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The Real Wage Gap

The secret sauce to the US's economic success is that it really really sucks to be poor or even average, but being at least upper middle class is living like a medieval lord. Same thing with China based on my conversations with some of my Chinese colleagues.
 
Well a lot of blue state people took advantage of this economic arbitrage during the pandemic, and caused chaos for the places they moved to. So it goes both ways. The gap really is quite large, but still probably not as large as it is between Europe and the US. I think the upper end of salary is much different than just 5k, although starting out, yes probably.

I actually know that compared to where I work and the rates that get paid are 20% to 30% higher here in my southern city than a northern city where my work is headquartered. The Rates in those cities that cost far more for housing is mind blowing. I have tried to expand my team here but it is impossible to compete pay wise because of the scales. We do better hiring local because their expectations are lower.
 
Doesn't matter if it's private or public if there aren't laws protecting patients. Public entities can be just as bad. If the government deems you not worthy of treatment and they are the only provider, you're s.o.l.


GDP is a crap indicator of how the economy is doing. 1) it includes government spending which at best is a net neutral(if no waste is involved) because it just took it from the populace that could have done the same spending. 2) It includes monetary inflation. So when inflation goes up so does GDP, it doesn't mean things are growing in real terms.

For the wealth gap, that really started once we stopped backing our currency with money and went pure fiat as shown at the website: www.wtfhappenedin1971.com

Like California is the highest GDP state I think. Cause it has all these tech companies there.
But whenever I see videos of there, its all a bunch of riots or streets filled with crackheads in the open
 
Like California is the highest GDP state I think. Cause it has all these tech companies there.
But whenever I see videos of there, its all a bunch of riots or streets filled with crackheads in the open
Yes. The Governor and state politicians always tout that we are the 4th largest economy. Well it doesn't mean crap if we have such a large economy but are in debt and have a deficit each year. Unlike the Federal government that can create dollars out of thin air via the Federal Reserve System, states actually need to practice sound fiscal policies.

Also by some studies California has lost over a trillion in investments and businesses due to bad policies driving out companies. The state is good if you're poor because you can get tons of welfare or rich because you can afford the high expenses but it isn't good for the working class.
 
Incorrect. It's very much felt by ordinary people, as you can see by the median disposable income at PPP rates

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But you also have these charts on the same page

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Inflation outpacing salary growth. Median is of course better than average when it comes to this stuff, but results are still fucked by top earners.

I was once talking to a recruiter who said my job would pay a little more than half in the UK. When I went to Germany I felt positively rich. I checked the GDP number of Berlin - one of the largest and richest cities in Europe - and it has a similar economic output to 2nd or 3rd tier American cities like Orlando.

IIRC when the EU was formed, it had a similar GDP to the USA, but it's fallen very far behind, far more behind than they think.

A lot of that had to do with the growth of big tech giants. In 2000 GDP of EU and USA was similar, since then trillion dollars big tech companies started to dominate. And USA has no incentive to try to stop them monopolizing their markets.
 
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The secret sauce to the US's economic success is that it really really sucks to be poor or even average, but being at least upper middle class is living like a medieval lord. Same thing with China based on my conversations with some of my Chinese colleagues.
If that was true India would be considered the greatest country on earth.
 
A lot of that had to do with the growth of big tech giants. In 2000 GDP of EU and USA was similar, since then trillion dollars big tech companies started to dominate. And USA has no incentive to try to stop them monopolizing their markets.
well then one has to consider why US companies were able to do this while European ones like Nokia and Phillips got BTFO. There are cultural and business climate reasons why.
 
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Pl

well then one has to consider why US companies were able to do this while European ones like Nokia and Phillips got BTFO. There are cultural and business climate reasons why.
I'm not sure, long term, having tech companies do all their manufacturing in asia, particularly China, is gonna work out well (for the non-Chinese, anyway). If the EU had remained more insular and intradependent internally with their own phones, electronics, etc, might have been a wiser course. Had they not (mostly) abandoned nuclear to chase imported oil/gas as well. Alas, the EU is really more like the middle east, south america, africa, or SE asia where all the countries favorite hobby is warring amongst themselves. It's really just been the post-WW2 era that big Daddy USA (and to some extent lesser Daddy USSR) squashed all the kids from fighting amongst themselves and that era looks to be well and truly over.
 
US probably has like 10x more natural resources per person than the UK.

Being poorly paid in the UK is really only a major problem if you are a white male. Any other group and there's a 'decent' standard which the state will prevent you falling below.
 
Dont worry Brits. Us Commonwealth Canadians are the same boat. And we're just over the border from the US. You make so much more money in the US.

And taxes are lower in the US too. In Canada, when you buy most stuff (some things are tax reduced or exempt) you pay tax of about 13-15%, while Alberta I think only pays 5% as they dont have provincial tax due to oil money. And gov controlled stuff like gas, smokes and cigarettes have huge taxes vs the US.

Skimming it, when you buy stuff in the US, states avg out only about 7% goods tax when buying things. And some states have 0% sales tax. And some states have 0% income tax (only federal tax).

The only way it seems someone loses out in the US (at least on paper) is if they get nailed with crazy out of pocket medical expenses not covered by supplemental insurance which UK/Canadians would get covered for free via taxes.

But if a US person doesnt get dinged with big healthcare costs killing the savings, the avg American should be pocketing good money due to high wages and lower taxes. While we pay a lot of tax into the government pot and many of us will barely use it. But somehow that giant pool of money disappears.
 
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The UK can take solace in the fact they are not alone



Almost all of Europe, plus Canada, are poorer than most of the US

This is what happens when the US doesn't give a shit about "managed decline" but instead chooses growth and prosperity and will continue to do so. Europe and Canada can choose to fade away into history as they see fit, we here in Murrica don't give a shit

This is absolutely meaningless when you consider most of those states have higher taxes, but also more paid vacations, universal healthcare, and VAT included in MSRP compared to the US, among other things.
An Italian would be considered pretty wealthy if he made €100,000/year, but those who make 30-40k won't go broke overnight if they have an accident, and can enjoy more paid vacations and holidays than anyone in America.
It's not apples to apples, so these raw numbers must be heavily contextualized.
 
people might use it to shit on the UK but the NHS is amazing.

i'll take being "poorer" any day over worrying if i can afford an ambulance or running out of a hospital because i'm worried about going into debt.
If there's an ambulance, One of my relatives was told they would have to wait 7 hours for one. The standard of healthcare the NHS provides is very poor in comparison to the US.
 
This is absolutely meaningless when you consider most of those states have higher taxes, but also more paid vacations, universal healthcare, and VAT included in MSRP compared to the US, among other things.
An Italian would be considered pretty wealthy if he made €100,000/year, but those who make 30-40k won't go broke overnight if they have an accident, and can enjoy more paid vacations and holidays than anyone in America.
It's not apples to apples, so these raw numbers must be heavily contextualized.
People who make $120,000 in the US have paid vacation and health insurance.

People who make $30,000 have Medicaid. They can go to a hospital and get better healthcare and faster than what they can get in most of Europe.

I know that Europeans need on some level to believe that Americans are living some sort of Dickensian nightmare but it's just not true.
 
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Is this adjusted for cost of living in addition to wages?

Like the cost of living surely is lower in, say, West Virginia than in the UK--curious if WV-ers have both higher salaries and lower cost of living. That'd be nuts.
 
People who make $120,000 in the US have paid vacation and health insurance.

People who make $30,000 have Medicaid.

I know that Europeans need on some level to believe that Americans are living some sort of Dickensian nightmare but it's just not true.
Yes, but I expect that health insurance to cost around ten times what it would cost in a country like Italy for comparable offerings. And an American gets how many days of paid vacation?

Also, do you even pay any taxes in the US if you make 30,000 a year? Genuinely curious.
 
If there's an ambulance, One of my relatives was told they would have to wait 7 hours for one. The standard of healthcare the NHS provides is very poor in comparison to the US.

That was probably some extreme scenario, it was not available for some reason (all of them used for some big accident for example)

We don't have NHS here but healthcare systems are similar in Europe. Waiting for ambulance is 10-30 minutes max where I live and this is from several instances I have waited for it (three times it was for me).

Now, waiting for Police is something else... from 1h to never.
 
Yes, but I expect that health insurance to cost around ten times what it would cost in a country like Italy for comparable offerings. And an American gets how many days of paid vacation?
you aren't paying market rate. You get insurance through your employer. Everyone who is employed in some middle class type of salary has health insurance through their employer.

Regarding vacation, yea the European almost certainly has more, but we're not slaving away 52 weeks a year here.
Also, do you even pay any taxes in the US if you make 30,000 a year? Genuinely curious.
Not really.
 
Yes, but I expect that health insurance to cost around ten times what it would cost in a country like Italy for comparable offerings. And an American gets how many days of paid vacation?

Also, do you even pay any taxes in the US if you make 30,000 a year? Genuinely curious.
All benefits depend on the level of job you have. The out of pocket contributions to health insurance and the number of PTO days depend on the level of job. In-demand professionals and people in good unions likely have much less taken out of their paycheck than say someone working a normal middle class office job. For PTO, typically lower end jobs will start at 2 weeks + ~10 holidays and go up based on experience. Higher tier jobs start with more, and it is common in tech to simply have unlimited.
 
People who make $120,000 in the US have paid vacation and health insurance.

People who make $30,000 have Medicaid. They can go to a hospital and get better healthcare and faster than what they can get in most of Europe.

I know that Europeans need on some level to believe that Americans are living some sort of Dickensian nightmare but it's just not true.
A key element to the American mindset is the risk:reward. If you live healthy and don't get hurt/sick (obviously some element of luck here but a VAST amount of health care is essentially self inflicted) then you can bank YOUR money and have it for YOURSELF. So rather than relying almost exclusively on the state to care for you, you rely on YOURSELF.

Obviously in the past few decades Americans have been poisoned and infected with a mass sugar epidemic, along with microplastics and god knows what else contributes to all the auto-immune disorders and whatnot, but diabetes alone is CRUSHING us and our way of life as it destroys many folks ability to save.

If you want to complain about the cost of fighting cancer, just realize that, for most cancers, it WORKS.

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That massive bolus from smoking is falling away (we can debate if this is a good or bad thing from a national perspective) and while it isn't shown here, blood cancers like leukemia and stuff are being CURED, though at a cost.
 
It is fairly common in my neck of a wealthy US suburb for people to pay for concierge doctors. This is like gamepass for doctoring, you pay ~$200-$500/month and get unlimited medical care from a specific doctor (these are small businesses run by a Physician or group of Physicians outside of the insurance system). This buys you different stuff depending on the doctor, but typically includes extensive executive level physicals, 24/7 access, in-home care, etc. They also sell DLC with all of the cosmetic stuff and GLP-1.
 
Mississippi gave us Elvis and through him rock and roll.
They also give a large number of cars



A lot of people don't realize many big international auto companies have their US domestic assembly plants in the South, including Toyota, Honda, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, and others. This is because the states there don't mandate membership in the large auto workers unions. Ironically, the power of those same auto workers unions have driven the American auto companies like Ford and GM to move most of their assembly to Mexico
 
People who make $120,000 in the US have paid vacation and health insurance.

People who make $30,000 have Medicaid. They can go to a hospital and get better healthcare and faster than what they can get in most of Europe.

I know that Europeans need on some level to believe that Americans are living some sort of Dickensian nightmare but it's just not true.

Insurance doesn't protect you from racking up obscene bills. Your system is predatory and completely screwing you over. That's very much a fact.

Good luck getting medicaid if you're single on 20k, nevermind 30k lmao.
 
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As an American, I like to stir shit up online about other countries or activate regional rivalries that I know little about.

I was saying something about Wales and Cornwall and some other places in some other threads. I hardly know anything about those countries/places. Other than Wales is where King Arthur is actually from (See? Am I that concerned or am I doing it again?).

Don't even try to say I don't know geography. My shower curtain is a world map and when I'm pooping from eating yet another Bloomin' Onion from The Outback Steak House (the only good thing the Austrians invented (See? But now, this joke has layers of suspicion. Like the onion.)), I'm studying Africa and South America. You only study European geography at my house when you're a-peein'.

I get some kind of sick, imperialist joy out of all of this. In the end, I'm only joking. My opinion of Europeans has a lot of negative aspects but I know better than to think that's a reasonable opinion since I've never even been there and unfortunately I don't know many people from there.

Also I've hit the age as a man to get really into WW2 and I think I'll just stay here in ISLAND FORTRESS AMERICA
 
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Average means shit when u have to pay 200k for your cancer treatment
I had to fight my job to convince them to pay me out their portion of what they pay for health insurance so I can buy on the open market to make it worthwhile. Sure, I make now 155K

But the craziest shit of all is that I'm paying about 800/mo for health insurance that has payments that I can predict (Kaiser Platinum) with them reimbursing me 300 a month. On the plus side, I'll never pay more than 1K if something MAJOR happens and surgeries are a couple hundred dollars.

This shit absolutely sucks and there has to be a better way than this - I'm not saying he deserved it but the amount of support Luigi got should've signaled SOMETHING was wrong. He has nearly 1.5 million and suddenly insurance companies are approving more claims than they did a year ago.
 
As an American, I like to stir shit up online about other countries or activate regional rivalries that I know little about.

I was saying something about Wales and Cornwall and some other places in some other threads. I hardly know anything about those countries/places. Other than Wales is where King Arthur is actually from (See? Am I that concerned or am I doing it again?).


Don't even try to say I don't know geography. My shower curtain is a world map and when I'm pooping from eating yet another Bloomin' Onion from The Outback Steak House (the only good thing the Austrians invented (See? But now, this joke has layers of suspicion. Like the onion.)), I'm studying Africa and South America. You only study European geography at my house when you're a-peein'.

I get some kind of sick, imperialist joy out of all of this. In the end, I'm only joking. My opinion of Europeans has a lot of negative aspects but I know better than to think that's a reasonable opinion since I've never even been there and unfortunately I don't know many people from there.

Also I've hit the age as a man to get really into WW2 and I think I'll just stay here in ISLAND FORTRESS AMERICA
checkers-say-information-th-post-could-mislead-people-homie-propagate-unverifiable-facts-my-fella
 
What's stopping you from doing Revolution yourself? Do you want to be a vassal to another country?

Get rid of people that want unlimited migrants (and your taxes pay for them) and voila.

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Of course voting is still possible, but it seems that in Western Europe ALL parties want this shit.
Would love to have someone to vote for but where I live, Ireland, every single major party is obsessed with it. Those that aren't only speak of it in hushed tones for fear of the internet calling them names.

Irelands a strange place, politically its always 5 hours late to the party. Our discourse currently looks like something from 2019, all trannies and "diversity is our strength". If the logic holds we'll be more in line with current America when the calendar hits the early 2030s. If not I'd strongly consider trying to emigrate to the US (legally of course :messenger_tears_of_joy: ). Any chance I can stay at your house?!
 
They also give a large number of cars



A lot of people don't realize many big international auto companies have their US domestic assembly plants in the South, including Toyota, Honda, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, and others. This is because the states there don't mandate membership in the large auto workers unions. Ironically, the power of those same auto workers unions have driven the American auto companies like Ford and GM to move most of their assembly to Mexico


The reason the UK had such a decline is simple: Brexit.
They used to make cars and export them freely to the rest of the EU. Now, the UK is outside the EU, so it's cheaper for car companies to relocate to other EU countries.
 
The reason the UK had such a decline is simple: Brexit.
They used to make cars and export them freely to the rest of the EU. Now, the UK is outside the EU, so it's cheaper for car companies to relocate to other EU countries.
And financial services too.
 
Would love to have someone to vote for but where I live, Ireland, every single major party is obsessed with it. Those that aren't only speak of it in hushed tones for fear of the internet calling them names.

Irelands a strange place, politically its always 5 hours late to the party. Our discourse currently looks like something from 2019, all trannies and "diversity is our strength". If the logic holds we'll be more in line with current America when the calendar hits the early 2030s. If not I'd strongly consider trying to emigrate to the US (legally of course :messenger_tears_of_joy: ). Any chance I can stay at your house?!

I'm from Poland but we rejected woke bullshit when it was just getting popular in US.

We don't have migrants (only small numbers) but while economy is constantly going up, it's still behind western Europe.
 
The reason the UK had such a decline is simple: Brexit.
They used to make cars and export them freely to the rest of the EU. Now, the UK is outside the EU, so it's cheaper for car companies to relocate to other EU countries.
We stopped making cars a loooooong time ago (mass market ones at least, not the expensive ones that no one can afford). Well okay not that long, but certainly way before brexit was a mere flicker in farage's eye. And even when we did, I'm not sure how appealing the likes of an Austin Allegro was to the European market:


oF9w2KE2iKW897j4.png
 
We stopped making cars a loooooong time ago (mass market ones at least, not the expensive ones that no one can afford). Well okay not that long, but certainly way before brexit was a mere flicker in farage's eye. And even when we did, I'm not sure how appealing the likes of an Austin Allegro was to the European market:


oF9w2KE2iKW897j4.png

Wrong. British Leyland stopped making cars a long time ago. And because it was such a massive conglomerate, it took out most of the British car brands with it.
But before Brexit, the UK was a good place for companies from other countries to build and even design cars. It had a skilled labor force and being a part of the EU, it had direct, unrestricted access to a huge market.
Just consider that several F1 teams have headquarters or development centers in the UK.
 
nd because it was such a massive conglomerate, it took out most of the British car brands with it.
But before Brexit, the UK was a good place for companies from other countries to build and even design cars. It had a skilled labor force and being a part of the EU, it had direct, unrestricted access to a huge market.
Just consider that several F1 teams have headquarters or development centers in the UK.

Ah I see - you're taking about British based factories for foreign manufacturers. In that case yes they did indeed all fuck off (probably becuase of Brexit, I can't recall as I was wasn't lving in the UK at the that time).

F1 is a slightly different kettle of eggs though as its a British sport, certeainly headquarted over here aso I guess its just always been that way. Not that F1 is particularly connected to the mass market production of cars mind you...

Oh well, on the upside we've still got pharma companies pumping pills out around the globe - better than nothing...
 
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At least in the UK we don't have to worry about if we're calculating the right percentage for a tip to not get a shit service, and that advertised price is that price.
 
Hey hey hey. I see Mississippi coming up a lot. UK must really think we are shit over here to feel bad about being below us. Truth is we have taken education by the horns and made some big strides in the state. Even other Americans don't realize what we are becoming:

Mississippi has achieved significant educational gains, with the 2025 KIDS COUNT Data Book ranking the state 16th in the nation for education, its highest ranking ever. After adjusting for demographics and poverty, Mississippi ranks #1 in the nation for reading and mathematics (4th and 8th grade). The state notably rose from 49th in 2013 to 9th in 2024 for 4th-grade literacy.

I know most American's never thought we would not be dead last or 49th, lol. Sometimes you can get better if you plan your work and work your plan.
 
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I'm from Poland but we rejected woke bullshit when it was just getting popular in US.

We don't have migrants (only small numbers) but while economy is constantly going up, it's still behind western Europe.
I'm going to assume Eastern Europe as a whole is still the same as always?

Hot blonde women who doll up and act like women, and guys still act like guys?

The forever stereotype is those Eastern Euro and Russian hotties are materialistic and princessy. But hell, I'll accept that for pure hotness!
 
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