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Texas father, one of FBI's 10 most wanted fugitives, arrested for daughters' 2008 "honor killing"

belmarduk

Member
A Dallas-area taxicab driver wanted for the 2008 slayings of his two teenage daughters was arrested Wednesday in a small North Texas town, the FBI said. Agents arrested Yaser Abdel Said, 63, in Justin, 36 miles northwest of Dallas.

The Egyptian-born suspect had been sought on a capital murder warrant since the New Year's Day 2008 fatal shootings of the two Lewisville High School students, Sarah Yaser Said, 17, and Amina Yaser Said, 18. Court documents list no attorney for the suspect.

A police report at the time said a family member told investigators that the suspect threatened "bodily harm″ against Sarah for going on a date with a non-Muslim. The mother, Patricia Said, fled with her daughters in the week before their deaths because she was in "great fear for her life." Gail Gattrell, the sisters' great-aunt, has called the deaths an "honor killing," in which a woman is murdered by a relative to protect her family's honor.

The teenage sisters were found shot multiple times in a cab outside a motel in Irving, a Dallas suburb. Police found them after one of the girls called 911 from a cellphone and said she was dying.

...
CBS News

So wonderful they finally caught him.
 

supernova8

Banned
Honor killings have been (maybe still are?) a huge issue in the UK too. Common pattern was that the son/daughter would refuse to marry whoever the family chose for them, then the family would lure them to Pakistan (far less secure than the UK of course) and then try to kill them in a way that would look staged. Then family comes back to the UK and nobody is the wiser.

Absolutely despicable that parents would even think to kill their children just because they won't marry a certain person. It's living proof that some cultures are definitely better than others.
 
to go through with murdering your own flesh and blood is just cold. and all for the sake of the family name and culture.

i wonder if they were aware of the consequences growing up in that household.

no halfbloods allowed! what a melting pot we live in....

he better have been crying while he shot them.

and all because of a date. ie. a hanging out. what a shame.
 
I hope this guy rot in jail for the rest of his life, which from the looks of things, will probably happen. religious fundamentalist that still carrying things that goes against modern day ethics is just the worst. there might be a reason to do things a certain way back in the days, but you have to understand why it was done that way and if that's actually something you should still keep doing in a completely changed world.
 

DogofWar

Member
Honor killings/crimes are far too common in Sweden as well.

What sort of demented, twisted scum of a human see any "honor" in killing their own children?
I hope he rots in jail. Or is there capital punishment in Texas still?
There was also a case here were a son kicked his mom in the head on national television after she had escaped from his father. When they were finally reunited he somehow thought this would "defend his father's honor".

Sickening.
 
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I actually heard about this man a couple years ago. What I remember about him is that he had a weird moustache that made him resemble Hitler.
 

nbcjr

Member
Honor killings have been (maybe still are?) a huge issue in the UK too. Common pattern was that the son/daughter would refuse to marry whoever the family chose for them, then the family would lure them to Pakistan (far less secure than the UK of course) and then try to kill them in a way that would look staged. Then family comes back to the UK and nobody is the wiser.

Absolutely despicable that parents would even think to kill their children just because they won't marry a certain person. It's living proof that some cultures are definitely better than others.
would it be dying proof?
 

DESTROYA

Member
What a disgusting thing to do to your own flesh and blood. Damn shame it took this long for him to get caught but better late then never.
 
S

SLoWMoTIoN

Unconfirmed Member
Finally. Strangely enough I was reading up on him earlier this month only because I remembered watching a show (or episode) 7 years ago about him. I was wondering if he had gotten caught yet the other day as well. How queer.
 
Yup islam is trash
The concept of honor killing didn't originate from Islam.

It's prohibited to kill your own daughter for whatever reason, let alone having pre-marital sex.

Just like female circumcision, it's all a cultural innovation that used that specific region's predominate religion as justification for such a heinous act.

A bonus fact: Islam prohibited the infanticide of female babies in the Arab region of the world when it was far too common for female babies getting buried alive for no good reason other than being female.
 
Yup islam is trash
Historical Context - Origins of Honour Killing
Honour killings have been known since ancient Roman times, when the pater familias, or senior male within a household, retained the right to kill an unmarried but sexually active daughter or an adulterous wife.Footnote39Honour-based crimes were known in medieval Europe where early Jewish law mandated death by stoning for an adulterous wife and her partner.Footnote40 Today the practice is most commonly associated with regions in North Africa and the Middle East.

Sharif Kanaana, professor of anthropology at Birzeit University states that honour killing is "a complicated issue that cuts deep into the history of Arab society." He further observes:

What the men of the family, clan, or tribe seek control of in a patrilineal society is reproductive power. Women for the tribe were considered a factory for making men. The honor killing is not a means to control sexual power or behavior. What's behind it is the issue of fertility, or reproductive power.Footnote41
Historically, in some Arab countries under Ottoman rule, a killer would "sprinkle his victim's blood on his clothes and parade through the streets displaying the bloody murder weapon… to increase his honour,"thereby attracting community respect rather than condemnation for taking a life. Footnote42

It is not necessary that the victim actually transgress any behavioural norms, as an Amnesty International statement notes:

The mere perception that a woman has contravened the code of sexual behavior damages honor. The regime of honor is unforgiving: women on whom suspicion has fallen are not given an opportunity to defend themselves, and family members have no socially acceptable alternative but to remove the stain on their honor by attacking the woman.Footnote43
This can be explained on the basis of the feudal and cultural mind-sets. In the perpetrators' faulty vision, "It is better to eliminate the suspect before the matter blows out of proportion and the talk spreads to the community," even where the suspicion is groundless.Footnote44

5. Honour Killing - Worldwide
The notions of honour and shame and their use as justification for violence and killing is not unique to any one culture or religion.Footnote45Indeed, honour and honour-based violence are reflected in historical events in many countries, and in many works of literature.

For instance, duelling was a key practice through which claims of masculine honour were made, maintained and understood in Western societies.Footnote46 In France, Le Cid told the story of a man insulted by a slap across the face, who asked his son to defend his honour in a duel. In Canada, duelling continued into the late 1800s.Footnote47

In Britain, for example, the fifth wife of Henry VIII was beheaded based on allegations of adultery. In British literature, Shakespeare's Desdemona was killed over allegations of infidelity, and Romeo and Juliet tracked an ancient family feud over honour. King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table centred on notions of honour. The premise of the Three Musketeers was the King's guards avenging the betrayal of the king by Cardinal Richelieu.

Similar notions can be traced in Latin American societies. In Brazil and parts of Latin America, machismo is often described as a code of honour. In the early times of Peru, the laws of the Incas permitted husbands to starve their wives to death as punishment for committing an adulterous act. Aztec laws resulted in death by stoning or strangulation for female adultery during the early times of Mexico.Footnote48

Several great wars started over honour. Likely the clearest of these was the Trojan War, which began over the honour of Helen. Her father required that all her suitors defend his choice for her marriage, thereby setting all of Greece against Troy.

In Ancient Roman times, the senior male within a household retained the right to kill a related woman if she was engaged in pre-marital or extra-marital relations.Footnote49According to Blackstone, the Roman law justified homicide "when committed in defence of the chastity either of oneself or relations".Footnote50

Honour-based violenceFootnote51 can be between men only, and sometimes involves women as collaborators. However, it appears to be perpetrated almost exclusively by men against women and children whom they consider to "belong" to them. It generally appears in the following sets of circumstances:

  • Adultery
  • Pre-marital sex or having a child out of wedlock (although honour may be restored through a "shotgun wedding")
  • Disobeying parents, or
  • Patriotism/Personal Insult/Defaulting on Monetary Debts (typically between men).
Honour is expressed in many other terms, including "vengeance," "avenging," "saving face," etc. However, it is notable that honour-based killings in most Arab and South Asian countries are perpetrated against daughters, sisters or nieces and not against wives. The reason may relate to the distinction between dishonouring as "collective" injury as opposed to dishonouring as "individual" injury.Footnote52 In community-based honour systems, a husband's feelings of jealousy, which could be classified as individual hurt pride or honour, are not generally viewed as sufficient grounds for murder. However, the transgressions of a wife can cause a collective injury to her family of origin, which is ultimately responsible for punishing her.Footnote53

One author speculates that the concepts of "honour" and "shame" can be found in modern Western forms of intimate-partner violence, noting that the notion of honour in such cases is highly individualized and based on the abuser's personal code of behaviour imposed upon the victim.Footnote54

As one author notes:

Among the most interesting findings reported by social scientists is the fact that men and women stand in a markedly different relationship to the whole system of allotting honor in "cultures of honor." For example, one observation that has been made recurrently is that men are the only possible sources, or active generators (agents), of honor. The only active effect that women can have on honor, in those cultures in which this is a central value, is to destroy it. But women do have that power: they can destroy the honor of the males in their household. The culturally defined symbol system through which women in patriarchies bring honor or dishonor to men is the world of sex -- that is, female sexual behavior. In this value system, which is both absurd from any rational standpoint and highly dangerous to the continued survival of our species given its effect of stimulating male violence, men delegate to women the power to bring dishonor on men. That is, men put their honor in the hands of 'their' women."Footnote55
Another author has contrasted cultures of honour with cultures of law:

One can contrast cultures of honour with cultures of law. From the viewpoint of anthropology, cultures of honour typically appear among nomadic peoples and herdsmen who carry their most valuable property with them and risk having it stolen, without having recourse to law enforcement or government. In this situation, inspiring fear forms a better strategy than promoting friendship; and cultivating a reputation for swift and disproportionate revenge increases the safety of your person and property. Thinkers ranging from Montesquieu to Steven Pinker have remarked upon the mindset needed for a culture of honour.
Cultures of honour therefore appear amongst Bedouins, Scottish and English herdsmen of the Border country, and many similar peoples, who have little allegiance to a national government; among cowboys, frontiersmen, and ranchers of the American West, where official law-enforcement often remained out of reach, as famously celebrated in Western movies; and among aristocrats, who enjoy hereditary privileges that put them beyond the reach of general laws. Cultures of honour also flourish in criminal underworlds and gangs, whose members carry large amounts of cash and contraband and cannot complain to the law if it is stolen. …
Once a culture of honour exists, it is difficult for its members to make the transition to a culture of law; this requires that people become willing to back down and refuse to immediately retaliate, and from the viewpoint of the culture of honour this appears as a weak and unwise act.Footnote56
6. Honour Killing - In Countries with Islamic Law
In many Arab countries, the practice of honour killing dates back to pre-Islamic times when Arab settlers occupied a region adjacent to Sindh, known as Baluchistan (in Pakistan).Footnote57 These Arab settlers had patriarchal traditions such as live burials of newly born daughters. Such traditions trace back to the earliest historic times of Ancient Babylon, where the predominant view was that a woman's virginity belonged to her family.Footnote58

There is no mention of honour killing in the Quran or Hadiths. Honour killing, in Islamic definitions, refers specifically to extra-legal punishment by the family against a woman, and is forbidden by the Sharia (Islamic law). Religious authorities disagree with extra punishments such as honour killing and prohibit it, so the practice of it is a cultural and not a religious issue. However, since Islam has influence over vast numbers of Muslims in many countries and from many cultures, some use Islam to justify honour killing even though there is no support for honour killing in Islam.

Traditional interpretations of Islamic law (or Sharia) prescribe severe punishments for zina, or extramarital sex, by both men and women. This is, however, not a new practice; it has been around since ancient times and is common practice in other religions and cultures as well. Under Islamic law, premarital sex could be punished by up to 100 lashes, while adultery is punishable by lethal stoning. The act must, however, be attested by at least four Muslim male witnesses of good character. Punishments are reserved to the legal authorities, and false accusations are themselves punished severely.

The execution of the Saudi Arabian princess Misha'al is an example of an honour killing in which the execution did not follow any Islamic religious court proceeding but was ordered directly by her grandfather after she admitted adultery.Footnote59

Interpretations of these rules vary. Some Arabs regard it as their right under both tradition and Sharia (by the process of al-urf), though this contradicts the views of the vast majority of Islamic scholars (fuqaha). Ayatollah Ali Khamenei of Iran has condemned the practice as "un-Islamic", though punishment under Iranian law remains lenient for those who commit honour-based killings.

In Indonesia, generally believed to be the country with the largest Muslim population, honour killings are unknown, as is the case in parts of West Africa with majority-Muslim populations and in many other Islamic countries such as Bangladesh. According to Sheikh Atiyyah Saqr, former head of the al-Azhar University Fatwa Committee:

Like all other religions, Islam strictly prohibits murder and killing without legal justification. Allah, Most High, says, "Whoso slayeth a believer of set purpose, his reward is Hell for ever. Allah is wroth against him and He hath cursed him and prepared for him an awful doom." (An-Nisa': 93) The so-called "honor killing" is based on ignorance and disregard of morals and laws, which cannot be abolished except by disciplinary punishments.Footnote60
 

Tschumi

Member
Historical Context - Origins of Honour Killing
Honour killings have been known since ancient Roman times, when the pater familias, or senior male within a household, retained the right to kill an unmarried but sexually active daughter or an adulterous wife.Footnote39Honour-based crimes were known in medieval Europe where early Jewish law mandated death by stoning for an adulterous wife and her partner.Footnote40 Today the practice is most commonly associated with regions in North Africa and the Middle East.

Sharif Kanaana, professor of anthropology at Birzeit University states that honour killing is "a complicated issue that cuts deep into the history of Arab society." He further observes:


Historically, in some Arab countries under Ottoman rule, a killer would "sprinkle his victim's blood on his clothes and parade through the streets displaying the bloody murder weapon… to increase his honour,"thereby attracting community respect rather than condemnation for taking a life. Footnote42

It is not necessary that the victim actually transgress any behavioural norms, as an Amnesty International statement notes:


This can be explained on the basis of the feudal and cultural mind-sets. In the perpetrators' faulty vision, "It is better to eliminate the suspect before the matter blows out of proportion and the talk spreads to the community," even where the suspicion is groundless.Footnote44

5. Honour Killing - Worldwide
The notions of honour and shame and their use as justification for violence and killing is not unique to any one culture or religion.Footnote45Indeed, honour and honour-based violence are reflected in historical events in many countries, and in many works of literature.

For instance, duelling was a key practice through which claims of masculine honour were made, maintained and understood in Western societies.Footnote46 In France, Le Cid told the story of a man insulted by a slap across the face, who asked his son to defend his honour in a duel. In Canada, duelling continued into the late 1800s.Footnote47

In Britain, for example, the fifth wife of Henry VIII was beheaded based on allegations of adultery. In British literature, Shakespeare's Desdemona was killed over allegations of infidelity, and Romeo and Juliet tracked an ancient family feud over honour. King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table centred on notions of honour. The premise of the Three Musketeers was the King's guards avenging the betrayal of the king by Cardinal Richelieu.

Similar notions can be traced in Latin American societies. In Brazil and parts of Latin America, machismo is often described as a code of honour. In the early times of Peru, the laws of the Incas permitted husbands to starve their wives to death as punishment for committing an adulterous act. Aztec laws resulted in death by stoning or strangulation for female adultery during the early times of Mexico.Footnote48

Several great wars started over honour. Likely the clearest of these was the Trojan War, which began over the honour of Helen. Her father required that all her suitors defend his choice for her marriage, thereby setting all of Greece against Troy.

In Ancient Roman times, the senior male within a household retained the right to kill a related woman if she was engaged in pre-marital or extra-marital relations.Footnote49According to Blackstone, the Roman law justified homicide "when committed in defence of the chastity either of oneself or relations".Footnote50

Honour-based violenceFootnote51 can be between men only, and sometimes involves women as collaborators. However, it appears to be perpetrated almost exclusively by men against women and children whom they consider to "belong" to them. It generally appears in the following sets of circumstances:

  • Adultery
  • Pre-marital sex or having a child out of wedlock (although honour may be restored through a "shotgun wedding")
  • Disobeying parents, or
  • Patriotism/Personal Insult/Defaulting on Monetary Debts (typically between men).
Honour is expressed in many other terms, including "vengeance," "avenging," "saving face," etc. However, it is notable that honour-based killings in most Arab and South Asian countries are perpetrated against daughters, sisters or nieces and not against wives. The reason may relate to the distinction between dishonouring as "collective" injury as opposed to dishonouring as "individual" injury.Footnote52 In community-based honour systems, a husband's feelings of jealousy, which could be classified as individual hurt pride or honour, are not generally viewed as sufficient grounds for murder. However, the transgressions of a wife can cause a collective injury to her family of origin, which is ultimately responsible for punishing her.Footnote53

One author speculates that the concepts of "honour" and "shame" can be found in modern Western forms of intimate-partner violence, noting that the notion of honour in such cases is highly individualized and based on the abuser's personal code of behaviour imposed upon the victim.Footnote54

As one author notes:


Another author has contrasted cultures of honour with cultures of law:


6. Honour Killing - In Countries with Islamic Law
In many Arab countries, the practice of honour killing dates back to pre-Islamic times when Arab settlers occupied a region adjacent to Sindh, known as Baluchistan (in Pakistan).Footnote57 These Arab settlers had patriarchal traditions such as live burials of newly born daughters. Such traditions trace back to the earliest historic times of Ancient Babylon, where the predominant view was that a woman's virginity belonged to her family.Footnote58

There is no mention of honour killing in the Quran or Hadiths. Honour killing, in Islamic definitions, refers specifically to extra-legal punishment by the family against a woman, and is forbidden by the Sharia (Islamic law). Religious authorities disagree with extra punishments such as honour killing and prohibit it, so the practice of it is a cultural and not a religious issue. However, since Islam has influence over vast numbers of Muslims in many countries and from many cultures, some use Islam to justify honour killing even though there is no support for honour killing in Islam.

Traditional interpretations of Islamic law (or Sharia) prescribe severe punishments for zina, or extramarital sex, by both men and women. This is, however, not a new practice; it has been around since ancient times and is common practice in other religions and cultures as well. Under Islamic law, premarital sex could be punished by up to 100 lashes, while adultery is punishable by lethal stoning. The act must, however, be attested by at least four Muslim male witnesses of good character. Punishments are reserved to the legal authorities, and false accusations are themselves punished severely.

The execution of the Saudi Arabian princess Misha'al is an example of an honour killing in which the execution did not follow any Islamic religious court proceeding but was ordered directly by her grandfather after she admitted adultery.Footnote59

Interpretations of these rules vary. Some Arabs regard it as their right under both tradition and Sharia (by the process of al-urf), though this contradicts the views of the vast majority of Islamic scholars (fuqaha). Ayatollah Ali Khamenei of Iran has condemned the practice as "un-Islamic", though punishment under Iranian law remains lenient for those who commit honour-based killings.

In Indonesia, generally believed to be the country with the largest Muslim population, honour killings are unknown, as is the case in parts of West Africa with majority-Muslim populations and in many other Islamic countries such as Bangladesh. According to Sheikh Atiyyah Saqr, former head of the al-Azhar University Fatwa Committee:
The moment i saw this thread i started searching for solid sources to debunk anyone who wanted to paint Muslims with this brush.. glad to see you got there first~

~~~~~

That man must have been colossally deluded and stupid, and I'm sure those girls' didn't suffer only that final, fatal injustice from the hands of that wanker in their lives. I have seen first hand the life long scars left by a thoughtless old bastard thinking a punch to any of their preteen daughters is just a punch. What a hell of insecurity and trust issues they must have lived through...

This guy isn't worthy of a term like "most wanted", you don't "want" someone like this, you just hunt them down and castrate them in any legally permissible way you can.
 

RoadHazard

Gold Member
Yeah, this isn't a religious issue, but an issue in certain cultures that are a bit stuck in the dark ages. It's despicable and needs to be eradicated (honor systems, not entire cultures obviously).
 
Stuff like this makes you want the legal system to be more smooth.

Convict 'm, put a bullet in his head. Shouldn't cost too much, right?
 

tryDEATH

Member
Stuff like this makes you want the legal system to be more smooth.

Convict 'm, put a bullet in his head. Shouldn't cost too much, right?

Thats a bit easy, for these sort of barbaric acts, he should also get barbaric treatment, which is a good old creative medieval torturing.
 
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The moment i saw this thread i started searching for solid sources to debunk anyone who wanted to paint Muslims with this brush.. glad to see you got there first~

~~~~~

That man must have been colossally deluded and stupid, and I'm sure those girls' didn't suffer only that final, fatal injustice from the hands of that wanker in their lives. I have seen first hand the life long scars left by a thoughtless old bastard thinking a punch to any of their preteen daughters is just a punch. What a hell of insecurity and trust issues they must have lived through...

This guy isn't worthy of a term like "most wanted", you don't "want" someone like this, you just hunt them down and castrate them in any legally permissible way you can.
I got soy-burns from the post you quoted and full-blown soy-aids from yours.
 
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S

SLoWMoTIoN

Unconfirmed Member
The concept of honor killing didn't originate from Islam.

It's prohibited to kill your own daughter for whatever reason, let alone having pre-marital sex.

Just like male circumcision, it's all a cultural innovation that used that specific region's predominate religion as justification for such a heinous act.

A bonus fact: Islam prohibited the infanticide of female babies in the Arab region of the world when it was far too common for female babies getting buried alive for no good reason other than being female.
Thanks for the info PC gamer.
 
Historical Context - Origins of Honour Killing
Honour killings have been known since ancient Roman times, when the pater familias, or senior male within a household, retained the right to kill an unmarried but sexually active daughter or an adulterous wife.Footnote39Honour-based crimes were known in medieval Europe where early Jewish law mandated death by stoning for an adulterous wife and her partner.Footnote40 Today the practice is most commonly associated with regions in North Africa and the Middle East.

Sharif Kanaana, professor of anthropology at Birzeit University states that honour killing is "a complicated issue that cuts deep into the history of Arab society." He further observes:


Historically, in some Arab countries under Ottoman rule, a killer would "sprinkle his victim's blood on his clothes and parade through the streets displaying the bloody murder weapon… to increase his honour,"thereby attracting community respect rather than condemnation for taking a life. Footnote42

It is not necessary that the victim actually transgress any behavioural norms, as an Amnesty International statement notes:


This can be explained on the basis of the feudal and cultural mind-sets. In the perpetrators' faulty vision, "It is better to eliminate the suspect before the matter blows out of proportion and the talk spreads to the community," even where the suspicion is groundless.Footnote44

5. Honour Killing - Worldwide
The notions of honour and shame and their use as justification for violence and killing is not unique to any one culture or religion.Footnote45Indeed, honour and honour-based violence are reflected in historical events in many countries, and in many works of literature.

For instance, duelling was a key practice through which claims of masculine honour were made, maintained and understood in Western societies.Footnote46 In France, Le Cid told the story of a man insulted by a slap across the face, who asked his son to defend his honour in a duel. In Canada, duelling continued into the late 1800s.Footnote47

In Britain, for example, the fifth wife of Henry VIII was beheaded based on allegations of adultery. In British literature, Shakespeare's Desdemona was killed over allegations of infidelity, and Romeo and Juliet tracked an ancient family feud over honour. King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table centred on notions of honour. The premise of the Three Musketeers was the King's guards avenging the betrayal of the king by Cardinal Richelieu.

Similar notions can be traced in Latin American societies. In Brazil and parts of Latin America, machismo is often described as a code of honour. In the early times of Peru, the laws of the Incas permitted husbands to starve their wives to death as punishment for committing an adulterous act. Aztec laws resulted in death by stoning or strangulation for female adultery during the early times of Mexico.Footnote48

Several great wars started over honour. Likely the clearest of these was the Trojan War, which began over the honour of Helen. Her father required that all her suitors defend his choice for her marriage, thereby setting all of Greece against Troy.

In Ancient Roman times, the senior male within a household retained the right to kill a related woman if she was engaged in pre-marital or extra-marital relations.Footnote49According to Blackstone, the Roman law justified homicide "when committed in defence of the chastity either of oneself or relations".Footnote50

Honour-based violenceFootnote51 can be between men only, and sometimes involves women as collaborators. However, it appears to be perpetrated almost exclusively by men against women and children whom they consider to "belong" to them. It generally appears in the following sets of circumstances:

  • Adultery
  • Pre-marital sex or having a child out of wedlock (although honour may be restored through a "shotgun wedding")
  • Disobeying parents, or
  • Patriotism/Personal Insult/Defaulting on Monetary Debts (typically between men).
Honour is expressed in many other terms, including "vengeance," "avenging," "saving face," etc. However, it is notable that honour-based killings in most Arab and South Asian countries are perpetrated against daughters, sisters or nieces and not against wives. The reason may relate to the distinction between dishonouring as "collective" injury as opposed to dishonouring as "individual" injury.Footnote52 In community-based honour systems, a husband's feelings of jealousy, which could be classified as individual hurt pride or honour, are not generally viewed as sufficient grounds for murder. However, the transgressions of a wife can cause a collective injury to her family of origin, which is ultimately responsible for punishing her.Footnote53

One author speculates that the concepts of "honour" and "shame" can be found in modern Western forms of intimate-partner violence, noting that the notion of honour in such cases is highly individualized and based on the abuser's personal code of behaviour imposed upon the victim.Footnote54

As one author notes:


Another author has contrasted cultures of honour with cultures of law:


6. Honour Killing - In Countries with Islamic Law
In many Arab countries, the practice of honour killing dates back to pre-Islamic times when Arab settlers occupied a region adjacent to Sindh, known as Baluchistan (in Pakistan).Footnote57 These Arab settlers had patriarchal traditions such as live burials of newly born daughters. Such traditions trace back to the earliest historic times of Ancient Babylon, where the predominant view was that a woman's virginity belonged to her family.Footnote58

There is no mention of honour killing in the Quran or Hadiths. Honour killing, in Islamic definitions, refers specifically to extra-legal punishment by the family against a woman, and is forbidden by the Sharia (Islamic law). Religious authorities disagree with extra punishments such as honour killing and prohibit it, so the practice of it is a cultural and not a religious issue. However, since Islam has influence over vast numbers of Muslims in many countries and from many cultures, some use Islam to justify honour killing even though there is no support for honour killing in Islam.

Traditional interpretations of Islamic law (or Sharia) prescribe severe punishments for zina, or extramarital sex, by both men and women. This is, however, not a new practice; it has been around since ancient times and is common practice in other religions and cultures as well. Under Islamic law, premarital sex could be punished by up to 100 lashes, while adultery is punishable by lethal stoning. The act must, however, be attested by at least four Muslim male witnesses of good character. Punishments are reserved to the legal authorities, and false accusations are themselves punished severely.

The execution of the Saudi Arabian princess Misha'al is an example of an honour killing in which the execution did not follow any Islamic religious court proceeding but was ordered directly by her grandfather after she admitted adultery.Footnote59

Interpretations of these rules vary. Some Arabs regard it as their right under both tradition and Sharia (by the process of al-urf), though this contradicts the views of the vast majority of Islamic scholars (fuqaha). Ayatollah Ali Khamenei of Iran has condemned the practice as "un-Islamic", though punishment under Iranian law remains lenient for those who commit honour-based killings.

In Indonesia, generally believed to be the country with the largest Muslim population, honour killings are unknown, as is the case in parts of West Africa with majority-Muslim populations and in many other Islamic countries such as Bangladesh. According to Sheikh Atiyyah Saqr, former head of the al-Azhar University Fatwa Committee:

My favourite part how everything not islam related is from hundreds or thousands of years ago
 

Tesseract

Banned
this is the endgame of any cult or religion that views women as property with no rights of their own as the motivation for this or that

bitch made punks that hurt women can get stomped
 
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GamingKaiju

Member
Honor killings have been (maybe still are?) a huge issue in the UK too. Common pattern was that the son/daughter would refuse to marry whoever the family chose for them, then the family would lure them to Pakistan (far less secure than the UK of course) and then try to kill them in a way that would look staged. Then family comes back to the UK and nobody is the wiser.

Absolutely despicable that parents would even think to kill their children just because they won't marry a certain person. It's living proof that some cultures are definitely better than others.

And this is why a lot of people say Islam is not compatible with western liberalism. I think many western born Muslims are starting to understand liberalism it’s a slow process but hopefully Islam will undergo modernisation and these ‘Honor killings’ will become a thing of the past.

Fun story:

One of my weed dealers is part of the Pakistan community and had to go over because of his drug taking, he hated it and couldn’t wait to comeback first thing he did was smoke a spliff lol the dude always had the best shit.
 

Paracelsus

Member
When I read the title, I was expecting something like this



Honor killings have been (maybe still are?) a huge issue in the UK too. Common pattern was that the son/daughter would refuse to marry whoever the family chose for them, then the family would lure them to Pakistan (far less secure than the UK of course) and then try to kill them in a way that would look staged. Then family comes back to the UK and nobody is the wiser.

Absolutely despicable that parents would even think to kill their children just because they won't marry a certain person. It's living proof that some cultures are definitely better than others.


 
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supernova8

Banned
Historical Context - Origins of Honour Killing
Honour killings have been known since ancient Roman times, when the pater familias, or senior male within a household, retained the right to kill an unmarried but sexually active daughter or an adulterous wife.Footnote39Honour-based crimes were known in medieval Europe where early Jewish law mandated death by stoning for an adulterous wife and her partner.Footnote40 Today the practice is most commonly associated with regions in North Africa and the Middle East.

Sharif Kanaana, professor of anthropology at Birzeit University states that honour killing is "a complicated issue that cuts deep into the history of Arab society." He further observes:


Historically, in some Arab countries under Ottoman rule, a killer would "sprinkle his victim's blood on his clothes and parade through the streets displaying the bloody murder weapon… to increase his honour,"thereby attracting community respect rather than condemnation for taking a life. Footnote42

It is not necessary that the victim actually transgress any behavioural norms, as an Amnesty International statement notes:


This can be explained on the basis of the feudal and cultural mind-sets. In the perpetrators' faulty vision, "It is better to eliminate the suspect before the matter blows out of proportion and the talk spreads to the community," even where the suspicion is groundless.Footnote44

5. Honour Killing - Worldwide
The notions of honour and shame and their use as justification for violence and killing is not unique to any one culture or religion.Footnote45Indeed, honour and honour-based violence are reflected in historical events in many countries, and in many works of literature.

For instance, duelling was a key practice through which claims of masculine honour were made, maintained and understood in Western societies.Footnote46 In France, Le Cid told the story of a man insulted by a slap across the face, who asked his son to defend his honour in a duel. In Canada, duelling continued into the late 1800s.Footnote47

In Britain, for example, the fifth wife of Henry VIII was beheaded based on allegations of adultery. In British literature, Shakespeare's Desdemona was killed over allegations of infidelity, and Romeo and Juliet tracked an ancient family feud over honour. King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table centred on notions of honour. The premise of the Three Musketeers was the King's guards avenging the betrayal of the king by Cardinal Richelieu.

Similar notions can be traced in Latin American societies. In Brazil and parts of Latin America, machismo is often described as a code of honour. In the early times of Peru, the laws of the Incas permitted husbands to starve their wives to death as punishment for committing an adulterous act. Aztec laws resulted in death by stoning or strangulation for female adultery during the early times of Mexico.Footnote48

Several great wars started over honour. Likely the clearest of these was the Trojan War, which began over the honour of Helen. Her father required that all her suitors defend his choice for her marriage, thereby setting all of Greece against Troy.

In Ancient Roman times, the senior male within a household retained the right to kill a related woman if she was engaged in pre-marital or extra-marital relations.Footnote49According to Blackstone, the Roman law justified homicide "when committed in defence of the chastity either of oneself or relations".Footnote50

Honour-based violenceFootnote51 can be between men only, and sometimes involves women as collaborators. However, it appears to be perpetrated almost exclusively by men against women and children whom they consider to "belong" to them. It generally appears in the following sets of circumstances:

  • Adultery
  • Pre-marital sex or having a child out of wedlock (although honour may be restored through a "shotgun wedding")
  • Disobeying parents, or
  • Patriotism/Personal Insult/Defaulting on Monetary Debts (typically between men).
Honour is expressed in many other terms, including "vengeance," "avenging," "saving face," etc. However, it is notable that honour-based killings in most Arab and South Asian countries are perpetrated against daughters, sisters or nieces and not against wives. The reason may relate to the distinction between dishonouring as "collective" injury as opposed to dishonouring as "individual" injury.Footnote52 In community-based honour systems, a husband's feelings of jealousy, which could be classified as individual hurt pride or honour, are not generally viewed as sufficient grounds for murder. However, the transgressions of a wife can cause a collective injury to her family of origin, which is ultimately responsible for punishing her.Footnote53

One author speculates that the concepts of "honour" and "shame" can be found in modern Western forms of intimate-partner violence, noting that the notion of honour in such cases is highly individualized and based on the abuser's personal code of behaviour imposed upon the victim.Footnote54

As one author notes:


Another author has contrasted cultures of honour with cultures of law:


6. Honour Killing - In Countries with Islamic Law
In many Arab countries, the practice of honour killing dates back to pre-Islamic times when Arab settlers occupied a region adjacent to Sindh, known as Baluchistan (in Pakistan).Footnote57 These Arab settlers had patriarchal traditions such as live burials of newly born daughters. Such traditions trace back to the earliest historic times of Ancient Babylon, where the predominant view was that a woman's virginity belonged to her family.Footnote58

There is no mention of honour killing in the Quran or Hadiths. Honour killing, in Islamic definitions, refers specifically to extra-legal punishment by the family against a woman, and is forbidden by the Sharia (Islamic law). Religious authorities disagree with extra punishments such as honour killing and prohibit it, so the practice of it is a cultural and not a religious issue. However, since Islam has influence over vast numbers of Muslims in many countries and from many cultures, some use Islam to justify honour killing even though there is no support for honour killing in Islam.

Traditional interpretations of Islamic law (or Sharia) prescribe severe punishments for zina, or extramarital sex, by both men and women. This is, however, not a new practice; it has been around since ancient times and is common practice in other religions and cultures as well. Under Islamic law, premarital sex could be punished by up to 100 lashes, while adultery is punishable by lethal stoning. The act must, however, be attested by at least four Muslim male witnesses of good character. Punishments are reserved to the legal authorities, and false accusations are themselves punished severely.

The execution of the Saudi Arabian princess Misha'al is an example of an honour killing in which the execution did not follow any Islamic religious court proceeding but was ordered directly by her grandfather after she admitted adultery.Footnote59

Interpretations of these rules vary. Some Arabs regard it as their right under both tradition and Sharia (by the process of al-urf), though this contradicts the views of the vast majority of Islamic scholars (fuqaha). Ayatollah Ali Khamenei of Iran has condemned the practice as "un-Islamic", though punishment under Iranian law remains lenient for those who commit honour-based killings.

In Indonesia, generally believed to be the country with the largest Muslim population, honour killings are unknown, as is the case in parts of West Africa with majority-Muslim populations and in many other Islamic countries such as Bangladesh. According to Sheikh Atiyyah Saqr, former head of the al-Azhar University Fatwa Committee:

I personally never said it directly came from Islam (and you didn't quote me so cool). I think the real issue is that the diehard devout Muslims are more likely (apparently) to do this sort of thing. I.e. if you consider the cases where cartoonists mocked Mohammed and there were literally riots and people getting killed. Think of the number of times people have mocked any other faith (Jesus, christian concept of god, Hindus, Jain, Judaism) at the very worst there's 'outrage' but pretty much never manifesting itself in killings.

It's definitely cultural and that's why some cultures are better than others (often but not exclusively backed up my jihadi-level Islamism).
 

Ballthyrm

Member
He forgot the rule where when you think of killing someone, always start with yourself. Save a lot of trouble for everyone.
 
I personally never said it directly came from Islam (and you didn't quote me so cool). I think the real issue is that the diehard devout Muslims are more likely (apparently) to do this sort of thing. I.e. if you consider the cases where cartoonists mocked Mohammed and there were literally riots and people getting killed. Think of the number of times people have mocked any other faith (Jesus, christian concept of god, Hindus, Jain, Judaism) at the very worst there's 'outrage' but pretty much never manifesting itself in killings.

It's definitely cultural and that's why some cultures are better than others (often but not exclusively backed up my jihadi-level Islamism).
In most cases, the diehard devout Muslims are the most ignorant of the bunch. They just want an excuse to get rowdy and try to justify their anger by saying its defending the religions honor.

Islamism is a silly term to use, but I get what you mean. Those reactions regarding the cartoons are terrible and to me signal the end of a rational and rational generation of Muslims.

They should have read what the Quraish Tribes did to Mubammed and said about Muhammed for two decades and yet, his companions knew better because Muhammad taught them better.

Anywho, overall, ignorance triumphs at the end of today's age.
 
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