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[Piecake]

Read most of the thread, and it is unclear to me how well these methods work on more technical studies (i.e. Maths, engineering or sciences related studies. As opposed to history or psychology or whatnot). Most of it seems relevant, but it does not seem exact. What needs to be modified?

Also, I recently started studying maths in uni after not having done so since highschool (a little over five years ago). I found that while I did remember the basics (derivatives, integrals, etc) I could not explain what I did and could not do very difficult problems.
I then viewed online a series of lectures which proports to be "understanding based" (even going back to the most basic math) attempting to get students to understand rather than memorise, etc. (though formulas cheatsheets and calculators are still not allowed). It, along with fitting problems, mostly mixed from different topics, did wonders. I now understand the material better than I ever have, and can much more quickly assimilate new knowledge. I often forget formulas and the like but I now have the ability to recreate most of them.
Not sure if that's really related, but this turned maths from something I had neutral to negative feelings about to actually actively enjoying it, as each problem is like a new riddle and I get a real pleasure from actually understanding these things rather than knowing formulas and solution methods by rote.

That is actually well in-line with the research in the book. Memorizing rules and then applying those rules is not very cognitively difficult. You do not understand the underling principle of the rule and do not understand how that rule connects to your growing body of math/scientific knowledge. You do not see patterns.

Moreover, mixing in old problems that you somewhat already know, but are related to that, which seems to be what your class did is very very related. That is the whole concept of interleaving. This makes it so that you can make better distinctions. How do I know how to solve this problem and how to solve this different but somewhat related problems? You do that by working on them 'together' through the process of interleaving.

So yea, your course took a lot of the principles in this book and applied it to your class. I think you might be getting hung up on idea of testing. Basically, what they mean by testing is recall-practice (not review-practice). Recall Recall Recall, and the more cognitive effort you put into that recall, such as seeing patterns, understanding the underlining principle, and making connections to prior knowledge the more that knowledge will 'stick'

What you should do forward is used spaced-repetition testing if you do not want to forget all of that. If you do not, you most certainly will. I would look into Anki. You can use them as simple flashcards, or flashcards that you will use to force you to recall all of that deeper meaning good stuff. It is up to you. Again, testing in this sense is recalling. No notes, no hints, no nothing. It all comes from your brain. Then get feedback on your answers to make corrections. Then do that sort of practice-recall when you are studying in future math lectures.

Honestly, I think this sort of system works better for math and science, and the like

 

[old]

They've been saying this since I was a kid. "Don't cram because you won't retain it."

So I didn't cram in grade school or in high school. C average.

Got to college and tried cramming for the first time. Dean's list. Scholar's list. Honor Society. President's list.

Cram kids. Cram, cram, cram. Cramming gets you better grades. Better grades mean better opportunities and better careers. Once I realized how easy it was to get A's from cramming I felt betrayed by all of those teachers and others who told me not to cram growing up. A kid shouldn't have to spot and dodge bullshit from their teachers to protect their own future prospects.

 

[Piecake]

They've been saying this since I was a kid. "Don't cram because you won't retain it."

So I didn't cram in grade school or in high school. C average.

Got to college and tried cramming for the first time. Dean's list. Scholar's list. Honor Society. President's list.

Cram kids. Cram, cram, cram. Cramming gets you better grades. Better grades mean better opportunities and better careers. Once I realized how easy it was to get A's from cramming I felt betrayed by all of those teachers and others who told me not to cram growing up. A kid shouldn't have to spot and dodge bullshit from their teachers to protect their own future prospects.

Well, how were you studying when you were not cramming? Were you re-reading and reviewing your notes? If so, it is not terribly surprising that you are finding cramming more useful because just look at these neat fancy graph

You forget 70% of what you've read and heard within a day. It is no surprise then that spaced out study that focuses on re-reading and review does worse than cramming for some people (especially if you break your study up into separate chunks).

You overcome this problem by interrupting that forgetting process by practice-recall and self-testing. You do not review. You study by answering your review questions, themes, principles, problems, etc from memory, check to see if you were right, make adjustments depending on you were, and then test yourself again, the frequency of which depends on if you were able to answer it successfully or not.

That is how you actually remember things. I mean, just look at the GAFer in second year medical school. Just think how much easier his life would be for this upcoming year if he actually remembered most of what he learned? Learning and knowledge is like construction a pyramid. Cramming and re-reading and reviewing can get you through the easy stuff, and you will slowly be able to build it up, but will see tons of blocks just fall down and away. Self-testing and practice-recall using spaced repetition testing will help you build that pyramid much faster and drastically reduce falling stones. Why is that important? Well, who do you think is better equipped to handle complex problems that reside at the very tipy top of the pyramid?

 

[Monocle]

Nice OP. I'll have to check out that book soon.

 

[Indicate]

So I got the book and I noticed, OP, that you left out something important about spaced retrieval practice. It has to do with the duration between practices. Of course, I'm not going to explain what it is since that will defeat the purpose of this test.

I read through a quarter of the book so far and it's been great.

 

[jepense]

They've been saying this since I was a kid. "Don't cram because you won't retain it."

So I didn't cram in grade school or in high school. C average.

Got to college and tried cramming for the first time. Dean's list. Scholar's list. Honor Society. President's list.

Cram kids. Cram, cram, cram. Cramming gets you better grades. Better grades mean better opportunities and better careers. Once I realized how easy it was to get A's from cramming I felt betrayed by all of those teachers and others who told me not to cram growing up. A kid shouldn't have to spot and dodge bullshit from their teachers to protect their own future prospects.

Yes, but this is a problem of the used evaluation methods. The typical school system definitely rewards cramming, and that's why students do it. And the reason these methods are used is because they are easy to control and can be standardised. Measuring actual learning and understanding in a way that can be applied to a large group is difficult and time consuming.

You overcome this problem by interrupting that forgetting process by practice-recall and self-testing. You do not review. You study by answering your review questions, themes, principles, problems, etc from memory, check to see if you were right, make adjustments depending on you were, and then test yourself again, the frequency of which depends on if you were able to answer it successfully or not.

Critical reflection of what you have learned is very useful for many reasons. One is that you have many preconceptions and misunderstandings and these can be corrected only by repeatedly being confronted by situations where your mental model fails. If you only read or hear fact A which contradicts your own idea B, you can recite A in a test but you will still hold on to your misconception B afterwards, i.e., you didn't actually learn anything. If on the other hand you are constantly faced with evidence against B, you may discard your old way of thinking and truly believe in A (but not necessarily - changing the overall model of thinking is very difficult).

 

[Piecake]

So I got the book and I noticed, OP, that you left out something important about spaced retrieval practice. It has to do with the duration between practices. Of course, I'm not going to explain what it is since that will defeat the purpose of this test.

I read through a quarter of the book so far and it's been great.

Woops, thank you providing feedback!

Actually, I did know that, since that is essential to the whole process, but it was one of those things that I assumed people 'knew' when they saw the term spaced-repetition testing, they would understand that the duration, depending on whether you are right or not, changes. More frequently if you struggle, less frequently if you do.

They actually do go over this problem in the book if you have gotten that far. I forget the term that they use, but basically that duration part became a part of my mental model, I assumed everyone knew that since it is fundamental to that mental model, and didnt bother explaining it. So, faulty thinking!

Either that, or I just plain forget to include it in that long write up

 

[Indicate]

Woops, thank you providing feedback!

Actually, I did know that, since that is essential to the whole process, but it was one of those things that I assumed people 'knew' when they saw the term spaced-repetition testing, they would understand that the duration, depending on whether you are right or not, changes. More frequently if you struggle, less frequently if you do.

They actually do go over this problem in the book if you have gotten that far. I forget the term that they use, but basically that duration part became a part of my mental model, I assumed everyone knew that since it is fundamental to that mental model, and didnt bother explaining it. So, faulty thinking!

Either that, or I just plain forget to include it in that long write up

Ok, no problem. I brought it up since they mentioned in the book that the practice/test should be at the point where a person is experiencing a little forgetfulness so similar to what you said. Not at a later time where a review would be necessary or before in a short period following the previous test.

 

[Piecake]

For those interested in a how to apply the science in Make it Stick to language learning, I would definitely recommend checking this out. I am currently reading this and all of the theories and rationale are based on that science. I obviously haven't found out for myself whether or not it works, but I am definitely going to try it because brute-force memorization of secondary languages has never worked out well for me in the past.

 

[Nocebo]

Nice thread!
I was able to add a new learning tool to my toolkit. I never really thought about deliberate and frequent self testing for some reason. Yesterday I started using it while studying Japanese. I'm reading a Japanese book about solar energy, so now I'm writing questions in Japanese to be able to learn and retain words I don't know and also to learn the concepts explained in the book.

Also interleaving is an interesting concept. It's something most people would do automatically from time to time but being aware of the effect and working it into a study plan so it's consistent will certainly increase effective study.

For those interested in a guided exploration of this subject: here is a free Learning How to Learn course.

Also got to relay enthusiasm on your endorsement of Thinking Fast and Slow, Piecake. A great, incisive book that dissects mental biases we may pick up on but have difficulty articulating. One of my favorites.

Thanks for the link. A lot of similarities with what's in the OP. The book the course is based on (A mind for numbers) has some interesting thoughts. I like how they highlight common pitfalls and how to deal with procrastination.

I'll certainly look into the books mentioned in this thread too.

 

[soco]

The single best class I had at university was the psychology course in Human Memory (and attention). The class was super interesting because the teacher was basically teaching students how to study and learn material, but so few of the students actually seemed to make that connection. (She explicitly spelled it out in several lectures, "if you're going to have this type of test, you should do this...")

I've not read this book so I don't know what it covers, but the class was especially interesting because it covered lots of different phenomenon that are common to people and how error-prone human memory really is.

 

[Lufiaddict]

If you are looking for a good spaced-repetition testing program, then I would check out Anki. It is limited to flashcards, but it is very effective if you want to learn vocabulary or a bunch of terms and definitions.

Mnemosyne is another good spaced repetition software. I've been using it daily for quite some time, for all kinds of stuff (mathematical proofs, song lyrics, ...)

Here's an example showing what a flashcard looks like in such programs: