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[skrew]

just got this emailed to me by a buddy of mine

http://www.military.com/Opinions/0,14790,Edwards_122104-P3,00.html

They could have thrown their hands up in the air, like the reservists from the Army's 343rd Quartermaster Company, who recently refused a mission to deliver fuel because their trucks were not properly armored. The members of the 656th Transportation Company could have refused the mission for lack of proper equipment, and they probably would have gotten away with it.

But they didn't refuse. They didn't balk. They did what they had been trained to do. They figured out a way to take up the slack. They found several Army trucks abandoned in the Kuwaiti desert. They pressed some of the trucks into service, and cannibalized one or two for parts.

They didn't sell the trucks. They didn't misuse the trucks for personal amusement, or leverage them for personal profit. They used the abandoned trucks to deliver fuel to front line troops. The 656th delivered more than 26 million gallons of fuel, driving more than 1.6 million miles and over 1,000 missions through the desert. They took up the slack. They got the job done.

The Army didn't court-martial anyone from the 343rd, for refusing to follow orders. As far as I can tell, no one from the 343rd got anything worse than reduction in pay, extra duty, and a slap on the wrist. They refused their orders (illegal on the best of days, and punishable by death in war time). They didn't fail valiantly, while attempting to accomplish their mission. They folded their cards, because the mission was too difficult and too dangerous, and because they weren't properly equipped.



I'm trying to imagine where this nation would be if the soldiers at Valley Forge had thrown in the towel because they were improperly outfitted. The winter of 1777-1778 was ruthless. Bootless Soldiers wrapped their feet in rags when they could find some, and often not even that. Nearly every witness recounted stories of bloody footprints in the snow. On seeing the pitiful state of our Soldiers, New York's Gouverneur Morris of the Continental Congress wrote, "An army of skeletons appeared before our eyes naked, starved, sick and discouraged." Marquis de Lafayette wrote in great detail about arms and legs blackened with frostbite, and amputations conducted under conditions that would have turned Torquemada's stomach.

Our Soldiers at Valley Forge weren't just improperly outfitted. They were starving. They were freezing. They were disheartened. They were dying. But they held the line. They took up the slack, and they accomplished the mission. It was their job. That's what Soldiers do.

I'm more than a little confused by the Army's recent decisions. Members of the 343rd Quartermaster Company refused a lawful order in a war zone. They violated a major article of the Uniform Code of Military Justice - one that can bring the death penalty in time of war - and they got slapped on the wrist. By comparison, the 656th Transportation Company violated a much less significant article. They didn't do it to ensure their personal safety, or because the job was too dangerous or difficult. They did it to accomplish the mission. They did it because the fuel they carried was vital to the safety and success of American Soldiers on the battle line. The Army threw the book at them. I don't know about you, but I think the Army got it backwards.

The men and women of the 656th Transportation Company may have suffered the Army's punishment, but - for what it's worth - they've earned the salute of one crusty old Navy Chief. They got the job done. They took up the slack. And in my book, that makes them heroes.

 

[Wendo]

That Valley Forge comparison is bullshit. George sent the boys over to Iraq without the shit they needed, when we have the resources to actually give it to them.

I sure as hell wouldn't join the army just for crap like that. Why throw away your life for some bullshit reason like driving around in unarmored Humvees that have no place in a war zone?

 

[doncale]

the Pentagon can go fuck itself. i would never join a military that basicly fucks its lower ranking soilders in the ass. Vietnam,. Gulf War, Gulf War II. fuckem

 

[Nerevar]

I'm trying to imagine where this nation would be if the soldiers at Valley Forge had thrown in the towel because they were improperly outfitted.

Is this guy on crack? How can he even remotely compare defending your country, on your own territory, from a major foreign power to a fuel-running mission in a foreign country where the legitimacy of our presence is ambiguous, at best?

Oh right, it's the military, where you're expected to do whatever that commander in his air-conditioned base miles away from action tells you to do, regardless of whether it puts you in unreasonable danger or not.

Christ I fucking hate the military brass. Biggest bunch of hypocrites in the world.

 

[Shinobi]

Amen to the last three posts...fuck the military brass and anyone who thinks like them.

 

[Drensch]

You go with the military you have, not the one you want.

 

[Shinobi]

Thankfully they're not mine, so fuck 'em anyway.

 

[Cimarron]

Those Navy boys crack me up...

First off Valley Forge was a an honorable cause. Bagdad ain't.

But with that said the commander of that battalion should have been punished severely. It was his men who decided to disobey. But the way the military works the brass get a firm finger wagging and the enlisted get the boot shoved up there ass. Also some of you folks do have to realize that it is within your rights as a soldier to refuse an order that is unreasonable.
But Ground Pounders have a a bit of a different philosophy on that sort of thingthan us Airmen. :^/

 

[skrew]

Also some of you folks do have to realize that it is within your rights as a soldier to refuse an order that is unreasonable.

no, u can refuse an order that is illegal. u cant refuse an order that you think is unreasonable. by all accounts 656th did what they had to do to get the mission done and for that they got punished, while 343rd refused a legal order and got slapped in the wrist. whatever happened to "i will always place the mission first"

 

[teiresias]

no, u can refuse an order that is illegal. u cant refuse an order that you think is unreasonable. by all accounts 656th did what they had to do to get the mission done

So if a part of the army had decided it wasn't prepared enough for a "humanitarian" taking of Baghdad and they just dropped a nuke to get it over with they were just doing "what they had to do to get the mission done" and nothing should be done to them?

Don't come crying now because the military gives you no out when the orders and the circumstances are completely screwed up. If they order you into battle wearing just boxers and a t-shirt and a slingshot you better go in and do it, but you also better not do anything illegal to better prepare yourself - your boxers and your t-shirt are all you get.

 

[DarienA]

Those Navy boys crack me up...

First off Valley Forge was a an honorable cause. Bagdad ain't.

But with that said the commander of that battalion should have been punished severely. It was his men who decided to disobey. But the way the military works the brass get a firm finger wagging and the enlisted get the boot shoved up there ass. Also some of you folks do have to realize that it is within your rights as a soldier to refuse an order that is unreasonable.
But Ground Pounders have a a bit of a different philosophy on that sort of thingthan us Airmen. :^/

Ummm WTF are you talking about? These folks didn't disobey and order you numbnut did you read the whole article?

Having spent my time in the service besides the Valley Forge crack this writer is DEAD FUCKIN ON Officers don't want to here that you can't get something done... they gave you an order/mission, etc... and it needs to be done period. As the writer says no mission/order is given in a vacuum... failure can have a domino effect to untold levels.

This is sad, disgusting, and unfortunately not very surprising... however unless this case gets national press time the army won't review/reverse those decisions.

I'm sorry but this time I have to pull the elitist route... 99% of you have spent zippo time in military service, and don't know how things work. There are certain topics you really shouldn't talk about if you know nothing about it... this is one of em.

Don't come crying now because the military gives you no out when the orders and the circumstances are completely screwed up. If they order you into battle wearing just boxers and a t-shirt and a slingshot you better go in and do it, but you also better not do anything illegal to better prepare yourself - your boxers and your t-shirt are all you get.

That's not exactly true... and an example is given right in the article... fellas paid out of their own pocket to get something down in prep for their ship.

The article explains it better... folks up the chain of command want things done now, but if it's something that you really can't do with the available resources... they STILL want it done, they just don't want to know the details of how it got done.

 

[Cimarron]

^^^

Sorry Merriam Webster you are correct. Illegal is the correct term.

"i will always place the mission first"

What happened to this is too much reliance on week end warrior troops. Does this Military actually think a reduction in pay and grade is going to phase a guardsmen/reservist if they they only only expect to have a a 180 day trip to the sandbox? Its laughable. I'm a reservist and I do my job. BUT other than a bullet to the head, jail time, and maybe a dishonorable discharge there is very little in the way of punishments that the ARC can dish out that would frighten me. Paperwork is not teh scary if you only expect to be around for a a couple of weekends per year.

 

[skrew]

no shit genius, thats exactly the point, those reseverists who refused the mission should be the ones going to jail, not the company who did their mission without enough support

btw refusing to follow a legal order is punishable by death in wartime

 

[Cimarron]

"Ummm WTF are you talking about? These folks didn't disobey and order you numbnut did you read the whole article?"

Ummm wtf are YOU talking about?

"The Army didn't court-martial anyone from the 343rd, for refusing to follow orders."


"I'm sorry but this time I have to pull the elitist route... 99% of you have spent zippo time in military service,"



:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

I'm currently in the Air Force Reserves junior. Perhaps you should STFU since you're already out.

And Skrew.... no one said that those reservists should not be in jail dumbass. I said that the whole battalion should be punished. The troops for not obeying an order AND the commander for not excersising proper control of his men. Learn to friggin read.

 

[skrew]

And Skrew.... no one said that those reservists should not be in jail dumbass. I said that the whole battalion should be punished. The troops for not obeying an order AND the commander for not excersising proper control of his men. Learn to friggin read.

go read the article again, its clearly about 656th's commander and soilders getting jailed for doing their mission, with the 343rd being thrown in to make a point

edit: not called for, no need to promote inter service rivalry

 

[Pimpwerx]

War is stupid. The military is stupid. Put them together and you've got idiots telling more idiots to do some really idiotic stuff. But hey, it's an order, join the lemming army. :rollaids: PEACE.

 

[DarienA]

"Ummm WTF are you talking about? These folks didn't disobey and order you numbnut did you read the whole article?"

Ummm wtf are YOU talking about?

"The Army didn't court-martial anyone from the 343rd, for refusing to follow orders."


"I'm sorry but this time I have to pull the elitist route... 99% of you have spent zippo time in military service,"



:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

I'm currently in the Air Force Reserves junior. Perhaps you should STFU since you're already out.

The article was about the 656th, though it briefly referenced the 343rd... I thought your comment was directed to the 656th....the FOCUS of the article, when you were referrencing the 343rd... clarify your post dammit.

Apparently the same confusion that Skrew is showing you.

 

[Cimarron]

"

The article was about the 656th, though it briefly referenced the 343rd... I thought your comment was directed to the 656th....the FOCUS of the article, when you were referrencing the 343rd... clarify your post dammit.

Apparently the same confusion that Skrew is showing you.""

Perhaps my point was a bit muddy....
Please accept this Easter bun as a peace offering. It goes great with cheese.

 

[DarienA]

"

The article was about the 656th, though it briefly referenced the 343rd... I thought your comment was directed to the 656th....the FOCUS of the article, when you were referrencing the 343rd... clarify your post dammit.

Apparently the same confusion that Skrew is showing you.""

Perhaps my point was a bit muddy....
Please accept this Easter bun as a peace offering. It goes great with cheese.

:lol :lol :lol :lol

 

[Caddle]

This is funny coming from the Navy of all people. Compared to the Army and Marines the Navy haven't lost any significant amount of people in any recent campaign. I don't think they should be the one to judge how the reservist from the 343 felt in doing they mission. The only reason the Army made a big deal of the other units who accomplished the mission without the proper equipment is because of the complaint from the 343th about not being properly equipped.

 

[skrew]

This is funny coming from the Navy of all people. Compared to the Army and Marines the Navy haven't lost any significant amount of people in any recent campaign. I don't think they should be the one to judge how the reservist from the 343 felt in doing they mission.

This is funny coming from a civilian of all people. Not a single one has been drafted to the service. I don't think they should be the one to judge a senior non-comissioned officer who spent a lifetime in the service on a sub at the height of the cold war. This isn't coming from the Navy but every veterans organization out there, and also some senators.

The only reason the Army made a big deal of the other units who accomplished the mission without the proper equipment is because of the complaint from the 343th about not being properly equipped.

umm... i'm a little lost? you are trying to say that bacause the 343rd refused to do their mission, the army court marshalled soilders from the 656th, who completed their mission?

 

[maharg]

It seems strange to me that an all-volunteer army is treated as if its members are constantly looking for a way out. They chose to put their lives on the line, so why aren't they given the respect to be able to say that they don't agree with their orders on moral grounds?

 

[Phoenix]

You go with the military you have, not the one you want.

I always laugh when I hear them say that because you can WAIT to get the military you want and have everything you need.