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Switch’s successor faces backwards compatibility challenges, developer suggests | VGC

A new video has suggested that a successor to the Nintendo Switch could face backward compatibility issues, due to the technical hurdles of moving from the Nintendo Switch’s architecture to new hardware.

www.videogameschronicle.com

In a newly-published video, MVG digs into the possible components for Nintendo’s next console, and explains why incompatibility between new hardware and how current Nintendo Switch software is compiled means that support for legacy Switch games isn’t necessarily a given.

The Nintendo Switch currently uses the Tegra X1, a chip developed by NVIDIA that also powers Nvidia Shield Android TVs from 2015-2018, highlighting the age of the hardware.

“If Nintendo is to move away from the Tegra X1, which we all feel strongly that they will probably do, current Switch games won’t work on new hardware, that is without recompiling the games to target that hardware,” MVG explains.

The developer then posits several solutions for how Nintendo could get around this issue, such as software emulation, similar to that found within the Xbox Series consoles.

Those machines use the Xbox Series X power to emulate virtual Xbox and Xbox 360 consoles in order to play older games, similarly to how third-party emulators function on PC.

While a Switch 2 could theoretically do this, it would require significant processing power. Even the Steam Deck, which is a significantly more powerful device than the Nintendo Switch, struggles to emulate some Switch titles.

MVG then suggests a solution that NVIDIA and Nintendo provide chip compatibility for Tegra X1 on their next chip. However, as MVG points out, this is not currently supported and would seemingly require a lot of new work.

The next suggestion offered is that Nintendo includes a TegraX1 chip in every Switch successor, meaning older games can be played without emulation of new software, similarly to how the Nintendo GameCube‘s chipset was included in the Nintendo Wii.

The issue here is that this would increase the cost of producing the system, and in the case of physical games, would require either a Nintendo Switch cartridge slot or the successor to the Switch would also need to use the same carts.

 

[Trilobit]

They should focus on the future and look forward instead of finding a subpar solution that allows BC.

 

[WhiteWaterM00se]

I have long suspected Nintendo goes one of two ways with Switch 2. One, BC is included…but it cost extra. Say $499 for a BC Switch 2 vs $399 for Switch 2. Similar to how PS3 was.

-OR-

Two, they don’t include BC at all.

If they go with option two, I am actually ok with it. Provided they meet certaIn Requirements.

Nintendo Online must be as good as Xbox Live from Xbox 360, at minimum.

Nintendo hardware and internals must become as good as Apple hardware. No more Fisher Price style hardware. No more Joy-con drift, no more cheap plastic shells, no more crappy Wi-Fi chips. Give the consumer a decent product. Respect the consumers.

Nintendo MUST BE TRANSPARENT about the future with investors, developers, and consumers. I think that day is coming very soon!

 

[DownLikeBCPowder]

The issue here is that this would increase the cost of producing the system, and in the case of physical games, would require either a Nintendo Switch cartridge slot or the successor to the Switch would also need to use the same carts.

Why does this mean they'd have to use the same carts? Could just have this slot elsewhere on the machine, another slot for new media. Either way, I'd -really- like to see everything BC style a la Wii with Gamecube, but probably won't get that.

 

[Seider]

Switch´s Tegra X1 isnt using it´s full potential. Tegra X1 can run at 1 Ghz but in Switch it runs a 768 mhz in dock mode and 307 mhz in portable mode (with a boost mode reaching around 400 mhz).

So, Nintendo could use Tegra X1 at full speed of 1 Ghz in dock mode and 500 mhz in portable mode in the new model.

But there is a Tegra X1+ which runs at 125% speed of Tegra X1, so even more power for the new model can be achieved without changing the chipset.

 

[lh032]

if this switch BC really does not work, i wonder will it impact the switch 2 sales.

 

[Patrick S.]

I'd kinda hate having to keep the Switch around once its successor arrives. Once a new console is out, the old ones feel "dead" to me and I don't want them anymore. I wouldn't even want a PS4/Pro right now, tbh. The only reason I held on to my One X is because it does BC with the OG and 360 well enough for me not to need a Series X.

 

[Northeastmonk]

They should focus on the future instead of finding a subpar solution that allows BC.

The Switch sells millions even after it’s been out for a while. They have a larger install base that range from the extremely casual to the dedicated hardcore. Way more casual market. You’d have another uproar like the parents did with NES and the SNES. At the time they probably didn’t know any better. I just have a hunch that they’re debating rather or not they’re going to piss off their casual crowd.

Imagine not knowing any better, buying a switch and a $70 Zelda game knowing you’ve spend over half of what their new console costs. Plus you only get that gen’s worth of games. It’s playing on ignorance, but that’s my guess.

 

[Kilau]

I'm hopeful that sticking with Nvidia will help the BC solution greatly without the need dedicated old hardware.

Why does this mean they'd have to use the same carts? Could just have this slot elsewhere on the machine, another slot for new media. Either way, I'd -really- like to see everything BC style a la Wii with Gamecube, but probably won't get that.

Like how the DS had a slot for gameboy or how the 3DS could take both DS and it's own cards in the same slot.

 

[Mr Reasonable]

Nintendo are probably celebrating that it's being reported that BC will be difficult to achieve, meaning that there'll be less backlash when they sell every game they've ever released at full price. ...again.

 

[DownLikeBCPowder]

I'm hopeful that sticking with Nvidia will help the BC solution greatly without the need dedicated old hardware.



Like how the DS had a slot for gameboy or how the 3DS could take both DS and it's own cards in the same slot.

Right - I agree completely.

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

Switch´s Tegra X1 isnt using it´s full potential. Tegra X1 can run at 1 Ghz but in Switch it runs a 768 mhz in dock mode and 307 mhz in portable mode (with a boost mode reaching around 400 mhz).

So, Nintendo could use Tegra X1 at full speed of 1 Ghz in dock mode and 500 mhz in portable mode in the new model.

But there is a Tegra X1+ which runs at 125% speed of Tegra X1, so even more power for the new model can be achieved without changing the chipset.

Switch 2 won't use Tegra X1, X1(Maxwell GPU) is ancient now. It will use Tegra Orin with an Arm Hercules CPU and an Nvidia Ampere GPU. Nvidia likely has taken care of BC issues since it's the same architecture (arm) and same vendor(Nvidia). Just like AMD did for PS5.

 

[asdasdasdbb]

Switch 2 won't use Tegra X1, X1(Maxwell GPU) is ancient now. It will use Tegra Orin with an Arm Hercules CPU and an Nvidia Ampere GPU. Nvidia likely has taken care of BC issues since it's the same architecture (arm) and same vendor(Nvidia). Just like AMD did for PS5.

I agree but I'd expect Nintendo to enforce at a min that you would need a patch to play the game on Switch 2.

This one is tough to predict. I could easily see them ultimately deciding that no BC is less of a headache for them. And then sell the recompiled games at full price...

 

[Kamina]

I’d pay 50 bucks more for BC easy

 

[gothmog]

This article hurts my head because it has almost nothing to do with the Switch as much as how you could do BC on any console.

 

[SF Kosmo]

MVG usually knows what he's talking about, but I'm genuinely lost as to why he thinks a newer Nvidia chip with new architecture and features can't be backward compatible. Current gen consoles do this already.

It's not even like we know what chip it's using. There are rumors about the architecture or what it might be based on, but it's going to be custom silicon.

 

[Knightime_X]

I'm completely ok with Switch 2 not being BC, even if digital only.
Unless they can upres switch 1 games with 60fps don't bother.

 

[cartman414]

Only way Switch won't have BC is if they change architecture. Which is highly unlikely, as they're all about low power consumption, and ARM hasn't let anyone down there.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Er so if I'm reading this right, the article is referencing the video, which puts together a theoretical list of Switch 2 components, and therefore theorizes that perfect compatibility may not be a thing

Soo, all speculation and not an actual report of difficulties happening at Nintendo? I'd move along, folks.

They actually just put the whole Wii GPU in the Wii U GPU, effectively. Any successor to TX1 probably won't have much issue running its games, games shouldn't be coded to exact clock speeds or the like anymore.

 

[lestar]

meanwhile they stay with the same arm arch and nvidia tech, they will have no issues with BC

 

[Gambit2483]

Just saw this video...I'm sure Nintendo and NVIDIA have come up with a solution to have at least the major 1st and 3rd Party games BC. I wouldn't worry about this

 

[93xfan]

Switch´s Tegra X1 isnt using it´s full potential. Tegra X1 can run at 1 Ghz but in Switch it runs a 768 mhz in dock mode and 307 mhz in portable mode (with a boost mode reaching around 400 mhz).

So, Nintendo could use Tegra X1 at full speed of 1 Ghz in dock mode and 500 mhz in portable mode in the new model.

But there is a Tegra X1+ which runs at 125% speed of Tegra X1, so even more power for the new model can be achieved without changing the chipset.

Seems like a minor upgrade.

Either way, Nintendo absolutely needs this new console to be BC. If it isn’t, I can’t see my self ever trusting any purchase in their ecosystem again.

 

[93xfan]

Er so if I'm reading this right, the article is referencing the video, which puts together a theoretical list of Switch 2 components, and therefore theorizes that perfect compatibility may not be a thing

Soo, all speculation and not an actual report of difficulties happening at Nintendo? I'd move along, folks.

They actually just put the whole Wii GPU in the Wii U GPU, effectively. Any successor to TX1 probably won't have much issue running its games, games shouldn't be coded to exact clock speeds or the like anymore.

You should watch the video next time. The bolder and many other things are addressed.

As a side note, I don’t expect BC to be an in issue.

 

[Celcius]

If they want to do B/C then they'll do it.
The real question is will we even have to worry about this before 2025?

 

[sachos]

Man this sucks. I really hope they find an answer to this. BC has become something you expect out of consoles with the PS5 and Xbox Series, not only because its nice for your games to move forward with you but because it actually improves the performance for all your games.

 

[StereoVsn]

If Nintendo doesn't offer full BC, and preferably with better performance, I am done with their games. That would be beyond ridiculous.

 

[Synless]

I’d love to have it, but I’ll buy whatever they release anyways.

 

[LordOfChaos]

You should watch the video next time. The bolder and many other things are addressed.

As a side note, I don’t expect BC to be an in issue.

Sounds like I didn't need to

 

[Seider]

Switch 2 won't use Tegra X1, X1(Maxwell GPU) is ancient now. It will use Tegra Orin with an Arm Hercules CPU and an Nvidia Ampere GPU. Nvidia likely has taken care of BC issues since it's the same architecture (arm) and same vendor(Nvidia). Just like AMD did for PS5.

Maybe you are right. But i think going from 307 mhz to 600 mhz in portable mode and from 768 to 1250 mhz in dock mode inst a bad thing.

You get double perfomance, 100% BC, developers continue doing games just like last 6 years but with a more powerful system. Same development kits.

Just lets wait and see what nintendo do in a few months. But i dont think this will be a Switch 2. It looks more like a New Switch as the New Nintendo 3DS was... but now with a much more succesfull system with more than 120 millions units sold.

 

[Robb]

I hope they solve it, would be a shame if the next one wasn’t BC with Switch.

 

[Panajev2001a]

MVG usually knows what he's talking about, but I'm genuinely lost as to why he thinks a newer Nvidia chip with new architecture and features can't be backward compatible. Current gen consoles do this already.

It's not even like we know what chip it's using. There are rumors about the architecture or what it might be based on, but it's going to be custom silicon.

I think the fear is that nVIDIA would give Nintendo a finished chip without built-in BC (emulation would be needed or per title patches, but we are still talking about ARM to ARM superset and nVIDIA GPU to nVIDIA GPU) and looking at Switch itself that is what they got (an unmodified Tegra X1, ok with a lower click speed and some cores turned off but not removed ).

AMD gives semi-custom designs to MS and Sony with a mix of their current and future roadmap IP blocks as well space for completely custom features or tweaks to features they already have.

 

[flying_sq]

You know, I was thinking recently about Nintendo game development. Awhile ago pretty much all developers came out and said the jump to HD ballooned budgets because of textures, animations and other general fidelity improvements. I wonder if Nintendo is specifically targeting lower end hardware to reduce development costs/time.

The last time Nintendo had a serious specs contender was the Gamecube. The Wii was a 480p machine, the Wii U was 720p. The switch is kind of 1080p/720p but with serious texture issues and production quality I would expect from a 360 or PS3. Doubling down on gameplay and hoping people give them a pass on graphics and other niceties?

 

[killatopak]

Another gen of ports…

 

[diffusionx]

I think the fear is that nVIDIA would give Nintendo a finished chip without built-in BC (emulation would be needed or per title patches, but we are still talking about ARM to ARM superset and nVIDIA GPU to nVIDIA GPU) and looking at Switch itself that is what they got (an unmodified Tegra X1, ok with a lower click speed and some cores turned off but not removed ).

AMD gives semi-custom designs to MS and Sony with a mix of their current and future roadmap IP blocks as well space for completely custom features or tweaks to features they already have.

Why wouldn't Nintendo request a "finished chip" with built-in BC? Nintendo more than any other company values BC and has always seemed to do it whenever possible.

This just seems like clickbait honestly.

 

[justiceiro]

I have been saying this since switch was announced. This machine is a dead end. Nvidia abandoned the line by the time switch came to the market. Wanting a switch 2 is like wanting titanic 2. There is no where to go from where they are.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Maybe you are right. But i think going from 307 mhz to 600 mhz in portable mode and from 768 to 1250 mhz in dock mode inst a bad thing.

You get double perfomance, 100% BC, developers continue doing games just like last 6 years but with a more powerful system. Same development kits.

Maybe, kind of like a GameCube to Wii transition, not unprecedented but the gap between them and the next gen consoles would still be massive:

Also the design you are thinking of would also consume a fair bit more power unless Nintendo paid enough to get nVIDIA to port it to a much newer manufacturing node… seems like a large cost for just BC considering Nintendo thinks that people pay their online service to rent drip fed BC titles support and do not seem to buy ports from their previous system (they ported and sold at higher prices the Wii U catalogue on Switch without a lot more enhancements than what MS does for free on BC titles).

I am still hopeful in a stronger new chipset with software BC taking care of it all without lots of remasters, but if the transition to the new chipset would require this much effort then they may as well gone to AMD and get a semi custom design with some non patent infringing ways to speed their Switch emulator up on top of giving them s great new mobile SoC.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Why wouldn't Nintendo request a "finished chip" with built-in BC? Nintendo more than any other company values BC and has always seemed to do it whenever possible.

This just seems like clickbait honestly.

By finished I mean that they got sometime nVIDIA already had in stock in that case without any customisation at all, with PS3 nVIDIA only integrated (badly perhaps) the FlexIO bus connecting the GPU to the CELL CPU… for the OG Xbox, they went a bit farther (with a design that was more forward looking but not sure how much MS got their way and how much they had to bend to nVIDIA and Intel). I am sure nVIDIA may do things for a large price, just never seen them bend over backwards for these kind of semi custom design requirements and all console makers moved away from them (except Nintendo, but they got a very sweet deal and a chip that nVIDIA was not selling as much as they hoped and wanted to find a home for). They did get a slight design update for one of the Switch revisions that lowered power consumption though so there is that: I wonder how much it cost them though.

 

[diffusionx]

By finished I mean that they got sometime nVIDIA already had in stock in that case without any customisation at all, with PS3 nVIDIA only integrated (badly perhaps) the FlexIO bus connecting the GPU to the CELL CPU… for the OG Xbox, they went a bit farther (with a design that was more forward looking but not sure how much MS got their way and how much they had to bend to nVIDIA and Intel). I am sure nVIDIA may do things for a large price, just never seen them bend over backwards for these kind of semi custom design requirements and all console makers moved away from them (except Nintendo, but they got a very sweet deal and a chip that nVIDIA was not selling as much as they hoped and wanted to find a home for). They did get a slight design update for one of the Switch revisions that lowered power consumption though so there is that: I wonder how much it cost them though.

The difference between now and those other situations is that there is no SOC just sitting around that Nvidia can sell to Nintendo. They have to do a custom design as everything they've been building since they canned their Shield stuff has been for AI, self-driving cars, stuff like that. Nvidia has to customize one of those chips for Nintendo's next system if they want to sell it to them, there is no reason to think that BC won't be part of that customization.

 

[Panajev2001a]

You know, I was thinking recently about Nintendo game development. Awhile ago pretty much all developers came out and said the jump to HD ballooned budgets because of textures, animations and other general fidelity improvements. I wonder if Nintendo is specifically targeting lower end hardware to reduce development costs/time.

The last time Nintendo had a serious specs contender was the Gamecube. The Wii was a 480p machine, the Wii U was 720p. The switch is kind of 1080p/720p but with serious texture issues and production quality I would expect from a 360 or PS3. Doubling down on gameplay and hoping people give them a pass on graphics and other niceties?

Maybe but with more and more developers having now jumped that hoop, including lots of indies, they make ports from more expensive / stronger (PS5 digital, XSS, and Steam Deck are not that much more expensive systems than Switch either) more difficult and it might starve them of content unless we are talking about the biggest of the big one and you accept graphics and gameplay cuts.

If they could delivery a system that is Switch but running at double the clockspeed and with more faster RAM they would close the gap a bit but then a lot of cross generation titles have hid some of the next generation potential too…

 

[Panajev2001a]

The difference between now and those other situations is that there is no SOC just sitting around that Nvidia can sell to Nintendo. They have to do a custom design as everything they've been building since they canned their Shield stuff has been for AI, self-driving cars, stuff like that. Nvidia has to customize one of those chips for Nintendo's next system if they want to sell it to them, there is no reason to think that BC won't be part of that customization.

It seems a problem for Nintendo more than for nVIDIA and Nintendo has users that do not mind being drip fed BC titles from an online paid for service and getting others through full price remasters.

Not sure nVIDIA feels that much pressure to change the way they have worked with console partners for the last 20+ years especially when their partners may not be motivated to pay their weight in gold to do so and may have cheaper ways to get this to work for them (see NSO+expansion pack). We will see, but it would not surprise me if they went with software BC and a new nVIDIA SoC or a double clock speed Switch internal HW wise.

I think AMD is still the best console partner out of the two…

 

[Ozriel]

Switch´s Tegra X1 isnt using it´s full potential. Tegra X1 can run at 1 Ghz but in Switch it runs a 768 mhz in dock mode and 307 mhz in portable mode (with a boost mode reaching around 400 mhz).

So, Nintendo could use Tegra X1 at full speed of 1 Ghz in dock mode and 500 mhz in portable mode in the new model.

But there is a Tegra X1+ which runs at 125% speed of Tegra X1, so even more power for the new model can be achieved without changing the chipset.

You cannot be serious with this.
Of course they aren’t going to use the ancient X1 chip.
The next gen version will be significantly more powerful, and will use a much more modern SoC on a smaller process node

 

[Seider]

You cannot be serious with this.
Of course they aren’t going to use the ancient X1 chip.
The next gen version will be significantly more powerful, and will use a much more modern SoC on a smaller process node

Im not sure Nintendo will do a next gen Switch. Its more like a New Switch.

Nintendo already did this with Gamecube ---) Wii and with Nintendo 3DS ---) New Nintendo 3DS.

Nintendo isnt interested in next gen graphics. Nintendo aims to continue with their success with Switch and profit its 120 millions users base.

Developers can do games that will run on both old Switch and New Switch, with improvements on new model.

 

[diffusionx]

It seems a problem for Nintendo more than for nVIDIA and Nintendo has users that do not mind being drip fed BC titles from an online paid for service and getting others through full price remasters.

Not sure nVIDIA feels that much pressure to change the way they have worked with console partners for the last 20+ years especially when their partners may not be motivated to pay their weight in gold to do so and may have cheaper ways to get this to work for them (see NSO+expansion pack). We will see, but it would not surprise me if they went with software BC and a new nVIDIA SoC or a double clock speed Switch internal HW wise.

I think AMD is still the best console partner out of the two…

I don't think NSO is relevant to this at all, we are not talking about running games from 1990 but from the current hardware generation. I don't know what Nvidia will do but I also do not think the way they behaved in 2001 or 2005 is relevant here. Also worth noting that after years of flying high with crypto, Nvidia is not doing well right now and may be more willing to please a guaranteed partner like Nintendo right now.

 

[Mokus]

I hope they don't cheap out on the backwards compatibility.

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

What happened to the video, was it pulled?

 

[jshackles]

I literally have hundreds of Switch games, both physical and digital. It's my physical console of choice, because the cartridges have a lot longer shelf life than optical discs, and (typically) the full game is actually on the cartridge and is fully playable without internet access. I currently own six Switch consoles.

If the next Switch is backwards compatible, I'm buying it day one. If not, I might eventually pick one up down the line. But, I won't be in a huge rush or anything. I might pick it up when it has enough interesting exclusives.

 

[Gamerfan81]

IS there a legit source that Nintendo might not have backwards compatibility with it's next hardware successor? I'm sorry if I don't trust random Youtube guys or some random person on twitter saying that Sony is about to buy Take 2, which the other thread is about.

 

[Mr Branding]

If this happens to be true…

 

[M1chl]

So they won't use ARM? Doubt times 10

 

[Clintizzle]

I've started an OnlyFans so that I can afford to pay for all the 1080P remasters on Switch 2