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[Cerebral Palsy]

How can these guys attack Kerry, and let Cheney slide? Cheney received five draft notices during Nam ignoring them all, because quote, he had "other priorities" during the time. Kerry has some nerve serving our country!

 

[Error Macro]

While that is a completely valid point, they are not attacking Kerry for his service record, rather Kerry's allegations/distortions of the "atrocities" that took place during Vietnam and questioning his earning of the Purple Hearts and Bronze Stars.

 

[HAOHMARU]

Cheney dodged the draft.
Clinton dodged the draft.
Gore got a cushy Army Stars and Stripes position and then bailed out early.
Bush was in the Texas nation guard flying F-102.

However, none of those guys spoke against our country and against our Veterans like Kerry did. The SBVFT have raised many questions reguarding Kerry's service which he has yet to answer. In regards to why, I'm sure the majority of this group is fueled by Kerry's post-war Vietnam actions.

I would be too if Kerry called me a "war criminal." Made false claims that "a lot of guys, 60, 80 percent, stay stoned 24 hours a day." Asserted somehow that "200,000 a year who are murdered by the United States of America" in Vietnam. Kerry's statement of a hypocritical America "in our taking umbrage in the Geneva Conventions and using that as justification for a continuation of this war, when we are more guilty than any other body of violations of those Geneva Conventions." Kerry gave the enemy for free what P.O.W. fought against every day.

The fact he was part of an activist group Vietnam Veterans Against the War who had members that were exposed as fraud's and who also in a November 1971 Kansas City meeting had some members plot to murder U.S. Senators. FBI informants all had agreed that Kerry was present at that meeting and he did nothing about it. SBVFT are also pissed that he allied himself with Jane Fonda..."Hanoi Jane." Do you even know what she did to the P.O.W. in her visit to the Hanoi prison camp?

Lets not also forget that Kerry also acknowledged in his 1971 Senate testimonty, under oath, that he met with North Vietnamese goverment officals and the Communist "provisional goverment" of South Vietnam to "negotiate" a private diplomatic solution for American withdrawl. He was a Naval Reservist at the time, subject to the UCMJ (section 904 Article 104) and could have faced the death penalty for his unauthorized contact with the enemy. Now he is running for President...no wonder the SBVFT are pissed as hell.

Aftering finding out all of this, on top of the fact that Kerry flip-flops on almost every issue (yes...no...maybe!) I can not like this man. He has serious character flaws and I don't think he can be trusted.

 

[Cerebral Palsy]

While that is a completely valid point, they are not attacking Kerry for his service record, rather Kerry's allegations/distortions of the "atrocities" that took place during Vietnam and questioning his earning of the Purple Hearts and Bronze Stars.

Ah, I get it.

Good: Ditching your country at a time of war.

Bad: Serving your country, and then running for president.

 

[Incognito]

I wish people would shut the fuck up about events that happened 30+ years ago. That goes to both camps.

 

[FortNinety]

I've been avoiding all the dirty politicking, so I don't know what they've been saying. Can someone give me a brief rundown of what they've been accusing him?

 

[Cerebral Palsy]

Cheney dodged the draft.
Clinton dodged the draft.
Gore got a cushy Army Stars and Stripes position and then bailed out early.
Bush was in the Texas nation guard flying F-102.

However, none of those guys spoke against our country and against our Veterans like Kerry did. The SBVFT have raised many questions reguarding Kerry's service which he has yet to answer. In regards to why, I'm sure the majority of this group is fueled by Kerry's post-war Vietnam actions.

I would be too if Kerry called me a "war criminal." Made false claims that "a lot of guys, 60, 80 percent, stay stoned 24 hours a day." Asserted somehow that "200,000 a year who are murdered by the United States of America" in Vietnam. Kerry's statement of a hypocritical America "in our taking umbrage in the Geneva Conventions and using that as justification for a continuation of this war, when we are more guilty than any other body of violations of those Geneva Conventions." Kerry gave the enemy for free what P.O.W. fought against every day.

The fact he was part of an activist group Vietnam Veterans Against the War who had members that were exposed as fraud's and who also in a November 1971 Kansas City meeting had some members plot to murder U.S. Senators. FBI informants all had agreed that Kerry was present at that meeting and he did nothing about it. SBVFT are also pissed that he allied himself with Jane Fonda..."Hanoi Jane." Do you even know what she did to the P.O.W. in her visit to the Hanoi prison camp?

Lets not also forget that Kerry also acknowledged in his 1971 Senate testimonty, under oath, that he met with North Vietnamese goverment officals and the Communist "provisional goverment" of South Vietnam to "negotiate" a private diplomatic solution for American withdrawl. He was a Naval Reservist at the time, subject to the UCMJ (section 904 Article 104) and could have faced the death penalty for his unauthorized contact with the enemy. Now he is running for President...no wonder the SBVFT are pissed as hell.

Aftering finding out all of this, on top of the fact that Kerry flip-flops on almost every issue (yes...no...maybe!) I can not like this man. He has serious character flaws and I don't think he can be trusted.

Roy Hoffman, today: "John Kerry has not been honest."
Roy Hoffman, 2003: "I am not going to say anything negative about him — he's a good man."

Adrian Lonsdale, today: "He lacks the capacity to lead."
Adrian Lonsdale, 1996: "He was among the finest of those Swift boat drivers."

George Elliot, today: "John Kerry has not been honest about what happened in Vietnam."
George Elliot, 1996: "The fact that he chased an armed enemy down is something not to be looked down upon, but it was an act of courage."

Larry Thurlow, today: "...there was no hostile enemy fire directed at my boat or at any of the five boats operating on the river that day."
Larry Thurlow's Bronze Star citation, 1969: "...all units began receiving enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire from the river banks."

Dr. Louis Letson, today: "I know John Kerry is lying about his first Purple Heart because I treated him for that injury."
Medical records, 1968: "Dr. Letson's name does not appear on any of the medical records for Mr. Kerry. Under 'person administering treatment' for the injury, the form is signed by a medic, J. C. Carreon, who died several years ago."

Grant Hibbard, today: "He betrayed all his shipmates. He lied before the Senate."
Hibbard's evaluation of Kerry, 1968: "Mr. Hibbard gave Mr. Kerry the highest rating of 'one of the top few' in three categories—initiative, cooperation and personal behavior. He gave Mr. Kerry the second-best rating, 'above the majority,' in military bearing."

You said what about flip-flopping?

 

[HAOHMARU]

I've been avoiding all the dirty politicking, so I don't know what they've been saying. Can someone give me a brief rundown of what they've been accusing him?

To answer your question - Orignally posted by Ripclawe:

As for the swiftboat guys, so far they have made Kerry

1) Change his cambodia story(several times)

2) Kerry Campaign says its possible that Kerry's first PH was for an unintentional self-inflicted wound, backtracking on that.

3) The whole no man left behind speech where he implied he was the only one to come back for Rassman(his rescue story has changed several times) changed to where he was the only one who fled and then came back after the first explosion after the reports have come out.

4) Kerry's journal doesn't match up with the events of his first purple heart as well.

The Bronze Star he recieved was also debated about. Out of the 3 people that recieved the award (Kerry, Thurlow, and Thurlow's Petty Officer) 2 say there was enemy fire. It was disputed that Kerry wrote the after action report saying there was hostile enemy fire, but evidence was inconclusive as to who actually wrote it.

 

[Cerebral Palsy]

Swift Boat Veterans For Truth

I laugh everytime I read that.

 

[Ripclawe]

The Silver Star citation Kerry has is also in dispute

http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-lips28.html

Kerry citation a 'total mystery' to ex-Navy chief

August 28, 2004

BY THOMAS LIPSCOMB

Former Navy Secretary John Lehman has no idea where a Silver Star citation displayed on Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry's campaign Web site came from, he said Friday. The citation appears over Lehman's signature.

"It is a total mystery to me. I never saw it. I never signed it. I never approved it. And the additional language it contains was not written by me," he said.

The additional language varied from the two previous citations, signed first by Adm. Elmo Zumwalt and then Adm. John Hyland, which themselves differ. The new material added in the Lehman citation reads in part: "By his brave actions, bold initiative, and unwavering devotion to duty, Lieutenant (jg) Kerry reflected great credit upon himself...."

Asked how the citation could have been executed over his signature without his knowledge, Lehman said: "I have no idea. I can only imagine they were signed by an autopen." The autopen is a device often used in the routine execution of executive documents in government.

 

[explodet]

I must have been thrown into some kind of alternate universe where people no longer expect politicians to lie.

 

[HAOHMARU]

You said what about flip-flopping?

Well, I'll break some of those down for you:

Roy Hoffman, today: "John Kerry has not been honest."
Roy Hoffman, 2003: "I am not going to say anything negative about him — he's a good man."

2003 quote could have been taken out of context and most likely was. Did you read the entire dialouge? Hoffman could have been asked about Kerry's views on tax reform for all we know.

Adrian Lonsdale, today: "He lacks the capacity to lead."
Adrian Lonsdale, 1996: "He was among the finest of those Swift boat drivers."

Again, could have been taken out of context. Being the finest of swift boat drivers hardly mean he is a good leader anyway or that Lonsdale in 1996 thought he would make a great president.

George Elliot, today: "John Kerry has not been honest about what happened in Vietnam."
George Elliot, 1996: "The fact that he chased an armed enemy down is something not to be looked down upon, but it was an act of courage."

Elliot didn't say he wasn't honest about chasing an armed enemy down. He said he has not been honest about what happened in Vietnam...which you can see why if you read Kerry's Senate speech in 1971.

Larry Thurlow, today: "...there was no hostile enemy fire directed at my boat or at any of the five boats operating on the river that day."
Larry Thurlow's Bronze Star citation, 1969: "...all units began receiving enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire from the river banks."

Again, it is disputed who wrote the after action report. Thurlow already stated why he thought he deserved the Bronze Star..and it wasn't for hostile fire. Kerry and Thurlow's petty officer both believe there was enemy fire so this one is in your favor.

Dr. Louis Letson, today: "I know John Kerry is lying about his first Purple Heart because I treated him for that injury."
Medical records, 1968: "Dr. Letson's name does not appear on any of the medical records for Mr. Kerry. Under 'person administering treatment' for the injury, the form is signed by a medic, J. C. Carreon, who died several years ago."

Not sure about this one. I couldn't defend Letson's position because there is no evidence apparently. I haven't read anything about it anyway...just heard Leston speak about it.

Grant Hibbard, today: "He betrayed all his shipmates. He lied before the Senate."
Hibbard's evaluation of Kerry, 1968: "Mr. Hibbard gave Mr. Kerry the highest rating of 'one of the top few' in three categories—initiative, cooperation and personal behavior. He gave Mr. Kerry the second-best rating, 'above the majority,' in military bearing."

And lastly, this one I know for a fact was taken out of context. Hibbard's 1968 remarks were from Kerry's Navy evaluation. This quote was in 1971, 3 years after the evaluation was written: "He betrayed all his shipmates. He lied before the Senate." That was after Kerry's Senate hearing.

 

[border]

Yeah, it's okay to quote Kerry out of context....but shit, if we quote one of these smear campaign vets out of context, well then it doesn't count!

 

[HAOHMARU]

I'm not quoting Kerry out of context. I have his Senate speech sitting right in front of me.

Edit: If you are talking about others taking his quotes out of context (like some media)...yes, I'll agree with you on that.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

The Bronze Star he recieved was also debated about. Out of the 3 people that recieved the award (Kerry, Thurlow, and Thurlow's Petty Officer) 2 say there was enemy fire. It was disputed that Kerry wrote the after action report saying there was hostile enemy fire, but evidence was inconclusive as to who actually wrote it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5841575/

BARRY: That—I mean, the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, as they call themselves, get around this problem by saying, Well, it was Kerry who wrote up everything. OK.

MATTHEWS: Right.

BARRY: Now, the problem with that is that when you read the citations for Lambert and for Thurlow, OK...

MATTHEWS: Right.

BARRY: ... they talk in intimate detail of what was going on on Thurlow‘s launch. Now, Kerry can‘t have known that because he was on...

MATTHEWS: How far away was he?

BARRY: He was on another launch on other side of the river.

SBVFT are also pissed that he allied himself with Jane Fonda..."Hanoi Jane." Do you even know what she did to the P.O.W. in her visit to the Hanoi prison camp?

What sort of alliance are you talking about? I remembered seeing something about this at Snopes, so looked it up.

http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/kerry.asp
http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/kerry2.asp

It does show them at the same anti-war rally, but 2 years before before she became "Hanoi Jane."

 

[Mumbles]

I've been avoiding all the dirty politicking, so I don't know what they've been saying. Can someone give me a brief rundown of what they've been accusing him?

Basically, they're saying that Kerry lied about everything, is a coward, and therefore should not be president.

Of course, all documentation at the time, and a significant number of other veterans, back Kerry's version of most events (his being in Cambodia probably did not occur), so in most cases you've got nothing but goofy conspiracy theories ("Kerry must have written the report that got him the bronze star, there are his initials right there. JKW. Wait, his initials are really JFK? Well, it was still clearly him. Wait, my bronze star was given for courage under enemy fire, too? Well, I never knew that until you told me, Mr. Random Reporter.") and mangled quotes (reporter: "Could Kerry's wound have been self-inflicted?" Pro-Kerry vet: "Well, anything's possible." Swift Boat Vets: "The Kerry campaign is running scared!")

And BTW, those two examples are true.

 

[HAOHMARU]

JoshuaJSlone,

That Hardball transcript doesn't prove anything for either side. Officers write after action reports (AARs...officers should write them anyway) so it came from Kerry or Thurlow (who were other swift boat captains that day...I dunno?). Somebody could have reported the incident to their CO and he could have written it up too though. I'm not saying anything is concrete about this, but Lambert (Thurlow's petty officer) recently came out and said he believed there was hostile fire and that Thurlow could have been distracted because he was in the water saving the other swifties that got hit by the mine.

Also, I've never heard of Slope.com before...but before Jane Fonda went to Hanoi she wasn't liked by veterans either (Hanoi just magnified the hate). She was making anti-war statements against the military just like Kerry did in the 1971 Senate hearing. As for the pictures, one of them was taken 2 years prior to Jane Fonda's visit to Hanoi (that is what Slope says anyway) and the other was proven false with a bad photoshop edit (a really bad photoshop edit).

I'm not sure what was going on with the one that was proven false...looks like somebody was trying to start a conspiracy? A pretty lame one at that. This picture did not get any publicity...I've only seen the one with Kerry sitting behind Fonda myself.

As for Kerry being "allied" with Jane Fonda maybe that was the wrong word. I should have said associated. I have a guestion though...did Jane Fonda and John Kerry cut all ties after she went to Hanoi?

 

[xsarien]

Cheney dodged the draft.
Clinton dodged the draft.
Gore got a cushy Army Stars and Stripes position and then bailed out early.
Bush was in the Texas nation guard flying F-102.

However, none of those guys spoke against our country and against our Veterans like Kerry did. The SBVFT have raised many questions reguarding Kerry's service which he has yet to answer. In regards to why, I'm sure the majority of this group is fueled by Kerry's post-war Vietnam actions.

Yes, shame on him for coming back from Vietnam a changed man, willing to openly criticize the government for what he felt were legitimate reasons.

Better for him to do it, better for him to see all the "complexities" that most conservatives don't want anything to do with. He acknowledged going over there, but also acknowledged that what he did was wrong, and the U.S. was doing was less than honorable, and he spoke up, just like many, many, many other people during the time. And it was, and his right to do so. If the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth - who have been nailed to the wall on so much of what they've said that most people just dismiss them as election year bullshit - don't like it, that's fine. But if anyone's lying, if anyone has a more blatant agenda than them, I'd be hard pressed to believe it. These are the same dogs that came out against McCain in 2000. You can safely assume that if you're opposing Bush, they have a bone to pick with you.

 

[Ripclawe]

Kerry didn't change actually.

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061603.shtml

Kerry initially hoped to continue his service at a relatively safe distance from most fighting, securing an assignment as "swift boat" skipper. While the 50-foot swift boats cruised the Vietnamese coast a little closer to the action than the Gridley had come, they were still considered relatively safe.

"I didn't really want to get involved in the war," Kerry said in a little-noticed contribution to a book of Vietnam reminiscences published in 1986. "When I signed up for the swift boats, they had very little to do with the war. They were engaged in coastal patrolling and that's what I thought I was going to be doing."

even back then people saw him not being just anti-war but a opportunist who wanted to use the war to make a political career for himself

Then there is the whole viet cong paris meeting..etc..etc.

 

[Ripclawe]

so in most cases you've got nothing but goofy conspiracy theories ("Kerry must have written the report that got him the bronze star, there are his initials right there.

speaking of which.. The thing that confuses people is that the navy reports and all these other documents that supposedly "backs up" all start from the after action and spot reports. So that doesn't prove anything for Kerry.

Accuracy of Information Through Official Military Channels
Senator Symington: Mr. Kerry, from your experience in Vietnam do you think it is possible for the President or Congress to get accurate and undistorted information through official military channels?

(Shouts of "No" from the audience.)

Mr. Kerry: I don't know-

Senator Symington: I am beginning to think you have some supporters here.

Mr. Kerry: I don't know where they came from, sir, maybe Vietnam.

I had direct experience with that. Senator, I had direct experience with that and I can recall often sending in the spot reports which we made after each mission, and including the GDA, gunfire damage assessments, in which we would say, maybe 15 sampans sunk or whatever it was. And I often read about my own missions in the Stars and Stripes and the very mission we had been on had been doubled in figures and tripled in figures.

 

[HAOHMARU]

First, there is a difference between coming back a changed man and doing what Kerry did. How do you think John McCain, Mark Smith, Jeramiah Denton and James Stockdale felt? How many POWs who gave years of their lives, tortured almost to the brink of death came back and spoke out against their country like Kerry did? Those guys are the real heroes...they fought every day to not say what Kerry told the U.S. Senate. McCain has said in the past that John Kerry's statements before the U.S. Senate were the strongest piece of propoganda the North Vietnamese used against the P.O.Ws.

Second, these are not the same people that came after McCain in 2000. There was one gentleman that Bush was friends with that accused McCain of abandoning the veterans. That same man accused George Bush Sr. with some of the same things. George W. Bush condemed that guy for what he said about McCain and for what he said about his father.

If you are reffering to that advertisement Kerry started to run and then pulled, it cut out right before Bush condemed him. McCain wanted it pulled because the Kerry campaign was trying to put a spin on the conversation between McCain and Bush. Its not like Bush has a crack team of people that try and find skeletons in the closets of veterans or something. Is Bush guilty by association? I guess so if you really want to believe that he is behind all this.

 

[xsarien]

First, there is a difference between coming back a changed man and doing what Kerry did. How do you think John McCain, Mark Smith, Jeramiah Denton and James Stockdale felt? How many POWs who gave years of their lives, tortured almost to the brink of death came back and spoke out against their country like Kerry did? Those guys are the real heroes...they fought every day to not say what Kerry told the U.S. Senate. McCain has said in the past that John Kerry's statements before the U.S. Senate were the strongest piece of propoganda the North Vietnamese used against the P.O.Ws.

And the ad hominem's red flare... I'd respond to this if it weren't just a verbose way of saying "Kerry obviously offended every single, solitary soldier who ever fought in Vietnam. Why? Well, wouldn't you take it personally?"

Second, these are not the same people that came after McCain in 2000. There was one gentleman that Bush was friends with that accused McCain of abandoning the veterans. That same man accused George Bush Sr. with some of the same things. George W. Bush condemed that guy for what he said about McCain and for what he said about his father.

If you'd like to split hairs about this issue, fine. The groups backing the Swift Boat vets are the same ones that started fighting dirty with McCain. I'd hardly call them "gentlemen," though.

If you are reffering to that advertisement Kerry started to run and then pulled, it cut out right before Bush condemed him. McCain wanted it pulled because the Kerry campaign was trying to put a spin on the conversation between McCain and Bush. Its not like Bush has a crack team of people that try and find skeletons in the closets of veterans or something. Is Bush guilty by association? I guess so if you really want to believe that he is behind all this.

No, actually, I was referring to the excellent dissection of the Swift Boat Veterans, complete with quotes as recent as the late 90s that praised Kerry to rather high degrees, made very black and white connections to the Bush campaign, and proved them, in a nutshell, to be a sham. You want the details? Google's your friend, I'm not going to do your legwork.

 

[Dilbert]

I'm going to start demanding proof of age from people. If you weren't alive and reading at a high school level when the Vietnam War was going on, then you shouldn't be allowed to talk about events at that time as if you had some kind of PERSONAL insight into what Kerry did or did not do, or how Kerry was or was not perceived.

And, oh yeah, it's still irrelevant.

 

[Mumbles]

speaking of which.. The thing that confuses people is that the navy reports and all these other documents that supposedly "backs up" all start from the after action and spot reports. So that doesn't prove anything for Kerry.

Proof is for math and alcohol. Nobody is saying that the documents "prove" that Kerry's version of events are the correct ones, but when all documentation, and many of the people there at the time all agree with him, and the people who say he's a liar have a bone to pick, and connections to his political opponents, then it's reasonable to side with him.

And before you start sobbing, it's also not reasonable to say that Bush was AWOL.

 

[HAOHMARU]

And the ad hominem's red flare... I'd respond to this if it weren't just a verbose way of saying "Kerry obviously offended every single, solitary soldier who ever fought in Vietnam. Why? Well, wouldn't you take it personally?"

O.K., tell me 1 P.O.W. who will praise John Kerry if they were in a prison camp 1971 and later. You will not find one. They used John Kerry's words against the P.O.W.s...so yes, he did offend every single, solitary P.O.W. I didn't say every military member that served in Vietnam. The 4 people I mentioned were all P.O.W.s during the time Kerry was in his anti-war, anti-military phase.
Honestly, I think you would be lucky to find any P.O.W. that supports Kerry from what he did during post-war Vietnam.

If you'd like to split hairs about this issue, fine. The groups backing the Swift Boat vets are the same ones that started fighting dirty with McCain. I'd hardly call them "gentlemen," though.

So, the one person that attacked McCain was funded and "backed" by the same "groups" that are backing the SBVFT? Here is a list of the major donations given to the SBVFT:
$158,750 in donations from April 30 to June 30, 2004
$100,000 came from Texas developer and Republican activist Bob Perry.
Another $50,000 came from two other individual contributors with Republican Party ties, John O'Neill and Harlan Crow, who gave $25,000 each.

Are those the same people that attacked McCain? I don't think they are but prove me wrong.

No, actually, I was referring to the excellent dissection of the Swift Boat Veterans, complete with quotes as recent as the late 90s that praised Kerry to rather high degrees, made very black and white connections to the Bush campaign, and proved them, in a nutshell, to be a sham. You want the details? Google's your friend, I'm not going to do your legwork.

I've already went over the quotes of some of the SBVFT members supporting John Kerry in the past so I won't do it again. The Bush and Kerry campaign both have "ties" to 527 groups. Kerry's campaign has ties to 527 groups that are anti-Bush...the same ones that tried to bring doubt about his military service in the Texas National Guard amongst other things.

Go google yourself...I use Yahoo.

 

[Catchpenny]

Cerebral Palsy left out my favorite Swift Boat Liars contradiction:

John O'Neill on ABC News' "This Week with George Stephanopoulos," August 22, 2004:

You asked about Cambodia. How do I know he's not in Cambodia? I was on the same river, George. I was there two months after him. Our patrol area ran to Sedek, it was 50 miles from Cambodia. There isn't any watery border. The Mekong River's like the Mississippi. There were gunboats stationed right up there to stop people from coming. And our boats didn't go north of, only slightly north of Sedek. So it was a made up story. He's told it over 50 times, George, that was on the floor of the Senate. He wrote articles about it, it was a malicious story because it painted all the guys above him, all of the commanding officers, in effect, as war criminals, that had ordered him into a neutral country, it was a lie.

John O'Neill and Richard Nixon in the Oval Office, June 16, 1971:

O'NEILL: I was in Cambodia, sir. I worked along the border on the water.

NIXON: In a swift boat?

O'NEILL: Yes, sir.

So no swift boats went to Cambodia, and there's no watery border. Except when they did and there is. Here is a map of the area. Remember that Swift Boats could operate in water less than five feet deep.

 

[HAOHMARU]

I'm going to start demanding proof of age from people. If you weren't alive and reading at a high school level when the Vietnam War was going on, then you shouldn't be allowed to talk about events at that time as if you had some kind of PERSONAL insight into what Kerry did or did not do, or how Kerry was or was not perceived.

And, oh yeah, it's still irrelevant.

Fist, I hope you are not serious about that. Forget your morning coffee again?

Second, it is relevant because these things shape the character of who John Kerry really is. There is no spin to what I am saying...if anything I'm trying to take in all facts and make my own judgement. I won't put blinders on like some people.

 

[Mumbles]

O.K., tell me 1 P.O.W. who will praise John Kerry if they were in a prison camp 1971 and later.

Just one note: John McCain was a POW from 1967-1973, and has praised Kerry's service.

 

[HAOHMARU]

I didn't say anything about his service. I'm talking about his post-war Vietnam bullshit.

John McCain got physically and mentally tortured because of John Kerry's comments. He won't praise John Kerry for what he said to the Senate in 1971.

 

[xsarien]

O.K., tell me 1 P.O.W. who will praise John Kerry if they were in a prison camp 1971 and later. You will not find one. They used John Kerry's words against the P.O.W.s...so yes, he did offend every single, solitary P.O.W. I didn't say every military member that served in Vietnam. The 4 people I mentioned were all P.O.W.s during the time Kerry was in his anti-war, anti-military phase.
Honestly, I think you would be lucky to find any P.O.W. that supports Kerry from what he did during post-war Vietnam.

It's not my job to support your statements. You want to hold that one up, bring it to the table. All you'll find are anecdotes, which is the problem. You're trying to prove something that cannot be verified by facts.

So, the one person that attacked McCain was funded and "backed" by the same "groups" that are backing the SBVFT? Here is a list of the major donations given to the SBVFT:
$158,750 in donations from April 30 to June 30, 2004
$100,000 came from Texas developer and Republican activist Bob Perry.
Another $50,000 came from two other individual contributors with Republican Party ties, John O'Neill and Harlan Crow, who gave $25,000 each.

Are those the same people that attacked McCain? I don't think they are but prove me wrong.

It takes more than one guy to make a [smear] television campaign:
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/special_packages/election2004/9426467.htm

Perry is a prolific GOP donor who backed Bush in his races for governor and president and contributed more than $5 million to state candidates and causes in Texas since 2000 and several hundred thousand dollars to national candidates and the Republican Party.

His $100,000 to Swift Boat Veterans in June constituted most of the group's initial funding to launch its TV spot, according to federal records.

Other major contributors to the group include Dallas real estate executive and GOP fund-raiser Harlan Crow, who has contributed $25,000.

Merrie Spaeth, a Dallas public relations executive, has helped the group present its message. She was involved with a Dallas-based effort in 2000 by an independent group that helped Bush by running an ad in the GOP primary challenging Republican John McCain's record.

I've already went over the quotes of some of the SBVFT members supporting John Kerry in the past so I won't do it again. The Bush and Kerry campaign both have "ties" to 527 groups. Kerry's campaign has ties to 527 groups that are anti-Bush...the same ones that tried to bring doubt about his military service in the Texas National Guard amongst other things.

And your point? I mean, aside from just wanting to change the subject. How exactly do you reconcile their glowing remarks of Kerry with what they're saying now? Are they [dramatic refrain] FLIP-FLOPPERS?

 

[HAOHMARU]

Catchpenny,

John O'Neill and Richard Nixon in the Oval Office, June 16, 1971:

O'NEILL: I was in Cambodia, sir. I worked along the border on the water.

NIXON: In a swift boat?

O'NEILL: Yes, sir.

O'Niel already stated that he wasn't in Cambodia and that he only meant he was operating near the border to Presient Nixon. It has already been proven that the swifties didn't operate in Cambodia.

Also, there were 2 parts near Cambodia where the swifties patroled. One as you pointed out was 50 miles away in a river. The other was in a river right near the border. TWO seperate geographic places...and the quotes you are using make it sound like O'Niel was only talking about one.

I can't remember the river names off hand, but my statements are factual.

 

[HAOHMARU]

It's not my job to support your statements. You want to hold that one up, bring it to the table. All you'll find are anecdotes, which is the problem. You're trying to prove something that cannot be verified by facts.

No, its because they don't exist. You can't find them. I know for a fact they don't exist because the P.O.W.s at the time got physically and mentally tortured because of John Kerry's statements. Think about that...

Merrie Spaeth, a Dallas public relations executive, has helped the group present its message. She was involved with a Dallas-based effort in 2000 by an independent group that helped Bush by running an ad in the GOP primary challenging Republican John McCain's record.

So only 1 public relations member that has helped both the SBVFT and the attacks against McCain? So that 1 person has become the entire group that is backing the SBVFT? No financial backing...just public relations. Public...relations. O.K....whatever.

And your point? I mean, aside from just wanting to change the subject. How exactly do you reconcile their glowing remarks of Kerry with what they're saying now? Are they [dramatic refrain] FLIP-FLOPPERS?

Aside from changing the subject? You brought it up again! I already posted about it in this thread...I am not going to discuss it any further. Read what I already posted...I'm not going to cut and paste it for you.

Edit: Everybody keeps cut and pasting the same quotes that praise Kerry and then have the SBVFT quotes. Not one of you have sourced any of those transcripts. I caught one of them about Kerry's Navy evaluation, but I can't find out where that Newspaper got the rest of them.

 

[MetatronM]

O'Niel already stated that he wasn't in Cambodia and that he only meant he was operating near the border to Presient Nixon. It has already been proven that the swifties didn't operate in Cambodia.

Are you trying to say that he lied to the face of the President of the United States? Because it doesn't get much clearer than "I WAS IN CAMBODIA."

 

[HAOHMARU]

Are you trying to say that he lied to the face of the President of the United States? Because it doesn't get much clearer than "I WAS IN CAMBODIA."

And what is the next line you left out? Don't take his words out of context. He meant along the border of Cambodia.

I was in Cambodia, sir. I worked along the border on the water.

 

[xsarien]

No, its because they don't exist. You can't find them. I know for a fact they don't exist because the P.O.W.s at the time got physically and mentally tortured because of John Kerry's statements. Think about that...


So only 1 public relations member that has helped both the SBVFT and the attacks against McCain? So that 1 person has become the entire group that is backing the SBVFT? No financial backing...just public relations. Public...relations. O.K....whatever.

One public relations manager, the same money men (the biggest of which is close friends with Karl Rove,) and the same candidate. Do the math.

 

[Son of Godzilla]

so this one is in your favor

First to ten AND WE ALL FUCKING LOSE.

 

[HAOHMARU]

One public relations manager, the same money men (the biggest of which is close friends with Karl Rove,) and the same candidate. Do the math.

Right, I'm not arguing that Bush doesn't have ties to 527 groups. Kerry has ties to anti-Bush 527 groups as well...ones with a lot more financial backing than SBVFT mind you.

I thought you were saying the same people that financially backed the SBVFT, financially backed the statements made against McCain. You source 1 public relations exec that worked on both cases, and that is the only tie between the two that you have mentioned thus far.

Also, being friends or associates with someone who backs a group hardly means that person backs that group as well. I have friends that are in pro-choice groups...does that mean I am pro-choice too? I am associated with them and I have ties, but does that mean I support them? Can you tell me which side I support? You can't because you wouldn't know. I hope you really don't think like that. (and before anybody says anything, Kerry and Fonda were associates and believed in the same cause. Apparently it was only after Fonda's visit to Hanoi where Kerry distanced himself...although I can't find any proof that he did.)

I can't read that Salon website of yours because I am not a member.

 

[xsarien]

I can't read that Salon website of yours because I am not a member.

You know you can get full access to Salon just by viewing the ads through the day pass system, right?

 

[Chesapeake Silt]

http://www.cheerleadersfortruth.com/

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

John McCain got physically and mentally tortured because of John Kerry's comments.

So without Kerry's comments, what? McCain would've been given a fluffy pillow?

It has already been proven that the swifties didn't operate in Cambodia.

Also, there were 2 parts near Cambodia where the swifties patroled. One as you pointed out was 50 miles away in a river. The other was in a river right near the border. TWO seperate geographic places...and the quotes you are using make it sound like O'Niel was only talking about one.

http://www.slate.com/id/2105529/

It is certain that by this time, the United States had long been making secret incursions across the border. This is from Page 24 of William Shawcross' 1979 book, Sideshow: Kissinger, Nixon, and the Destruction of Cambodia:

--- Since May 1967, when the U.S. Military Command in Saigon became concerned at the way the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong were evading American "search and destroy" and air attacks in Vietnam by making more use of bases in Laos and Cambodia, the U.S. Special Forces had been running special, highly classified missions into the two countries. Their code name was Daniel Boone. ---

The Daniel Boone teams entered Cambodia all along its 500-mile frontier with South Vietnam from the lonely, craggy, impenetrable mountain forests in the north, down to the well-populated and thickly reeded waterways along the Mekong River. [Italics added.]

We know that Kerry's boat and two others were in those reeds on Christmas Eve '68.

 

[Mumbles]

John McCain got physically and mentally tortured because of John Kerry's comments. He won't praise John Kerry for what he said to the Senate in 1971.

Dunno whether or not he would praise Kerry's testimony, but McCain seems to think he was tortured and mistreated from the moment he was captured. A part of his story is contained in the following link:

http://www.pownetwork.org/bios/m/m125.htm

 

[GG-Duo]

http://www.cheerleadersfortruth.com/

ahahahahahaa

 

[HAOHMARU]

Ok to make things clear...I wasn't saying all those P.O.W.s got tortured JUST because of Kerry's comments, they got that since the day they showed up to the prison camp. I meant that the North Vietnamese used Kerry's words as their strongest piece of propoganda against the P.O.W.s. to make them say the things Kerry was claiming. It was a morale killer in the P.O.W. camps...for whatever morale they had left.

(If you haven't heard some of these guys speak about their experiences you should. I've heard Stockdale, McCain and a few others speak about what they went through. Some of the stories were amazing...for instance, one enlisted sailor was a P.O.W. and acted like a dufus in front of the guards. They only made him sweep the camp grounds as his only duty because they thought he was too stupid to do anything else. Turns out that as he swept up he would learn the names, ranks and social security numbers of all the prisoners. He got sent home earlier than a lot of people and memorized like 150 P.O.W.s information that he told to all of their families so they knew their loved ones were still alive. I've left out the details, but that is a good sumarization of what happened. That one just stuck out in my mind for some reason.)

 

[Kobun Heat]

I'm not going to debate what Kerry did while in Vietnam - I'm not up on all the he said-she said stuff and quite frankly, considering the "fog of war", who knows who's telling the truth.

What's not under debate at all is what Kerry did after Vietnam, which was to get up in front of the Senate and spew forth all kinds of stuff that was at the very least severely hurtful to the war effort and to the survival of POWs, and at worst just an unforgivable stack of lies.

And now, Kerry's proud of what he did and of his "band of brothers." Uh, what? I thought he was embarrassed about it and thought that his "band of brothers" were rapists and mass murderers. Can't have it both ways.

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

When did Viral Marketing for Republicans/Democrats become accceptible? I'm in awe that it no longer is acceptable to just have served when you opponent clearly not, but now we get weekly 'debates' that lack any clear 'facts'.

Here's my real issue: No matter who served in what war or how many medals they got, I still have the record of the last 4 years to go on. It's hard to falsify those facts cuz I was awake for 2/3 of the time. I'll make my judgements accordingly.

 

[3rdman]

When did Viral Marketing for Republicans/Democrats become accceptible? I'm in awe that it no longer is acceptable to just have served when you opponent clearly not, but now we get weekly 'debates' that lack any clear 'facts'.

Here's my real issue: No matter who served in what war or how many medals they got, I still have the record of the last 4 years to go on. It's hard to falsify those facts cuz I was awake for 2/3 of the time. I'll make my judgements accordingly.

Agreed. But, of course, this is what the Republicans want. They want people to argue and forget about this administrations failures at everything they've touched. I know I shouldn't but (for just one more time) I will indulge in this stupid debate before never returning.

What is completly sad about all this is how the burden of proof somehow falls on Kerry even though all the evidence and testimony is in favor of him. Not to mention the fact that these dipshits have lost all credability from their previous statements or from the military records, yet Kerry needs to explain himself. Jesus!

Oh and BTW, as far as I'm concerned Kerry is a hero, not or his actions in Vietnam, but for the things he did in protest against it when he came back.

"What's not under debate at all is what Kerry did after Vietnam, which was to get up in front of the Senate and spew forth all kinds of stuff that was at the very least severely hurtful to the war effort and to the survival of POWs, and at worst just an unforgivable stack of lies."

What???? Did My Lai never happen now??? How very typical of you to suggest that Kerry's testimony's are what led to greater tortures in the POW camps all without willing to blame those who had led these soldiers to their fate. Typical. Severly hurtful to the war?....GOOD.

 

[Kobun Heat]

Nobody's suggesting that atrocities didn't occur over there. Kerry's assertion is far greater, however; that they were the norm, and that they occurred with official sanction.

And even if we take what he says to be true, we have to wonder why, now, he's proud of that; why his personal role in what he considers to be a great, barbaric atrocity is the focus of his campaign.

 

[Triumph]

Second, it is relevant because these things shape the character of who John Kerry really is. There is no spin to what I am saying...if anything I'm trying to take in all facts and make my own judgement. I won't put blinders on like some people.

Sooooo......

Dubya's alleged alcoholism and cocaine use, loafing through his 20's and 30's, questionable business practices and actions, maybe showing up for the Texas Air National Guard some of the time while said war in Vietnam was going on, and all the seedy things he's done since taking office are open for discussion then, right?

Oh shit. I forgot. Dubya is a born again Christian. His FAITH saved him from all of that nonsense, right? He can do no wrong and has a pipeline to God. John Kerry is a lying, flip-flopping demon from Hell that would no doubt rent out the Lincoln Bedroom to his old Viet Cong buddies and let them run off with all the best tapestries and china in the White House. Can't have that! I'm gonna vote for the guy who's proven that he can't lead a horse dying of thirst the thirty feet to Lake Superior, because he has conviction behind his actions. Yup.

 

[KingV]

What's really sad is that the current presidential race has degenerated into a series of personal attack from both sides, with neither side a clearly "good" choice. While I think some of Bush's policies are ok, he has some really bone headed ideas as well, and he's a little too religious for my personal taste. But at the same time, at least he's relatively consistent in his views and comes off as perhaps not incredibly intellectual but reasonably honest (for a politician).

Kerry, on the other hand, comes across as one the slimiest politicians I've ever seen. I find the man personally despicable. What he did after the Vietnam was abhorable by any reasonable standard. Not the protesting itself, but its deceitful nature. Further, he doesn't particularly seem to have any real opinions on anything except for 1) his Vietnam Service 2) and President Bush. I can't discern any other reasonable planks to his platform. Everytime I think there is one he pulls the rug out from under me and changes it to something else.

In the end, I don't think either man will end up being either the worst or greatest President the country has ever had but merely another in the run of "presidents most people forget about". For my money, I'm voting for Bush, as I'd rather stick with the mediocrity I know than that which I don't.

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

Hey, maybe the personal attacks against Kerry is just a form of compliment. When the 2000 Republican race was somewhat close, McCain felt the heat from the Bush camp, if I remember correctly.