of hours. Everyone is an armchair developer every time a new game comes out, at the very least it'd be nice to prolong that attitude until after the game comes out.

TL;DR? It's just silly. Speculate about something that isn't baseless, like Duck Hunt Dog and Ridley. I'd take another 400 pages of "Ridley is too big" over "Bowser isn't top tier he's mid-tier at best".

But I'm tired of talking about Ridley.

I wanna talk about something with more substance. And for what it's worth, characters may move up and down, but the coarse structure of tier lists is generally stable. The first Melee tier list from October 2002 is certainly recognizable, with only a few major mismatches. December 2002 is pretty close to the one we have today.

Anyway, it's easier to gauge the veterans than the newcomers. Of the veterans, the following are surely better than average.

Zero Suit Samus
Sheik
Marth
Mario
Luigi

The Mario Bros in particular look like comboville

 

[Exotoro]

So for the next smash bros game suppose Sakurai gives the directing job to someone else. Who would that be?

 

[SuperAngelo64]

Slightly off-topic. But as the new Smash release date approaches I've been going through some PMs from the Dojo days.

Jiggy, The Haunted, Zeed, A Link To The Snitch, Crushed, Firestorm, MrCheez! I salute you all! I would've added ShockingAlberto to the list but I think he's still sniffing around. Maybe we can organize a DojoGAF-veterans Brawl post-mortem tourney when the new Smash releases?

 

[superNESjoe]

No I'd be kind of bothered if he is in, thats truly a scraping the bottom of the barrel. Even K rool should be in Smash before someone like Duck Hunt Dog. Never mind half the assist trophies like Dark Samus, Takamaru, Saku, Starfy, etc should all be playable before that stupid dog.

None of which would be more recognizable than Duck Hunt Dog. Just playing devil's advocate here, but any person 25 or older who grew up with a Nintendo had Duck Hunt. Nearly every person who owned or played NES had or had played Duck Hunt. What's the universal part of Duck Hunt everyone remembers? That bastard dog and the way he laughed at you.

K. Rool is a given, but you put Takamaru in the game and the vast majority of Smash players will have no clue who that is. Duck Hunt Dog could be a great "unexpected retro gag" character that would actually be recognizable by a ton of people. Few people remembered Ice Climbers, a ton of people will remember that stupid dog and love the chance to beat the crap out of him.

 

[tim_pkmn89]

So for the next smash bros game suppose Sakurai gives the directing job to someone else. Who would that be?

Alfonzo

 

[Geminosity]

A ton of people will remember that stupid dog and love the chance to beat the crap out of him.

I'd rather they add characters people actually want to play rather than ones they just want to torture. Heck, why not make the duck-hunt dog an unlockable skin for the sandbag instead? ;D

 

[Makai]

A ten page discussion about why Mega Man isn't crap, or the potential of his moveset, or how he stacks up in the current build is entirely different than "BLANK character is middle tier, BLANK character is the best in the game". Those definitive placements are so arbitrary, and will continue to be so for years after the game is out.

The former is certainly more interesting, but it's hard to get that ball rolling when people are resistant to discussion or even reject the idea of tiers outright. I thought I was specific with Bowser. He's always been low tier because he's a slow character. A lot of people seem to think he's good because his Down-B breaks shields, but an experienced player will just run out of the way and counterattack. He's definitely better than before, but top tier is a huge stretch.

 

[HawthorneKitty]

I'd rather they add characters people actually want to play rather than ones they just want to torture. Heck, why not make the duck-hunt dog an unlockable skin for the sandbag instead? ;D

Because he's not even worthy of that role.

 

[Diprosalic]

An update on:

Should I vote on who's my favourite character or the one i like to play the most in Smash?
That's a huge difference. (and varies for each version)

 

[BassForever]

None of which would be more recognizable than Duck Hunt Dog. Just playing devil's advocate here, but any person 25 or older who grew up with a Nintendo had Duck Hunt.

In North America where it was bundled, and only with people who had an NES that came with it bundled. The vast majority of Smash players are probably too young to remember that heck I'M too young to remember that am I'm 24, I didn't play duck hunt until years later. Never mind in Japan/Europe where I'm pretty sure the game wasn't bundled with the system. So basically the only group that has any kind of nostalgia for the character are kids who had the NES in the 80's in the US and nobody else

 

[Makai]

In North America where it was bundled, and only with people who had an NES that came with it bundled. The vast majority of Smash players are probably too young to remember that heck I'M too young to remember that am I'm 24, I didn't play duck hunt until years later. Never mind in Japan/Europe where I'm pretty sure the game wasn't bundled with the system. So basically the only group that has any kind of nostalgia for the character are kids who had the NES in the 80's in the US and nobody else

We got ROB, though.

 

[Exotoro]

In North America where it was bundled, and only with people who had an NES that came with it bundled. The vast majority of Smash players are probably too young to remember that heck I'M too young to remember that am I'm 24, I didn't play duck hunt until years later. Never mind in Japan/Europe where I'm pretty sure the game wasn't bundled with the system. So basically the only group that has any kind of nostalgia for the character are kids who had the NES in the 80's in the US and nobody else

still a million times more recognizable than the fuckin' ice climbers

 

[Red Arremer]

I think Europe did have a bundle option for NES + Duck Hunt, but it wasn't the main one.

 

[Quadaess Suikun]

In North America where it was bundled, and only with people who had an NES that came with it bundled. The vast majority of Smash players are probably too young to remember that heck I'M too young to remember that am I'm 24, I didn't play duck hunt until years later. Never mind in Japan/Europe where I'm pretty sure the game wasn't bundled with the system. So basically the only group that has any kind of nostalgia for the character are kids who had the NES in the 80's in the US and nobody else

In Europe (or at least Spain) NES was bundled with Mario+Duck Hunt+Zapper, so while maybe not everyone knows that dog, much more people than what you think played his game.

 

[JoeInky]

tiers are fucking stupid anyway

In what way?

Please don't tell me you seriously believe that every character played at the same skill level is on equal-footing?

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Hidden confirmation of multiple Pokeballs at the same time, which we hadn't seen yet.

 

[Makai]

In what way?

Please don't tell me you seriously believe that every character played at the same skill level is on equal-footing?

I would say that matchups are a better way of looking at characters than tiers, but tiers are good shorthand regardless. That's likely not where they're coming from, though.

 

[superNESjoe]

In North America where it was bundled, and only with people who had an NES that came with it bundled. The vast majority of Smash players are probably too young to remember that heck I'M too young to remember that am I'm 24, I didn't play duck hunt until years later. Never mind in Japan/Europe where I'm pretty sure the game wasn't bundled with the system. So basically the only group that has any kind of nostalgia for the character are kids who had the NES in the 80's in the US and nobody else

As others have said, it wasn't just the US. Even then, it's way more people than those that would be familiar with ROB or Ice Climbers. I'm 25 and I remember Duck Hunt vividly, as do my friends my age that I grew up gaming with. I think the main thing is your age and if you had the NES as a kid (or access to one).

If they do a WTF retro character, I'm just arguing that Dog makes more sense and would be more recognized than Ice Climbers, ROB, or Game and Watch were.

I'd rather they add characters people actually want to play rather than ones they just want to torture.

For what it's worth, I really want to play him.

 

[JoeInky]

I would say that matchups are a better way of looking at characters than tiers, but tiers are good shorthand regardless. That's likely not where they're coming from, though.

But tiers are based on matchups, are they not?


I mean, yes it is better to look at an individual characters matchups to see how well they stack up against particular characters instead of just some position on a list, if that's what you were meaning. But that's clearly not what the other poster meant.

 

[Makai]

For what it's worth, I really want to play him.

Me too. I love goofy characters and if the other newcomers are any indicator, he'd have a creative moveset.

 

[tonyh24613]

Pic of the day. Victini and Xerneas are both support Pokémon. Victini's Victory Star boosts the attack of whoever throws the Poké Ball, and also prevents flinching. Xerneas's Geomancy increases the launch power of all fighters, but exceptionally raises it for whoever had the Poké Ball.

Interesting.

 

[JoeInky]

If they do a WTF retro character, I'm just arguing that Dog makes more sense and would be more recognized than Ice Climbers, ROB, or Game and Watch were.

As a general rule, yeah sure, but I actually played Game and Watch games before I got my own NES and I've still never played Duck Hunt.


I do want the Dog in though, not trying to argue against the fact necessarily.

 

[Exotoro]

honestly don't listen to me whenever I have something to say about the competitive side of smash since obviously I'm not informed about it nor do I really care to be informed about it

 

[georly]

Hidden confirmation of multiple Pokeballs at the same time, which we hadn't seen yet.

Yeah, we had to have known it was possible, right? It was possible in past games (what was the limit?)

Have we seen it in any footage?

 

[superNESjoe]

As far as Duck Hunt Dog is concerned, I've got a little story to share.

When I was a teenager I broke open a Magic 8 Ball and took out the die from the inside. I washed it off, put it in my pocket, and carried it around with me. Over the past ten years this thing keeps turning up at key moments in my life, as if from beyond reality. It's a specter, a guardian of sorts that crosses paths with me during times of necessary insight.

I recently moved into my first purchased home, and while reading the first rumor of Duck Hunt Dog it appeared. At least once a day, since GAF started discussing Dog, I have rolled the die like a d20 and asked if Dog would be in the game. Every single sign has pointed to yes.

Coincidence? I think not.

Naysayers better get used to the idea, because Duck Hunt Dog confirmed.

 

[Makai]

But tiers are based on matchups, are they not?


I mean, yes it is better to look at an individual characters matchups to see how well they stack up against particular characters instead of just some position on a list, if that's what you were meaning.

Tiers are compiled in smoke-filled backrooms. VIPs vote on the tier lists and the results are reported. There are also curators who sometimes make curious decisions. Why there are 8 people in Melee's latest S tier, I will never understand.

 

[Guesong]

I'd be very surprised if the Dog made it, honestly.

Simply because he's an actual dog. Not an anthropomorphized fox or bird. Not a fantasy-electric-rat creature. He's a dog. And I am 99.9 % sure that Nintendo would never allow you to beat up a dog.

It'd be akin to having a Nintendog being a playable character. Won't happen. The media/social backlash would happen.

 

[Makai]

I'd be very surprised if the Dog made it, honestly.

Simply because he's an actual dog. Not an anthropomorphized fox or bird. Not a fantasy-electric-rat creature. He's a dog. And I am 99.9 % sure that Nintendo would never allow you to beat up a dog.

It'd be akin to having a Nintendog being a playable character. Won't happen. The media/social backlash would happen.

He has thumbs

 

[georly]

QUOTE THIS POST TO GET A LINK TO THE QUESTIONNAIRE.

Why do you clump zelda/sheik and samus/ZSS together, when they're not clones at all, they play entirely differently, etc, but you don't clump pichu and pikachu together? I get that Zelda/sheik and samus/ZSS are the same PERSON, lore-wise, but in smash bros, they play very differently, even if they previously shared a roster slot. Is it just because of the roster slot? Because if that's the case, why do you clump link/toon link/young link together?

 

[JoeInky]

honestly don't listen to me whenever I have something to say about the competitive side of smash since obviously I'm not informed about it nor do I really care to be informed about it

Well then just don't say anything about it at all if you can't be bothered trying to defend your viewpoint?

 

[PadWarrior]

I want to see more of that Pokemon stage.

 

[Exotoro]

I'd be very surprised if the Dog made it, honestly.

Simply because he's an actual dog. Not an anthropomorphized fox or bird. Not a fantasy-electric-rat creature. He's a dog. And I am 99.9 % sure that Nintendo would never allow you to beat up a dog.

It'd be akin to having a Nintendog being a playable character. Won't happen. The media/social backlash would happen.

well they do allow you to beat up little kids

 

[Pop-O-Matic]

well they do allow you to beat up little kids

They never give ages. Ness and Lucas could be 17 for all you know.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

well they do allow you to beat up little kids

Psychic enhanced kids, which probably makes it okay

 

[JoeInky]

They never give ages. Ness and Lucas could be 17 for all you know.

They're 1700 years old, just like my japanese animes!



Anyway they never get bruised or bleed or even die really so it's not much of a deal.

I say let us punch a dog in the face.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Yeah, we had to have known it was possible, right? It was possible in past games (what was the limit?)

Have we seen it in any footage?

The E3 demo only appeared to ever spawn one Pokeball at a time, probably for performance reasons.

64 and Melee had a really high limit, like 6 or 8.
Brawl's limit was 3
I wouldn't be surprised if Smash 4's limit is 2.

 

[Pop-O-Matic]

Suggestion Box is closed. Poll will be up in a bit.

 

[Kurtofan]

Tomorrow, new stage: Ridley's back

 

[Zevenberge]

Tomorrow, new stage: Ridley's back

The player with the gamepad controls its movements and therewith the stage hazards. That way he will still be playable.

 

[Exotoro]

The E3 demo only appeared to ever spawn one Pokeball at a time, probably for performance reasons.

64 and Melee had a really high limit, like 6 or 8.
Brawl's limit was 3
I wouldn't be surprised if Smash 4's limit is 2.

they should let you spawn 100 pokeballs at once

 

[JoeInky]

How long would it take to import the 3DS version? Would it take more than 2 weeks, making it pointlessly close to the EU release date or is it worth doing?

 

[Zevenberge]

How long would it take to import the 3DS version? Would it take more than 2 weeks, making it pointlessly close to the EU release date or is it worth doing?

Do you have a Japanese 3DS? If so, can't you use the Japanese eShop using prepaid cards from the interwebs?

 

[PadWarrior]

The player with the gamepad controls its movements and therewith the stage hazards. That way he will still be playable.

LOL sounds good!

 

[JoeInky]

Do you have a Japanese 3DS? If so, can't you use the Japanese eShop using prepaid cards from the interwebs?

No, I'm looking on ebay for one and I can get it for £95, but it's pink. Forgot about being able to buy things on the eshop.


...I think I'm going to do it

 

[georly]

How long would it take to import the 3DS version? Would it take more than 2 weeks, making it pointlessly close to the EU release date or is it worth doing?

No, I'm looking on ebay for one and I can get it for £95, but it's pink. Forgot about being able to buy things on the eshop.
...I think I'm going to do it

Yeah, i took the plunge... solely because eshop means getting the game instantly, rather than having to wait a week+ for it to arrive.

Apparently foreign credit cards work, so you don't even need to buy prepaid cards.

Still waiting for my used japanese 3ds to arrive, I can't wait. I got a cobalt blue one (not available in the US, normally), for about $130. Totally worth it to play smash 3 weeks early, as well as MH4 and all the picross games we never got.

 

[PadWarrior]

Yeah, i took the plunge... solely because eshop means getting the game instantly, rather than having to wait a week+ for it to arrive.

Apparently foreign credit cards work, so you don't even need to buy prepaid cards.

Still waiting for my used japanese 3ds to arrive, I can't wait. I got a cobalt blue one (not available in the US, normally), for about $130. Totally worth it to play smash 3 weeks early, as well as MH4 and all the picross games we never got.

Nice, looking forward to hearing your impressions.

 

[JoeInky]

On the one hand, I can get it a month early.

On the other hand, it's going to make the wait for the WiiU version feel longer and I'm going to have to buy the EU 3DS version anyway out of OCD just so I can have it on my shelf.

Gaming is an expensive hobby.


Time to see if I'm going to be impulsive enough to buy that 3DS in the next couple of days.