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[TheOddOne]

Well, since they've been acquired they've (Rare's management) been answering to Microsoft, and when they disagreed new management ended up being put in place. Seriously, I'm not an industry insider, just read Nintex's post. Microsoft's demands caused quite a few issues and blunders.

I don't know if Rare's management has been infallible in all ways or not and I haven't stated they were.

Although I enjoy debating about strange things, this one is so ridiculous that it has stopped making any sense to me. The fuck happenin here?

Not to sound like a total douche, but the discussion started because I said that there are two sides to every story. Yet you kept on insiting that its all the fault of one party -- while I repeatedly said that the fault lies with MS.

I'd like to hear the other side of the story from Lionhead and Turn 10 who seem to get along fine with MS. Still, those studios aren't the only ones burned by the partnerships, Microsoft has hired a whole bunch of new developers and artists to work at various first party groups at their campus in Redmond. We've yet to see the results of their new ventures but instead of building studios they could've easily bought a studio so they've clearly changed their ways.

Turn10 is a internal studio created by them, so they might be happy on how that turned out.

 

[ElRenoRaven]

I'd like to hear the other side of the story from Lionhead and Turn 10 who seem to get along fine with MS. Still, those studios aren't the only ones burned by the partnerships, Microsoft has hired a whole bunch of new developers and artists to work at various first party groups at their campus in Redmond. We've yet to see the results of their new ventures but instead of building studios they could've easily bought a studio so they've clearly changed their ways.

Turn 10 I'll give you but even Lionhead has started to go downhill. BC was canned. Fable was great. Fable 2 was bug filled and honestly not that good. Not to mention you had to be braindead to get lost and die in that game. Combat was boiled down to two buttons. 1 for spells and 1 for melee. Then Fable 3 a lot of people agree is a bug ridden Piece of shit.

Also notice the same trend with Lionhead that happened to Bungie. Different games then Fable, Fable, Fable. I can pretty much predict what their next game is. You wanna guess what it's going to be? Yea Fable followed by more Fable.

With Bungie it was the same thing. Halo, Halo 2, Halo 3, Halo 3: ODST, Halo: Reach. Bungie had a couple of cool ideas floating around that never went anywhere sadly. I remember reading about a fantasy castle Siege like action game in particular around Halo 2 times. I think that could have been interesting as hell. Sadly we'll never know because they were the house of Halo under Microsoft.

 

[donny2112]

So what was the reason that Nintendo dropped it's partnership with Rare?

Stampers wanted to be fully owned. Nintendo was fine keeping things as they were, but didn't want to fully own them. Stampers asked Nintendo to sell back their share in the company. Stampers then sold themselves in full to MS.

 

[flak57]

Not to sound like a total douche, but the discussion started because I said that there are two sides to every story. Yet you kept on insiting that its all the fault of one party -- while I repeatedly said that the fault lies with MS.

Not at all, I thought you had misinterpreted the quote by Kirkhope where he flat out says it was Microsoft's fault for ruining the company.

Whether it actually was or wasn't is irrelevant to the above point.

However (and onto the second part of our debate), most all evidence seems to be pointing to Microsoft, Kirkhope's comment included in that.

 

[[Nintex]]

Stampers wanted to be fully owned. Nintendo was fine keeping things as they were, but didn't want to fully own them. Stampers asked Nintendo to sell back their share in the company. Stampers then sold themselves in full to MS.

I also believe it had something to do with Joel Hochberg who handled all business affairs for the Stampers. No doubt he wanted to cash out and convinced them to sell and looking at the price that MS paid for Rare you can hardly blame any of the parties involved for taking the deal

 

[TheOddOne]

However (and onto the second part of our debate), most all evidence seems to be pointing to Microsoft, Kirkhope's comment included in that.

I have no doubt that MS is a big factor into the company being in the state that it is now -- but how much did Rare play into this? Its convenient to blame one party, but the other one being way too quiet is something I found strange. Kirkhope's comment about N&B being even worse then the version we got and the senior guys looking at it as dismay, is for me a signal that internally it wasn't going as planned. Its the same thing with SOE closing down 3 studios -- you can blame the managment as much as you will, but how much did the studios contribute to its own downfall?

 

[ElRenoRaven]

I have no doubt that MS is a big factor into the company being in the state that it is now -- but how much did Rare play into this? Its convenient to blame one party, but the other one being way too quiet is something I found strange. Kirkhope's comment about N&B being even worse then the version we got and the senior guys looking at it as dismay, is for me a signal that internally it wasn't going as planned.

Oh at the end of the day I think everyone has to agree that the Stampers and Rare management have to shoulder some blame too for what happened. After all they allowed it to by allowing themselves to be bought by Microsoft.

 

[Kermit The Dog]

I have no doubt that MS is a big factor into the company being in the state that it is now -- but how much did Rare play into this? Its convenient to blame one party, but the other one being way too quiet is something I found strange. Kirkhope's comment about N&B being even worse then the version we got and the senior guys looking at it as dismay, is for me a signal that internally it wasn't going as planned.

You've single-handedly managed to entirely zap my intrigue and enjoyment of this thread. Take a hike.

Rare's problems began when the Stamper's lost their passion for the business. They never initiated its decline directly, but by dollar-chasing and piss-farting around with the studio's vision, they destabilised the company and left it in limbo. Rare never recovered.

 

[Atomski]

Love all this pointing fingers. Rare started going downhill before MS acquired them. They lost most of the original 007 and Perfect dark team way before, which went on to do Timesplitters. Its clear what MS bought was only a shell of its former self. Still they managed released some great stuff but still no one bought their shit. Its completely clear why they are where they are today.

 

[TheOddOne]

You've single-handedly managed to entirely zap my intrigue and enjoyment of this thread. Take a hike.

Rare's problems began when the Stamper's lost their passion for the business. They never initiated its decline directly, but by dollar-chasing and piss-farting around with the studio's vision, they destabilised the company and left it in limbo. Rare never recovered.

Sorry

Oh at the end of the day I think everyone has to agree that the Stampers and Rare management have to shoulder some blame too for what happened. After all they allowed it to by allowing themselves to be bought by Microsoft.

Thats all I'm saying, still MS is the core of this problem.

 

[Kermit The Dog]

Love all this pointing fingers. Rare started going downhill before MS acquired them. They lost most of the original 007 and Perfect dark team way before.

Your claimis the most-quoted and widely circulated allegation concerning Rare. It's also utter bullshit.

 

[Hero of Legend]

Love all this pointing fingers. Rare started going downhill before MS acquired them. They lost most of the original 007 and Perfect dark team way before, which went on to do Timesplitters. Its clear what MS bought was only a shell of its former self. Still they managed released some great stuff but still no one bought their shit. Its completely clear why they are where they are today.

That "shell" could've still achieved greatness had nothing changed, surely they could've still have done Banjo-Threeie, Donkey Kong Racing, and the like at least at comparable quality to their earlier efforts.

Besides, I think it was indeed most of the shooting team that was gone by then, the platforming teams were still there, and prior to SFA (which was awesome imo, minus not going back to the world after reaching the final boss), Conker was the most recent as their N64 game swan song, and that game was acclaimed from left and right.

 

[TheOddOne]

Your claimis the most-quoted and widely circulated allegation concerning Rare. It's also utter bullshit.

Was just going to point that out

 

[DICKS AHOY]

Off-topic from trying to figure out which part of the management of Rare is to blame for their current state (does it matter at this point?), but seeing as some posters in here seem to have some inside knowledge, does anybody know why Donkey Kong 64 was made the way it was, or if there was any inner-company drama surrounding its development?

It's got to be the only Rare game I can't see anything salvageable in it (beyond I guess being technically impressive for its time) and I can't see how even if it started development as building off SM64/BK's game design how it wound up being as dull and repetitive as it is. I also partially ask since I distinctly remember scribes bringing up the game having 4-player co-op and, which leads me to guess it may have been closer to what DKCR is and less BK1.5. Might also bring up some interesting questions about Rare's management way before the MS buyout if it turns out its development was being dictated by Nintendo.

Also (sort of) relevant, I bought VP:Trouble in Paradise a couple days ago. Sadly I don't have a chance to play it for another few months, but does anybody know how much it differs from the original VP?

 

[flak57]

Your claimis the most-quoted and widely circulated allegation concerning Rare. It's also utter bullshit.

Not to mention that the bulk of Perfect Dark, even, was made after the those few members had already left.

 

[Kermit The Dog]

Off-topic from trying to figure out which part of the management of Rare is to blame for their current state (does it matter at this point?), but seeing as some posters in here seem to have some inside knowledge, does anybody know why Donkey Kong 64 was made the way it was, or if there was any inner-company drama surrounding its development?

It's got to be the only Rare game I can't see anything salvageable in it (beyond I guess being technically impressive for its time) and I can't see how even if it started development as building off SM64/BK's game design how it wound up being as dull and repetitive as it is. I also partially ask since I distinctly remember scribes bringing up the game having 4-player co-op and, which leads me to guess it may have been closer to what DKCR is and less BK1.5. Might also bring up some interesting questions about Rare's management way before the MS buyout if it turns out its development was being dictated by Nintendo.

Not too sure about this one. I remember a few Rare people saying the backlash to the collectathon aspects of DK64 influenced the direction of Banjo Tooie and Conker: BFD. I mean, DK64 was a behemoth of a game. It mixed elements of RPG, adventure, platformer, FPS. It was the Irish Stew of Rare's N64 games. The thing was fucking huge and packed to the rafters with content, and even other game's content. Remnants of Banjo Kazooie were ported into DK64 from memory, and I know Fungi Forest was originally meant to be a world in Banjo Kazooie, but got canned towards the end of BK's development.

If anything, DK64 helped Rare realise that forcing players to collection 1500 fucking coloured bananas was probably a poor design decision, and let's not even get started on Beaver Bother. It prompted a more focused, quest-based Rare style of platformer. The success and criticism of DK64 was a significant reason for Conker's BFD complete overhaul from cutesy platformer to mature-style/FPS/adventure platformer.

If any game epitomises Rare, it was Conker's Bad Fur Day. It was Rare unshackled, Rare in their creative and crass element, and it remains a minor miracle that Nintendo even let a polygon of the final game leave Twycross.

So at the very least, I guess you can thank DK64 for giving us Conker?

 

[[Nintex]]

Off-topic from trying to figure out which part of the management of Rare is to blame for their current state (does it matter at this point?), but seeing as some posters in here seem to have some inside knowledge, does anybody know why Donkey Kong 64 was made the way it was, or if there was any inner-company drama surrounding its development?

It's got to be the only Rare game I can't see anything salvageable in it (beyond I guess being technically impressive for its time) and I can't see how even if it started development as building off SM64/BK's game design how it wound up being as dull and repetitive as it is. I also partially ask since I distinctly remember scribes bringing up the game having 4-player co-op and, which leads me to guess it may have been closer to what DKCR is and less BK1.5. Might also bring up some interesting questions about Rare's management way before the MS buyout if it turns out its development was being dictated by Nintendo.

Also (sort of) relevant, I bought VP:Trouble in Paradise a couple days ago. Sadly I don't have a chance to play it for another few months, but does anybody know how much it differs from the original VP?

Completely different times really. Donkey Kong 64 was like that by design also Rare could do no wrong during those days and collectables meant 'content', 'value' and 'hours of gameplay'. Nintendo stepped in quite a few times, at least they attempted but like I said different times. Nintendo told Rare it would be better to cancel GoldenEye, Rare finished it anyway. Back then you could just throw 10-12 programming/design/art guys in a room and after 1 or 2 years a game rolled out the door. It goes without saying that they were able to easily change the games based on feedback from their in-house testing teams as well. Rare had a lot of creative freedom and Microsoft actually started on the right foot by taking in NoA guys like Ken Lobb as well. Don't forget that Rare was the first western third party developer to ever sign a development deal with Nintendo. They played a huge role in the Project Reality/SGi stuff and Martin Hollis was hired by Nintendo during the development of the GameCube.

As Rare kept getting bigger it was clear that guys like Tim, Chris, Simon Farmer and others weren't really suited for their 'management roles' when the headcount at the studio reached 200+. They essentially ran Rare like a family business while it had became something much bigger. Also, Tim & Chris never lost interest in Rare if they had done so they would've left when MS bought them only Joel Hochberg wanted to retire and did so after MS bought Rare.

 

[The Awkward Wizard]

- Edmonds: "I'll show something before the end of 2009 "
- Rare: "Seavor's next game is mindblowing"
...
- Microsoft shoots down Edmonds MMO
...
- Banjo ships despite being 'not ready'

What was Seavor's mind blowing game? Urchin? Perfect Dark Core? Conker's Other Bad Fur Day?

What about Edmond's Sci-Fi MMO? Do we know anything about it? Anything leaked?

And how was BK: N&B not ready? What would they have done if they had more time? More parts? Weird West? Better challenges? More adventure/platforming elements that the first 2 Banjo games had?

 

[DICKS AHOY]

Honestly besides Wild Weird West getting cut causing parts of Showdown Town to become a bit empty (and no more Tip-Tup cameo )and the final showdown with Grunty being a bit anti-climatic, Nuts & Bolts didn't feel like a rushed product to me. Only other aspect that struck me as a bit rushed was the abundance of race-themed challenges, which I'm guessing were hastily put in to make up for whatever challenges got the chop when an entire world with its own unique challenges had to get canceled.

But hell I'm more irked by Kirkhope saying Nuts & Bolts looked 'even worse' at one point, since I think it and VP are easily the best things Rare made since the N64 days (and depending on who you ask even better).

 

[Talladega Knight]

is there a list out there of KNOWN cancelled/delayed rare games?

 

[WillyFive]

is there a list out there of KNOWN cancelled/delayed rare games?

Canceled completely? I know of Urchin (some dark game about warewolves), a new Battletoads game, and the Conker sequel (apparently it was Medieval themed?).

But most of cancelled games at Rare just become new ones (like Dinosaur Planet to Star Fox Adventures, Diddy Kong Pilot to Banjo Pilot, Dream to Banjo-Kazooie, and such).

 

[Oxx]

Seeing as this seems to be a catch-all thread for Rare reminiscences and gossip, I've always wondered if there was a time during the N64-era when different people within Rare were simultaneously working on DK64, Conker, and Banjo?

You have to imagine that if such a situation where to happen this generation that one of the big-wigs would have cancelled two of them and made them use all the best ideas and designs in one amazing game.

 

[Arooguy]

Canceled completely? I know of Urchin (some dark game about warewolves), a new Battletoads game, and the Conker sequel (apparently it was Medieval themed?).

But most of cancelled games at Rare just become new ones (like Dinosaur Planet to Star Fox Adventures, Diddy Kong Pilot to Banjo Pilot, Dream to Banjo-Kazooie, and such).

There was also Perfect Dark Core (mechs were supposed to be a major focus), The Fast and the Furriest (Xbox Live Vision camera racing game), Sabreman Stampede (a Diddy Kong Racing type game with original characters), and Kameo 2 (which looked like Assassin's Creed with transforming).

 

[IOnEI Falcon]

It looks like Ice Mario has given up as the Rare Witch Project is now the Rare or Whatever Project...

Rare-Extreme is also in the middle of a discussion about merging with Dashing...

 

[[Nintex]]

Seeing as this seems to be a catch-all thread for Rare reminiscences and gossip, I've always wondered if there was a time during the N64-era when different people within Rare were simultaneously working on DK64, Conker, and Banjo?

You have to imagine that if such a situation where to happen this generation that one of the big-wigs would have cancelled two of them and made them use all the best ideas and designs in one amazing game.

There was some sort of R&D1/EAD like competition between the teams. They all tried to make the better game. DK64 has some unused assets from Banjo Kazooie and I believe that was made after BK and most the team moved on to BT next. There seems to have been some sort of "graduating" program in place because the senior designer of the previous game would be the lead designer/director of the next game. The director of the previous game would move on to become producer for the new game. That's how Mayles and a bunch of others moved up the ranks. Also, Conker was changed during development because the original game looked like Banjo Kazooie and Seavor didn't want to make just another platformer. So he went to town and introduced a more obscure type of game

There was also Perfect Dark Core (mechs were supposed to be a major focus), The Fast and the Furriest (Xbox Live Vision camera racing game), Sabreman Stampede (a Diddy Kong Racing type game with original characters), and Kameo 2 (which looked like Assassin's Creed with transforming).

There's also a render of a photo realistic bunny and a girl in a white skirt that belonged to one of Seavor's games. A water racing game, a kart racing game(Banjo's car was salvaged for Sonic & Sega racing), an MMO, a second Kameo prototype, a 'fantasy game' prototype, Jet Force Gemini XBLA and a bunch of other stuff like Avatar Sports(which became kinect sports(at least part of it)), Kinect Fit, a music game and some stuff I can't remember.

 

[Shed_a_Ninja]

It looks like Ice Mario has given up as the Rare Witch Project is now the Rare or Whatever Project...

Rare-Extreme is also in the middle of a discussion about merging with Dashing...

I wonder what kind of defense Wozza will have now.

 

[Prine]

Your claimis the most-quoted and widely circulated allegation concerning Rare. It's also utter bullshit.

Shocked people still believe that. Well said

 

[TheOddOne]

There was also Perfect Dark Core (mechs were supposed to be a major focus), The Fast and the Furriest (Xbox Live Vision camera racing game), Sabreman Stampede (a Diddy Kong Racing type game with original characters), and Kameo 2 (which looked like Assassin's Creed with transforming).

Would have loved that :|

 

[Shiggy]

Shocked people still believe that. Well said

Yup, most only left after 2009, so they were still there for 6 years.

Incomplete list for the MS era:
Canned games/ prototypes?
Sabreman Stampede
Kameo 2
Urchin
Fast and the Furriest
Perfect Dark Core
GoldenEye XBLA
Banjo-Pilot 3D
They also have videos for some other new prototypes there...


Beta/ Concept stuff:
Perfect Dark Zero 360
Kameo GCN
Perfect Dark Zero Xbox1
Kameo Xbox1
Banjo Nuts Bolts
StarFox Adventures

 

[Talladega Knight]

jfg xbla

 

[IOnEI Falcon]

I am pretty disappointed for Sabreman Stampede...

 

[WillyFive]

I am pretty disappointed for Sabreman Stampede...

Yeah. Donkey Kong Racing was THE game I was hyped for back before the Gamecube came out, and having it cancelled made me sad. I was excited for it to at least be finished as Sabreman Stampede for the Xbox or something (like Diddy Kong Pilot was finished as Banjo Pilot), but no luck.

I mean, this looked like the best thing ever.

 

[Linkhero1]

Pardon my ignorance, but does this mean that Microsoft won't use most of Rare's ips? If so why don't they sell them off to another company? It would be great if Nintendo were to obtain the Banjo ip.

 

[Pyrokai]

No, Microsoft still owns the Rare IPs now and won't be selling them off (to our chagrin). This does not mean the loss of any IP and they can be used whenever they want to use them.

 

[RpgN]

You guys pretty much convinced me to give Banjo Kazooie Nuts & Bolts demo another try. A long time ago, I just tried it for a few seconds and deleted it because the text didn't pause and it would skip on its own (I like to take my time and continue when I'm ready). Maybe there is an option somewhere to make it stop.

I've been playing the original Banjo Kazooie on xbox live recently (about 80% through) and that game is just great, charming and fun.

To think that they won't get to make a game like that again and lost a huge part of their staff, hurts a lot. I mean I always knew that they had trouble but wasn't expecting it was that bad.

Luckily I have Banjo Tooie (xbox live), Kameo, Viva Piñata DS, VP Trouble in Paradise and Starfox Adventures for some more Rare magic. Tried both Trouble in Paradise and Banjo Tooie before and loved them, played quite a bit of Starfox Adventures a long time ago and thought it was solid but too many stuff to collect.

Perferct Dark Zero and the original one on Xbox live suck big time though. The original I understand why it would be loved for what it did back then but I'm not looking at it in a nostalgic way and am not big on FPSs besides ones with fantasy and a lot of polish.

 

[apana]

We could've also had, at least right around now, a Banjo for Wii by Eurocom ala Goldeneye, adding to the irony.

Yep, Activision would have been a better choice than Microsoft. Problem is no one was willing to shell out an ungodly sum of 375 million dollars for Rare tho. The Stamper Bros must be on their own private island somewhere.

 

[RpgN]

^
You seriously think Activision would have been a better choice? Where they would force rare to release games yearly and no delay, where there would be lack of polish or even making the game decent. I think they would have been worse off, honestly.

 

[[Nintex]]

No, Microsoft still owns the Rare IPs now and won't be selling them off (to our chagrin). This does not mean the loss of any IP and they can be used whenever they want to use them.

Microsoft shot down every project related to Rare IP's in 2009 and in the latest scribes they told people to look elsewhere for their platforming fix because they were going to focus on Kinect. So unless the new studio director once again changes the focus the old characters are dead as far as Rare and Microsoft are concerned.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

Microsoft shot down every project related to Rare IP's in 2009 and in the latest scribes they told people to look elsewhere for their platforming fix because they were going to focus on Kinect. So unless the new studio director once again changes the focus the old characters are dead as far as Rare and Microsoft are concerned.

They shut down specific projects (probably because, going by the recent Perfect Dark leak, they looked like shit), that doesn't rule out the possibility of those IPs being used in more promising games.

 

[Mael]

They shut down specific projects (probably because, going by the recent Perfect Dark leak, they looked like shit), that doesn't rule out the possibility of those IPs being used in more promising games.

Microsoft shot down every project related to Rare IP's in 2009 and in the latest scribes they told people to look elsewhere for their platforming fix because they were going to focus on Kinect. So unless the new studio director once again changes the focus the old characters are dead as far as Rare and Microsoft are concerned.

Yep sounds like Conker is coming back...

 

[TheOddOne]

Microsoft shot down every project related to Rare IP's in 2009 and in the latest scribes they told people to look elsewhere for their platforming fix because they were going to focus on Kinect. So unless the new studio director once again changes the focus the old characters are dead as far as Rare and Microsoft are concerned.

I still find it strange that they hired a guy that has only managed racing studios thus far. Hell even some people from Codemasters have joined Rare recently. Wild hunch: Rare doing PGR.

 

[[Nintex]]

I still find it strange that they hired a guy that has only managed racing studios thus far. Hell even some people from Codemasters have joined Rare recently. Wild hunch: Rare doing PGR.

Could be they helped out on Forza 2 and there's also the rumor that Slightly Mad Studios was doing PGR and it was shot down and that's why they're without a project now.

 

[NemesisPrime]

Yep, Activision would have been a better choice than Microsoft. Problem is no one was willing to shell out an ungodly sum of 375 million dollars for Rare tho. The Stamper Bros must be on their own private island somewhere.

Activision? Lol

 

[TheOddOne]

Could be they helped out on Forza 2 and there's also the rumor that Slightly Mad Studios was doing PGR and it was shot down and that's why they're without a project now.

Dunno, sounds like EA might have cancelled their project.

"Essentially we were let down at the last minute by one publisher who we'd signed a deal with only for it to be canned before we even started. I can't say who," Bell said. He went on to say that he's still in talks with the publisher in question among others. As for the studio's next project, that's currently up in the air. Bell says Slightly Mad hasn't been able to "secure a deal for a new project... yet," though he adds that he's "optimistic about the future."

Doubt that Microsoft would still be talking to them, they are a dictated racing studio. What other racing IP would they give them? Don't bring up Rallisport please.

 

[Datschge]

^
You seriously think Activision would have been a better choice? Where they would force rare to release games yearly and no delay, where there would be lack of polish or even making the game decent. I think they would have been worse off, honestly.

Who knows. Rare used to continuously release a lot of games in a rather short time before developments more and more got stuck in what seem like never ending concept stages. If more releases were the goal instead some few high profile releases more wacky risky games may have seen the light instead being changed once again.

 

[IOnEI Falcon]

Microsoft shot down every project related to Rare IP's in 2009 and in the latest scribes they told people to look elsewhere for their platforming fix because they were going to focus on Kinect. So unless the new studio director once again changes the focus the old characters are dead as far as Rare and Microsoft are concerned.

It was tough to read Leigh's words...

 

[deleted]

First time I hear of Sabreman Stampede and it looks like it could have been a perfect game for me

I would have liked to explore that world.

 

[IOnEI Falcon]

First time I hear of Sabreman Stampede and it looks like it could have been a perfect game for me

I would have liked to explore that world.

Yeah, there are fewer and fewer games that have worlds that are just screaming at me to explore...Rare was king of that.

 

[Kermit The Dog]

Yeah, there are fewer and fewer games that have worlds that are just screaming at me to explore...Rare was king of that.

Yep. Only Rockstar create worlds I love to explore. Red Dead's world stirred something within me I haven't felt since exploring Perfect Dark and Banjo Tooie.

 

[Barkley's Justice]

ugh why is this thread still going? it's over yo. rare sucks, deal with it.