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Amidst the 10 year anniversary stuff, the cost of war was talked about a lot. 4.5k US soldiers dead, 2 trillion spent, but i hadn't heard anything about the costs on the other end. So I did a little wiki search and excuse my ignorance but I had not realized that the total death toll for the war was approaching 200k.

Overall deaths: 176,000 – 189,000 (Costs of War Project)[35]
Civilian deaths: 134,000 (Costs of War Project)
Documented civilian deaths from violence, Iraq Body Count (2003 – 14 December 2011): 103,160–113,728 recorded[36] and 12,438 new deaths added from the Iraq War Logs[37]
Estimated violent deaths:
Lancet survey (March 2003 – July 2006): 601,027 (95% CI: 426,369–793,663)[38][39]
Associated Press (March 2003 – April 2009): 110,600[40]
Iraq Family Health Survey (March 2003 – July 2006): 151,000 (95% CI: 104,000–223,000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War

If these numbers are inaccurate in any way. let me know.

It's a shame that american media has been (at least in my viewing) glossing over the iraqi death toll when talking about the cost of war. i mean, it's by far the biggest cost amongst everything.

edit: Iraq War*

 

[Extra Sauce]

It's a good thing Cheney is too evil to lose sleep over it, and Bush too dumb.

 

[jaxword]

Keep these numbers handy for 10 years from now when we invade Iran or Egypt and need some comparatives.

 

[awm8604]

I think another peace prize is in order.

 

[Ingueferroque]

Lancet survey (March 2003 – July 2006): 601,027 (95% CI: 426,369–793,663)[38][39]

Why is this number so much greater than the rest?

 

[Lamel]

Yeah...it's pretty bad.

I'm going to be a horrible person for thinking this, but for some reason I thought of Call of Duty and how the U.S.'s K/D ratio is awesome.

 

[Eighty Deuce]

Ugh, two years of my life I will never get back. The hardest part of it all is hearing people who never set foot in Iraq criticize past efforts. Its easy to look back and point at mistakes, but when the fighting ongoing nobody had a real answer on what to do. I'm a bitter person over it, during 09-10 deployment we lost several guys to a suicide car bomb at a joint checkpoint. Killed 4 guys, what happened next? The entire situation was downplayed by the Obama administration (One of his top aids flew into our AO). Days later orders come in to shut down every joint checkpoint we had spent years building up. The war never went away, peace came after we paid off the insurgents. We had to turn around and pay the very men who tried to kill us at one point.

 

[Ollie Pooch]

The saddest thing about this is how they cynically used the grief and shock of 9/11 to manipulate so many people into supporting something that had nothing to do with it. They didn't and don't give a fuck about the hundreds of thousands of deaths since, or those lost on that day - the priority was this war. It's almost scary how easily it just happened and couldn't be stopped.

 

[hym]

It's a shame that american media has been (at least in my viewing) glossing over the iraqi death toll when talking about the cost of war. i mean, it's by far the biggest cost amongst everything.

It truly is but how macabre as it may sound I believe the price tag of the Iraq War is a far more efficient deterrent for future wars than the number of casualties.

And the worst part about those trillions spent isn't even the cost for the taxpayer and how it now limits government budgets that could have directly benefited the economy but that the money ended up with corporations that grew vast and powerful and would like nothing better than start yet another military campaign.

 

[commedieu]

The saddest thing about this is how they cynically used the grief and shock of 9/11 to manipulate so many people into supporting something that had nothing to do with it. They didn't and don't give a fuck about the hundreds of thousands of deaths since, or those lost on that day - the priority was this war. It's almost scary how easily it just happened and couldn't be stopped.

Slam dunk.

 

[params7]

The thing to worry about here is, all those 100,000+ dead civilians have families, kids, friends etc. There's probably not much you can do to convince them Americans are the good guys.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

600,000 is the number I've always been a told and it sounds like the most realistic.

 

[jaxword]

The thing to worry about here is, all those 100,000+ dead civilians have families, kids, friends etc. There's probably not much you can do to convince them Americans are the good guys.

We'll suffer blowback in 20 years when the next generation is raised on that hatred.

9/11 was a good example yet we didn't learn.

 

[Angry Fork]

Would also like to see a list of people tortured and those detained without trial. I know there were at least hundreds of people who spent years in lockdown without being charged, only to be let go because they were innocent.

 

[Joel Was Right]

Numbers have wildly varied from 150,000 to around 1 million. No WMD's have ever been found. No Bush administration officer has ever been prosecuted for the war or anything related to it.

The war politicised me, and I think an entire generation. For instance, I don't believe I would be able to support a war from my armchair unless I was willing to fight in it. If I believe in a cause that is worth lives, then I should be willing to give my life for it as well.

 

[Freezasaurus]

We'll suffer blowback in 20 years when the next generation is raised on that hatred.

9/11 was a good example yet we didn't learn.

Wait, wait, wait. I know you're not suggesting we let that shit slide.

 

[endresults]

History isn't going to look back too kindly on us.

 

[Ollie Pooch]

Wait, wait, wait. I know you're not suggesting we let that shit slide.

Well, they kind of did, given Iraq had nothing to do with it whatsoever.

 

[Freezasaurus]

Well, they kind of did, given Iraq had nothing to do with it whatsoever.

Well, that was misguided retaliation. Because, you know. Bush was an idiot.

 

[jaxword]

Wait, wait, wait. I know you're not suggesting we let that shit slide.

You misunderstood. I was not referring to the American response.

9/11 was orchestrated by someone who used anti-American sentiment that'd been building up from the 80s.

It's very hard to talk a dozen fairly young men into killing themselves and committing mass murder, but if they'd been bottle-fed religious propaganda and political hatred from birth, they're far more likely to listen.

 

[Ollie Pooch]

Well, that was misguided retaliation. Because, you know. Bush was an idiot.

I think it was far, far more calculated than that.

 

[Yagharek]

I know the Hussein dictatorship was an ugly thing with torture and executions going on, but do we have any figures on how many people he was killing each year on average?

How does that number compare to the toll of this illegal war?

To me it sounds like (with hindsight) a terrible situation where there was no choice between barbarity from within or barbarity from everyone else.

Terribly sad for the Iraqi people who should have the right to get on with a safe and normal life like everyone else.

 

[Joel Was Right]

The thing to worry about here is, all those 100,000+ dead civilians have families, kids, friends etc. There's probably not much you can do to convince them Americans are the good guys.

Despite the number of dead, and the now openly questionable circumstances that led to those deaths, it never ceases to amaze me how strong this narrative of "they hate our freedoms" remains even in discourse about the war today.

 

[Freezasaurus]

You misunderstood. I was not referring to the American response.

9/11 was orchestrated by someone who used anti-American sentiment that'd been building up from the 80s.

It's very hard to talk a dozen fairly young men into killing themselves and committing mass murder, but if they'd been bottle-fed religious propaganda and political hatred from birth, they're far more likely to listen.

I thought I might have read the initial post wrong. Yeah, children are definitely impressionable enough to the point that if you raise them on propaganda, you'll be able to convince them of pretty much anything. The thing is, it doesn't make them any less responsible for their actions. Regardless of how you're raised, you still have the capacity to think for yourself. If you decide to keep the blinders on, that's on you.

I think it was far, far more calculated than that.

Like what? Old vendettas?

 

[demosthenes]

The saddest thing about this is how they cynically used the grief and shock of 9/11 to manipulate so many people into supporting something that had nothing to do with it. They didn't and don't give a fuck about the hundreds of thousands of deaths since, or those lost on that day - the priority was this war. It's almost scary how easily it just happened and couldn't be stopped.

And when Ron Paul (I don't really like him besides a few good points he makes) brought up blowback in a presidential debate he was laughed at.

 

[Yagharek]

Despite the number of dead, and the now openly questionable circumstances that led to those deaths, it never ceases to amaze me how strong this narrative of "they hate our freedoms" remains even in discourse about the war today.

I think most of them would be jealous of a life where death from torture/IEDs/helicopter gunship/mortar/drone attacks wasn't a constant threat.

99% of Iraqis are victims of circumstances beyond their making.

 

[Joel Was Right]

I thought I might have read the initial post wrong. Yeah, children are definitely impressionable enough to the point that if you raise them on propaganda, you'll be able to convince them of pretty much anything. The thing is, it doesn't make them any less responsible for their actions. Regardless of how you're raised, you still have the capacity to think for yourself. If you decide to keep the blinders on, that's on you.



Like what? Old vendettas?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PNAC

Section V of Rebuilding America's Defenses, entitled "Creating Tomorrow's Dominant Force", includes the sentence: "Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalysing event––like a new Pearl Harbor"

Though not arguing that Bush administration PNAC members were complicit in those attacks, other social critics such as commentator Manuel Valenzuela and journalist Mark Danner, investigative journalist John Pilger, in New Statesman, and former editor of The San Francisco Chronicle Bernard Weiner, in CounterPunch, all argue that PNAC members used the events of 9/11 as the "Pearl Harbor" that they needed––that is, as an "opportunity" to "capitalize on" (in Pilger's words), in order to enact long-desired plans.​

Look at the list of signatures on it

Elliott Abrams Special Assistant to the President and Senior Director for Democracy, Human Rights, and International Operations (2001–2002), Special Assistant to the President and Senior Director for Near East and North African Affairs (2002–2005), Deputy Assistant to the President and Deputy National Security Advisor for Global Democracy Strategy (2005–2009) (all within the National Security Council)
Richard Armitage Deputy Secretary of State (2001–2005)
John R. Bolton Under-Secretary of State for Arms Control and International Security Affairs (2001–2005), U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations (2005–2006)
Dick Cheney Vice President (2001–2009)
Eliot A. Cohen Member of the Defense Policy Advisory Board (2007–2009)[60]
Seth Cropsey Director of the International Broadcasting Bureau (12/2002-12/2004)
Paula Dobriansky Under-Secretary of State for Global Affairs (2001–2007)
Francis Fukuyama Member of The President's Council on Bioethics (2001–2005)
Zalmay Khalilzad U.S. Ambassador to Afghanistan (11/2003 - 6/2005), U.S. Ambassador to Iraq (6/2005 - 3/2007) U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations (2007–2009)
I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby Chief of Staff to the Vice President of the United States (2001–2005)
Richard Perle Chairman of the Board, Defense Policy Board Advisory Committee (2001–2003)
Peter W. Rodman Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security (2001–2007)
Donald Rumsfeld Secretary of Defense (2001–2006)
Randy Scheunemann Member of the U.S. Committee on NATO, Project on Transitional Democracies, International Republican Institute
Paul Wolfowitz Deputy Secretary of Defense (2001–2005)
Dov S. Zakheim Department of Defense Comptroller (2001–2004)
Robert B. Zoellick

It was reported that just a week after 9/11 happened, PNAC sent a letter to the White House

...even if evidence does not link Iraq directly to the attack, any strategy aiming at the eradication of terrorism and its sponsors must include a determined effort to remove Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq. Failure to undertake such an effort will constitute an early and perhaps decisive surrender in the war on international terrorism.​

 

[Ollie Pooch]

Like what? Old vendettas?

By all accounts Iraq had nothing to do with it - surely there was another reason he chose to invade the country, while lying about their connection to 9/11 (when no doubt he knew full well there was none.)

I'm not speculating on the reason or suggesting some grand conspiracy theory, but surely the guy invading the country knew whether or not they were involved. Weren't the 9/11 hijackers Saudis? Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that he started a war that killed hundreds of thousands of people, on a completely fabricated story.

 

[BocoDragon]

I was yelling and screaming and marching in the run-up to the war (for all the "good" it did ), but ya can't blame me... I told everyone so.

 

[BankaiZaraki]

I love how the media only talks about American soldiers dying and how high that number is to some pundits. Sucks so many had to die for this.

 

[Dead Man]

Why is this number so much greater than the rest?

I don't know the details of which numbers come from which methodology, but some only count direct victims of violence, others include deaths from lack of water, lack of food etc.

I think most of them would be jealous of a life where death from torture/IEDs/helicopter gunship/mortar/drone attacks wasn't a constant threat.

99% of Iraqis are victims of circumstances beyond their making.

All the ones I work with that come to Australia are so jealous of the our freedoms they are willing to risk their life to get here, and then they just want to work and contribute to society when they do.

Hateful bastards. :/

 

[Freezasaurus]

I'm not speculating on the reason or suggesting some grand conspiracy theory, but surely the guy invading the country knew whether or not they were involved. Weren't the 9/11 hijackers Saudis? Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that he started a war that killed hundreds of thousands of people, on a completely fabricated story.

I think what was difficult in this case as opposed to previous wars is that there's no specific country to lash out at. And they were/are kind of clueless as to how to deal with an enemy like that. The enemy doesn't consist of all Saudis, or all Iranians or Iraqis or what have you. There's no centralized location to bomb the shit out of and go home.

 

[beast786]

One of my patient is from Iraq. Came to US after the Iraq war. I was just having conversation with him, as he was sad at the recent bombing (worst till now). he told me he was and is a big US supporter . But his biggest anger with US was not the invasion but mainly what happened afterward. he says the current regime is worst than saddam. Same tortures, kidnapping etc etc. But now because of power vacuum the whole country is unstable . he said the shape of country is much much much worse than under saddam.

 

[Ollie Pooch]

I think what was difficult in this case as opposed to previous wars is that there's no specific country to lash out at. And they were/are kind of clueless as to how to deal with an enemy like that. The enemy doesn't consist of all Saudis, or all Iranians or Iraqis or what have you. There's no centralized location to bomb the shit out of and go home.

Of course not, but given the evidence coming out after the fact of the whole reasons-for-inviading thing being made up, it's hard not to imagine there was some ulterior motive for invading that particular country.

And you don't start a war at that monstrous cost for some aimless lashing out at a 'faceless' enemy. That sounds absurd.

 

[speculawyer]

It's a good thing Cheney is too evil to lose sleep over it, and Bush too dumb.

That depressingly probably accurate.

 

[Dead Man]

One of my patient is from Iraq. Came to US after the Iraq war. I was just having conversation with him, as he was sad at the recent bombing (worst till now). he told me he was and is a big US supporter . But his biggest anger with US was not the invasion but mainly what happened afterward. he says the current regime is worst than saddam. Same tortures, kidnapping etc etc. But now because of power vacuum the whole country is unstable . he said the shape of country is much much much worse than under saddam.

Yeah, that's pretty much the message I get from asylum seekers I work with. Sunni and Shiite both think the country is a shambles now.

 

[Terra Firma]

I know the Hussein dictatorship was an ugly thing with torture and executions going on, but do we have any figures on how many people he was killing each year on average?

How does that number compare to the toll of this illegal war?

To me it sounds like (with hindsight) a terrible situation where there was no choice between barbarity from within or barbarity from everyone else.

Terribly sad for the Iraqi people who should have the right to get on with a safe and normal life like everyone else.

The last massacre by Saddam done in the early 90s in response to an uprising. The Shi'a were encouraged to revolt by the US and so they did, expecting American help, which never came. Saddam responded by killing thousands of Shi'a.

There hadn't been a massacre like that for a decade since then, though, and things were pretty benign (as far as ruthless dictatorships go). In fact, sanctions on Iraq and the resulting poverty took a more serious toll than Saddam and his family did with their abductions and torture.

 

[CrazyDude]

It's a good thing Cheney is too evil to lose sleep over it, and Bush too dumb.

The guy is too evil for evil.

 

[Kenshin001]

I love how the media only talks about American soldiers dying and how high that number is to some pundits. Sucks so many had to die for this.

Most of the Iraqi deaths are at the hands of other Iraqis.

 

[speculawyer]

Despite the number of dead, and the now openly questionable circumstances that led to those deaths, it never ceases to amaze me how strong this narrative of "they hate our freedoms" remains even in discourse about the war today.

No, that was a quote applied to Al-Qeada, not Iraq.

 

[BankaiZaraki]

Most of the Iraqi deaths are at the hands of other Iraqis.

Okay?

 

[speculawyer]

My Mea Culpa: I was not for the war . . . but I was neutral toward it. I didn't think it was good idea . . . but Saddam was an evil bastard.


I was wrong. I should have been against the war. It was a crude clumsy way to address a problem. If we really wanted to go after Saddam, there were other means. Continuing the sanctions. Funding an uprising in the south. Assassination. Funding internal rebel groups.

Or just left the situation alone to let them deal with it. Such a war was a costly bloody mess. It will never be worth price we paid in money and blood.


I feel bad for not opposing the war. I don't think anything I would have done would have prevented it but at least I would have a clear conscious.

 

[Dead Man]

My Mea Culpa: I was not for the war . . . but I was neutral toward it. I didn't think it was good idea . . . but Saddam was an evil bastard.


I was wrong. I should have been against the war. It was a crude clumsy way to address a problem. If we really wanted to go after Saddam, there were other means. Continuing the sanctions. Funding an uprising in the south. Assassination. Funding internal rebel groups.

Or just left the situation alone to let them deal with it. Such a war was a costly bloody mess. It will never be worth price we paid in money and blood.


I feel bad for not opposing the war. I don't think anything I would have done would have prevented it but at least I would have a clear conscious.

It's not your fault man. Saddam was an evil bastard. If that was the actual justification used, and it had been done with more long term planning I probably would have support a violent solution to removing him.

 

[Freezasaurus]

Of course not, but given the evidence coming out after the fact of the whole reasons-for-inviading thing being made up, it's hard not to imagine there was some ulterior motive for invading that particular country.

And you don't start a war at that monstrous cost for some aimless lashing out at a 'faceless' enemy. That sounds absurd.

Saddam Hussein seemed like the ultimate goal in that one. It was what his father tried to do but couldn't accomplish, so maybe that was it. He just shoehorned Iraq into the 9/11 retaliation equation instead of something more suitable.

 

[Hazmat]

I was going to post a "Mission Accomplished" picture, but the reality is too shitty to be glib about.

 

[Ollie Pooch]

Saddam Hussein seemed like the ultimate goal in that one. It was what his father tried to do but couldn't accomplish, so maybe that was it. He just shoehorned Iraq into the 9/11 retaliation equation instead of something more suitable.

That in itself is completely fucked up. But yeah, I somewhat agree.

 

[SneakyStephan]

100.000+ civilians, talk about mass murder.
What a world we live in.

 

[Joel Was Right]

No, that was a quote applied to Al-Qeada, not Iraq.

In reality, judging from debates on this during the past decade, it's a quote applied by many to anything Middle Eastern

 

[Freezasaurus]

100.000+ civilians, talk about mass murder.
What a world we live in.

Shit goes down whenever you station an armed military among civilians. I'm not saying it's acceptable, but what do people expect to happen?

 

[SneakyStephan]

Shit goes down whenever you station an armed military among civilians. I'm not saying it's acceptable, but what do people expect to happen?

Exactly, what did they expect to happen, and then they went along and started that war anyhow...

evil as can be.

21st century and equality and solidarity still don't cross borders. A brown person's life isn't worth shit in America. It's sad.