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[An Corp]

After the FFXIV launch debacle, I pretty much gave up on the genre.

Theme park MMOs never had much appeal for me, so I never bothered with 2.0 or WoW.

FFXI, EQ and SWG were amazing in their day though.

SWG was such a unique game. Buggy or not, I loved what they did with the original concept and how difficult it was to become a Jedi.

Made by the same designer of UO, so no doubt it was an extension of ideas from UO. SWG had some of the best housing systems too.

 

[Lorianus]

Waste of time and money to try to compete with the oldies, the main userbase that you want for a new game is too invested in their 15+ year old accounts in their "main" game so it's pointless to try to poach them for the long term also the community aspect -> no one is switching games when all your friends stay behind.

 

[Idleyes]

Giving away all my gear and platinum to a newbie who was eternally grateful as I quit the game.

The second I did that in WoW it was like the server smelled blood. My whispers instantly filled with 'can I have your stuff?' like everyone became an estate lawyer all of a sudden.

 

[Svalr93]

I never got to play Galaxies I always wish I had.
I like that they had more social classes too like dancer and musician etc based on what I remember.

 

[BennyBlanco]

It's crazy how the most popular games in this genre are so old



RIP FFXI grandma

 

[Kumomeme]

also the devs clearly don't think everything is fine if you believe that you haven't watched a single live letter before.

i probably should worded my line properly. what i mean here is that if this prolonged, this is what i fear could happen. thats all. dont worry i never miss any live letter since i play the game. there a time i feels not gonna bother anymore due to how formulaic it been but still, out of habit and curiosity i still turn it on.

Everything you're saying is just bizarre honestly and completely out of touch with the community and the overall discourse.

i merely said based on what i observed and interact be it on the main subreddit, the discussion reddit, main forums, twitter, facebook groups, social media etc.

People are totally fine with criticism including on the main reddit sub, people aren't fine with bad faith criticism and just rants about wokeness endlessly.
Like people are still going on endlessly about Wuk and she has been so inoffensive in the post MSQ and is written out of the MSQ now, but people still harp on about her because it's like the one easy thing they can latch unto.
If you're judging the entire expansion and all of its content based on Wuk alone that's not good faith criticism.

I swear like 6 out of 10 or something people who talk about this game don't play it or haven't in years and just regurgitate what someone else who also don't or haven't said.

pretty sure i said nothing about woke or wuk lmao. not everything must has anything to do with it. toxic positivy issue is nothing new. it is exist even atleast since HW era and people pointed this out for atleast almost a decade. this is one of recent annoying pattern i notice within the community. everytime someone critisize something, somehow the other defensive party would relate and turn this into wuk lmao debate. honestly i hate to relate the character debate with woke stuff because whoever said that clearly miss out the real issue with the character in the game and merely just parroting the bandwagon hate on twitter. these people hate to see wuk lmao get critisized but and yet they are the one that often bring the character into discussion out of nowhere. i seen multiple times there lot of instance where people debate about something entirely different aspect in the MSQ and yet there is certain type of people would accuse that the other guy simply looking to excuse to hate on wuk lmao. there is way bigger important issue than these.

 

[Svalr93]

i probably should worded my line properly. what i mean here is that if this prolonged, this is what i fear could happen. thats all. dont worry i never miss any live letter since i play the game. there a time i feels not gonna bother anymore due to how formulaic it been but still, out of habit and curiosity i still turn it on.


i merely said based on what i observed and interact be it on the main subreddit, the discussion reddit, main forums, twitter, facebook groups, social media etc.


pretty sure i said nothing about woke or wuk lmao. not everything must has anything to do with it. toxic positivy issue is nothing new. it is exist even atleast since HW era and people pointed this out for atleast almost a decade. this is one of annoying pattern i notice within the community. everytime someone critisize something, somehow the other defensive party would relate and turn this into wuk lmao debate. honestly i hate to relate the character debate with woke stuff because whoever said that clearly miss out the real issue with the character in the game and merely just parroting the bandwagon hate on twitter. these people hate to see wuk lmao get critisized but and yet they are the one that often bring the character into discussion out of nowhere. i seen multiple times there lot of instance where people debate about something entirely different aspect in the MSQ and yet there is certain type of people would accuse that the other guy simply looking to excuse to hate on wuk lmao.

I cba with this argument anymore ngl we just disagree this will be my last comment on it tho.
But I really have no clue how you can be on the forums, reddit or social media in general and think there's some kind of toxic positivity going on, if anything you're far more likely to get shit on for saying anything positive about the game at all.
I've seen people criticize the game since forever, Stormblood especially was extremely hyped up with a big cliffhanger and everyone was hyped about '' Yda ''.
And when it didn't deliver the hate was immense I still remember it as worse than with Dawntrail which was more of a blank slate especially since this came off the back of Heavensward which had some of the worst content we've ever had ( the raid was literally so bad it almost killed the raiding scene ) and with a post MSQ that was mixed until the Shadowbringers payoff.
It's only remembered positively now in hindsight because of the post MSQ and patch content and I think Dawntrail will be the same it's really just Stormblood 2.0.
There was a ton of negativity surrounding the content in Heavensward even the MSQ got a lot of hate especially the post MSQ with the '' Warriors of Cringe '' and a certain character not being dead etc.

I remember the Grinding Gear guys and Mikepreach and some others too I think even Zepla and Pint has mentioned it too how they feel like there's so much negativity and people expecting and telling them that they '' should '' hate everything that it has made the game kinda miserable to stream ( which I guess is sorta the point at least for some people ).
Even with positive updates like finally updating hats for Hrothgar and Viera on the forums had some people make threads celebrating it and then the threads *immediately* filled with people ranting about how they shouldn't be happy but should be angry it didn't happen sooner.

I wasn't saying that you specifically ranted about wokeness just that it's a very common thing with discourse surrounding the game. DT got review bombed on day 1 before anyone could possibly even have finished or barely even started the MSQ like an hour after it went live, metacritic had to do a purge.
There were A LOT of people on Twitter who didn't play the game who went on a crusade against the game because of the VA.
That doesn't mean that Wuk can't be criticized she gets criticized all the time she's overall a pretty disliked character by most people it's not a very controversial take.
I think some people myself included are just exhausted by people talking about the expansion as if she's literally what defines ALL of it, especially now in the post MSQ when she has been way less offensive and now she's written out completely.
It really feels like grasping at straws sometimes to be negative when people keep bringing her up still and she's by far the thing people go on about the most in many cases the only thing.

In the end of the day I just fundamentally disagree with this idea you're '' not allowed '' to criticize the game and I think the whole toxic positivity thing is completely over-exaggerated and in many cases it's people self-victimizing themselves because they don't know how to give good faith feedback or criticism and get upset when confronted or even people just disagreeing with them at all.
I am not saying always but in a lot of cases when I see people complaining about toxic positivity it's coming from people who are being very vitriolic and then they can't handle even 1% of the same energy in return.
A lot of it is also just usual gamer culture stuff which every fandom engages in too but it gets framed as a FFXIV unique when it isn't especially when the game is at its height.
Try and criticize Nioh 3 right now and pay attention to the response.

I still remember FFXIV being the '' stupid weeb game '' and being judged all the time for playing FFXIV too and not WoW like none of that is new to me.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Dawntrail is just a bad expansion. Probably simultaneously the best(sales/playercount) and worst(Story/Content/Dated Systems). As a whole though XIV is a good game for new players. Plenty to do. However it just isn't fun anymore for some and it's time to move on for those people.

In my eyes as a player that started at the tail end of ARR with my hype of Dark Knight I've seen it peak with Stormblood and gradually decay over time. If they dropped the spreadsheet content formula, fixed their systems, stopped chasing after WoW and told great stories I wouldn't have much reason to look at XIV in absolute disgust.

It will always baffle me they have 2 great MMOs in FFXI and DQX to look up to and instead look at WoW.

However you have to admit that XIV is one of the reasons SE is still afloat with the profit it brings in. Though at the same time you'd think they would funnel that money back into the game...instead of failed projects.

----------------
But the true failing of modern MMOs is the worlds are static, unmoving and lifeless where everything stands still in time. The world isn't alive and is only set in motion when you log in. Older MMOs that thrived on their communities breathed life into these massive worlds where there was always something going on. Not so much these days.

The MMOs of today are nothing more then Online single player RPGs which at that point just play actual single player RPGs that aren't fleecing you like a sheep.

 

[Svalr93]

However you have to admit that XIV is one of the reasons SE is still afloat with the profit it brings in. Though at the same time you'd think they would funnel that money back into the game...instead of failed projects.

DT will have had the most amount of content out of any previous expansions and the quality of the MSQ in terms of production value has only increased even just recently in the MSQ they have showcased new tech in regards to animation which has received a ton of praise.
It's quite funny honestly looking back and how far it has come it's complete night an day.
They clearly are funneling more money into the game I think that criticism is very misplaced and kinda just objectively wrong honestly.

The failed projects thing is unfortunate, at the same time this is how it works with every game company where do you think Blizzard got the money for its other games?
WoW practically financed all of their IP's, in SE's case it sucks that a lot of the projects have been flops ( I still can't believe how bad Forspoken was..... ).
In the case of FFXIV it's not actually a money issue Yoshi P talked about this a while back, it's a qualification issue.
They have issues finding people who are qualified to work on a MMO ( which is very particular ) and who also speak Japanese, money just isn't an issue.
They have a relatively small pool of people to hire from and it has been very difficult to actually find people.

I really have no clue how you can say that it's the worst content, I mean it's subjective I suppose too.
But it has been pretty universally praised even in places that are otherwise doomer about the game the raid series in particular has been peak.
The main thing that has been received more mixed or even negatively is the South Horn which admittedly is pretty big content altho we still have the second part left which will hopefully be better.

They haven't really been chasing WoW since Heavensward, fortunately so because I really don't like what that game has become at all.
Still enjoy Classic tho but not Retail, Retail and FFXIV are fundamentally different in almost every way.

 

[Arsic]

This was a good watch that goes with this thread.

 

[Kumomeme]

I cba with this argument anymore ngl we just disagree this will be my last comment on it tho.
But I really have no clue how you can be on the forums, reddit or social media in general and think there's some kind of toxic positivity going on, if anything you're far more likely to get shit on for saying anything positive about the game at all.
I've seen people criticize the game since forever, Stormblood especially was extremely hyped up with a big cliffhanger and everyone was hyped about '' Yda ''.
And when it didn't deliver the hate was immense I still remember it as worse than with Dawntrail which was more of a blank slate especially since this came off the back of Heavensward which had some of the worst content we've ever had ( the raid was literally so bad it almost killed the raiding scene ) and with a post MSQ that was mixed until the Shadowbringers payoff.
It's only remembered positively now in hindsight because of the post MSQ and patch content and I think Dawntrail will be the same it's really just Stormblood 2.0.
There was a ton of negativity surrounding the content in Heavensward even the MSQ got a lot of hate especially the post MSQ with the '' Warriors of Cringe '' and a certain character not being dead etc.

I remember the Grinding Gear guys and Mikepreach and some others too I think even Zepla and Pint has mentioned it too how they feel like there's so much negativity and people expecting and telling them that they '' should '' hate everything that it has made the game kinda miserable to stream ( which I guess is sorta the point at least for some people ).
Even with positive updates like finally updating hats for Hrothgar and Viera on the forums had some people make threads celebrating it and then the threads *immediately* filled with people ranting about how they shouldn't be happy but should be angry it didn't happen sooner.

I wasn't saying that you specifically ranted about wokeness just that it's a very common thing with discourse surrounding the game. DT got review bombed on day 1 before anyone could possibly even have finished or barely even started the MSQ like an hour after it went live, metacritic had to do a purge.
There were A LOT of people on Twitter who didn't play the game who went on a crusade against the game because of the VA.
That doesn't mean that Wuk can't be criticized she gets criticized all the time she's overall a pretty disliked character by most people it's not a very controversial take.
I think some people myself included are just exhausted by people talking about the expansion as if she's literally what defines ALL of it, especially now in the post MSQ when she has been way less offensive and now she's written out completely.
It really feels like grasping at straws sometimes to be negative when people keep bringing her up still and she's by far the thing people go on about the most in many cases the only thing.

In the end of the day I just fundamentally disagree with this idea you're '' not allowed '' to criticize the game and I think the whole toxic positivity thing is completely over-exaggerated and in many cases it's people self-victimizing themselves because they don't know how to give good faith feedback or criticism and get upset when confronted or even people just disagreeing with them at all.
I am not saying always but in a lot of cases when I see people complaining about toxic positivity it's coming from people who are being very vitriolic and then they can't handle even 1% of the same energy in return.
A lot of it is also just usual gamer culture stuff which every fandom engages in too but it gets framed as a FFXIV unique when it isn't especially when the game is at its height.
Try and criticize Nioh 3 right now and pay attention to the response.

I still remember FFXIV being the '' stupid weeb game '' and being judged all the time for playing FFXIV too and not WoW like none of that is new to me.

honestly i never cared about streamer. another trend i notice some people also tend to bring streamers into the conversation. not everyone watch them and those critism not exist just because they said it. dont quickly lump someone with something else. what i said merely from what i see and interact on platform i mentioned i was before. i spend tons of time debate and even got harrased by these toxic posivity people for days on social media and reddit for example. i know what im saying. honestly thats my line. i has no clue how you can claim it is non existing or overblown. you even accused me of never watch any live letter or even out of touch with the community despite what i said is merely from what i observed and experienced. im not the first one pointed this too and im baffled if you never encountered it before for example. i never jumped accused you or anyone else here anything too.

in the end i has no issue if someone disagree and has different stance. everyone see things differently. but dont accuse something that i never did or put something in my mouth. like you out of nowhere bring woke and wuk lmao into the totally unrelated discussion. honestly your rant basically proving my point as whole.

there is nothing self victimize about the toxic posivity topic. heck it was the defenders that the one play victim instead as my per experience. . they often treat the people who critisize it has haters. it is never new things. like i mentioned before it is was there for more than half decade. to be honest i actually dont really agree with the toxic posivity from since beginning. but as time goes by, as per my observation and experience, i slowly started to see the issue. it is not that the claim is exeggerated. but more like as day to day come it become more apparent. i just pointed it out which is as my personal view, not a good health for the game in long run. thats all. the DT state just make both side more vocal which is no surprise.

 

[KenaiPhoenix]

Most of current "MMO" are just glorified matchmaking map.

When WoW came in it just standarized everything and changed the "virtual world" for "big multiplayer" and since then it has always been on decline.

Who is to blame? the players. there is no problem in having a theme park like WoW, the problem is that if any dev just try to do something different it was shamed for not being wow and so now many dont even try. My example will always be the 1.0 of FFXIV, yeah it was a lot of technical issues, but the core design was not that flawled. It was a different offer of an actual adventure and true RPGs, it was never needed to just trash everything and copy WoW. But Yoshida is seeing as a master of game design by just making everything easy so instant gratification dopamine can kick easier so player will pay the sub + microtransactions. But if you talk to people who trash on 1.0 will usually narrow down "it is not wow" (excluding the technical issues ofc, that were in fact solved before ARR, iirc)

To put it more simply: FFXIV Yoshida Edition is a worse game than the OG XIV, but it is a better product.

People like to trash on Dawntrail because all quest where "Talk to Wuk lamat", but XIV has ALWAYS be like this, they just rotate the character you speaked to. In fact, Dawntrail has more engagement/diverse content (outside dungeons, trials) than previous expansion like the "selling" minigames or the sneak one. Yeah, they where so painfully easy but as a player that beated Dawntrail on the first days... there where A LOT of people that struggle with these, which tell you how brain dead have Yoshida train their fans to be.

In the end, thankfully we have games like EvE and private servers like Horizon XI that still have that real MMORPG design.

 

[Pasta la Vista]

Most of current "MMO" are just glorified matchmaking map.

When WoW came in it just standarized everything and changed the "virtual world" for "big multiplayer" and since then it has always been on decline.

Who is to blame? the players. there is no problem in having a theme park like WoW, the problem is that if any dev just try to do something different it was shamed for not being wow and so now many dont even try. My example will always be the 1.0 of FFXIV, yeah it was a lot of technical issues, but the core design was not that flawled. It was a different offer of an actual adventure and true RPGs, it was never needed to just trash everything and copy WoW. But Yoshida is seeing as a master of game design by just making everything easy so instant gratification dopamine can kick easier so player will pay the sub + microtransactions. But if you talk to people who trash on 1.0 will usually narrow down "it is not wow" (excluding the technical issues ofc, that were in fact solved before ARR, iirc)

To put it more simply: FFXIV Yoshida Edition is a worse game than the OG XIV, but it is a better product.

People like to trash on Dawntrail because all quest where "Talk to Wuk lamat", but XIV has ALWAYS be like this, they just rotate the character you speaked to. In fact, Dawntrail has more engagement/diverse content (outside dungeons, trials) than previous expansion like the "selling" minigames or the sneak one. Yeah, they where so painfully easy but as a player that beated Dawntrail on the first days... there where A LOT of people that struggle with these, which tell you how brain dead have Yoshida train their fans to be.

In the end, thankfully we have games like EvE and private servers like Horizon XI that still have that real MMORPG design.

I got into Horizon XI a few years back and was hooked for about a year, got a couple 75 jobs up and had a great time with it. How active is it still? Did they ever get all the content from ToAU working properly?

 

[Svalr93]

Josh is great come to think of it I've never actually watched him stream before just his Youtube videos, gonna change that.
Especially since I've been looking for something more chill to watch recently.

there is nothing self victimize about the toxic posivity topic. heck it was the defenders that the one play victim instead as my per experience. .

This is about perspective.
But I dunno what you'd call situations like when someone makes a tweet about how exhausted they are with the constant negativity on Twitter and want to try and reduce it on their timeline.
And then LlamaTodd quote tweets her and goes on a giant rant about white knighting, toxic positivity and has a giant mental breakdown when people confronts him about it and calls people retarded and mentally ill for still playing the game.
I'd call that toxic negativity, same when people literally never have anything positive at all to say about the game and they say that everything about DT is the worst thing ever ( I srsly have no clue how you played previous expansions if you think the content is bad in DT like wtf? ).
Or when in my other example people are happy about an update like Hrothgar and Viera hats and people go into the thread and start spamming about how they should be angry not happy.

I think this goes beyond FFXIV even it's a trend I notice in general not just with streamers but also Youtube essayists etc too they are VERY opinionated and can often be very vitriolic about their opinions but when someone disagrees with them their ego can't handle it and they lash out.
They're very critical of other people and other peoples work but they can't handle even 1% of that same energy and criticism towards their own work.
I don't think you have to spend long on the forums and the discussion sub especially to see this in action.

I have more nuanced views on the game and I actually *gasp* play it so my opinions are actually informed too, when every single word that comes out of someones mouth about the game is negative and often even wrong or outdated and they can't ever give any credit when the devs do something positive ever I'd call that toxic negativity.
But no one seems to want to acknowledge that toxic negativity is a thing again I think this goes beyond FFXIV too in the MMO genre it's quite rampant honestly.

There's a lot of streamers who regurgitate this thing about toxic positivity too but then when they tried to stream the game they went into it with an extremely pessimistic and judgemental attitude about everything not even attempting to enjoy it, and then they act surprised when people didn't like it and they got a negative response.
I am not saying there aren't people who engage in what you could say is actual toxic positivity, but in the vast majority of cases I think it's people just getting the same energy back or thinking that disagreements with their negative takes = white knighting.

I mean if you want to hear an actual controversial opinion, I think FFXIV's combat is better than WoW's.
How do you think people respond to me when I have that opinion lmao? Difference is that I won't jump down someones throat for thinking WoW's combat is better.
And again try and criticize Nioh 3 in literally any way at all right now and watch people jump down your throat, this isn't a FFXIV thing but people frame it as a FFXIV thing because for some reason people are like a religious anti-FFXIV crusade.
The level of vitriol just isn't normal or really justified at all, and a lot of the things people complain about have already been addressed or are to be addressed later and we've known about it for like a year now.

I got into Horizon XI a few years back and was hooked for about a year, got a couple 75 jobs up and had a great time with it. How active is it still? Did they ever get all the content from ToAU working properly?

Wait wtf what is Horizon XI?
Is that official or a private server?
I've never seen that before lol, it kinda looks like XI+.

 

[An Corp]

This was a good watch that goes with this thread.

Good video! Just watched it.

He does a make good point about this genre that we need to stop looking forward to the 'new' when we have all of these older ones that are successful; it mirrors what other have said on here. And it goes with my point that finding that one or two games to stick with gives you a community of people that also enjoy that game.

Find you 'the one' mmorpg.

However it is discouraging that when we are promised a new mmorpg, lately the game releases in an overhyped state, doesn't release at all, or launches and then dies within a month (Ashes). That's what's frustrating about the state of MMO's. Feels predatory in every way.

 

[Pasta la Vista]

Josh is great come to think of it I've never actually watched him stream before just his Youtube videos, gonna change that.
Especially since I've been looking for something more chill to watch recently.



This is about perspective.
But I dunno what you'd call situations like when someone makes a tweet about how exhausted they are with the constant negativity on Twitter and want to try and reduce it on their timeline.
And then LlamaTodd quote tweets her and goes on a giant rant about white knighting, toxic positivity and has a giant mental breakdown when people confronts him about it and calls people retarded and mentally ill for still playing the game.
I'd call that toxic negativity, same when people literally never have anything positive at all to say about the game and they say that everything about DT is the worst thing ever ( I srsly have no clue how you played previous expansions if you think the content is bad in DT like wtf? ).
Or when in my other example people are happy about an update like Hrothgar and Viera hats and people go into the thread and start spamming about how they should be angry not happy.

I think this goes beyond FFXIV even it's a trend I notice in general not just with streamers but also Youtube essayists etc too they are VERY opinionated and can often be very vitriolic about their opinions but when someone disagrees with them their ego can't handle it and they lash out.
They're very critical of other people and other peoples work but they can't handle even 1% of that same energy and criticism towards their own work.
I don't think you have to spend long on the forums and the discussion sub especially to see this in action.

I have more nuanced views on the game and I actually *gasp* play it so my opinions are actually informed too, when every single word that comes out of someones mouth about the game is negative and often even wrong or outdated and they can't ever give any credit when the devs do something positive ever I'd call that toxic negativity.
But no one seems to want to acknowledge that toxic negativity is a thing again I think this goes beyond FFXIV too in the MMO genre it's quite rampant honestly.

There's a lot of streamers who regurgitate this thing about toxic positivity too but then when they tried to stream the game they went into it with an extremely pessimistic and judgemental attitude about everything not even attempting to enjoy it, and then they act surprised when people didn't like it and they got a negative response.
I am not saying there aren't people who engage in what you could say is actual toxic positivity, but in the vast majority of cases I think it's people just getting the same energy back or thinking that disagreements with their negative takes = white knighting.

I mean if you want to hear an actual controversial opinion, I think FFXIV's combat is better than WoW's.
How do you think people respond to me when I have that opinion lmao? Difference is that I won't jump down someones throat for thinking WoW's combat is better.
And again try and criticize Nioh 3 in literally any way at all right now and watch people jump down your throat, this isn't a FFXIV thing but people frame it as a FFXIV thing because for some reason people are like a religious anti-FFXIV crusade.
The level of vitriol just isn't normal or really justified at all, and a lot of the things people complain about have already been addressed or are to be addressed later and we've known about it for like a year now.



Wait wtf what is Horizon XI?
Is that official or a private server?
I've never seen that before lol, it kinda looks like XI+.

Private

 

[Svalr93]

I've been thinking about this lately but like do we call Diablo 4, Path of Exile 2 and Lost Ark MMO's too?
I think there's definitely a lot of games that would fall under the MMO category and are quite successful.

Traditional MMO's tho I think are almost a lost cause at this point.
As far as new MMO's goes I think '' MMO-likes '' are the future, games with MMO elements but primarily other genres.

 

[rodrigolfp]

 

[An Corp]

Most of current "MMO" are just glorified matchmaking map.

When WoW came in it just standarized everything and changed the "virtual world" for "big multiplayer" and since then it has always been on decline.

Who is to blame? the players. there is no problem in having a theme park like WoW, the problem is that if any dev just try to do something different it was shamed for not being wow and so now many dont even try.

100% what i was saying too. There used to be a standard in MMORPG's that all of the earlier games understood; create a believable virtual world. Even early WoW had it.

Eventually that went away and yeah here we are.

Maybe it's the players fault but also maybe it's the developers or the publishers. I suppose it could be our fault because we continued to support the games, but you have to remember that it was a long gradual change over decades to the point of where we sit now.

In the end, thankfully we have games like EvE and private servers like Horizon XI that still have that real MMORPG design.

It's interesting how well some games understand their audience. For private servers, they totally get it. Horizon XI, Outlands, Turtle WoW, Project 1999, etc… have a deep understanding of what the games should be and how they could be better than the live retail version.

Wait wtf what is Horizon XI?
Is that official or a private server?
I've never seen that before lol, it kinda looks like XI+.

It's private and from my understanding it's really good.

 

[Svalr93]

Actually speaking of FFXIV this came to mind, if you guys wanna see something funny and interesting a Chinese MMO called Ragnarok quite recently plagiarized one of the raid fights from FFXIV.

 

[samoilaaa]

this one looks like those old school mmos

 

[Svalr93]

this one looks like those old school mmos

How long until it's cancelled xD...

Jokes aside hope they find their niche audience and see some success.
I appreciate they're a new thing too and not pushing ai slop... They seem to at least actually care about what they're doing and put real effort into it.

 

[Days like these...]

All I know is I adored Star Wars Galaxies then Sony messed it up. I dabbled in WOW but pretty much quit MMORPG's after SWG

 

[Svalr93]

All I know is I adored Star Wars Galaxies then Sony messed it up. I dabbled in WOW but pretty much quit MMORPG's after SWG

Unfortunately I can't remember the video or channel but I remember watching was basically a documentary on SWG and how it all went wrong, and yeah the publisher forced the devs to make some really bad decisions.
One big one that comes to mind is making Jedi so easy to unlock, it used to be a huge investment and big journey very few people managed to accomplish and fairly community driven.
But then the publisher wanted everyone to become a Jedi and forced the devs to change it so now they were all over the place and not uncommon anymore which made them less appealing.

I feel like this is something that's missing a bit with MMO's nowadays, I just don't feel impressed when I see people with epic loot or a unique mount anymore because they're too accessible and easy to get.
To some extent maybe it's also because I am a hardcore raider so I am one of those people, but there's also just so much irl cash p2w behind the scenes too with carries and pretty blatant cheats with mods in some cases ( there's some truly wild straight up cheating people do in FFXIV with addons it gets REALLY bad I mean check this crap out ).

I dunno how to solve that really maybe that was just because MMO's was a new genre to most people too, but on the topic of SWG while I understand that everyone wanted to be a Jedi at the same time that made Jedi feel less cool too.
I think it'd be way cooler if they were less common and gave you more of a oh shit feeling when you saw one.
When everyone has something then no one does.

 

[iQuasarLV]

This was a good watch that goes with this thread.

@ 4:45 is a 'come to Jesus' talk of why this thread was created initially. People need to look backwards at what is already successful instead of empty promises of what may never come.

 

[An Corp]

@ 4:45 is a 'come to Jesus' talk of why this thread was created initially. People need to look backwards at what is already successful instead of empty promises of what may never come.

No doubt. Some of the best MMO's are the oldest ones. However, I even think this thread is still relevant even with some of the older games because they're constantly being updated in the case of the big one: WoW. The game is no longer the same game as the original game. It went so far from the original design and vision. So when I mean the state of MMO's it also applies to the older games that even lost touch with its initial player base (and arguably it's current player base).

Sure, all successful MMO's change; but some do it more gracefully than others and stay somewhat in touch with their player base.

 

[iQuasarLV]

No doubt. Some of the best MMO's are the oldest ones. However, I even think this thread is still relevant even with some of the older games because they're constantly being updated in the case of the big one: WoW. The game is no longer the same game as the original game. It went so far from the original design and vision. So when I mean the state of MMO's it also applies to the older games that even lost touch with its initial player base (and arguably it's current player base).

Sure, all successful MMO's change; but some do it more gracefully than others and stay somewhat in touch with their player base.

What I like about this video, as I am still finishing it up at work, is that Josh makes a lot of good points. Traditional MMOs are not marketable to the modern audience. They are fundamentally different beasts that cannot translate to contemporary tastes. That is why Gotcha games have superceded MMOs as the social money maker. MMOs are, just as Josh says it, social chat rooms with simplistic games attached to them. People play MMOs to socially connect not to min-max the leaderboards every few months. ALA aRPG and battleground shooters.

 

[Arsic]

What I like about this video, as I am still finishing it up at work, is that Josh makes a lot of good points. Traditional MMOs are not marketable to the modern audience. They are fundamentally different beasts that cannot translate to contemporary tastes. That is why Gotcha games have superceded MMOs as the social money maker. MMOs are, just as Josh says it, social chat rooms with simplistic games attached to them. People play MMOs to socially connect not to min-max the leaderboards every few months. ALA aRPG and battleground shooters.

Yes! He touches on some other great points. This point on particular is exactly why new MMOs are a lost cause for all involved.

-Players don't want spend money in MMOs
-Devs invest tons and over promise/try to add too much to a launch

The best path IMO is to invest in what already exists and update. Seriously a visual update to EQ, FFXI, PSO, Ultima Online etc with some small quality of life upgrades is all anyone needs to play those games again.

Diablo 2R is another game where if blizzard wanted to sell me loot tabs, or a battle pass with some cosmetics, I'd give them money to just add new items or skills to what's the.

PSO? Just add cosmetic skins and I'll pay to support it.

EQ/FFXI same thing I'll pay for the subscription for a new updated visual overhaul and throw some dollars your way for cosmetics.

We don't need new games - just pour love into what works.

 

[Svalr93]

If they streamlined progression in Lost Ark and got rid of the P2W I'd play the shit out of that game and I'd happily spend money on cosmetics.

 

[SaturnSaturn]

MMORPGS died the moment everything evolved into minmaxing, and youtube, discord, wikis emerged. There is no sense of adventure anymore, you can just go online and find answer to any question in the entire game pretty much at launch,

"if you dont build your character exactly this way you cant group with us". People never talk because they are to busy trying to grind the correct way or in a discord voice chat, streamlined solutions for everything (example runescapes auction house) ruins any type of social interaction and adventure

The problem with for example old school runescape now is that its been tarnished with a bunch of QOL updates (auction house, you dont lose items on death as they stay there for hours and other people cant pick them up), everything is way to easy and streamlined.

Only way to fix it is to ban wikis and every single video/guide about the game at once when it emerges so you play it blind and people are forced to socialize. Also ban QOL elements in the games.

When i finally realized that some years ago i started having a great time with mmos again, especially games i never played, i just never looked up a single thing and just played blind, i have a notebook that i write down things i find in the game its such a sense of adventure.

 

[Svalr93]

Uh, so apparently GW2's new fashion templates is removing functionality and making you pay extra to re-unlock it lmao.
This is kinda wild to me.



'' You actually have to spend more transmutation charges now... I dont have legendary gear, and in order to change the dyes of my armor I have to save it as a fashion template first. So now in order to change the color of my equipment in the 3rd tab, I would need to buy an extra fashion tab with gems, save my armor there by spending 10+ transmutation charges, then change the dyes... ''

Either these are some pretty absurd oversights or they just redesigned it to sell more transmutation charges on the gem store.

 

[Kumomeme]

But I dunno what you'd call situations like when someone makes a tweet about how exhausted they are with the constant negativity on Twitter and want to try and reduce it on their timeline

there is difference between simply exhausted or just simply want to maintain the appearance. however there a case both are overlapping each others.


i dont care much about streamers. particularly FFXIV. some of them can be bit entitled and their fans can be obnoxious.

Josh is great come to think of it I've never actually watched him stream before just his Youtube videos, gonna change that.
Especially since I've been looking for something more chill to watch recently.

you mean Josh Strife Hayes? he is the only exception to me. since he love to talk about MMO as general and do deep dive about the design and philosphy around it. sure there is stuff that people can disagree but as i am aware not many MMO streamers bother to talk about the genre as him.

 

[Svalr93]

there is difference between simply exhausted or just simply want to maintain the appearance. however there a case both are overlapping each others.


i dont care much about streamers. particularly FFXIV. some of them can be bit entitled and their fans can be obnoxious.



you mean Josh Strife Hayes? he is the only exception to me. since he love to talk about MMO as general and do deep dive about the design and philosphy around it. sure there is stuff that people can disagree but as i am aware not many MMO streamers bother to talk about the genre as him.

How is this particularly FFXIV tho, this is just a Twitch thing streamers aren't exactly known for their good behavior lmao like every biggest streamer is a stereotypical frat boy and twitch chat is what it is it's a meme at this point.
Again it's just this weird obsession with framing everything as a FFXIV thing when it's really just a gaming or even platform cultural thing..
I mean holy crap go back and listen to Mike's experience when he became a variety streamer and the shit he got from his own WoW viewers and the WoW forums ( and still do to this day ), he never said he was quitting permanently either just that he wanted to stream other things too.
According to him his FFXIV viewers had no issues with him being a variety streamer.
There's so much weird bitterness towards the game too this also happened with the WoW '' exodus '' I had to listen to so much ranting about WoW and its community just at random in XIV from people who moved over.
People act as if they can't just quit a game because they fell out of it or simply got burnt out no it has to be that the game is bad and that everyone who plays it is a demon etc etc.

No one is trying to maintain an appearance of perfection, and again I think if someone just says that they're exhausted by the constant negativity and want to distance themselves from it and someone quote tweets them and goes on an unhinged rage-filled rant about how they're not allowed.
Then it's the latter that is trying desperately to maintain an appearance of negativity.
The former is just making a personal decision about their own timeline for their own mental health, the latter is trying to control the public spectacle and narrative.
Same when the world first race was going recently on the Youtube and Twitch stream there were people in the comments just constantly spamming chat with '' game bad '' ( worded in a much worse way ) because they just can't let people have fun with it at all, same as with what I mentioned with streamers too who feel like streaming the game is miserable because their chats get brigaded by that too.

In the end of the day there's always a vocal group of people who will be unhinged and just scream down any criticms that's not a XIV thing tho again go and try to criticize Nioh 3 right now and see the reaction you get.
Try and say that you prefer anything about XIV over WoW and watch how people react especially on the WoW subreddit, on the XIV subreddit both the main one and discussion I see people comlepment WoW all the time I don't think I've ever seen the reverse.

 

[Svalr93]

In case anyone missed and is interested, pretty interesting interview honestly where they cover the topic of their audience aging and how classic and retail have such different audiences etc.

 

[Dis]

Hey NeoGaf — I can finally create a new thread, so here goes...

I've sunk thousands of hours into this genre over the years, mostly Ultima Online back in the day, and man, does the current state of these games irk me. After the absolute bloodbath of 2025 with New World getting gutted & Ashes of Creation imploding right after early access in early 2026, and a dozen other projects canned or dead on arrival, it's time for a real discussion: How did we go from groundbreaking virtual worlds to these soulless, monetized theme parks?

The graphical revolution kicked off in the mid-90s: Meridian 59 in 1996 was the first true 3D internet MMORPG, clunky but revolutionary with its persistent world and guilds battling for control. Then came Ultima Online in 1997, my personal GOAT. UO wasn't a "game" it was a living, breathing world. Player housing you built and decorated yourself, a skill-based system (no rigid classes), full-loot PvP where you could get murdered and looted in seconds, crafting everything from swords to ships with cannons, and even a hidden virtual ecology where deer ate grass, wolves hunted deer, and the ecosystem balanced itself dynamically. Cities were ruled by player guilds, economies rose and fell based on real supply/demand, and emergent stories happened every day thieves guilds, player-run shops, epic castle sieges. It felt alive, like logging into Britannia where shit was always happening, independent of quests.

Enter World of Warcraft in 2004... Blizzard polished it to perfection with accessible quests, instanced dungeons, flying mounts later on, and a theme park progression that hooked casuals by the millions (peaking at 12M+ subs by 2008 I believe). It exploded the genre and suddenly everyone knew what an MMO was. WoW's popularity killed the sandbox soul. Devs saw dollar signs and churned out WoW clone after clone with Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, Aion, Rift, etc. Even old games tried to patch in features to make it more similar to WoW. Most flopped hard because they copied the formula without innovating, leading to subscription fatigue.

Fast-forward to 2026 WoW, GW2 and FFXIV limp along as the old guard, but even they're showing cracks. New World? Dead content, abandoned by Amazon with servers dying soon. Ashes of Creation launched as a complete flop and somewhat scam. Shut down weeks after launch. The genre's shrunk from dominating charts to niche live-service slogs or mobile P2W garbage. Indies tease "sandbox revivals" on Kickstarter, but good luck funding against AAA caution.

We traded immersive virtual worlds for monetized slot machines. UO and EQ proved it was possible...

What about you? What's your most hours-sunk MMO and why? Did WoW ruin it for you too? Any hope for a true sandbox revival, or is the traditional genre basically on life support?

Yes! Spot on. WoW ruined mmorpg's for me for exactly this reason. L2 was that game for me where you just lived your story. No handholding no quests to exp. Just you figuring out where to go by asking questions to players and what you need.
Carving out your own path.

This + open world pvp + open world dungeons/raid bosses.
Where clans could pvp against another clan while they where downing a raid boss.
Or small skirmishes or just trolling.
Was the best online mmorpg expierence.

The whole instance thing undermines the genre. You dont end up forming your own party and bonding with other players travelling the open world together to the dungeon. You just stand somewhere alone and waiting in line for a seperate dungeon in dungeon finder. 0 interaction with the open world.
Almost 0 interaction with people.

And one more thing
The questing is horrendous way to exp. Constantly having to report. Constantly having to follow an arrow. No exploring and grinding/building your character. Only obeying orders.. how is this fun??

I want to engage with the enviroment and the players. Not with NPC's and a dungeon finder menu..

 

[YeulEmeralda]

Nothing beats the dedication needed for Everquest 1. Waking up after patches or getting the alert to login after an emergency reset. Rushing to contested spawns or zones against guilds.40-60 man raids, sometimes requiring camping out over 2 days or logging off to continue the raid the next day. Nevermind camping rare spawns, you would hate to miss that spawn or rare drop, could stay in the same spot for 12 hours.

Gate locked things that required rare spawns and keys, that sometimes were limited. or once a week/reset. Some guilds killed specific things to halt other guild progress. It was chaos and required diplomacy at times, or just pure dedicated numbers.

Who can forget wiping out in the plane of fear with 100's of corpses in the zone causing issues or crashing. Corpse recovery could last hours.

No one has time for this now, imagine getting 50-60 people together now.

There are always new 14 year olds.

 

[Svalr93]

There are always new 14 year olds.

Yeah but they all play Fortnite now .
I guess if they really want to make a new successful MMO just make it a Fortnite MMO.

 

[Svalr93]

Gonna download SWG Legends ( private server ) and finally get to live out my childhood dream of playing the game xD.

This was the video I referenced before btw, .
I think it's a pretty good case study of the whole thing with how nothing feels unique anymore in MMO's, when everyone has something no one does.