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Telegraph: Tory and Labour MPs plot secret deal to ensure soft Brexit

GamingKaiju

GamingKaiju

Member
scamander said:
I only see three scenarios the EU would be ok with.
I. Hard Brexit
II. The UK becomes a member of EFTA
III. The UK stays a member of the EU, but will lose all extra privileges and can't trigger article 50 for at least another 20 years.

The third option is the only one the UK will keep influence over the EU and it is also the least likely one. Personally, as much as I can empathise with everyone from the UK who never wanted to leave, I don't want the UK to hold Europe back anymore. The second option is basically the same deal, with the added bonus of not offering democratic representation to the electorate that voted for this mess. In my book, that's a plus for progressives from the UK, too.
Click to expand...

I would take option 3 personally hopefully we keep the £ and offer Nigel farages head in return for the UK staying in. If we were going to stay in the EU we need to start working better with the EU and not hold it back.

More progressive pro-EU MP's in parliament and never, ever, ever mention Brexit again.
 
S

Stallion Dan

Member
Goodlife said:
No way, we actually need migration to help our economy? I, for one, am shocked, I was told and fully believed that migration was draining us dry and everyone who was coming over was a scrounger.

Hmm, now, how could we sort that? How about we have freedom of movement, but anyone who comes over here and doesn't have a job after, say 3 months, has to leave? That sounds fairly sensible doesn't it?

If only there was a system like this we could put in place within the current EU rules....
Click to expand...

This shit keeps wages low and cost of living high, it's not good for the people here.
 
ShiroAmakusa

ShiroAmakusa

Member
Funky Papa said:
Schaeuble and Oettinger are proof of Germany producing the best villains in the world.
Click to expand...

I give you Oettinger but Schaeuble? He changed after the assassination attempt on his life. He was pretty conservative before that but in the years that followed, he basically turned into a comic book villian.
 
B

Breakage

Member
We are never gonna get a better deal than what we have now. So why are politicians still harping on about getting the "best deal"?
 
M

Meadows

Banned
scamander said:
Oh, I know the UK would never take the deal. All I was saying is that those are probably conditions the EU would insist on, in case the UK wants to stay. Those conditions are not meant to be punishments btw. They are a necessity to protect the EU while dealing with an unstable/ unreliable partner and also a reminder that the UK is an EQUAL among 28 member states and not some special entity. There would be no more special treatment for the UK and that has to be made very clear.
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I'm hugely pro-EU but the idea that the UK is the only one to get any "special treatment" in the EU is a huge over-simplification. (e.g. France's use of CAP funding).
 
A

autumnleaf

Member
The Greek Freak said:
I understand choosing a leader on a barely above 50% vote, but it always seemed like madness to put Brexit on a 50% vote when it's not something that could be reversed in 2-3 years.

Something as country changing as Brexit should've required a mandate.
Click to expand...

Well the thing was the referendum was only advisory, absolutely nothing had to happen. The tabloids whipped themselves into a frenzy though and the Tories were too weak to take a sensible stance.
 
S

scamander

Banned
Meadows said:
I'm hugely pro-EU but the idea that the UK is the only one to get any "special treatment" in the EU is a huge over-simplification. (e.g. France's use of CAP funding).
Click to expand...

CAP funding has to be reformed in general. As far as I know France has no official privileges, though. The UK on the other hand often blocked any attempt at further unification and used any chance to squeeze more money/ special treatment out of the EU. You (as a country) never identified with the European project, it's always been nothing more than a way to gain benefits and useful as a scapegoat for your own governments fuck-ups. The UK doesn't understand that there is a greater good and that you have to contribute.
 
K

Koren

Member
pigeon said:
Step in the right direction. The next step is realizing that the softest Brexit is no Brexit at all.
Click to expand...
It's hard to go against a public vote (in France, the european constitution vote failed, and after that, they basically did what people refused by referendum, barring the name... but it badly hurt both Europe building and the way politics are seen)

But with a soft Brexit, you'll basically get the same situation as before, except that you can't vote and express your mind about changes in the single market.

I'm not sure a harder Brexit is better (I personally don't think so, but that's UK people choice) but it seems obvious that a soft Brexit is a net loss compared to no Brexit at all...
 
P

Pyramid head

Banned
The Greek Freak said:
I understand choosing a leader on a barely above 50% vote, but it always seemed like madness to put Brexit on a 50% vote when it's not something that could be reversed in 2-3 years.

Something as country changing as Brexit should've required a mandate.
Click to expand...

Funny thing is, behind closed doors the government could back out of Brexit but lie to leave voters and tell them 'it totally happened, we got all the best deals, loads of sovereignty all over the place', and that would be enough to placate them. The thick twats wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Half of them thought Brexit already happened the moment the results of the referendum were announced.
 
F

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
scamander said:
CAP funding has to be reformed in general.
Click to expand...

Hello.

Tajani proposes ‘Copernican revolution’ in EU budget


The officials defended more than halving the funds for farmers because they “account for 2 percent of EU gross domestic product and get nearly 40 percent of the budget.”

The Italian conservative’s plan will also look to reshape drastically the way EU funds are allocated to member countries.

“We have identified four priority areas for EU citizens: security, immigration, youth unemployment and climate change,” a second senior official said.
Click to expand...
 
F

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
I mean, that goes without saying. Three out of the big 4 will bitch to no end, but the fact that there are changes afoot is something.
 
S

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
I'm not really sure why the EU should allow a soft Brexit. It seems to me that the long term political and economic value of certainty within the union exceeds the short term economic value of increased trade or mobility with the UK. This will be minorly inconvenient for Britons in Europe and Europeans in Britain for now, but I think most of them explain this lunacy has been caused by the UK's bizarre self-defeating behaviour.
 
S

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
theaface said:
Same stable trading arrangements with the UK and stripping them of all of their power at the same time, limiting their ability to be beligerent? Why wouldn't they go for a soft Brexit?
Click to expand...

There's no doubt that countries who wish to have all the responsibilities of an EU state and none of the rights (like Norway) benefit the EU, but my sense is that in spite of that narrow benefit, it's in Europe's interest to minimize future uncertainty within the union, and do so by making it a very clear example that those leaving Europe lose. Soft Brexit allows partial face saving by England, even if in practice it's a worse deal for them than their prior arrangement.
 
R

Royal_Phalanx

Member
Stumpokapow said:
There's no doubt that countries who wish to have all the responsibilities of an EU state and none of the rights (like Norway) benefit the EU, but my sense is that in spite of that narrow benefit, it's in Europe's interest to minimize future uncertainty within the union, and do so by making it a very clear example that those leaving Europe lose. Soft Brexit allows partial face saving by England, even if in practice it's a worse deal for them than their prior arrangement.
Click to expand...

It's a win for the EU in that they can say "see, you can't sever all ties with us and profit from it".

I can imagine that an easy solution to the free movement thing is "everyone with a job offer that meets the industry standard average wage for their position can move". No labour market testing nonsense, EU citizens are on equal footing with UK citizens for job applications, and is the same vice versa, but you can't claim benefits for say, 5 years.
 
F

Faddy

Banned
Breakage said:
We are never gonna get a better deal than what we have now. So why are politicians still harping on about getting the "best deal"?
Click to expand...

We were going to get a better deal if Remain won and Cameron got his concessions. which were actually quite decent. The EU is probably in a better position since the UK voted leave since the whole thing is a giant turd that has cost 2 PMs dearly. No other country wants that.

I'm hoping we get a Norway style deal, eat huge amounts of crow and the EU can continue making good laws without Little Englanders like Farage there to fuck things up. Brexit done.
 
X

Xando

Member
What a plot twist compared to last week.

So are they going to accept FoM or is this just a soft brexit compared to no deal?
 
P

Purkake4

Banned
Meadows said:
May has always been a passenger on various trains, she has absolutely no ideology or belief system whatsoever. Whether that is a bad thing or a good thing depends on your perspective.
Click to expand...
It'll still be her head when the Brexiteers are unhappy with the results.
 
M

Meadows

Banned
Purkake4 said:
It'll still be her head when the Brexiteers are unhappy with the results.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I mean at the moment she's just a vessel for the Conservative Party as a whole.

This is a good thing because that means she will have to listen to pro-EU voices (Hammond, Clarke etc) rather than just Davis, BoJo and Fox.
 
P

Purkake4

Banned
Meadows said:
Yeah, I mean at the moment she's just a vessel for the Conservative Party as a whole.

This is a good thing because that means she will have to listen to pro-EU voices (Hammond, Clarke etc) rather than just Davis, BoJo and Fox.
Click to expand...
What's the criteria for recall votes again?
 
L

liquidtmd

Banned
Call a second ref November, I can see it supporting revoking art 50 by 60%.

Strip our privileges, ban another ref for 25 years, let the world laugh for a few years and that be the end of it
 
GamingKaiju

GamingKaiju

Member
liquidtmd said:
Call a second ref November, I can see it supporting revoking art 50 by 60%.

Strip our privileges, ban another ref for 25 years, let the world laugh for a few years and that be the end of it
Click to expand...

Is it possible that May's final act of being PM is to revoke art.50?

The Tories are toast they've fucked up huge. The best thing they can do is to rescind Art.50 cancelling Brexit concede defeat at a GE so they can start rebuilding their party.
 
J

Joni

Member
GamingKaiju said:
Is it possible that May's final act of being PM is to revoke art.50?

The Tories are toast they've fucked up huge. The best thing they can do is to rescind Art.50 cancelling Brexit concede defeat at a GE so they can start rebuilding their party.
Click to expand...

There is no process for actually doing so.
 
Theonik

Theonik

Member
Joni said:
There is no process for actually doing so.
Click to expand...
There is no real process for exiting the EU anyway everyone is making it up as they go along. Article 50 does very little to detail the withdrawal process especially considering the amount of work that needs to be done.

In fact, many EU treaties are this way. The Eurozone bailouts are a textbook example of this where a lot of the frameworks had to be written as the crisis went along.
Until of course this stopped being convenient where it defaulted to 'Not predicted by the treaties!'
 
GamingKaiju

GamingKaiju

Member
Joni said:
There is no process for actually doing so.
Click to expand...

Sure revoking Art.50 has never been tested but the EU have been very clear "no" Brexit or a hard Brexit. Even today they've told news agencies that the UK has an open door back into the EU.

Just revoke Article 50.

Obviously I do believe there will be some talks over the subject and loss of privileges.

Edit:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-eu-withdrawal-open-doors-change-mind-german-finance-minister-wolfgang-sch-uble-a7787736.html
 
T

Tacitus_

Member
Joni said:
There is no process for actually doing so.
Click to expand...

The UK might be able revoke Article 50, however...

The resolution states that the UK will be able to revoke its Article 50 notification but this must be "subject to conditions set by all EU27 so they cannot be used as a procedural device or abused in an attempt to improve the actual terms of the United Kingdom's membership."
Click to expand...
http://nordic.businessinsider.com/eu-brexit-resolution-article-50-can-be-revoked-2017-3?r=UK&IR=T

So that would open the question of what concessions the UK would have to make because of all the trouble they started.
 
Theonik

Theonik

Member
Tacitus_ said:
The UK might be able revoke Article 50, however...


http://nordic.businessinsider.com/eu-brexit-resolution-article-50-can-be-revoked-2017-3?r=UK&IR=T

So that would open the question of what concessions the UK would have to make because of all the trouble they started.
Click to expand...
Expect the UK to tell the EU to rightfully fuck off at that. This is in clear violation of the treaties and a unilateral interpretation/stance on the EU27's end.
To attempt to extend treaties without the UK's approval would be shot down on legal challenge too.
 
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