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[Piecake]

ROME — Pope Francis has never been one to mince words, even when he doesn’t say anything at all. And it certainly doesn’t take much reading between the lines of his choice of new cardinals, who will receive their red hats next month, to see that he is stacking the deck to ensure his eventual replacement thinks just like he does.

Among the new eminences, five unarguably are from the geographical margins, where Francis believes the church can do the most good. They are from Bangladesh, the Central African Republic, Lesotho, Malaysia, and Papua New Guinea—all countries that have never had a cardinal representative and whose Catholic experience is far different from most—and who will change drastically the demographics of the next conclave. Francis also chose men from Mauritius, Brazil, and Venezuela.

Francis’s American choices all tend to be anti-Republican, pro-immigration prelates, including archbishop of Indianapolis Joseph William Tobin, who famously butted heads with Republican vice-presidential candidate and Indiana Governor Mike Pence on a measure to ban Syrian refugees from his state. Blase Cupich, the archbishop of Chicago, who hails from Nebraska, also made headlines at last year’s Synod on the Family for essentially siding with LGBT and divorced and remarried Catholics.

“In one fell swoop, therefore, Francis has reshaped the character of the most senior level of the American hierarchy,” Vatican expert John Allen says of the American choices. “The outlook, while certainly defending church teaching on matters such as abortion and euthanasia, is more inclined to see them as part of a spectrum that also includes immigration, the death penalty, the environment, concern for the poor, and so on.”

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...ve-cardinals-who-will-pick-the-next-pope.html

 

[Slayven]

Don't believe it

 

[Beartruck]

The church as it was before Francis became Pope was destined for the dustheap of history. I believe he knows that it has to update for the modern era, and he's getting it there, bit by bit.

 

[Piecake]

Don't believe it

Don't believe what?

It seems pretty clear that Pope Francis is promoting people that hold similar values and ideals to him. If he promotes enough people like that, then it is pretty damn likely that we will get a similar Pope to Francis instead of a far more conservative and socially conservative one.

Would actual progressives call the Pope and these cardinals progressives? Probably not, but I think they are progressives in terms of the Catholic Church.

 

[Slayven]

Don't believe what?

It seems pretty clear that Pope Francis is promoting people that hold similar values and ideals to him. If he promotes enough people like that, then it is pretty damn likely that we will get a similar Pope to Francis instead of a far more conservative and socially conservative one.

Would actual progressives call the Pope and these cardinals progressives? Probably not, but I think they are progressives in terms of the Catholic Church.

He is cool pope for 5 minutes before going back to saying the same fucked up shit they are known for.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/02/world/pope-transgender-comments/

What measure of progressive is this?

On a return flight to Rome at the end of a three-day trip to Georgia and Azerbaijan, the Pope recounted a meeting with a French father whose young son wanted to be a girl after reading about it in a textbook.

"This is against nature," he said. "It is one thing when someone has this tendency ... and it is another matter to teach this in school."
"To change the mentality -- I call this ideological colonization," the Pope said.
The Pope said he still spends time with transgender people, leading them closer to God.
In August, the Pope called the teaching of gender identity theory "terrible."
"Today, in schools they are teaching this to children -- to children! -- that everyone can choose their gender," Pope Francis said.

 

[BigDug13]

He is cool pope for 5 minutes before going back to saying the same fucked up shit they are known for.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/02/world/pope-transgender-comments/

What measure of progressive is this?

Baby steps man. You're not going to go from what we had before Francis to suddenly Catholics being cool with transgender this fast. And I knew this would be immediately brought up in order to completely discredit every single progressive move they've made over the past few years.

 

[Vanillalite]

He is cool pope for 5 minutes before going back to saying the same fucked up shit they are known for.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/02/world/pope-transgender-comments/

What measure of progressive is this?

Not seeing the forest through the trees?

Thinking the church waa just gonna do a 180 over night?

Thinking that because Pope Francis still does X conservative thing (which he does) somehow invalidates the fact that this is a big move that will have consequences for years to come?

 

[Piecake]

He is cool pope for 5 minutes before going back to saying the same fucked up shit they are known for.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/02/world/pope-transgender-comments/

What measure of progressive is this?

Like I said, I look at it in terms of the Catholic Church. Pope Francis is a lot better than all of the previous ones and has appointed American Cardinals that are obviously democrats.

Is it perfect and in line what I believe? Of course not, but it is an organization constricted by certain beliefs and faiths as well as constrained by it being run by a bunch of old men. I honestly never expected it to be. We get empathy for the poor and sinners with less focus on abortion and other crap with Francis and in 40 years we might see the church come around to transgender rights if the Church remains dominated by Catholic church 'progressives' instead of hellfire and brimstone social conservatives.

 

[Slayven]

It's cool LGBT the catholic church will see you as human in 40 years, 60 tops.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

He is cool pope for 5 minutes before going back to saying the same fucked up shit they are known for.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/02/world/pope-transgender-comments/

What measure of progressive is this?

Dude, the Catholic church is not going to change overnight.

 

[Cartman86]

Dude, the Catholic church is not going to change overnight.

No one should credit the tiniest of possible changes years too late. They are still anti-abortion, contraception, LGTBQ and presumably something else we aren't even aware of yet. Yet due to secular morality we will be forced to adapt to that new frontier of morality. That's the benefit of such a system. With the help of everyone all of us can improve. The same cannot be said for the incredibly slow external morals of the Catholic Church and essentially every religion.

 

[KO Traveling Hobo]

It's cool LGBT the catholic church will see you as human in 40 years, 60 tops.

Would you rather they never do?

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

.

 

[Piecake]

It's cool LGBT the catholic church will see you as human in 40 years, 60 tops.

I hate this sort of thinking. Yes, the Catholic Church continues to believe some shitty things, but they have made a lot of progressive since Pope Francis became Pope, and Pope Francis wants to continue that progress by appointing cardinals that think like him.

It is completely unrealistic to think that such a conservative organization could be completely overturned by Francis, and that Pope Francis, who was appointed by that extremely conservative organization would hold actual progressive views on all issues.

Not recognizing the progress and not mentioning the good that nominating these sorts of Cardinals do while only focus on the shitty things that the Catholic Church believes like it invalidates everything that the Catholic Church has done to change is just so stupid and unrealistic.

Like people have said, the church was not about to do a complete 180 on everything. I think it is totally fair to mention the positions that the Pope and the church has that are repugnant, but only focusing on that while disregarding the change makes it seem like all that change was pointless, which I think is ridiculous.

 

[Jarmel]

.

Actually looking forward to this. Trailers were good.

 

[Slayven]

Would you rather they never do?

yeah because that is the only other option

I hate this sort of thinking. Yes, the Catholic Church continues to believe some shitty things, but they have made a lot of progressive since Pope Francis became Pope, and Pope Francis wants to continue that progress by appointing cardinals that think like him.

It is completely unrealistic to think that such a conservative organization could be completely overturned by Francis, and that Pope Francis, who was appointed by that extremely conservative organization would hold actual progressive views on all issues.

Not recognizing the progress and not mentioning the good that nominating these sorts of Cardinals do while only focus on the shitty things that the Catholic Church believes like it invalidates everything that the Catholic Church has done to change is just so stupid and unrealistic.

Like people have said, the church was not about to do a complete 180 on everything. I think it is totally fair to mention the positions that the Pope and the church has that are repugnant, but only focusing on that while disregarding the change makes it seem like all that change was pointless, which I think is ridiculous.

I don't believe in giving brownie points for thinking maybe possible in the future one day they will be decent people, god willing and the creek don't rise. Especially after all the shit they done.

 

[NexusCell]

It's cool LGBT the catholic church will see you as human in 40 years, 60 tops.

The Church has existed for nearly 2000 years. Reversing a major doctrine laid out since its inception in just 40 years is pretty good considering how old of an institution we're talking about. The Counter-Reformation itself took nearly 100 years to fully take hold in response to the Protestant Reformation.

While I would prefer it be instant, that isn't realistically happening.

 

[KO Traveling Hobo]

yeah because that is the only other option

Is there any precedent for an organization going from "ass-backwards bigots who shield child molesters" to "morally respectable progressives" over night? Or even over a few years?

 

[Vanillalite]

yeah because that is the only other option


I don't believe in giving brownie points for thinking maybe possible in the future one day they will be decent people, god willing and the creek don't rise. Especially after all the shit they done.

Who says it's brownie points?

It's not about brownie points. The church isn't being graded.

The fact is no matter people's opinion on the church or this pope these are the Cardinals that have been nominated and this will have lasting repercussions on how things are handled for years to come because of this.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

I don't believe in giving brownie points for thinking maybe possible in the future one day they will be decent people, god willing and the creek don't rise. Especially after all the shit they done.

Do you know a lot of the churches history or how many people- even today have conservative and ill values towards contraptions, abortion and gays based on what the clergy and the religion says?

I don't understand the argument that because this Pope is deeply wrong on some things, that it should not be applauded for the direction he has taken things into. I find it nearly impossible to look at the entire churches history and not be seriously impressed at the tonal shift in character that has happened over one pope, following over a thousand years of evil misconduct as the worlds most oppressive and powerful institution.
If you only look at things as they are today- in 2016, you ignore the entire context and history of how things came to the point of where they are and why they are. This is the difference between being an uneducated individual who chalks up an opinion on events with a narrow field of view and base an opinion on that alone- or someone who puts the historic context into context and tries to look at things through a lens of what was believed, thought and felt at the time of which it was started.
If things go in the right direction you should celebrate that. You never get all the things- and at some point one has to combine ones idealism with a level of pragmatism. You can look at this pope and applaud the good and revolutionary forward thinking process he has done, while still not be so fucking pessimistic to yard towards a shoot-first style strategy before the new pope has even been selected.

 

[Dr.Acula]

Remember, in 2008 Obama was anti gay marriage.

 

[SolicitorPirate]

Super curious on who the Malaysian Cardinal will be. Chances are good I've probably met him at some point

 

[WedgeX]

Good. The less conservative Italian Cardinals the better.

 

[Air]

Good move. I can understand the skepticism, but basically what he's doing is making sure that theres less likely of a chance of regressing in their policies. It's a smart move and I think it shows that he really wants real change for the church.

 

[Piecake]

yeah because that is the only other option


I don't believe in giving brownie points for thinking maybe possible in the future one day they will be decent people, god willing and the creek don't rise. Especially after all the shit they done.

The changes in the attitudes, beliefs, and priorities of the Catholic Church aren't just meaningless brownie points. Those changes are real, substantial and have a real impact on beliefs and attitudes of Catholics and future Catholics throughout the world.

If you don't think that is a good thing and sets a solid foundation for future progress then I don't know what to tell you. It is pretty clear to me though that you disregard people and organizations that don't measure up to your moral standards. I personally think that we should recognize and encourage people and organizations that are trying to change for the better, even if they haven't met yours or my moral standards.

Change is hard and painful, and no one changes immediately, especially not sprawling bureaucracies. I also think it is rather ridiculous to disregard Pope Francis's reforms and changes and then shit on them for their past. That is one of the major aspects that Francis is reforming...

 

[IdreamofHIME]

"progressive"

 

[Aureon]

The Catholic church is the longest-standing organization on the planet, beating out just about everyone by at least a millennia.
They're slow changing. This isn't about internet congratulations, is is about a monolithic organization that still shapes the moral views of vast swathes of people, often in poverty-ridden, backwards places, making unprecedented progress in it's regressive ideas.
"But it could be better", sure, obviously it could. But even then, they can't change too fast, even if they wanted to, or they wouldn't be the organization of the old and regressive, would they?


Also, how is "caring for the poor" a progressive ideal according to this? It's practically the founding principle of the church for the last millennia, dammit.