Just to note, that's for the cover only. From what I can see/note, both books have character art and ilustrations made by the original guy/crosbell guy/ and Erebonia guy?
Did they change the designer between Zero and Ao?
On a related note and for those interested in Kiseki stuff, I was able to get these two artbooks for 20 each one for a total of 47 including shippment from Japan in amazon. Granted, they are second handed (first-hand cost around 50 each) but they are in a perfect condition from what I can see.
The left one are for characters art and the right one are illustrations, for both Sky/Crosbell arcs. Pretty good stuff, though there are spoilers for the series.
I haven't seen one similar for Erebonia arc, I suppose after Sen III they will make one.
They are still second handed left from what I can see, so for people interested, they can get them at a cheap price.
Just finished Ao, and woooow, the last chapters were a roller coaster.
Jail break with Garcia, Zeit going full Divine Wolf, gathering back the party, fighting both Campanella and Arianrhod, the Aions, uncovering of Guy's murder, and then the huge twist with the Sept-Terrion and the way it spun around how the Zero prologue section went. Really sad seeing Pater-Mater going out too.
Probably just the standard post-finish high, but this is easily topping all the other games at the moment.
I'm liking this recent trend of posting Sen 3 related fanart every day as a themed countdown to the game's JP release. Every day there's a focus on a different character from multiple artists:
3rd actually makes Agate x Tita seem pretty plausible! Sorry for getting angry and assuming you guys were full of it. Even the other characters can see it! Honestly, age gap aside, it's true love.
...
YEAH RIGHT
I cannot believe people legitimately think this is a thing in 3rd. Not even going to mince words here; thinking that 3rd ships these 2 in anyway is outright reprehensible. I can't believe the fact that the game makes it explicitly clear that it's joking flew over people's heads. Jesus Christ.
3rd actually makes Agate x Tita seem pretty plausible! Sorry for getting angry and assuming you guys were full of it. Even the other characters can see it! Honestly, age gap aside, it's true love.
...
YEAH RIGHT
I cannot believe people legitimately think this is a thing in 3rd. Not even going to mince words here; thinking that 3rd ships these 2 in anyway is outright reprehensible. I can't believe the fact that the game makes it explicitly clear that it's joking flew over people's heads. Jesus Christ.
I guess I am simply too jaded by so many anime starting with "cute, jokey thing" actually turning into something serious in the end. The 3rd simply has too similar trajectory and uses too much of the same language that I can't help but be wary.
Like, "the age gap is what makes it so cute" is not usually a joke in the land of animated rising sun, man. It's a warning.
I guess I am simply too jaded by so many anime starting with "cute, jokey thing" actually turning into something serious in the end. The 3rd simply has too similar trajectory and uses too much of the same language that I can't help but be wary.
Like, "the age gap is what makes it so cute" is not usually a joke in the land of animated rising sun, man. It's a warning.
I emphatically disagree. 3rd is dead serious about not pushing it as a romantic thing, and the Sky trilogy is distinctly different from your usual anime, so it's highly doubtful they intended to go in that trajectory. Especially when said game is all to willing to point out how creepy that sort of thing would be.
And they don't even joke about it in the way that most anime do. In your typical anime, the older party blushes at the thought of being with a younger person (yuck), hinting at a mutual romantic love. Clearly not the case with Agate. Even in SC, when he's forced to go into a hot spring with Estelle and Tita, he's as cool as a cucumber.
Furthermore, the game is VERY tongue in cheek about Agate's relationship with Tita, which is something usual anime is completely devoid of. It's never framed as a "maybe, maybe not" scenario but rather, it's a bunch of characters relentlessly dogging on Agate because he's easy to rile up.
The game in general has many moments where characters engage in casual conversations. So a bunch of characters teasing a rough guy about his strangely intimate relationship with a young girl? Yeah no, it's pretty in line with the game's M.O.
I'm not discounting the possibility of it happening in CS3, but the idea that 3rd somehow pushes "Tita x Agate" is to be blunt, completely idiotic.
I emphatically disagree. 3rd is dead serious about not pushing it as a romantic thing, and the Sky trilogy is distinctly different from your usual anime, so it's highly doubtful they intended to go in that trajectory. Especially when said game is all to willing to point out how creepy that sort of thing would be.
It's not like these media actually bail from calling those acts creepy, you know. They do; they just continue to do it anyway. Oh, that grandpa commenting on his own granddaughter's breasts is creepy, but isn't he also charming? That 18 year old girl creeping on 13-and-14 year old girls makes everyone uncomfortable, but how fun she is! [Sky the 3rd]
Even that scene in your link plays Kevin as the angry, stick-in-the-mud one and Rufina as the eccentric, lovable one.
Boy, there are quite a few of these characters, aren't there? Doing those uncomfortable things again and again and again. And each time I give them the benefit of the doubt, that it's just meant to be comedic, that they don't actually endorse those sort of creepiness.
If you asked why Sky the 3rd seems to me like it's pushing Agate x Tita more, it's because this time it feels like a joke that has gone on too long. Suddenly everyone around them are pushing for it, in a jocular, teasing way, of course! Suddenly Agate gets a meet-the-parents moment - with a protective mother who acts like she's losing his daughter to a man - but it's all just cute comedy! Maybe this time I'm just fresh out of that benefit of the doubt. Maybe this time the implication is simply too serious for me to just brush it off in a "haha" way. It just leaves me wary.
Regardless, Agate and Tita becoming an item is not even my immediate concern. Like, we'd open that can of worms when it happens? My worry is after three years, they would still have that same one-sided-crush setup. That's already tiresome with Elise. And then we'd have the same old joke again and again and again...
Having Olivier and the Filthy Female Brigade starting shit with Agate over this works because the goal isn't that it's OK, but that it isn't.
You also have the fact that Tita's been woke up to the fact its puppy love but the misunderstanding remains, hence comedy.
Otherwise it's serious, and that makes it both disgusting to even have been written and banal given the times anime is in given its ubiquity *cough*Gwyn*cough*cough*
Still, the force of writing quality to pull this off (and something else later...) in this game is very commendable. Max Funny was there, and they found it.
It's not like these media actually bail from calling those acts creepy, you know. They do; they just continue to do it anyway. Oh, that grandpa commenting on his own granddaughter's breasts is creepy, but isn't he also charming? That 18 year old girl creeping on 13-and-14 year old girls makes everyone uncomfortable, but how fun she is! [Sky the 3rd]
Even that scene in your link plays Kevin as the angry, stick-in-the-mud one and Rufina as the eccentric, lovable one.
Boy, there are quite a few of these characters, aren't there? Doing those uncomfortable things again and again and again. And each time I give them the benefit of the doubt, that it's just meant to be comedic, that they don't actually endorse those sort of creepiness.
Except they usually do it in such a basic, immature and disingenuous way (ie: :lol you're into lolis!!!") that you could never possibly construe it as something they genuinely think is wrong. Example: Nah from Fire Emblem: Awakening outright calls her father a pedophile in the Japanese version because haha! I sincerely doubt the developers actually gave a shit about the ramifications of such a joke. 3rd is very, very unlike Awakening, so it's wrong (and unnecessary) to assume the developers are even remotely on the same track.
Also i'm not sure why you're bringing up Cold Steel... I mean fuck that grandpa and fuck that moment too, but i'm explicitly talking about 3rd here. Also no, no, no. I don't think the scene in my link is at all comparable to the moments you mentioned. There's a weight to that scene; it wonderfully manages to mix joy and melancholy together, and sets up their characters in a really great way. To downplay it and say that it's comparable to a bunch of lame gags is just ... completely wrong.
If you asked why Sky the 3rd seems to me like it's pushing Agate x Tita more, it's because this time it feels like a joke that has gone on too long. Suddenly everyone around them are pushing for it, in a jocular, teasing way, of course! Suddenly Agate gets a meet-the-parents moment - with a protective mother who acts like she's losing his daughter to a man - but it's all just cute comedy! Maybe this time I'm just fresh out of that benefit of the doubt. Maybe this time the implication is simply too serious for me to just brush it off in a "haha" way. It just leaves me wary.
You're taking a ginormous leap dude. Suddenly everyone = / = 3- 4 characters, one of which is fucking Olivier (a man with literally negative -100 maturity), Schera (a tease), Anelace (cute is justice) and Josette. And yeah, Agate gets the "meet-the-parents" moment, but it's pretty damn kosher overall (and understandable because, you know her parents showed up.) It is entirely cute comedy. The trilogy is loaded to the brim with repetitive, cute (and almost entirely good) comedy, but they never try to impart some hidden subtext. I mean you could legit make the argument that Olivier is a pedophile/deviant/etc based on dialogue alone, but that's obviously bullshit. Intent is important here, and they're not trying to push Agate's relationship with Tita as genuine romance.
Tita undeniably has strong connection to Agate; she's clearly crushing on him, but there's something clearly deeper, and the game never conveys the idea that "oh boy, they're actually perfect for each other." Especially on Agate's end, where his dialogue is fantastically written to convey the idea that he cares about Tita in a completely platonic manner (the fact that she's a surrogate for his sister should make this explicitly clear). Meanwhile, Tita's crush never gets to an overbearing level, so she's still able to have normal relationship with him / other characters. To conflate with the idea that they're pushing a romance is genuinely reprehensible to me. The Sky games are better than that shit.
Regardless, Agate and Tita becoming an item is not even my immediate concern. Like, we'd open that can of worms when it happens? My worry is after three years, they would still have that same one-sided-crush setup. That's already tiresome with Elise. And then we'd have the same old joke again and again and again...
Well i'm not particularly optimistic about the future on that front, tbh. I'm mostly referring to the here and now in regards to 3rd and how it portrayed Tita's relationship with Agate.
The claim "3rd ship teases Agate x Tita" will always, always be complete and utter nonsense.
Also i'm not sure why you're bringing up Cold Steel... I mean fuck that grandpa and fuck that moment too, but i'm explicitly talking about 3rd here. Also no, no, no. I don't think the scene in my link is at all comparable to the moments you mentioned. There's a weight to that scene; it wonderfully manages to mix joy and melancholy together, and sets up their characters in a really great way. To downplay it and say that it's comparable to a bunch of lame gags is just ... completely wrong.
You're right. I'm merely putting it there to demonstrate that just because a character in the game proclaim that it's creepy, that doesn't mean that the game itself ultimately portrays it as a negative thing.
Let me just make a disclaimer first that my intent is simply to describe my thought process that led to my worries rather than boldly claim that "obviously they're setting them up to be an item;" I'm not actually in that camp.
That said, I brought up Cold Steel simply because I played those before I played Sky the 3rd. It contains some elements I initially thought the Trails writers are above, and made me realize that it's not actually clear to me where their line is.
Logically, perhaps you're completely right. Perhaps, as SatelliteOfLove, they just skimmed the line and pulled it of with sheer writing quality. Heck, I've constantly expressed how much I value the quality of character interactions in Sky. The other moments when they don't, still, remain on the back of my mind and make me continuously second-guess.
There's quite a lot of stories that do that, yar? Have a positive message here, then completely undermine by doing other things there. Have a cute, heartfelt moment here, then suddenly it becomes ew. And they completely blindsided me too, you know - none of those "maybe they will...?" stuff. If you allow me to be dramatic, I just got disappointed too many times to not conclusion-jump based on familiarity and be perfectly unperturbed about where it is going - even if they are completely wholesome in a vacuum.
Well i'm not particularly optimistic about the future on that front, tbh. I'm mostly referring to the here and now in regards to 3rd and how it portrayed Tita's relationship with Agate.
The claim "3rd ship teases Agate x Tita" will always, always be complete and utter nonsense.
3rd actually makes Agate x Tita seem pretty plausible! Sorry for getting angry and assuming you guys were full of it. Even the other characters can see it! Honestly, age gap aside, it's true love.
...
YEAH RIGHT
I cannot believe people legitimately think this is a thing in 3rd. Not even going to mince words here; thinking that 3rd ships these 2 in anyway is outright reprehensible. I can't believe the fact that the game makes it explicitly clear that it's joking flew over people's heads. Jesus Christ.
What? No, it is absolutely a thing. I wish it weren't.
The characters are teasing agate for it specifically because it is a thing. They're cheerleading for it. They literally endorse it in the screens you posted and in the Japanese version (maybe this is in the English version, I don't know) they say it's an "age difference relationship."
I mean, I wish I could do the mental gymnastics you're doing on this page in order to pretend the game isn't making it a thing. It sounds like you don't understand a lot of the cues in Japanese media that are meant to convey that characters should be together. Like the male character being oblivious to it or denying it.
This type of writing is very much present in 3rd in regards to Rean and Elise. Rean is "oblivious" to some pseudo incestual relationship while Alfin exists to root it on. This is intentional.
Entire pages in this thread are dedicated to discussions of Rean's canon partner where no canonised partner exist, and when there is a canon relationship you write an essay to deny it. Impossible.
*Can feel this thread quickly falling into a rabbit hole from which there is no escape*
FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH, in the thread for the third, Hatsuu commented and said that she personally doesn't see it in a romantic way in the third. So at the very least, in the English version, they are in fact joking around, because that was the mindset used when localising it.
*Can feel this thread quickly falling into a rabbit hole from which there is no escape*
FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH, in the thread for the third, Hatsuu commented and said that she personally doesn't see it in a romantic way in the third. So at the very least, in the English version, they are in fact joking around, because that was the mindset used when localising it.
Right, it's pretty clear that they're either in fact joking or it was translated with that being the adopted take on the scene anyway.
Either way, I think it's pointless to get into "other things joke and then do it anyway!" since... 3rd jokes and then does not proceed to do it anyway.
So I've done a little digging, and found a fan translation of a drama cd that takes place after the third, featuring Agate and Tita, and other people irrelevant to the current conversation. There's a bit of teasing going on throughout like in the third, but I'd like to draw attention to this exchange towards the end. (Spoilered just in case, but there's really nothing of substance here)
Context: A bunch of characters (such as Agate) visited Tita and co. for stew, they're about to leave to go off and do various things.
Agate: (....I really don't want to do this, but there's no helping it.) Let's make a pinky promise.
Tita: Ehh!!
Agate: I heard from Dan that if I do this, you can send me off without worry.
Tita: Agate-san...
Agate: Come on, let's make a pinky promise.
Tita: Ah, okay! Ehehehe.
Agate & Tita: P-i-n-k-y P-r-o-m-i-s-e!
Estelle: Not fair! How come it's always Agate~
Agate: What's not fair!
Estelle: I want to make a pinky promise with Tita too!
Now this has the potential to be a super shippy scene if they wanted it to be, but they made sure that A) Agate was unwilling to do the pinky promise, and B) Estelle also wanted in. I admit this isn't the most solid of evidence, but a fanservicey drama cd seems like a great place to do something with this, yet they didn't really. It just seems to be Tita's puppy love for Agate, and Agate worrying about her worrying about him. If I shipped it, I'd be disappointed!
I dunno if I'm allowed to link to this, but it's called the "sora no kiseki advanced chapter" drama cd, if people want to have a look.
You're right. I'm merely putting it there to demonstrate that just because a character in the game proclaim that it's creepy, that doesn't mean that the game itself ultimately portrays it as a negative thing.
Let me just make a disclaimer first that my intent is simply to describe my thought process that led to my worries rather than boldly claim that "obviously they're setting them up to be an item;" I'm not actually in that camp.
That said, I brought up Cold Steel simply because I played those before I played Sky the 3rd. It contains some elements I initially thought the Trails writers are above, and made me realize that it's not actually clear to me where their line is.
Logically, from, perhaps you're completely right. Perhaps, as SatelliteOfLove, they just skimmed the line and pulled it of with sheer writing quality. Heck, I've constantly expressed how much I value the quality of character interactions in Sky. The other moments when they don't, still, remain on the back of my mind and make me continuously second-guess.
There's quite a lot of stories that do that, yar? Have a positive message here, then completely undermine by doing other things there. Have a cute, heartfelt moment here, then suddenly it becomes ew. And they completely blindsided me too, you know - none of those "maybe they will...?" stuff. If you allow me to be dramatic, I just got disappointed too many times to not conclusion-jump based on familiarity and be perfectly unperturbed about where it is going - even if they are completely wholesome in a vacuum.
Dude, i'm in the exact same boat haha. I've been disappointed by game series I've cared about constantly. I went into Persona 5 with an earnest belief they would move past garbage jokes from P3/P4 and they slapped me in the face. I've been fucked over by so much anime indulging in stupid bullshit I can't even count. But the thing is, that doesn't apply to 3rd. I just want to appreciate the game in its present state, because it's unbelievably considerate. You know how much I love the Cold Steel games, and I still do, but they're just not comparable to the Sky games in terms of writing quality. Unlike Sky, CS (and I suspect Zero) is willing to stoop to lower levels to appeal to the lowest common denominator. There's still a lot of good stuff, but you also have garbage like Elise, Alisa's grandpa, indulgent hot spring sections, Altina's design and boob jokes dragging the experience down. There's a been a shift in priorities, hence the reason why I'm not 100% convinced they'll land Agate/Tita in CS3. We'll see though!
What? No, it is absolutely a thing. I wish it weren't.
The characters are teasing agate for it specifically because it is a thing. They're cheerleading for it. They literally endorse it in the screens you posted and in the Japanese version (maybe this is in the English version, I don't know) they say it's an "age difference relationship."
Spare me the condescension. I've watched enough garbage anime to know exactly what you're talking about, and you're so blatantly off base here it's not even funny. They tease Agate because it's simply what the characters (and the game) likes to do. A lot of the conversations in this game feel like actual conversations people might have, hence the jokes. I mean for God's sakes, a grown man has a deep connection with a young girl that isn't related... that's very unusual, anyway you slice it, and you have the characters commenting on that while poking fun at Agate. If the game had written in a way where they were sincerely shipping the two (ie: having sensible characters say they're good together), maybe you'd have a leg to stand on, but it's so clear from the text that's it's not the case.
I mean, I wish I could do the mental gymnastics you're doing on this page in order to pretend the game isn't making it a thing. It sounds like you don't understand a lot of the cues in Japanese media that are meant to convey that characters should be together. Like the male character being oblivious to it or denying it.
This type of writing is very much present in 3rd in regards to Rean and Elise. Rean is "oblivious" to some pseudo incestual relationship while Alfin exists to root it on. This is intentional.
I'm not the one using a gag to justify buying into this idea that the developers are shipping a grown man with a fucking 13 year old. It's like, all of the character building from SC completely escaped you. Every nuanced aspect of their relationship went over your head. The fact that Agate is using Tita as a surrogate for his sister, the fact that one of his greatest confidants is a literal child, but he ends up relying on her anyway because she helped him get through some difficult stuff, the fact that she literally told him (to his face) that she loves him... all of it, woosh. And don't give me that crock example in Cold Steel. What a pathetic false equivalence. Do you really think Elise's crush on Rean is at all comparable to what Tita and Agate have? Even though characters (the sensible ones, not just the goofy onse) make jokes about Rean being with his sister? Hell,
his fucking adoptive parents want him to end up with Elise
, which isn't at all comparable to what's going in 3rd. The games are similar, but distinctively different in tone and writing quality. Comparing the 2 is completely pointless, and i'm genuinely baffled that you think it's the same situation. Tita loves Agate, but it's deeper and more nuanced than what Elise has with Rean. Agate deeply cares about her (and not in the romantic sense) and unlike Rean, he isn't oblivious to people making jokes about his relationship with Tita.
So I've done a little digging, and found a fan translation of a drama cd that takes place after the third, featuring Agate and Tita, and other people irrelevant to the current conversation. There's a bit of teasing going on throughout like in the third, but I'd like to draw attention to this exchange towards the end. (Spoilered just in case, but there's really nothing of substance here)
Context: A bunch of characters (such as Agate) visited Tita and co. for stew, they're about to leave to go off and do various things.
Agate: (....I really don't want to do this, but there's no helping it.) Let's make a pinky promise.
Tita: Ehh!!
Agate: I heard from Dan that if I do this, you can send me off without worry.
Tita: Agate-san...
Agate: Come on, let's make a pinky promise.
Tita: Ah, okay! Ehehehe.
Agate & Tita: P-i-n-k-y P-r-o-m-i-s-e!
Estelle: Not fair! How come it's always Agate~
Agate: What's not fair!
Estelle: I want to make a pinky promise with Tita too!
Now this has the potential to be a super shippy scene if they wanted it to be, but they made sure that A) Agate was unwilling to do the pinky promise, and B) Estelle also wanted in. I admit this isn't the most solid of evidence, but a fanservicey drama cd seems like a great place to do something with this, yet they didn't really. It just seems to be Tita's puppy love for Agate, and Agate worrying about her worrying about him. If I shipped it, I'd be disappointed!
I dunno if I'm allowed to link to this, but it's called the "sora no kiseki advanced chapter" drama cd, if people want to have a look.
Case in point. Even the drama CD, which are as basic as basic gets, avoids genuinely ship teasing the 2. There's also a moment with SC where Estelle / Agate / Tita / Renne divide up into 2 groups, and Tita is disappointed when she's stuck with Agate (because she wants to be with Estelle since she hasn't seen her in a while). A basic game would have simply made Tita blush over being alone with Agate. There are actual layers to this relationship.
*slams desk*
Come on Falcom, I believe in you. You've got two major characters, a lesbian and a pansexual male, who are both eager to get some action in Erebonia. You just need to make the cast a little gayer in the third CS game (not fussy how), and we can reach and possibly surpass previous levels of gay pretty easily.
I wonder if Anton comes to realize he's actually in love with Ricky.
Pervy gramps aside, the amount of brother-sister relationships is what I always find gross. Do writers fantasize about their own brothers and sisters so much?
I wonder if Anton comes to realize he's actually in love with Ricky.
Pervy gramps aside, the amount of brother-sister relationships is what I always find gross. Do writers fantasize about their own brothers and sisters so much?
It had the potential, but narrowly avoided it, primarily due to the very first scene of FC establishing how Joshua was brought into Estelle's life from outside her family. Thus they feel more like childhood friends rather than siblings, despite the adopted relationship, which makes their blossoming romance feel less creepy.
Still falls into the general pattern of "near incest" relationships that Japanese otaku media are so fond of, of course. It's simply about the least disturbing version of that in existence.
its about the only time I'm ok with it, and even then it still bothers me sometimes. Like Joshua calling cassius dad all the time. Showing them meeting as kids and that part of the relationship at least makes it a bit of childhood friends thing and I took it that way most of the time.
Elise in ToCS1 just feels like "...but they arent blood related!" cliche through and through. At least they dropped it for the second game and her character was much better off for it.
I'm not a fan of the brother and sister romance obsession in a lot of Japanese media (to put it mildly), but in Joshua and Estelle's case, it has a few key points that helps keep it as ok as possible.
They're both great characters independently, and have good chemistry.
This is overdone, but
they're not actually related by blood.
They met when Estelle was like, 10? So it's more like Estelle had a new friend move into her house, that she then became friends with.
The brother and sister aspect is presented as almost a misunderstanding, and until this is cleared up Estelle is legitimately confused about the situation emotionally.
And finally, Estelle is the main character, not Joshua. If Joshua was the main character, it would be a fantasy for the male otaku audience, but since it's Estelle, it's much easier to read it as being played for drama and stuff.
Is it still a little weird when you think about it? Yeah. But when you compare it to say, Rean and Elise, it's night and day, despite the similarities on the surface.
Dude, i'm in the exact same boat haha. I've been disappointed by game series I've cared about constantly. I went into Persona 5 with an earnest belief they would move past garbage jokes from P3/P4 and they slapped me in the face. I've been fucked over by so much anime indulging in stupid bullshit I can't even count. But the thing is, that doesn't apply to 3rd. I just want to appreciate the game in its present state, because it's unbelievably considerate. You know how much I love the Cold Steel games, and I still do, but they're just not comparable to the Sky games in terms of writing quality. Unlike Sky, CS (and I suspect Zero) is willing to stoop to lower levels to appeal to the lowest common denominator. There's still a lot of good stuff, but you also have garbage like Elise, Alisa's grandpa, indulgent hot spring sections, Altina's design and boob jokes dragging the experience down. There's a been a shift in priorities, hence the reason why I'm not 100% convinced they'll land Agate/Tita in CS3. We'll see though!
Spare me the condescension. I've watched enough garbage anime to know exactly what you're talking about, and you're so blatantly off base here it's not even funny. They tease Agate because it's simply what the characters (and the game) likes to do. A lot of the conversations in this game feel like actual conversations people might have, hence the jokes. I mean for God's sakes, a grown man has a deep connection with a young girl that isn't related... that's very unusual, anyway you slice it, and you have the characters commenting on that while poking fun at Agate. If the game had written in a way where they were sincerely shipping the two (ie: having sensible characters say they're good together), maybe you'd have a leg to stand on, but it's so clear from the text that's it's not the case.
I'm not the one using a gag to justify buying into this idea that the developers are shipping a grown man with a fucking 13 year old. It's like, all of the character building from SC completely escaped you. Every nuanced aspect of their relationship went over your head. The fact that Agate is using Tita as a surrogate for his sister, the fact that one of his greatest confidants is a literal child, but he ends up relying on her anyway because she helped him get through some difficult stuff, the fact that she literally told him (to his face) that she loves him... all of it, woosh. And don't give me that crock example in Cold Steel. What a pathetic false equivalence. Do you really think Elise's crush on Rean is at all comparable to what Tita and Agate have? Even though characters (the sensible ones, not just the goofy onse) make jokes about Rean being with his sister? Hell,
his fucking adoptive parents want him to end up with Elise
, which isn't at all comparable to what's going in 3rd. The games are similar, but distinctively different in tone and writing quality. Comparing the 2 is completely pointless, and i'm genuinely baffled that you think it's the same situation. Tita loves Agate, but it's deeper and more nuanced than what Elise has with Rean. Agate deeply cares about her (and not in the romantic sense) and unlike Rean, he isn't oblivious to people making jokes about his relationship with Tita.
Case in point. Even the drama CD, which are as basic as basic gets, avoids genuinely ship teasing the 2. There's also a moment with SC where Estelle / Agate / Tita / Renne divide up into 2 groups, and Tita is disappointed when she's stuck with Agate (because she wants to be with Estelle since she hasn't seen her in a while). A basic game would have simply made Tita blush over being alone with Agate. There are actual layers to this relationship.
3rd is the gayest Kiseki game, and that's taking the fact that CS has a literal lesbian in it into account.
I would love to be persuaded by you, but I can't. And no, it didn't escape me that Tita is written as a surrogate sister for Agate. That doesn't change anything.
A quick google search, and it's apparent that "age difference relationship" was actually "age difference couple." Unfortunately, because of the nature of 3rd, I don't know how to quickly look up the scene in question. Up until this scene, I grew highly suspicious of the way the characters were being presented because they fit certain cues that signify a romantic relationship, but I could more or less write it off because the game didn't make it explicit and I was more than happy to believe that "surrogate sister" was all that it consisted of. But if a game is literally calling them a "couple," I can't help but feel that a certain line has been crossed. That can't be put back in the box, even when the characters suggest to poke fun at Agate.
Its similarity to Sen lies in how it attempts to appeal to a certain audience.
1. The male character is either oblivious to or resistant to the idea of it. This absolves that character of any complicated feelings (or guilt), while still suggesting the relationship to this audience.
2. Other characters cheerlead the idea of the relationship. This serves the purpose of normalizing the idea of the relationship to that specific audience.
I agree that the Sen games are tonally in a different place, though. At least this time the characters appear to be wearing clothes. Hopefully Sen III moves away from attempting to cater to the above audience and the industry as a whole.
I'm liking this recent trend of posting Sen 3 related fanart every day as a themed countdown to the game's JP release. Every day there's a focus on a different character from multiple artists
The Estelle/Joshua flashback in 3rd kind of cements that relationship for me.
Joshua was always an outsider in that family, and he always had that dynamic of being pushed/pulled to be warmer and better by Estelle from the moment they met. It works.
On the other hand, the framing around Agate/Tita is gross to me, whatever the intention. Ditto for Rean/Elise, which is sort of just dropped on the plot and makes little sense. I also still hate some of Olivert's "jokes" in FC—and how Estelle reacts to them. Also, the jokes about Dorothee's slash fiction get old.
A lot of these things seem pretty well baked into Japanese sexual politics/culture, and as strong a cultural relativist as I am, these things are why parts of Persona 4 were cringey for me, too (principally the treatment of Kanji and Naoto).
I would love to be persuaded by you, but I can't. And no, it didn't escape me that Tita is written as a surrogate sister for Agate. That doesn't change anything.
A quick google search, and it's apparent that "age difference relationship" was actually "age difference couple." Unfortunately, because of the nature of 3rd, I don't know how to quickly look up the scene in question. Up until this scene, I grew highly suspicious of the way the characters were being presented because they fit certain cues that signify a romantic relationship, but I could more or less write it off because the game didn't make it explicit and I was more than happy to believe that "surrogate sister" was all that it consisted of. But if a game is literally calling them a "couple," I can't help but feel that a certain line has been crossed. That can't be put back in the box, even when the characters suggest to poke fun at Agate.
You didn't need to make that google search because Josette expresses that sentiment in the English version ("couples come in all shapes and sizes"), so it's not like you made some major discovery that changed the pace of the argument. She makes a smart-ass crack about a relationship between Agate and Tita possibly working, as a follow up to Olivier dumb ass allegation (and the fact a grown man has a close bond with a child). That's not at all comparable to the game calling them a couple. Are you actually being real with me right now? Are you seriously suggesting a sentiment expressed in a gag moment is proper evidence of a possible relationship between these two? Really? Okay then, following your logic Anelace is a closet lesbian, Olivier is a pedophile/rapist and Kloe is the most perfect person ever. I mean, these are (wrong) observations made by characters, so the developers must share these values, right?
And I don't care if you weren't convinced by my argument. If you want to buy into the game shipping these 2, that's your prerogative, but don't act like it's the gospel, especially when Agate has 0 (zero) instances of reciprocating it, and Tita's relationship with Agate is more than just "having a dumb crush."
Its similarity to Sen lies in how it attempts to appeal to a certain audience.
1. The male character is either oblivious to or resistant to the idea of it. This absolves that character of any complicated feelings (or guilt), while still suggesting the relationship to this audience.
2. Other characters cheerlead the idea of the relationship. This serves the purpose of normalizing the idea of the relationship to that specific audience.
I agree that the Sen games are tonally in a different place, though.
1. Agate isn't oblivious, and his resistance to people implying that he's in relationship with Tita is completely natural, and not at all comparable to your standard anime denial (he doesn't blush or make a big show about it, he's just annoyed that people are implying he's a literal pedophile).
2. Way to ignore the context. The characters who cheerlead it are teasing him or Olivier. It's not comparable to say CS, where various characters endorse a relationship between Rean and his sister.
SC make it explicitly clear that their relationship is platonic. I want actual receipts on the game "hinting at" a potential romantic relationship, because I recently played through SC and encountered nothing of the sort. 3rd pokes fun at the idea that, but it very much follows up on the relationship set up in SC, and leaves it at that. Also nice try, but 3rd as a game barely panders to the player, so it's not really similar to CS in that regard at all.
The only one normalizing a potential relationship between the two of them are the people using illogical arguments and garbage false equivalences in order to prove their point.
I've done it
It took me till 7 in the morning, but I've finally beaten Ao No Kiseki and thus caught up with this series.
My thoughts and more later when I'm more awake. Onto NG+ Nightmare run.
Bring on Cold Steel 3
I've done it
It took me till 7 in the morning, but I've finally beaten Ao No Kiseki and thus caught up with this series.
My thoughts and more later when I'm more awake. Onto NG+ Nightmare run.
Bring on Cold Steel 3
Yea, the guide showed I was almost done, but the final boss was being annoying and wouldn't die fast enough.
Luckily I had the max 3000 pts thanks to zero transfer bonus, so maximum transfer run time
Time to make past bosses my bitch, oh how I love RPG revenge runs.
I've done it
It took me till 7 in the morning, but I've finally beaten Ao No Kiseki and thus caught up with this series.
My thoughts and more later when I'm more awake. Onto NG+ Nightmare run.
Bring on Cold Steel 3
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